MSB Reference DAC

[Kingrex]

Saw that. Reading now. Also want to read about the Esoteric. A friend of mine who knows his digital stuff is into Esoteric. Kind of a toss up with pricing being equal.
I was just writing to a dealer who wants to sell me a new TT. My digital as is really made me step away from Vinyl. Vinyl does not sound good. It's really looking like I have to put well over $10K into a table and arm to get me back in the park with digital. Then I will need to get a $10k, or more like $20K phono pre to outpace the digital. To be fair, I have about $9k tied up in Digital. So $ for $.... Take your pick. In my house, digital is the way to go. It's so flexible and sounds as good as I need.

Maybe in 3 to 5 years someone will be selling a Ref MSB for a price affordable to me. Then I can sip some of that Tea. If that happens, I cant see ever going back to vinyl. Not to play the 30 records I really like. Half of which are available streaming and sound better as such than on Vinyl at my place.

Just received my January 2019 TAS. The MSB Reference DAC, is the TAS Product of the Year for 2018!

[Ctsooner]

Guys, as much as I love digital with the new Laufer Teknik DAC and server, you can get a Basis entry level TT and arm with a decent phono stage and any of the 1k cartridges and have sound that is outstanding. It's still better than digital, but a pain to play. I have MS and can't do the TT thing anymore, so for me it's digital.

[Kingrex]

Guys, as much as I love digital with the new Laufer Teknik DAC and server, you can get a Basis entry level TT and arm with a decent phono stage and any of the 1k cartridges and have sound that is outstanding. It's still better than digital, but a pain to play. I have MS and can't do the TT thing anymore, so for me it's digital.

What ever.

[Ctsooner]

What ever.

Just an opinion. How sure what I get a whatever. If you think digital is better than good analog, then that's fine too.

[Kingrex]

Just an opinion. How sure what I get a whatever. If you think digital is better than good analog, then that's fine too.

It's just a worn out contentious statement. No one wants to have that conversation anymore. If you like digital such as I do, and many others, you work with your digital and make it sound good. If you like analog, focus on that. Whichever you put your effort and your ear into is going to end up sounding very good. Whichever you plop on the table and for the most part ignore will respond in kind.

[Ctsooner]

It's just a worn out contentious statement. No one wants to have that conversation anymore. If you like digital such as I do, and many others, you work with your digital and make it sound good. If you like analog, focus on that. Whichever you put your effort and your ear into is going to end up sounding very good. Whichever you plop on the table and for the most part ignore will respond in kind.

We will need to agree to disagree then. I made the statement that good analog is still better. I have spent a fair amount on my digital and it sounds better than most digital than I've heard and I've heard much of the best digital out there.

That doesn't mean that vinyl and or reel to reel isn't as good or better. They are all different and have strengths and weaknesses. If you don't have to focus on only one, then why would you? Many of us have a lot of vinyl, CD's some reel's adn now downloads. I own around 1000 album's, a couple of thousand CD's that I still need to rip (have about 3T in my Memory Player so far and will have around 30T when done, so yes I'm fully committed to digital like many others). I'm bummed that I can't do analog anymore as I enjoyed the process. I never plopped anything on my TT in my life.

If you took what I said as contentious, I feel badly for you. As for wanting to have that conversation, that's just you and a few others as many of us still enjoy discussing intelligently how great some of the new upscale digital is doing and where it's headed. There is a reason that conversation is still being had.

[Ritmo]

Guys,...

I have MS and can't do the TT thing anymore, so for me it's digital.

Glad you are enjoying music, regardless of format.

[Ctsooner]

Glad you are enjoying music, regardless of format.

Thanks and you bet.

[Kingrex]

[QUOTE=Ctsooner;256660]We will need to agree to disagree then. I made the statement that good analog is still better. I have spent a fair amount on my digital and it sounds better than most digital than I've heard and I've heard much of the best digital out there.

That doesn't mean that vinyl and or reel to reel isn't as good or better. They are all different and have strengths and weaknesses. If you don't have to focus on only one, then why would you? Many of us have a lot of vinyl, CD's some reel's adn now downloads. I own around 1000 album's, a couple of thousand CD's that I still need to rip (have about 3T in my Memory Player so far and will have around 30T when done, so yes I'm fully committed to digital like many others). I'm bummed that I can't do analog anymore as I enjoyed the process. I never plopped anything on my TT in my life.

If you took what I said as contentious, I feel badly for you. As for wanting to have that conversation, that's just you and a few others as many of us still enjoy discussing intelligently how great some of the new upscale digital is doing and where it's headed. There is a reason that conversation is still being had.[/QUOT

Vinyl vs digital is an old worn out topic. If you want that negativity in your life??????? I don't.

[Ctsooner]

[QUOTE=Kingrex;256664]

We will need to agree to disagree then. I made the statement that good analog is still better. I have spent a fair amount on my digital and it sounds better than most digital than I've heard and I've heard much of the best digital out there.

That doesn't mean that vinyl and or reel to reel isn't as good or better. They are all different and have strengths and weaknesses. If you don't have to focus on only one, then why would you? Many of us have a lot of vinyl, CD's some reel's adn now downloads. I own around 1000 album's, a couple of thousand CD's that I still need to rip (have about 3T in my Memory Player so far and will have around 30T when done, so yes I'm fully committed to digital like many others). I'm bummed that I can't do analog anymore as I enjoyed the process. I never plopped anything on my TT in my life.

If you took what I said as contentious, I feel badly for you. As for wanting to have that conversation, that's just you and a few others as many of us still enjoy discussing intelligently how great some of the new upscale digital is doing and where it's headed. There is a reason that conversation is still being had.[/QUOT

Vinyl vs digital is an old worn out topic. If you want that negativity in your life??????? I don't.

I took your post as coming off as you are right and the rest of us are wrong. No need for you to feel anything for me, thanks. It's still a conversation to have. If you feel it's negative, that's your issue obviously. Many of us have plenty of intelligent conversation about all mediums and how great all new products are (or aren't in so many cases).

Is the vinyl vs digital topic old and worn out because you say it is? You say it's negative, but that's pretty closed minded to many of us. I'm blessed as Mike and those who know me know. I get to hear much of higher end digital that is on the market now as well as many prototypes of gear that is coming out. I do focus much more on digital as I can't do analog anymore, but I keep an open mind about gear...no matter the medium. If you call that negative, that's too bad.

Let's move on to what the original topic is. I tried earlier tot just move past all of this by saying we will agree to disagree. Pete

[Alpinist]

I also have no interest in the digital vs. vinyl vs. tape discussion. Everyone has their favorites and supporting opinions. I certainly know I do. What interests me more is what steps you’ve taken to optimize the format(s) you’ve chosen. For me, it’s been the optimization of a dedicated computer network that brings it to the point where it is equal to or better sonically than a top transport. Am I there yet? Stay tuned.

Ken

[kzhtoo]

For me, it’s been the optimization of a dedicated computer network that brings it to the point where it is equal to or better sonically than a top transport. Am I there yet? Stay tuned.

Ken

I for one will be interested to hear what you did to your network and the improvement that you experience, Ken.

[BlueFox]

I got rid of vinyl in the 80s after getting a CD player. I just got fed up with trying to play one or two good songs on an album. What a PITA.

I am sure the MSB is a great DAC. However, I am in love with the sound of my Lumin S1. So much so I am actually content with my system at this point.

[cmarin]

I for one will be interested to hear what you did to your network and the improvement that you experience, Ken.

Me too.



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[cmarin]

I also have no interest in the digital vs. vinyl vs. tape discussion. Everyone has their favorites and supporting opinions. I certainly know I do. What interests me more is what steps you’ve taken to optimize the format(s) you’ve chosen. For me, it’s been the optimization of a dedicated computer network that brings it to the point where it is equal to or better sonically than a top transport. Am I there yet? Stay tuned.

Ken

Ken,

Which transports do you consider to be at the top for your comparison?



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[Kuoppis]

I also have no interest in the digital vs. vinyl vs. tape discussion. Everyone has their favorites and supporting opinions. I certainly know I do. What interests me more is what steps you’ve taken to optimize the format(s) you’ve chosen. For me, it’s been the optimization of a dedicated computer network that brings it to the point where it is equal to or better sonically than a top transport. Am I there yet? Stay tuned.

Ken

Ditto. I do have a great digital system, and a great analogue one, and will continue to enjoy both. It does not necessarily have to be red or white, no?

But if someone else prefers to focus on only either one, I do not have any objection to that, and do not feel any hostility against such a choice.

On the network side, I added an EMO network filter, but will still have to gauge the impact, as there now is a short piece of patch cable coming from the router. I will be getting an additional AQ Vodka tomorrow to replace it, so let’s see. What is probably the bigger impact, is setting up a dedicated network for audio, and updating the whole system to gigabit level.


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[KeithR]

I got rid of vinyl in the 80s after getting a CD player. I just got fed up with trying to play one or two good songs on an album. What a PITA.

I am sure the MSB is a great DAC. However, I am in love with the sound of my Lumin S1. So much so I am actually content with my system at this point.

hint- don't listen to an MSB

[Kingrex]

I'm torn about filters. I'm also confused talking about networks when people are talking about a DAC as almost completely immune to anything you feed it with the network card installed. You know, my prior post on an improved source.
I have been told a network isolator like an EMO will degrade my sound as I have a quality purpose designed audio switch with linear PS. My switch made a very apparent sonic improvement. Especially when it came to streaming. There is no down side.$750.

I'm curious about erhernet cables. I tried to start a thread to learn more but it has no traction. I was kind of gleaning, the last cable feeding the network streamer or network card is the biggest bang for buck.

[Ctsooner]

I've worked on optimizing what I feed my digital. I have had a top optical isolation system in and it worked great. Lowered the noise floor considerably. Allowed more micro and macro detail and gave it more emotion. It didn't change the sound signature at all. That was a positive as too many devices will do that from my experience.

I upgraded my internet service (I only use Tidal streaming at times and that's the only reason I am ever online with my streamer/server) to get mega fast internet service. I don't think this makes that big a difference if you are over 200 or so, but friends say get the fastest (some of the top guys on Computer Audiophile where I also hang out). I am using the fastest Arris modem and an Eero router system. I run the modem, router and Empirical Audio Syncrho Mesh reclocker off separate LPS units. The Synchro Mesh is a must have device for TV etc... It makes a world of difference. I use the Wireworld optical cable for my TV feed into the SM unit.

I recently purchased 2 1m lengths of Wireworld Platinum 8 ethernet cables and the EMO-70e I believe it is. I noticed that the noise floor was similar to that of the optical isolation. I haven't noticed any degradation of the sound quality at all and I believe I have a pretty resolving system at this point. I noticed a large difference when upgrading to the newest WW cables. I noticed the largest improvement in my digital when upgrading all the cords to the Audioquest Hurricane. I will be getting the Dragon once my DAC is taken out of the server adn into a two box solution. I have a feeling that will be a HUGE improvement as the DAC is already as good as the Brinkmann (to my ears and I've had that unit in the house also). I am expecting it to rival or better my friends DaVinci mk2 from Light Harmonics as well as be up there with the MSB Select I have heard and loved.

Not sure if that helps anyone or not as things that work in my house and in my system. Digital is soooo different in every system.

[still-one]

As I had previously posted I was waiting for my local dealer to have a updated Renderer installed in their Reference DAC so I could perform another A/B comparison with my Vivialdi set-up. I picked up the unit yesterday and as you can see from the photo it has found a place where my turntable normally sits. I hope the SME doesn;t take a tumble off the pre-amp. I will keep the unit 'till next Saturday and hope to have a better idea of its strengths and weaknesses.

DSC_1080.JPG

[Ritmo]

As I had previously posted I was waiting for my local dealer to have a updated Renderer installed in their Reference DAC so I could perform another A/B comparison with my Vivialdi set-up. I picked up the unit yesterday and as you can see from the photo it has found a place where my turntable normally sits. I hope the SME doesn;t take a tumble off the pre-amp. I will keep the unit 'till next Saturday and hope to have a better idea of its strengths and weaknesses.

DSC_1080.JPG

Look forward to your impressions Jim! What a fun time ahead!

[still-one]

Look forward to your impressions Jim! What a fun time ahead!

Mike, for the most part I enjoy A/B 'ing gear so it should be a good week. Did not get much listening time in so far today as I was engrossed by the Masters.

[KeithR]

Sounds like good fun, Jim. Look forward to your thoughts.

[steinkrieg]

Hey Jim! Any impressions you can share yet?

[still-one]

Hey Jim! Any impressions you can share yet?

I have been putting together some thoughts today. I spent the first five day listening to the MSB alone and have spent today A/B'ing with my Vivaldi.

[SuperDave]

I have been putting together some thoughts today. I spent the first five day listening to the MSB alone and have spent today A/B'ing with my Vivaldi.

I'm interested to hear your thoughts too! My Nagra dealer has the DCS stack and my local dealer has MSB.

Dave

[Kingrex]

How about this Jim, are they strinkinly different or a very subtle hard to tell?

[still-one]

I'm interested to hear your thoughts too! My Nagra dealer has the DCS stack and my local dealer has MSB.

Dave

One dealer here carries Nagra and MSB and others while another carries dCS, Playback Design and others.

[still-one]

As I posted above one of my local dealers loaned me their recently updated MSB Reference DAC with a new Renderer card. Between last Saturday and this morning I only listened to the MSB DAC. I am not sure about others but my music memory is good but not great. When I am comparing gear I often makes notes about specific passages to aid in the comparison.

I have found it very important over the years to remove a product after a period to insure that any perceived “improvement” was not solely the result of change. I truly believe that we often confuse a change with better. For some reason any change seems to make us listen closer. After listening to a stable system for a lengthly period our ears/brain mask certain aspects of our gear.

For the first five days I fully enjoyed the MSB Reference DAC in my system. I moved my turntable aside, removed the ethernet cable from my dCS Upsmapler and connected to the back of the unit and Roon almost immediately recognized the unit and configured it automatically. From the first tracks I identified vocals as a strength of the Reference DAC. Vocals seem a bit cleaner without any hit of “sheen” around them.

During those first five days I wasn’t sure if the bass was any tighter or more accurately portrayed as compared to my dCS set-up but I defiantly enjoyed what I was hearing.

Based on my memory I felt that the highs may not have been as accurate or extended as what I was getting from my Vivaldi units.

To summarize the first five day. Day 1. Wow!! This is really good. Day 2. Oops. Where did that initial sound go? Days 3-5. It was constantly enjoyable to listen to the Reference DAC.

This morning I decided it was time to actually A/B the two units. I inserted a switch just in front of the two units and connected each unit via ethernet to the switch. After a few minutes Roon again identified both units as endpoints. I can easily select the endpoint in Roon and direct the output to my pre-amp where I can chose which device I wanted to hear by selecting the proper input via remote.

I have been going back and forth between the two units for over five hours as I start to write this. The more I listen the less I care which one is currently playing. In general I would have to give the edge on vocals to the MSB Reference DAC. On most CD’s it sounds a bit more pleasing to the ear assuming that the dCS is not more accurately conveying what is on the recording. The one area where the dCS vocals are better seems to be on MQA recordings. It is possible that the MQA filters developed by dCS account for this.

I do believe that my Vivaldi might extract a bit more detail on some recordings. Earlier today I was playing “After the Rain” by Melody Gardot. The birds in the background you hear in the first minute are more apparent and defined on the Vivaldi. The Vivaldi also appears to better define highs such as cymbals and brush strokes.

Which unit I prefer for reproduction of snares, kick drums or stand up bass is less clear. I would cal this a toss up with a possible lean towards MSB on some recordings. This is the area where one’s ability to play with dCS MAP’s, filters and Upsampling could impact ones preferences.

ADDENDUM

I have listened to many more tracks since I started this post earlier this afternoon. The more I listen the less I lean towards either set-up. I friend who stopped by today suggested I might want to borrow borrow two pair of common XLR cables so I would have the same on both units for the A/B. The XLR’s on the dCS are “tuned” for that pre-amp dCS connection. I thought I would see what would happen if I put the rather generic XLR I was using on the MSB on the dCS. Well that threw water on some of my earlier thoughts. Now the better bass and low frequency has moved towards the dCS stack.

I am thinking that the better vocals still favor the MSB set-up with the generic XLR’s but I am going to listen a bit more tomorrow with those on the dCS before moving them back to MSB to conform what I am hearing. I am not trusting my music memory at all right now, Data Overload.

More to follow.

[Kingrex]

Well that's just great. No clear-cut winner? Now I have to buy both. One to get that last little edge of cripness on instruments and the other for that last breath of ahh on vocals. This is all getting too expensive.

[still-one]

Correction the dCS is approximately $25k higher

[Kingrex]

I also meant to say, thank for going through a long and thoughtfull evaluation of both pieces. It's not an easy thing to do. It's tiring.

[steinkrieg]

Jim, Thanks for the comments! Do you know which Femto clock is in the MSB Ref that you are testing? Are you using the single or dual power units?

[still-one]

Jim, Thanks for the comments! Do you know which Femto clock is in the MSB Ref that you are testing? Are you using the single or dual power units?

It is the single unit dual power base. My assumption is that would suffice unless you plan on using the unit as a preamp where separating the power supplies would benefit more. Pretty sure it is the standard 140. I know it is not the 33 I will double check.

See post #85. It is the Femto 77.

[steinkrieg]

Thanks... I would bet that comparing clocks will help shed some light on differences between the two systems.

[still-one]

Thanks... I would bet that comparing clocks will help shed some light on differences between the two systems.

I guess all I had to do was to look at the information sticker on the top of the MSB flight case. The installed clock is the Femto 77.

[steinkrieg]

Thanks... I have a REF on order with the dual powerbase and the femto 77... very much looking forward to getting it my system.

[still-one]

Thanks... I have a REF on order with the dual powerbase and the femto 77... very much looking forward to getting it my system.

I know you will be very happy with your choice. That sounds like the same set-up I auditioned this time.

[Al M.]

As I posted above one of my local dealers loaned me their recently updated MSB Reference DAC with a new Renderer card. Between last Saturday and this morning I only listened to the MSB DAC. I am not sure about others but my music memory is good but not great. When I am comparing gear I often makes notes about specific passages to aid in the comparison.

I have found it very important over the years to remove a product after a period to insure that any perceived “improvement” was not solely the result of change. I truly believe that we often confuse a change with better. For some reason any change seems to make us listen closer. After listening to a stable system for a lengthly period our ears/brain mask certain aspects of our gear.

For the first five days I fully enjoyed the MSB Reference DAC in my system. I moved my turntable aside, removed the ethernet cable from my dCS Upsmapler and connected to the back of the unit and Roon almost immediately recognized the unit and configured it automatically. From the first tracks I identified vocals as a strength of the Reference DAC. Vocals seem a bit cleaner without any hit of “sheen” around them.

During those first five days I wasn’t sure if the bass was any tighter or more accurately portrayed as compared to my dCS set-up but I defiantly enjoyed what I was hearing.

Based on my memory I felt that the highs may not have been as accurate or extended as what I was getting from my Vivaldi units.

To summarize the first five day. Day 1. Wow!! This is really good. Day 2. Oops. Where did that initial sound go? Days 3-5. It was constantly enjoyable to listen to the Reference DAC.

This morning I decided it was time to actually A/B the two units. I inserted a switch just in front of the two units and connected each unit via ethernet to the switch. After a few minutes Roon again identified both units as endpoints. I can easily select the endpoint in Roon and direct the output to my pre-amp where I can chose which device I wanted to hear by selecting the proper input via remote.

I have been going back and forth between the two units for over five hours as I start to write this. The more I listen the less I care which one is currently playing. In general I would have to give the edge on vocals to the MSB Reference DAC. On most CD’s it sounds a bit more pleasing to the ear assuming that the dCS is not more accurately conveying what is on the recording. The one area where the dCS vocals are better seems to be on MQA recordings. It is possible that the MQA filters developed by dCS account for this.

I do believe that my Vivaldi might extract a bit more detail on some recordings. Earlier today I was playing “After the Rain” by Melody Gardot. The birds in the background you hear in the first minute are more apparent and defined on the Vivaldi. The Vivaldi also appears to better define highs such as cymbals and brush strokes.

Which unit I prefer for reproduction of snares, kick drums or stand up bass is less clear. I would cal this a toss up with a possible lean towards MSB on some recordings. This is the area where one’s ability to play with dCS MAP’s, filters and Upsampling could impact ones preferences.

ADDENDUM

I have listened to many more tracks since I started this post earlier this afternoon. The more I listen the less I lean towards either set-up. I friend who stopped by today suggested I might want to borrow borrow two pair of common XLR cables so I would have the same on both units for the A/B. The XLR’s on the dCS are “tuned” for that pre-amp dCS connection. I thought I would see what would happen if I put the rather generic XLR I was using on the MSB on the dCS. Well that threw water on some of my earlier thoughts. Now the better bass and low frequency has moved towards the dCS stack.

I am thinking that the better vocals still favor the MSB set-up with the generic XLR’s but I am going to listen a bit more tomorrow with those on the dCS before moving them back to MSB to conform what I am hearing. I am not trusting my music memory at all right now, Data Overload.

More to follow.

Thank you for the report, Jim. Did you get the idea that the MSB had a "fuller", weightier sound than the dCS? Such adjectives appear to be often used by MSB owners.

[Kingrex]

Al, having a little fun here, not trying to be snarky.
What if we compared my Mojo Audio Mystique V3 DAC to the DCS and it was found to be fuller and weightier? Would that now be a benefit or a detriment?

Is the question implying the DCS is thin or is it the MSB is bloated and fat.

Or is it just a simple request to have the whole review and conclusion, if it should so be called so, condensed down to two words

[still-one]

Thank you for the report, Jim. Did you get the idea that the MSB had a "fuller", weightier sound than the dCS? Such adjectives appear to be often used by MSB owners.

Good question. My initial answer would be yes the Reference DAC sound is "fuller" in the mid range. Part of that comes from the clarity of vocals. This is where this DAC shines. It seems like each sung word is better defined in space. If we are talking about the mid bass range it might be fuller too, but maybe not as accurate. Stand up bass notes weren't as defined. I picked this up on a couple of tracks on the Alison Krauss "Live" album.

I wonder what the impact of using different interconnect and power cords would have on my observations above? For that matter anyone's preferences

What I do know is that this was not as easy I anticipated. Both DAC's have changed since I performed my initial comparison. With their latest Renderer MSB has really upped their game. In my mind ethernet is the best option for today's digital. dCS continues to update their product with new MAP'ing options, new filters and improved DXD and DSD options. I like the ability to go back and forth between the various filters and Upsampling. For months my output was DXD and for the last couple it has been DSD.

[Al M.]

Al, having a little fun here, not trying to be snarky.
What if we compared my Mojo Audio Mystique V3 DAC to the DCS and it was found to be fuller and weightier? Would that now be a benefit or a detriment?

Is the question implying the DCS is thin or is it the MSB is bloated and fat.

Or is it just a simple request to have the whole review and conclusion, if it should so be called so, condensed down to two words

The question is not loaded. I am not implying that a "fuller" sound would necessarily be either a positive or a negative. I am just wondering about the general character. I am at this point not sure either if it would be beneficial if my Schiit Yggdrasil 2 DAC would sound any fuller than it does, or perhaps it would be, who knows. Should a DAC sound full and weighty on all material? Probably not, because that would mask differences between recordings. But it shouldn't sound thin on all material either.

I was asking the question for two reasons:
1) ofter the MSB sound is referred to as full and weighty, distinguishing it from the sound of other DACs
2) on the other hand, the issue of differences in "fullness" and weight sound of sound did not specifically come up in the review by Jim, and I assume for a reason, because he did not hear so many differences in that respect? I am curious to hear from Jim.

[Al M.]

Ok, Jim and I cross-posted; I hadn't seen his post before I submitted mine. Thanks, Jim, for the reply.

[Kingrex]

You know, something I noticed when I got my Mojo was the tonality was much more accurate. Instruments and vocals sounded much more real, like like the actual thing. I did not realize how important that was to me until I heard it. I've become less focus on the weightiness and thickness as I became more focused on this sounds like a true instrument. The only time I find myself really thinking about the wait is when I come home from listening to somebody's reel to reel tape.

Oddly this Thread got me musing about the old days when I would try and recreate songs I heard on the radio playing them with the instruments that I owned. I never felt I could get it to sound like what I heard on the radio. Now with my much more accurate audio components, it's much easier to distinguish what is being played and how to reproduce it with something I have in my hands. It's not that anything's really different with the instruments. It's the way the music comes across is so much different. The audio playback is totally more correct and therefore more like a real acoustic guitar in my hands. Not some garbled mock that comes out of a cheap stereo.

[Alpinist]

Good question. My initial answer would be yes the Reference DAC sound is "fuller" in the mid range. Part of that comes from the clarity of vocals. This is where this DAC shines. It seems like each sung word is better defined in space. If we are talking about the mid bass range it might be fuller too, but maybe not as accurate. Stand up bass notes weren't as defined. I picked this up on a couple of tracks on the Alison Krauss "Live" album.

I wonder what the impact of using different interconnect and power cords would have on my observations above? For that matter anyone's preferences

What I do know is that this was not as easy I anticipated. Both DAC's have changed since I performed my initial comparison. With their latest Renderer MSB has really upped their game. In my mind ethernet is the best option for today's digital. dCS continues to update their product with new MAP'ing options, new filters and improved DXD and DSD options. I like the ability to go back and forth between the various filters and Upsampling. For months my output was DXD and for the last couple it has been DSD.

Jim,

Too bad you couldn’t audition the Reference DAC with the Femto 33 clock. It makes a significant difference in timbral accuracy. I listened to the Reference DAC (Femto 33, Upgraded Preamp Module and Single Powerbase) for the better part of 3 days at RMAF 2017 and its performance was stellar.

Ken

[UltraFast69]

Both are leaders, no doubt. Perhaps in this league, you measure dollar for dollar and see what you get?

I’m guessing the Femto 33 was around a $14K retail option, and if you have the option to power cable the MSB separately for analog and digital then I’m sure that would make a difference.

Then comes finding the right cables for the two, if not the same or even both/combination OEM to neutralize the comparison.

As I write this, I’m thinking there is no way you can make a wrong decision between the two!

And for that matter is Rex’s comments on other brand options where there spot could be in the same series, and my thought there is what supports it, meaning if the support is stronger on a less perceived component it may be falling on the same level.





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Kingrex]

By the way I was not trying to step on or derail this topic. I was just noting how I am seeing music in a new way. It's one thing to get weight, dark background, dynamics etc. It's another to have the tone correct, accurate and realistic. I assume both the DCS and MSB are going to do as such. The 3 dac I owned before my current one did not do it the same. It is leading me to try a single driver direct coupled speaker. I really gravitate to tone.

[Ritmo]

Jim -

Thanks for posting your impressions. Many of us see MSB and DCS as among the top digital product companies in audio. And, unfortunately, while many argue about of one being better than the other, it is very rare to see a side by side comparison. In any event, looks like you had fun and, maybe, a little stress while going through this process.

[Kingrex]

I had a conversation with the maker of my preamp a few weeks ago. I just had it updated and we were talking about what the changes meant to me, and to him. Durring out conversation I wrote some notes on what he thinks about, listens for and strives to create in his musical equipment. These are his words.
Humanness
Heart
The Feel, not the sound
All has to be there.
Can't put a finger on it, as it's emotional.
Not Hyped, just there.
Not drawing attention.
Draws you in. Makes you want to be there.

Do either DAC elicit more or less of an emotional response in you. A response of the "heart". Do you ever get tears in your eyes.

[Kingsrule]

I had a conversation with the maker of my preamp a few weeks ago. I just had it updated and we were talking about what the changes meant to me, and to him. Durring out conversation I wrote some notes on what he thinks about, listens for and strives to create in his musical equipment. These are his words.
Humanness
Heart
The Feel, not the sound
All has to be there.
Can't put a finger on it, as it's emotional.
Not Hyped, just there.
Not drawing attention.
Draws you in. Makes you want to be there.

Do either DAC elicit more or less of an emotional response in you. A response of the "heart". Do you ever get tears in your eyes.

And you bought from this guy?
It's so subjective it's basically meaningless....