Playing beyond it's price point

**bart** · January 6, 2019, 04:56 PM

Another device that draws my attention is the iFi Audio Pro iDSD.
It gets raving reviews in Stereophile, Hifi Critic (a magazine that I trust, as it doesn't need ads to survive), Hifi News.
Stereo (Germany) is less enthusiastic but still gives a solid 88%.

Any first hand experiences here?

**Randy Myers** · January 7, 2019, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by Kingrex

Cord or not, it's amazing to put a $3k dac as a toss up to a $34k.

There is a lot of T&A talk as well as Ygg talk. Is there any good head to head on the two.

Hey Rex, I did find one pretty good comparison between the Yggy and the T+A... The reviewer was actually comparing with the Benchmark, but did a decent, short comparison with the Yggy.

"Schiit’s Yggdrasil jumped in with a more competitive sound but a feature set well short of the T+A’s or the Benchmark’s. The Yggy needs a preamp -- it has no volume control -- can’t process DSD, and offers no alternative digital filters beyond their custom one. I restored to the system my Hegel P20 preamp, set the output of the DAC 8 DSD to line level, and listened for differences. The ultimate resolution of the DAC 8 was reduced by the additional analog processing, with now a slight softness to the sound. The Schiit provided a much more musical sound than the Benchmark, sounding far more like the T+A with Bez2 filter engaged. The Yggy had a wider but shallower soundstage than the DAC 8 DSD, Harry’s voice sounding a bit narrower and set farther back in the soundstage, making the Schiit sound more laid-back in comparison. Female voices sounded similar through the Schiit and T+A, and both DACs produced well-defined, three-dimensional central aural images. Both also offered similar levels of bass impact, the Yggy more than able to keep up with the T+A’s pace and timing. The clarity of both DACs’ sound was high, as was their sense of musicality. Still, the Schiit offers no choice of digital filter and can’t play DSD, and requires a traditional preamp to remain in the signal chain. With the almost-twice-as-expensive T+A DAC, you get what you pay for."

He seems to like it better than the Benchmark but felt it feel short of the T+A from what I read in the review. Here is the full review:

https://www.soundstagehifi.com/index...alog-converter

**daveoo** · January 7, 2019, 07:16 PM

I really liked the Virtue Audio Tripath amps. Did well with my Piega TC 70x coax speakers. A little rolled off in the highs, smooth midrange a bit thick and fine bass with control.

**joeinid** · January 7, 2019, 07:19 PM

Welcome to the forum Dave, thank you for joining.

**daveoo** · January 7, 2019, 07:26 PM

Thanks for the welcome. I think I joined months ago, but just woke up today. Time is scarce to get too involved in forums, but I joined out of respect for Mike. He aided me in elevating my system last year.

Seems like a fun/nice place here.

**kzhtoo** · January 8, 2019, 12:36 AM

Comparing Yggy with DAC8 has to go beyond DAC only comparison. What I mean by that is the best configuration for DAC8 requires HQ Player upsampling to DSD512, which means a Windows PC that isn’t designed for music playback. To those us who has ever switched from PC/Mac to a dedicated music server (Aurender, Lumin, Melco, Innous, etc), we know the improvement isn’t subtle and it’s a whole different world altogether. So, unless DAC8 is fed by a dedicated music server that can upsample everything to DSD512, I don’t see how DAC8 could become attractive to those who use dedicated music servers.

**Randy Myers** · January 8, 2019, 11:24 AM

One thing that I believe you are missing is that a Windows machine can definitely be built and configured to work as an amazing music server. I would put my configuration against most any dedicated music servers out there (unless you are going many times higher in pricing) and I am very confident that mine would come out the winner. After all, dedicated music servers are in essence computers. Many times using the identical parts internally, but many times using inferior parts, processors, etc. And yes, I am familiar and have worked with several music servers and in my view they were usually much inferior to my Windows PC, in almost every way.

I would also say that it also depends on what software you are using on your dedicated music server. Many now work perfectly fine with Roon, and even though I think Roon with HQPlayer is better, Roon can in fact up-sample. Also, most every music server can do DSD at least at some level. You do not have to go all the way to DSD512 to appreciate how good the dedicated 1-bit processor is.

A friend of mine, who writes for Stereophile, did a review of the T+A DAC 8 DSD. He uses a Meridian server that does not even do DSD. He still rated the T+A as one of the best DACs he has ever tried. He even had a couple club members try the DAC to confirm what he was hearing.

The review I linked above that compared against the Yaggy was comparing in PCM and still rated it equivalent if not better than the Yaggy, but with all of the other capabilities was worth a ton more, in their view.

**Kingrex** · January 8, 2019, 12:48 PM

You know Randy, it's funny how so many people forget every Aurender, Lumn, Linn, Sonor, antipodes etc is just a computer. It's like people think there's point to point wiring and a tube in there. Every single one is a case, PCB, CPU, RAM, PS and software. And just because most run Linux does not mean that OS is superior. Alrainbow has talked extensively about the sound of OS. Maybe in the end the OS sound comes down to preference, but my understanding is most producers use Linux as it's easy. You don't have to fight the MS software, you dont need AO. You dont have customers complaining the OS updated and nothing works.

I have used PC based machines and find they sound great. I have also looked on line at the multitude of images of the internals of many of the most popular brands. Most are built quite well, but are still always a computer .

**Randy Myers** · January 8, 2019, 01:39 PM

I agree in that no matter what OS is on the machine they are all still using the same hardware.

It is the same as people saying that you can not get as good of sound out of USB as some other ports. To this I also say balderdash. I use AudioQuest Coffee USB cables, a W4S Recovery (actually the first one off their assembly line) and an Ipower linear power supply and it sounds amazing!

**Kingrex** · January 8, 2019, 02:16 PM

I'm also USB. It sounds great. AES is suppose to be good to. So is I2S if done right.

I'm thinking of getting Adrian's Linear Soulution Audiophile Streamer. While I don't know that it plays beyond its price point. It plays solidly to it. Austionpop reviewed it in Audiophile Style. I also gave my impression of it there too. It is appearing to be a benefit to separate the load amoungst devices for optimum digital playback.

People seem to get tied up on the DAC. They forget everything that feeds the DAC. I still take issue with the Roon NUC. It's a great multi purpose device, but I don't think it is the best as far as performance. Now maybe there is something special about the Select II with the streaming card installed that negates everything in front of it. However, the rest of us don't have that quality of DAC and our equipment is affected by the source. IMO. I even asked Adrian if I had wasted money on a good server to feed his Audiophile Streamer. He said absolutely not. The better the source, the better the performance from the streamer. It all matters. FYI, there are builders taking the NUC and altering the PS. I have not heard to what affect at this time, but there is a push to better the basic box.

**Mr Peabody** · January 8, 2019, 03:31 PM

Are you speaking of a dedicated computer with nothing to do but play music? I'm not even sure that can even be done with a computer as it would look for updates etc. and always have some background jobs going on.

Wouldn't a stand alone streamer have an advantage with only having one dedicated job to do and being specialized to do that one job?

Or, maybe streamers are just for guys like me that really don't want to have anything to do with a computer while listening to music. I suppose there's an argument whether using my IPhone and streamer is a computer but it's not, not in the same way.

**Randy Myers** · January 8, 2019, 03:39 PM

I dedicate a computer to my music... it is a music server in every way in my view. I have turned off unnecessary services and have very limited software installed. I do allow for updates because the machine has to be on the Internet for Roon updates. The machine does nothing but server my music files and therefore does not need extra software installed... I do not even connect a monitor, keyboard, or mouse to the machine. I use Remote Desktop from my controller machines or my laptop to load new music or if I ever (rarely) need to do any maintenance on the machine.

The way I figure it a true powerful computer you might want to compare to a Ferrari while many pre-built music servers have the power of a Pinto, in a comparison. Even the few extra clock cycles that the machine might need to perform is virtually nothing compared to extra power in the machine. I have seen many custom built music servers with a fraction of the power but at many times higher price tags.

**kzhtoo** · January 8, 2019, 04:09 PM

Seems like a sensitive topic. Not interested in participating with the way it’s going. Keep doing what you’re doing, it’s all good.

**Kingrex** · January 8, 2019, 04:42 PM

Mine is a Pinto. Very little power. 6 watts. It is specifically designed to play music. It has 5 linear PS in it. The MB and SSD are on vibration isolation stands. There are multiple steel walls dividing the sections of the machine keeping noise pollution from contaminating adjacent sections. Even the case metal was finished with a material that provides its own level of isolation. AO keeps if from updating windows. If I want to update software such as Roon I open my Roon account and tell it to update. It came with a Linux OS but I had it changed out to MS. I like the sound better. I think. I may drop a new MSATA OS into the motherboard and change out the SSD to see how the performance compares. The original Linux OS was running JRiver. I did not like that configuration. I did like the HQPlayer on the Linux OS, but I was not able to get Roon working right. I hear Roon does not like to play friendly in server mode when one machine is Linux and the controlling machine is MS. They failed to hold a connection. Linux is also an unfriendly environment to work in unless you have a software background. MS is much easier for me to configure the communication on the network. You know what I really like about my machine, it not only sounds amazing, but I can also play Spotify, Pandora, Primephonic, Deezer or any radio station I want to listen too. I have 0 limitations. For the $4,500 I spent, I am very happy. When I sent it for an upgrade and installed my Asus laptop, you really heard the loss of musicality. I was surprised at the bass from the Asus, but the midrange and highs were flat and uninviting. Just dull and lacking magic.

Even with all that goes into my server, the Linear Solution "Endpoint" stepped up the game. Better definition of instruments with a more clean intelligible high end. Bass was pretty much unchanged. That was with the Wall Wort PS. I have a linear PS to use and it is suppose to improve the performance even more.

My machine is not designed to upsample. 6 watts in not enough power to compute properly. I have to do some more research, to fully understand Roon. I think in server mode the upsampling would happen in my office PC that is controlling the core. IF that is the case, then upsamping would be no problem. For me it's not really an issue. I only have PCM 24/192 on my DAC. Hence I like Qobuz.

You know whats really kind of funny. All the fiddling on the digital front end at some point becomes minute improvements. It's damb fine now and hard to make better. I have been offered a large upgrade to my preamp for $2,000. The last time I upgraded the preamp for $700 my jaw hit the floor. It was that big a gain. Why I "F" around with miniscule improvements for $1000 to $2000 and don't get the preamp modded. Sometimes I just don't get myself.

**Mike** · January 8, 2019, 04:43 PM

T+A Criterion 2200’s

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**jdandy** · January 8, 2019, 04:51 PM

Everything is the best until you experience something better.

**Kingrex** · January 8, 2019, 04:52 PM

I heard the Dynaudio the other day. For $7,500, very nice. I really don't know what speakers play beyond a price point. Many new ones today sound great when configured correct. They are doing a better and better job of getting the box out of the sound.

I tried to look up some info on the

T+A Criterion 2200’s. I don't get all the guys posting on YouTube. Playing a song then saying wow, wasn't that great. Sure it sounded great through my Panasonic tv speakers. I love the OCD Hifi guy, but he does the same thing all the time. Plays comparisons between amps, speakers what have you. Can anyone here actually get any sort of taste for what anything sounds like through YouTube?

**Paul** · January 8, 2019, 05:05 PM

Any NAD integrated amps.

**Randy Myers** · January 8, 2019, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by Kingrex

Mine is a Pinto. Very little power. 6 watts. It is specifically designed to play music. It has 5 linear PS in it. The MB and SSD are on vibration isolation stands. There are multiple steel walls dividing the sections of the machine keeping noise pollution from contaminating adjacent sections. Even the case metal was finished with a material that provides its own level of isolation. AO keeps if from updating windows. If I want to update software such as Roon I open my Roon account and tell it to update. It came with a Linux OS but I had it changed out to MS. I like the sound better. I think. I may drop a new MSATA OS into the motherboard and change out the SSD to see how the performance compares. The original Linux OS was running JRiver. I did not like that configuration. I did like the HQPlayer on the Linux OS, but I was not able to get Roon working right. I hear Roon does not like to play friendly in server mode when one machine is Linux and the controlling machine is MS. They failed to hold a connection. Linux is also an unfriendly environment to work in unless you have a software background. MS is much easier for me to configure the communication on the network. You know what I really like about my machine, it not only sounds amazing, but I can also play Spotify, Pandora, Primephonic, Deezer or any radio station I want to listen too. I have 0 limitations. For the $4,500 I spent, I am very happy. When I sent it for an upgrade and installed my Asus laptop, you really heard the loss of musicality. I was surprised at the bass from the Asus, but the midrange and highs were flat and uninviting. Just dull and lacking magic.

Even with all that goes into my server, the Linear Solution "Endpoint" stepped up the game. Better definition of instruments with a more clean intelligible high end. Bass was pretty much unchanged. That was with the Wall Wort PS. I have a linear PS to use and it is suppose to improve the performance even more.

My machine is not designed to upsample. 6 watts in not enough power to compute properly. I have to do some more research, to fully understand Roon. I think in server mode the upsampling would happen in my office PC that is controlling the core. IF that is the case, then upsamping would be no problem. For me it's not really an issue. I only have PCM 24/192 on my DAC. Hence I like Qobuz.

You know whats really kind of funny. All the fiddling on the digital front end at some point becomes minute improvements. It's damb fine now and hard to make better. I have been offered a large upgrade to my preamp for $2,000. The last time I upgraded the preamp for $700 my jaw hit the floor. It was that big a gain. Why I "F" around with miniscule improvements for $1000 to $2000 and don't get the preamp modded. Sometimes I just don't get myself.

Well Rex, it sounds like your computer is a whole lot more than a Pinto

(remember the Ford Pinto is my default junk car

for analogies)... sounds like you have a machine that would be closer to a Ferrari

.... not sure what you mean by 6 watts though... I was referring to computer power, CPU, RAM, Mobo, SSD, etc.

I have never seen T+A speakers. They look nice, and I have always enjoyed the couple German speakers I have heard... but no opinion on theirs... except that T+A make fantastic gear...

**Randy Myers** · January 8, 2019, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by kzhtoo

Seems like a sensitive topic. Not interested in participating with the way it’s going. Keep doing what you’re doing, it’s all good.

It is just a friendly discussion. No one is being rude or disrespectful to other members. People are simply offering their opinions and experiences.

Enjoy your music and system how it best suits you... that is really all that matters.

**Spock** · January 8, 2019, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by jdandy

Everything is the best until you experience something better.

Yes!
And sometimes, we only know what we were missing when we started to have it.

**Sean** · January 8, 2019, 06:29 PM

How true. Everything in audio (and life) is comparative.

Originally Posted by jdandy

Everything is the best until you experience something better.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**Sean** · January 8, 2019, 06:46 PM

I always thought the Dynaudio Focus 160’s sounded pretty darn good for the money. The fit and finish was also top notch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**audio.bill** · January 8, 2019, 07:42 PM

deleted - found new thread on the T+A Criterion S 2200 CTL speakers.

**Kingrex** · January 8, 2019, 07:55 PM

Jdandy just lays it down. You can't refute that.

**nbrowser** · January 11, 2019, 02:08 AM

I've found something can play beyond it's price point...if you hold out and wait for something to go on a deeply cut sale price. I've managed to pick up some items like this where it's nearly half off. Helps to grab something for a discount when you can.

**wisnon** · January 11, 2019, 08:31 AM

What I paid for my Heil Kithara speaker was a veritable steal! Not the best looker, but that big Heil driver is pure voodoo. Nothing better for voice or piano transients to me. Weakest link would be bass and the floorplate and tightened woofer suspension cured that.

The Rowen amps for the price are stunning in their ability to deliver unclippable power. Imagine monoblocs for $2600 a pair that can deliver 65wpc into 8 ohms and 1,300W music power into 0.5ohms! Coming to America soon too.

As for Dac, the Lampi Pacific even at that premium price is a relative bargain. With the right tubes...untouchable for me!

**wisnon** · January 11, 2019, 08:34 AM

Having said that, lots of great gear out there and system and room synergies matter. Just be mindful that power corrupts and absolute power...when you hear it, you cant go back to flea watts. LoL.

I had some demo amps and was running peak 4,000 wpc into 0.5ohms for 2 pairs of speakers in parallel. Dynamics were off the chain!

I also got to hear the Von Schweikert E3 Mk2 over the holidays and I must say for $8K, they were kicking butt and taking names!

**Randy Myers** · January 11, 2019, 09:12 AM

I am hoping and believe that the Audio Mirror pre-amp might very well be the best bargain I have ever found. It arrives today (fingers crossed). The Audio Mirror 45 watt mono block SET amplifiers are one of the finest bargains I have ever heard (TAS agrees and stated at twice their price they would be a deal). Vlad stated to me that the pre is a perfect match, and as a true DHT pre at under a grand.... nice....

**Kingrex** · January 11, 2019, 12:56 PM

All in Randy.

**Kingrex** · January 11, 2019, 12:58 PM

I heard there is a used unit for sale from the manufacturer.

**Dizzie** · January 11, 2019, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

I am hoping and believe that the Audio Mirror pre-amp might very well be the best bargain I have ever found. It arrives today (fingers crossed). The Audio Mirror 45 watt mono block SET amplifiers are one of the finest bargains I have ever heard (TAS agrees and stated at twice their price they would be a deal). Vlad stated to me that the pre is a perfect match, and as a true DHT pre at under a grand.... nice....

I did not find the preamp on the Audio Mirror website.

Never mind. I see the other thread on the preamp.

Thread: Playing beyond it's price point

Re: Playing beyond it's price point

Re: Playing beyond it's price point

Re: Playing beyond it's price point

Re: Playing beyond it's price point

Re: Playing beyond it's price point