Esoteric migrating off of AKM Dac chips for flagship D1X?

[Bar81]

Sure, I will give it a listen at the shows. But based on the reviews, I'm not sure it will be my cup of tea. We shall see. But frankly, if it doesn't even challenge the Rossini, it won't have a snowballs chance against a REF (for my ears).

First, I'm not sure why you're treating a CA review as the Bible. They're as limited in their evaluations as most reviewers - would you take their word for it if they told you that the Select has less weight than the Rossini? A review is an extremely poor substitute for actual experience.

Second, saying you'll take a listen at shows is equivalent to not even trying. You're slamming a product you've never heard in comparison to a product you sell without even taking the time to actually listen to it in a system you know.

[Mike]

First, I'm not sure why you're treating a CA review as the Bible. They're as limited in their evaluations as most reviewers - would you take their word for it if they told you that the Select has less weight than the Rossini? A review is an extremely poor substitute for actual experience.

Second, saying you'll take a listen at shows is equivalent to not even trying. You're slamming a product you've never heard in comparison to a product you sell without even taking the time to actually listen to it in a system you know.

I agree with you, CA is certainly not the Bible.

I’ve heard and owned many EMM/Meitner DAC’s. They all went out the door in short work. I have evaluated many products at shows quite successfully. A trained ear can do that my friend. If EMM wants to send it to me, I would be happy to listen to it and provide a critique, otherwise I will give it a listen at the shows. It might turn out to be excellent. Don’t know. Failing that, I will stick with what I like.

[Phishphan]

Well, he also thinks the TAD speakers sound good, so he sure loves that hyper detailed digital sound, so I’m not surprised.

I’ve heard or owned many Meitner/EMM DAC’s over the years. They’ve all been hyper detailed, impressive at first, then fatiguing after a while. Not my cup of tea.

I’ll prefer the likes of MSB, Luxman or the Chord combo.


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Without question hyper detailed and holographic sounding. The MSB is far warmer. It comes down to preference. Both are ridiculously good


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[Bar81]

Let's take a Merry Christmas step back.

Hyper detailed is a nebulous term. If hyper detailed is being used to describe a DAC that when playing a live album allows you to hear hall ambience, crowd murmers, etc. in the context of a holistic musical performance akin to what I hear at a live show, then the DA2 is definitely that in my system. If hyper detailed is being used as a euphemism for tipped up treble, then that's not an accurate description of the DA2 in my experience.

If on the other hand we're talking about warmth, then the DA2 doesn't have that warm mushy record sound (my opinion of record sound of course). The crowd that was raised on records seems to want that sound out of digital. Personally, I can't stand it; if I wanted that sound, I would have bought a record player. That's not to say I want a cool sound, far from it, but the record sound is well beyond the warmth in any live performance I've heard and my hearing has tested as consistently above average (which just means that I'm hearing fine, not that my preference is the end all). For additional reference, while I love the D'Agostino M400 monos (one of the less than a handful of super hyped components that I've heard that actually lived up to the billing for me), when I paired them with the matching pre, to me the sound got syrupy and slow (my dealer disagreed but he grew up with records - I respect his preference but that's different than saying his view is the correct one).

[Mike]

You raise a very interesting point. I have to agree with you based on what I’ve seen. The younger audiophiles who grew up with CD’s, MP3’s, Hi Res digital and the like, seem to like a different sound from their digital. Much more detailed, what I would call “thinner”, or less “weighty” and certainly less organic (they would call it romantic) because their reference for organic is quite different.

For those of us who grew up on vinyl and R2R tape like myself, I think we seek out a different sound from our digital. I’ve had some younger audiophiles call it “too warm”, “syrupy”, etc. All fair comments from their experiences, but I just don’t hear it that way. I guess we all have a reference of what sound should sound like. Admittedly, mine is tape and vinyl.

[gadawg]

Very interesting thread as I posted the review of the K-01xs vs DA2 on AA. I had lived with the DA2 for about 6-8 months and the thing it did the best was the holographic 3D sound stage without any doubt. I loved it. It also never sounded bright or hyped up in my system which consists of a Mark Levinson No52 Ref pre, No 536 Mono's, Wilson Sasha 2's, Aurender N100h, dac of choice, and all MIT Oracle IC and SC. Using all Transparent Ref and XL power cables w. Ref Isolator. To be fair ... when I started the comparison I was still using fairly cheap power cords and at that point the DA2 was better in almost every way and I had just about written the Esoteric off. Then, I decided to try better power cords and noticed that the entire system sounded much better. One night after getting the new power cords I decided to give the Esoteric another listen as I now had over 1000 hours on it. So with better power cords and equal HRS isolation platforms the k-01xs in my system did sound a bit better than the DA2. It achieved the same level of 3D sound stage as the DA2 with all of the detail but had more weight throughout the mids and lows with greater dynamic slam and impact which for me ... I like. By comparison the DA2 was now sounding a tad bit thin vs the Esoteric. I think that the Esoteric seemed to be more sensitive to power and vibration issues than the DA2 but once those were solved I really liked how it performed. To be very clear ... neither of these units ran all over the other ... the differences are small but noticeable and if I had never heard one or the other I could be happy with either. That said ... now that I've chosen the Esoteric I am going up to the game a little with the D-02X and if that sticks(who knows with me :-) ) then I'll swap out the K-01XS for the P-02X and call it a day. I had also compared the DA2 to the Vivaldi and I preferred the DA2 over the Vivaldi alone but when the upsampler was added I preferred the sound of the Vivaldi but just can't spend that kind of money right now. I liked the DA2 over the Rossini because to me the Rossini just didn't produce the same holographic sound stage as the DA2. I'm sure the MSB is incredible as well I just like the sound signature of the current crop of products from Esoteric. Totally personal preference here so I'm not saying any of these are "better" just different and I'm good with listening to what I like even if someone else thinks its not as good as something else! Moral of the story is to listen to these DACS in your system and decide what you like and make sure the test is truly apples to apples. Cheers everyone!

George

[Bar81]

I left it alone on AA as you found a sound you were happy with (Esoteric's whole business model is based on overemphasis of the lower regions) but your comparison was as far from apples to apples as it gets. There were so many variables being mixed that it made my head spin. You don't know what in your system contributed to what part of the sound.

[Alpinist]

I left it alone on AA as you found a sound you were happy with (Esoteric's whole business model is based on overemphasis of the lower regions) but your comparison was as far from apples to apples as it gets. There were so many variables being mixed that it made my head spin. You don't know what in your system contributed to what part of the sound.

I’ve owned an Esoteric K-01, K-01X and Grandioso K1/G1 and I never heard an overemphasis of the bass with any of these components. In fact, the overall frequency response was very linear. I listen to a lot of vocal/upright bass and piano/upright bass recordings and if the bass was overemphasized, it would immediately be evident.

Having read George’s posts here and on AA, it appears that he has done an exhaustive comparison over a long period of time of the K-01Xs and the DA2. Where he initially preferred the DA2, the K-01Xs showed a more significant improvement with upgraded power cords and interconnects. I have also found the Esoteric Players to be highly sensitive to cabling choices. So, in the end, he preferred the K-01Xs. This does not diminish the performance of the DA2, which he said was excellent.

Ken

[Bar81]

You completely missed the point of my post. I couldn't care less what he preferred - that's for him to decide and be happy with. The issue I had is that he changed pre, amp, ICs, SCs, PCs and isolation all in the last year. That's basically a whole new system - it's impossible to make any apples to apples determinations with that much change.

Esoteric has always emphasized the lower registers, always have and always will - that's Esoteric's signature. Nothing wrong with liking that but that's a far cry from claiming a "very linear" (not sure what "very" adds - it's either linear or it's not) response.

[AJR]

Aggressive

[Alpinist]

You completely missed the point of my post. I couldn't care less what he preferred - that's for him to decide and be happy with. The issue I had is that he changed pre, amp, ICs, SCs, PCs and isolation all in the last year. That's basically a whole new system - it's impossible to make any apples to apples determinations with that much change.

Esoteric has always emphasized the lower registers, always have and always will - that's Esoteric's signature. Nothing wrong with liking that but that's a far cry from claiming a "very linear" (not sure what "very" adds - it's either linear or it's not) response.

What difference does it make if he made major changes to his system from the time of his initial evaluation? He still owned both components and after he completed all of his changes, he preferred the K-01Xs over the DA2 in the end. According to George, the K-01Xs benefited more from his changes than the DA2.

I’ve owned three Esoteric players over the last six years and listened to thousands of recordings and in all that time, I’ve never felt the bass was overemphasized. I now own the MSB Select II DAC and the bass response is very close to the Esoteric, just as it was with the Berkeley Reference 2 DAC I owned in between.

Ken

[Bar81]

Actually he preferred the dCS.

There's nothing wrong with the Esoteric sound, I used to love it (and still don't have any issues with it - a little extra on the low end always sounds nice with piano and the like) but it is what it is. Not sure what to tell you if you're not hearing it.

[gadawg]

" ...You completely missed the point of my post. I couldn't care less what he preferred - that's for him to decide and be happy with. The issue I had is that he changed pre, amp, ICs, SCs, PCs and isolation all in the last year. That's basically a whole new system - it's impossible to make any apples to apples determinations with that much change.

Esoteric has always emphasized the lower registers, always have and always will - that's Esoteric's signature. Nothing wrong with liking that but that's a far cry from claiming a "very linear" (not sure what "very" adds - it's either linear or it's not) response...."

Well I certainly did not change preamp, power amps, SC or IC within the evaluation of the DACS in question so please get your facts straight before being critical. Factually the Levinson gear has been in place for 10 months now and all IC and SC for 6 months so I think that is more than sufficient time to do a meaningful comparison. And for the last comparison even the power cords didn't change so unless you need a system to be static for years before doing any comparisons I have no idea what you are even talking about.

George

[Al M.]

Hyper detailed is a nebulous term. If hyper detailed is being used to describe a DAC that when playing a live album allows you to hear hall ambience, crowd murmers, etc. in the context of a holistic musical performance akin to what I hear at a live show, then the DA2 is definitely that in my system. If hyper detailed is being used as a euphemism for tipped up treble, then that's not an accurate description of the DA2 in my experience.

If on the other hand we're talking about warmth, then the DA2 doesn't have that warm mushy record sound (my opinion of record sound of course). The crowd that was raised on records seems to want that sound out of digital. Personally, I can't stand it; if I wanted that sound, I would have bought a record player. That's not to say I want a cool sound, far from it, but the record sound is well beyond the warmth in any live performance I've heard and my hearing has tested as consistently above average (which just means that I'm hearing fine, not that my preference is the end all).

In my view you are generalizing too much. I agree that vinyl can have a warm, mushy sound, but that is not what I hear from top vinyl which, depending on recording and pressing, can have a very incisive, detailed and 'fast' sound. The tonal balance of my system with the (highly resolving) Schiit Yggdrasil DAC, a DAC which has been described to be on the neutral rather than 'warm' side, is pretty comparable with my friends' systems with their vinyl set-ups. On the other hand, I have also heard vinyl sound that is more on the 'analytical' side if you will, so it all depends, really.

And yes, I too use (unamplified) live music as reference.

[brodricj]

P1X and D1X now posted on the Esoteric Japan product page.

[brodricj]

First production P1X/D1X were indicated to ship 4 days ago, have any made their way into dealer showroom yet?

Hong Kong dealer expecting theirs in mid-April.

[brodricj]

Australian pricing on P1X/D1X has been announced: $55,000 AUD (= US$38,700).

[brodricj]

P1X/D1X have now replaced P1/D1 on the current product pages on the Esoteric Japan website.

Interesting to see that the P-02X remote control RC-1315 now ships with P1X (RC-1156 shipped with P1).

http://www.esoteric.jp/products/esot...d1x/index.html

[justubes]

P1X/D1X have now replaced P1/D1 on the current product pages on the Esoteric Japan website.

Interesting to see that the P-02X remote control RC-1315 now ships with P1X (RC-1156 shipped with P1).

http://www.esoteric.jp/products/esot...d1x/index.html

Given the full set comprises of 4 boxes, production still inviolves much assembly work, so orders need to be in queue.

Saldy, the D1x looks not to have an input selector on remote and omitted with the dac, forgot to check when i had placed an order..

It would have been nice to be able to switch from usb and xlr for streaming and again from cosx, xlr, eslink when connected to the transport.

I hope the new remote can support this, i must make a separate order for the remote.

It would have been a great addition, rather disappointed yet again.

Any information if the MQA decoding can be made from all input?

I would guess that since the dac can decode MQA discs, the MQA will be a proper implementation and not just decoded in the USB circuit like most other MQA dacs which allow MQA only from USB input.

[kiwi_1282001]

[...]

Any information if the MQA decoding can be made from all input?

I would guess that since the dac can decode MQA discs, the MQA will be a proper implementation and not just decoded in the USB circuit like most other MQA dacs which allow MQA only from USB input.

I'm also interested to learn more about these questions. Does anyone know more?

[brodricj]

N-01 doesn't have a remote control. I don't see D1X - assuming it does not have remote control input select - as being a big deal.

[justubes]

I would have thought it would be very handy to a CD in the transport , streaming via xlr or spdif; USB for hirez all all from your listening position.

Switching between filters will also have been a very thoughful feature.

[SCAudiophile]

I left it alone on AA as you found a sound you were happy with (Esoteric's whole business model is based on overemphasis of the lower regions) but your comparison was as far from apples to apples as it gets. There were so many variables being mixed that it made my head spin. You don't know what in your system contributed to what part of the sound.

"(Esoteric's whole business model is based on overemphasis of the lower regions) "

I will with respect disagree in earnest with this. Their entire business model is based upon so much more and different things than over-emphasized bass
and that stated, their bass is not over-emphasized at all, IMHO. It's fast, articulate and accurate. I've not had one single Esoteric player that bloats or
over-emphasized the bass. I've owned;

DV-50S
P-0s Transport
UX-1
UX-1 Limited
P-03 Universal /D-03
P-02 / D-02

starting in late 2005 and continuing to this day. In almost 14 years haven't heard over-emphasized/bloated bass out of any Esoteric box.

And I've spent significant listening time (days and weeks not minutes) with;

P-01 / D-01
P1/D1
K1
K-01X
X-01
UX3

What Esoteric equipment have you owned and/or spent significant time with?

Perhaps we agree to disagree , however the bass is not over-emphasized/exaggerated at all. That may have been cable choice for
interconnects, digital cables, etc...creeping in to whatever you were hearing.

BTW...your system signature has a great line-up and must sound great! I'll say for the record that if I did not have Esoteric at this point, having heard several
EMM units (and liking them alot) I'd probably have EMM or MSB at this point...

Bar81 EMM Labs TX2|DA2 | Ayre KX-R Twenty | D'Agostino Momentum M400 | Focal Maestro Utopia III | MIT Oracle MA | VH Audio Airsine | Shunyata King Cobra CX | Shunyata Denali 6000/T | Harmonic Resolution Systems| CAD Ground

[brodricj]

I own P1/N-01 and I describe the bass of that combination as tight, textured, and tonally correct. I also own Krell gear and if anything, that would be over-emphasized in the bass. There is no competition in the comparison between those 2 brands here, the Esoteric walks all over Krell.

[justubes]

I found the bass of the Esoteric bass to be tighter, more sound, dynamic and clear sounding with just the right touch of warmth and naturalness than the competion whether higher or lower in its price range, the K01 when 1st introduced in to my system.

Conversely, also the 1st time i heard it was in a tube system which the ownerr was desperately wanting to let go off. It has no bass, sounded thin and that was what steered me away from the brand, yet again afther hearing the cheaper Esoteric playes of the early 2000's.

I resisted despite reading many owners who recommended it in another forum. I went with the DCS pucinni, but until it gave reading problems that the dealer has a k03 which i took in the meantime so i was not left musicless whilst the unit was sent back to England.

The rest was history, k01 was ordered later that night with the DCS traded in.

But i must say, it was overall only rather good, the magic happens only when it is well set up and especially so after adding the clock and great clock cables.

Many who had not much to say, almost always never heard it properly setup, especially with a clock and dismissed Esoteric as not playing in the level of price.

I actually feel that given the pricing, the quality of the transport mechanism alone in the one box offerings leaves the dac section alone in the $10k region. Abosolutely blows any competition as a dac in that its class.

My D1x is soon to arrive to retire my k01x. I use the dac section most and felt time i need an upgrade as my cabling alone over time exceeded the cost of just the player used as a dac.

Apart from that reason, i am more than satified which exceeds all my expectations with the sound quality presently.

[brodricj]

..My D1x is soon to arrive to retire my k01x..

Huh? Why not keep the K01X as a digital source for the D1X?

[justubes]

I will be keeping it, just in case for the most impossible sitution that i might possible i prefer it more than the D1x.

It is only testament how much i look up to just the k01x presently, though i use the dac reclocked and master clocked from a Mutec MC3.1+ from the Aurender .....Just sublime.

I wount be able to use the the reclocker with tye D1x, further power cables and clocking cables will be different to some extent as it will be used via dual Aes.

I have ordered the cables, nordost valhalla 2 pc and Shunyata clock 50 cables along with different isolating feet (currently stillpoints) which will also be a new addition to be introduced together with the D1x.

Ut it may be some time to settle the new dac and relook if i will even require the K01x.

I dont have intention to sell it, except of it is going to sit unconnected or used in the future for a few years.

I have a streamer come ripper, so cds will be via storage. The K01x has no way to replay SACDs to the D1x.

I initially scrapped ever buying into the brand again due to lack of forsight and upgradability in adding their dacs to their 1 box offering via eslink. Either engineers were Incompetent and lacked forsight or deliberately done to force loyal customers to sell off and puchase theit newest offerings.

I k01x since its release some 4 or 5 years, both occassions ordered before the first unit ws even brought in, just as the D1x.

I will not be upgrading for the next few years and will happily keep the k01x for life if the D1x somehow does not fit sonically to my taste and treat the K01x better with more tweaks and accessories.

Anyway, this is my plan and retire myself from this crazy endless chase and of everyone saying band X is better than band Z etc etc etc.....

[brodricj]

..The K01x has no way to replay SACDs to the D1x....

My P1 can send DSD to N-01, why do you think K01X can't do the same to D1X?

[Alpinist]

I owned the Esoteric Grandioso K1 Player/DAC and Grandioso G1 Master Clock. They were marvelous sounding components. However, I traded in both the K1 and G1 for the MSB Select II DAC when the G1 was so new that it was barely out of the box. Why did I do this? I guess the first reason was that I preferred the naturalness of the Select II DAC’s sound. But nearly just as big a reason was that I wanted to get off the Esoteric upgrade merry-go-round.

In the last few years I had traded up from the K-01 to K-01X to K1, every time AKM came out with a new DAC chip. When I listened to the K1’s AKM 4497EQ’s DAC chip I felt that I was at the pinnacle of sound quality. But in December 2018, AKM came out with the 4499EQ DAC chip. Soon the Grandioso K1 will no longer be the latest and greatest. But this time I didn’t even flinch. So, if the Grandioso D1X has migrated off AKM and moved to their own ladder DAC, I would consider this a great thing. Because it means the D1X won’t be outdated in a year.

Ken

[justubes]

Brodricj,

To understand more, None of their 1 box players, even the k1 or the latest k-xs series has esl hdmi connections. Sorry, Esoteric products range is truly fragmented into distinct ranges currently.

To be fair, the xs uncoporates a toned down xlr ESLink which will allow data above 24/96 to the appropriate dacs. Try hooking that up to a P1 transport. It. cannot work apart from using USB connections, obsoleting all the technological marvels of outputs designed for the P1.

I considered the N01 to play as a dac to my K01x at one point.

No ESLink meaning the Sacd transport would become redundant in my K01x. Ludicrous!!!

The D02x was long in tooth in the dac chip it used.

So, basically Esoteric felt their 1 box players where not up to the standard to deserve linking to their flagship D1 range with a very similar transport mechanism employed in both. Again, pure nonsense.

The D1, never heard it but for that amount of investment, technologically dac chip wise has been left far behind and a replacement was inevitable based on how Esoteric designed their dacs. I am certain it still sounds fantastic.

I was forced to start looking at the Msb dacs, Apart I felt the Select was just too much of a luxury. I like Cavair and champagne, but more often than not, a nice Wagyu burger and beer get me off more often than not.

As such, the price of the Select had just too much premium in it.

I of course would go for the Femto 33, it could be slaved to a front end short of I guess the Msb transport because it requires a signal telling what frequency to output. It doesn't work for streaming with files of different sample rates.

The clock specs is unquestionable, but at 44k and 48k, it it basically a Toyota sedan priced as a Posche. My choice was that I was not falling into this trap.

Esoteric has woken up?

Well, the partial reasons I see in the D1x has been their wakeup call and deserves a chance.

What so good about it?

1. True implementation of Mqa. It states the P1x can play mqa discs and be decoded by the D1x.

If for any reason, they limit is via USB connection to the D1x and not implement it for all the output connecting to dac. To all that read this post, is Esoteric design is a failure it the digital world, and possibly won't be around long to keep up with the changes and I will pony up for the Msb, they then deserve every bit of premium.

2.A discrete dac supporting what, 64bits, meaning software updates and theoretically cannot and will not be outdated even in 5 years time with updates.

Unless, we see cd' or streaming with double the highest resolution then. This will not happen, CD has a limited bandwidth way below the specs in the D1x.

It will be a new era where a new format has been introduced successfully and it is time to change the D1x for a totally new era.

3.The output stage has been fitted with their top preamp output stage.

It can be upgraded easily to whatever significant technology advances then, but again the output stage is highly subjective and more a matter of choice what and how to implement it. There are no real significant advancements in this area for the past 10 years. Its an analogue design anyway.

A new opamp, say a muses 04 will not steer me to an upgrade unless it is a replacement board which can been easily done as the power supplies are more than sufficient to accommodate any upgrades here.

A new chassis made by aluminium adopted from their Atlas transport. That is more marketing hype, I expect at least a titanium chassis to be of a worthy upgrade.

So there what is lacking besides a lack of remote to control the inputs. My legs will easily solve this issue by walking that few meters to push a button, that's fine.

So based on my analysis of this player, Esoteric has stepped up.

Looking at it, they will focus their efforts in ditching AKM chips which is a very welcomed move and focus R&D to slowing trickle down starting with the D02x and finally down the whole range within the next change in product cycle.

The D1x being the initiation of this new direction, deservedly will be taken care of for more than the typical 5 years change in product cycle.

This will end the problem with them implementung a AK4999 in the D1x and when a AK 5000 will has already been developed and priming for production and marketing in the next year or two.

Use this chip for the whatever, k01xs, k1, N1 and D02x replacements in 2 years time? What will one do? Esoteric should rightly dump the prices of the theoretical D1x with the AK4999 below the pricing of the new offering as this is a player which is outdated and personally a disgrace to have it as a flagship using a old chip design.

This will then earn my respect because the top model now is fit for "a due for replacement" note in their website.

Upgrades will want the latest technology.

The only way it that the it can remain a flagship is to market to say, the new dac chips development cannot surpass what we use in the vastly superior sounding dac using yesterday's technology.

Diaclaimer: AKM has outdone themselves with the AK4999 in the pinnacle of dac designs and will raise the prices for this dac chip.

All new offerings made after the AK4999 will be halted and AKM will focus to solely produce the AK4999 for the next 5 years as we have and cannot find any new technically way to improve our flagship chip which surpasses sonically any of our engineers can design.

A big retrenchment in AKM looming?

I guess full merit should still given to modular design dacs. But small pcb board replacements is not that difficult.

Sorry for the long winded thoughts of mine, but I believe their new dac is destined to be keeper for some time to come!

With these points, I have thus placed my renewed faith in the Esoteric products which I have voted with my wallet.

Not so much opinions of whatever products, Money talks, I guess.

[brodricj]

The FGPA design in the D1X frees them from the limitations of the hardwired DAC chips of yesteryear. The D1X has 2 FPGA in it, one performs the discrete DAC modulating function, the other does all the extraneous stuff like input selecting, DoP decoding, ES-Link decoding, PCM up-converting, PCM to DSD converting etc. They can configure the gates in the FGPA to do whatever they want in any number of ways and I'm sure over time they will improve the code to lower distortion, increase S/N, improve filters and do all those other things to improve sound and function via software update.

As for your previous point about losing SACD capability with the K01X + D1X. Maybe D1X will support ESL-A and you'll be able to spin a SACD in the K01X and have DSD appear in the display of the D1X.

[justubes]

The K-01x has only 2 digital outputs 1 RCA and XLR.

As a transport, the only high rez would be spinning SACD's to an external dac.

Esoterics ESL and a few other brands have this support to decode SACD in a separate dac, but not through a RCA or XLR output.

There is a restriction of SACD being decoded by quite a number of dacs though which totally emit SACD playback and use drives that cannot read SACDs.

Spot on the FPGAs, they are powerful enough to support any implementation for time being until a new era in higher bandwidth formats emerges.

With streaming gaining more ground today, the industry will look conversely in adopting any higher bandwidths formats.

SACDs have been slowly regang popularity today and might be about the highest resolution on physical data.

[brodricj]

Esoterics ESL and a few other brands have this support to decode SACD in a separate dac, but not through a RCA or XLR output..

Esoteric N-01 can decode SACD from an Esoteric transport connected via XLR. You just need to set the XLR output of the transport to ESLINK1 via MENU functions. Trust me on that, it works.

[justubes]

More single box player owners would want to upgrade the dac first and keep the Player as a transport.

Wuth streaming, the role of the transport diminishes , except for owner who have a vast cd collection.

Otherwise acquiring physical cd's is getting less and less.

Instead of going online to purchase cd's , i just get online to stream the music. No waiting for the cd to arrive or get lost in the mail.

So it means the P1 can play to a new range release from the N-01.

It would be rare to have a P1 owner that doesnt have the D1 and use the p1 to spin disc into a K1 or K-01xs.

Well, it makes some sense if the N-01 was acquired to play network audio, in that, if one the P1 was handy, he could the n spin SACD's also from the P1 to the N-01.

[brodricj]

The N-01 sounds fantastic whether source is streaming or P1 (P1 sounds better than streaming). My plan is to replace the N-01 with D1X + N-03T, and probably not upgrade P1 to P1X. I think it's getting tough to justify the price of P1X, especially for P1 owner.

[justubes]

If you have lots of cd's, presumably so since you have a p1.

I will be inclined to hold on to the N01 for streaming unitil a Grandioso streamer comes out with Eslink.

If you can demo to P1 and D1 via Eslink and traditional coax or Aes with just redbook.

I believe you may find the Eslink way superior, that streaming will be clearly outclassed by cd's.

In that situation, you can then make a better decision wheretherean investment in a P1x will be all you want and holdback the on acquiring N03T.

Maybe a N1t is forthcoming.

Whatever it is, the N03T's interface may not be doing the D1x ESlink interface any justice.

I would do that combo using usb for sure.

Eslink is capable of whatever Dsd needs.

[brodricj]

D1X supports ESL-A so you will be able to connect K-01X digital output via XLR and play SACD.

[justubes]

The K01x does not have any digital outputs other than the normal rca and xlr.

Even ESL Analogue (ESL-A) , is on the Analogue outputs for the newer players.

So connecting either units as a transport to any dac, will be limited to 96k for rca and 192k for xlr. So even xlr maxing out at 192k bandwidth cannot carry dsd or sacd content which is 2.822mhz

No other digital outputs, not even in the k1 player.

Eslink Analoge is claimed as a better transmission via xlr to their preamp.

Eslink 4 and 5 is a digital interface and has no relation to ESL-A.

Very different altogether.

The ESL 4 and now 5 is similare ti IS2 and hmdi type transmissions where various signals including clocking signals are transmitted via seperate lines on the hdmi link and does doen embed these digital signal together in with the main music signal, so claimingly superior.

I have just relooked at the product data.

Your N01 does not have a single digital output, it will become redundant once you add your D1x to the system.

That is to say, even if you acquired the N03T, any rca or xlr will limit you to redbook PCM quality.

You can only get DSD up to 2.8mhz throght to the D1x via usb.

The N03T cannot even transmit DSD 5.6mhz.

The D1x supports 64bit /768khz for pcm and for DSD 22.5mhz for Eslink 5.

Single Eslink1 and 2 supports up to DSD2.8.

Dual Aes will support up to 384k.

In short without ESLink 2, no transport will pass Sacd information. Not even with Dual AES(Bummer!) I just leant another downside.

So read the specs on the N03T, it is already become dinosaur in the copany with a D1x capabilities. Do yourself a favour and wait for a N1-T.

My earlier posts states that if Esoteric continues as such, i strongly believe that they will end in fanancial diaster if they do not clean up their act and stop releasing what is to me half-baked products and start in a new and correct direction with the D1x.

I dont wish for that to happen, else i wouldnt have bought the D1x. I trust they will clean up their act going forward, releasing important FPGA updates and slowing bringing the rest of the new range up to today's demandig digital world.

If i didnt have a pure streamer that i liked already, i would have turned to MSB without any hesistance.

[Yuen Andy]

[QUOTE=Mike;257296]Just read two reviews on the EMM DA2. Soundstage and CA. CA puts it above the Berkeley and below the dCS Rossini. Both describe it with having lots of detail and resolute highs, but lacking the weight of even the dCS (which I don’t consider “weighty”).

Hi Mike, I don't think CA puts the dCS Rossini above the EMM Labs DA2. He said: "The DA2 didn't seem to make errors of commission or omission, and fell directly in the middle of the Berkeley and dCS. ... I hate to call the DA2 middle of the road because that implies ordinary or fair-to-middling, when in fact this DAC is extraordinary. "

[brodricj]

That's not right. The P1 can pass SACD via XLR digital out. I'm 100% sure of that, it says so in the manual and I have it working like that.
The Esoteric K1/01Xs/03Xs SACD player analog XLR outputs can be configured as ESL-A and connected to D1X for SACD playback. It says so in the manual.

I would operate my N-01 as a standalone unit, and the P1 would be connected to D1X via ESLINK-4. If I were to sell the N-01 I would buy N-03T and use that until Esoteric do a Grandioso network transport. At some point I'd like to get a Cybershaft clock with OP spec equivalent to G1 or better. I don't imagine Esoteric will announce any new products until the next Tokyo show.

Another thing I noticed is P1X only has the one clock input, no clock output, and I suspect it is 10Mhz only. D1X clock input is also a 10Mhz.

[Mike]

[QUOTE=Yuen Andy;264933]

Just read two reviews on the EMM DA2. Soundstage and CA. CA puts it above the Berkeley and below the dCS Rossini. Both describe it with having lots of detail and resolute highs, but lacking the weight of even the dCS (which I don’t consider “weighty”).

Hi Mike, I don't think CA puts the dCS Rossini above the EMM Labs DA2. He said: "The DA2 didn't seem to make errors of commission or omission, and fell directly in the middle of the Berkeley and dCS. ... I hate to call the DA2 middle of the road because that implies ordinary or fair-to-middling, when in fact this DAC is extraordinary. "

If he puts it between the Berkeley Ref2 and Rossini, I get a clearer picture. I’ve owned the Berk REF2 and Rossini (on trade). Listened to both extensively. If it sits below the Rossini, I don’t think it would be for me, but I would still love to hear it. I find certain reviewers tend to like digital sounds and speakers with bite (didn’t Chris love those TAD’s Joe and I couldn’t stand?). The reference for some reviewers is just more digital. Varying shades of grey if you will.

I much prefer the analog sounds of MSB, Chord DAVE with Blu2 (or M-Scaler) and Luxman D-08u. The T+A PDP3000HV and Lumin X1 can also be in the mix as both are just superb. There’s obviously a few more out there too. Some say Aqua is right there too. The old R2R Lampi sounds too.

I use my Studer 810/Doshi as my reference for what a great source sounds like, not my CD player. That’s the amazing thing about the Select II. When I had it home, I kept saying “it doesn’t sound like any other DAC. In fact, to call it a DAC would be insulting.” You can look back on this site for those comments from over a year ago. Even when I compared the exact same recordings to my Turntable, it didn’t sound like that either. It wasn’t until I compared the same recordings to my Studer 810/Doshi v3 that I said “ah ha! That’s what it sounds like.”

I can’t tell you the number of people that have come into the store to hear amps, speakers, various cables, etc., only to comment “that MSB is the best DAC I’ve ever heard.”

I’m curious to hear the new Berk REF3, but the lack of Ethernet or Fiber Optic input might be a drawback for some. It seems a lot of the world class DAC’s are headed in that direction.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[justubes]

I have extracted the information from the product technical specifications of the various outputs from their website.

But am certain ESL-A is for the mentioned players cannot be connected to the D1x via the 2 xlr output on the leaft and right side..

If you note the ESL-A is on the outermost right and left sides. It is confirmed that the these outputs are after dac conversion and cannot be connected to the D1 or D1x as dual AES.

How are you passing sacd out to the dac?

Did they had a way to pass sacd info out through xlr via ESL-A bypassing the dac output of the players.

Maybe best to get confirmation from your dealer, unreal as it sounds.

But rca and xlr ihas bandwidth limitations which does not allow for higher resolution apart from pcm.

[justubes]

Another thing I noticed is P1X only has the one clock input, no clock output, and I suspect it is 10Mhz only. D1X clock input is also a 10Mhz.

Yes, specifically, now they are 50 ohm only and done away with the clock output. You will need, including your streamer 4 x 10m outputs eventually.

I has sold my Cybershaft due to lack of outputs, the max is 3 output in a new version Kenji offers, but is insufficient.


I just translated and read the japanese manual.

A little setback was that i was planning to use dual Aes to play slightly higher sampling rates aas well as mqa.

Now looks that mqa must be used with any input except the dual connections, i guess it was pointless anyway to stream up to 384k resolution files, not much point for that.

Does anyone have experience whetherthe hdmi cable connecting both units make a difference?

[mdp632]

The new Esoteric flagship products seem to heading in the right direction. At their price point, they have some unique prortieray technology to make it their own.

Getting off the AKM chips is a good move as their competitors at those prices are either using custom silicon or custom R2R.

Most likely, since an FPGA chipset is simple hardware wise but the software and programming filters is what makes the DAC. Eg. Watts Filter on the Chord or Ted Smith’s PS DSD; Meitner’s EMM etc...

You’d expect Estoeric to trickle down the FPGA tech to the rest of their product line in the years to come ; to remain competitive.

Esoteric is on board with MQA and looks like MQA CD (Japanese market) has a few releases.

My question is it seems all Esoteric products use Op-Amps in their output stage. Including these new flagships.

However, many high end Digital products use a pure Class A output stage with no OP-amps. No matter how good an op amp is ; thats still something in the signal path.

Many believe that a Pure Class A output stage contributes to that clean unbroken or “analog” like sound on digital that many enjoy.

Examples are Luxman , Lumin X1 and I’m sure many others.

[brodricj]

...How are you passing sacd out to the dac?

As I mentioned, P1 passes SACD via XLR to N-01. I suspect it will also work with D1X, and the other Esoteric players.

If you find that difficult to believe, have a look at this photo.

DSC01699.JPG

[brodricj]

..You will need, including your streamer 4 x 10m outputs eventually.

I don't think that is right. If you connect the D1X to an external clock, any sources connected by ESLINK will also be syncronized to that clock signal.

So if you have an Esoteric transport connected to D1X ESLINK-1, a Grandioso network streamer connected to ESLINK-2, and both D1X connected together via L-R link, then you only need a 10M clock with single output and one 50 ohm clock cable to clock the whole system.

[Yuen Andy]

If he puts it between the Berkeley Ref2 and Rossini, I get a clearer picture. I’ve owned the Berk REF2 and Rossini (on trade). Listened to both extensively. If it sits below the Rossini, I don’t think it would be for me, but I would still love to hear it. I find certain reviewers tend to like digital sounds and speakers with bite (didn’t Chris love those TAD’s Joe and I couldn’t stand?). The reference for some reviewers is just more digital. Varying shades of grey if you will.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi Mike, Chris said that the DA2 didn't seem to make errors of commission or omission and I agree with him. The DA2 has a weighty sound and it certainly doesn't sound digital but rather sounded like the real thing. Tom Lyle (World Premiere Review September 2018. Enjoy the Music.com: Analogue Artisan A1 Series Turntable with Remote Control VTA/SRA Mongoose Tonearm and Pod. $40,000 USD) observes: "And in a word, that is my impression of the Analogue Artisan A1 Series Turntable with Remote Control VTA/SRA Mongoose Tonearm and Pod. Music. Never have I heard such source-less sounding analog music coming from my speakers. In my review of the EMM Labs DA2 digital-to-analog converter, I described its admirable sonic qualities as being neither digital nor analog sounding, and I believe the Analogue Artisan A1 setup behaved in a similar fashion, because on certain recordings I couldn't tell whether I was listening to analog or digital, I was simply listening to music."

[justubes]

Thanks, thanks great as isnt mention of playing sacd connection, just specs on the output.

Hope mine can work, that will be great.

Does this work for both coax and xlr to the N-01s digital input?

[brodricj]

I'm sure your K-01X will play SACD to D1X via XLR. It won't work for RCA, only XLR.

[Bar81]

"(Esoteric's whole business model is based on overemphasis of the lower regions) "

I will with respect disagree in earnest with this. Their entire business model is based upon so much more and different things than over-emphasized bass
and that stated, their bass is not over-emphasized at all, IMHO. It's fast, articulate and accurate. I've not had one single Esoteric player that bloats or
over-emphasized the bass. I've owned;

DV-50S
P-0s Transport
UX-1
UX-1 Limited
P-03 Universal /D-03
P-02 / D-02

starting in late 2005 and continuing to this day. In almost 14 years haven't heard over-emphasized/bloated bass out of any Esoteric box.

And I've spent significant listening time (days and weeks not minutes) with;

P-01 / D-01
P1/D1
K1
K-01X
X-01
UX3

What Esoteric equipment have you owned and/or spent significant time with?

Perhaps we agree to disagree , however the bass is not over-emphasized/exaggerated at all. That may have been cable choice for
interconnects, digital cables, etc...creeping in to whatever you were hearing.

BTW...your system signature has a great line-up and must sound great! I'll say for the record that if I did not have Esoteric at this point, having heard several
EMM units (and liking them alot) I'd probably have EMM or MSB at this point...

Bar81 EMM Labs TX2|DA2 | Ayre KX-R Twenty | D'Agostino Momentum M400 | Focal Maestro Utopia III | MIT Oracle MA | VH Audio Airsine | Shunyata King Cobra CX | Shunyata Denali 6000/T | Harmonic Resolution Systems| CAD Ground

I should have just not said anything but the Jonathan Valin-esq poster with a new best unit every few weeks was really annoying me. Not my best moment and I shouldn't have dragged the Esoteric brand into it.

In any case, I finally stopped looking with the EMM Labs TX2/DA2 (V2 firmware). Once those M400s arrived I knew the system components were all set. I'm just playing around now with tweaks. Was really disappointed with the Stillpoints Ultra 5s I tried on my speakers earlier this year. But I'm pretty blown away at the effect of the next tweak I tried - signal grounding - I really thought it would be a waste of money. Next is a Shunyata Triton v3 and then down the road I'll probably try mains earth grounding.

Btw, I saw on another thread that you're about to upgrade to the P1/D1 combo and not the new P1x/D1x. Is it just a price consideration or is the P1/D1 so good it's getting you off the merry go round?