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Thread: Can you hear inverted phase
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October 12, 2018, 03:22 AM #1
Can you hear inverted phase
Some months ago we did some exhaustive testing before shipping Lumin X1, and that included phase inversion feature testing. A product manager thought he could not hear phase inversion. Yet when I played some bass-heavy music (e.g. Billie Jean from Thriller SACD, if I remember correctly), he was surprised that he could actually hear it, and the drum sounded so different in our Vivid Giya G2 setup.
Phase inversion can happen in some cases. Some Japanese products like Accuphase and Luxman (note: not including Esoteric) adopt XLR pin 2 cold standard, but I believe it is more common to have source products that have XLR pin 2 hot. So using these together via XLR results in phase inversion by default. Luxman has a polarity inversion button, but Accuphase does not. Then there are many albums that are recorded in inverted phase, making this issue complicated - or even worse, compilation albums may have different phase for different tracks.
Back to our tests. In the particular tracks we tried, we came to a conclusion that a correct phase gives more audible details. Yet there were also cases where some people (subjectively) like the incorrect phase more for particular tracks. (This may also be an example of that the most accurate audio presentation is not necessarily the most enjoyable for a listener's subjective taste.)
So, do you guys hear phase inversion? Not intending to start a flame war. This is more like a poll.Peter Lie
LUMIN Firmware Lead
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October 12, 2018, 07:33 AM #2
Re: Can you hear inverted phase
YES.
On my RoomPlay playlist, IIRC, out of 38 tracks, 17 or so are inverted. With Audirvana, it is corrected automatically when the iTunes comment column for that track is marked ‘invert phase’.
Also works that way with Pure Music.
IMO, having it to be automatic for designated tracks is great, or at least it needs to be quick & easy to switch absolute polarity.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkDPT4ME - Dynamics, Presence & Tone for Musical Engagement; MBP (3) - stripped down for music only; Shunyata Omega & Sigma USBs; ISO REGEN w/short Curious USB links; Berkeley Alpha USB; Aqua La Scala II Optologic DAC; Schiit Yggdrasil - fully updated; Ayre Codex dac - updated; Pass Labs INT-60 integrated amp; Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE-2 preamp, Quicksilver Mono 120 amps w/Tung-Sol KT150s; Quicksilver Mid Mono amps w/Gold Lion KT77s; Fyne Audio 703s; Symposium Svelte Plus & Ultra Platforms; REL S-812 subwoofers; Duelund DCA12GA speaker cables; AV Room Service EVPs, Stein Music Harmonizers, Duelund DCA16GA & 20GA ICs; Shunyata Denali 6000S/V2; Tripp Lite PCs; Wyred 4 Sound power cords; AudioDharma cable cooker; dedicated custom room; various GIK & ASC room treatments; etc.
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October 12, 2018, 08:38 AM #3
Re: Can you hear inverted phase
This is consistent with controlled phase tests, where listeners could detect "a difference"...but preferences, i.e. which was "better", was inconsistent.
Outside of audiophile/studiophile fantasy/imagination, there is no such thing as "accurate" stereo.
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=9136
At best, we create a rough facsimile, the mind/memory fills in many gaps and hopefully, some enjoyment is derived.
cheers,
AJ
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October 12, 2018, 10:47 AM #4
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Re: Can you hear inverted phase
YES indeed.
Over the years, I have observed a couple of what I find interesting things about absolute polarity:
1) Most of the people most aware of absolute polarity are serious recording engineers using somewhat minimalist recording techniques - Jim Smith, Peter McGrath and Dave Wilson to name a few.
2) The more time correct the system, the more obvious the differences.
3) In older multi-miked recordings, the polarity can indeed be preferred one way or the other as the incoming signals that were ultimately mixed did not necessarily have consistent polarity.
4) There are those who hear correct polarity (see #1) without the need for an A/B.
As always, ymmv.
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October 12, 2018, 11:06 AM #5
Re: Can you hear inverted phase
I agree to some extent - it seems to be recording (and system set-up) related.
I have NEVER had a client who could not hear the difference and express a correct acoustic polarity preference for the majority of the inverted tracks from my RoomPlay playlist. Of course, those cuts may feature transients such as from pianos, drums (most any drum, but especially rimshots, struck wood blocks, etc.), guitar plucks, upright bass (such as Brian Bromberg's Wood II, not only for the bass note attacks, but also for when he uses the fret board as a percussion instrument).
Vocals are harder to diagnose. First, the system set-up needs to be really dialed in (an exceedingly rare occasion, IME). Correct acoustic polarity seems to give some vocalists a bit more presence, as if they are more forward in the sound stage. It's easier with close mic'd recordings, IMO. With some recordings, I simply cannot be sure of which is better.
I remember the first time I noticed this phenomenon - it was 1985, and I was setting up a pair of Tympani 1Ds for a client who was coming in to my audio shop that afternoon. The recording? It was a Willie Nelson LP (sorry, I forget which one). His guitar was in opposite polarity to his voice (!)
Although I never knew how it happened, I assumed the recording engineer simply didn't insure that the guitar pick-up was the same polarity as the mic (back then, some well-liked European mics had reverse polarity to the US standard).DPT4ME - Dynamics, Presence & Tone for Musical Engagement; MBP (3) - stripped down for music only; Shunyata Omega & Sigma USBs; ISO REGEN w/short Curious USB links; Berkeley Alpha USB; Aqua La Scala II Optologic DAC; Schiit Yggdrasil - fully updated; Ayre Codex dac - updated; Pass Labs INT-60 integrated amp; Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE-2 preamp, Quicksilver Mono 120 amps w/Tung-Sol KT150s; Quicksilver Mid Mono amps w/Gold Lion KT77s; Fyne Audio 703s; Symposium Svelte Plus & Ultra Platforms; REL S-812 subwoofers; Duelund DCA12GA speaker cables; AV Room Service EVPs, Stein Music Harmonizers, Duelund DCA16GA & 20GA ICs; Shunyata Denali 6000S/V2; Tripp Lite PCs; Wyred 4 Sound power cords; AudioDharma cable cooker; dedicated custom room; various GIK & ASC room treatments; etc.
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October 12, 2018, 12:51 PM #6
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Re: Can you hear inverted phase
With my Horn/SET system, I find it pretty easy to hear phase inversion. Sometimes it is the electronics. my C-J MET-1 says in its user manual that it inverts phase, for example. Others don't say. I've had a Herron preamp for many years that has a phase button on its remote - easy to change from my listening chair.
Part of the problem is on multidriver speakers, I understand that sometimes one driver is phase inverted compared to another driver in the speaker. In heavily multimiked recording sessions one can easily have some instruments recorded in opposite phase to other instruments.
There is a pretty famous story of a non-phase problem that sounded like a phase problem. There is an out semi-audiophile recording of the Haydn and Hummel Trumpet concertos with Gerald Schwarz both conducting the orchestra and playing the trumpet solo. Many listeners complained that his trumpet sounded out of phase with the orchestra. Photos taken of the session explained why. Schwarz was facing the orchestra when conducting, even when he was playing the trumpet solos - so the trumpet was facing away from the microphones!
LarryAnalog-VPIClassic3-3DArm,Lyra Skala+MiyajimaZeroMono,2xAmpex ATR-102,Otari MX5050B2, Merrill Trident Tape Preamp, Herron VTPH-2A&BottleheadPhonoPre,
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October 12, 2018, 01:16 PM #7
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Re: Can you hear inverted phase
These are different things.
There is a difference between electrical phase (crossover to driver wiring) and acoustic phase (summed output at the listening distance). Many multi-driver speakers wired this way have no issue whatsoever showing absolute polarity differences. Others all wired in electrical polarity but with other crossover and or driver location issues have a tougher time showing absolute polarity.
The multi-miking thing ime seemed much more prevalent on older recordings when less attention (no attention?) was paid to absolute polarity. Jim's Willie Nelson experience is a perfect example.
Assuming proper choice of mike pattern for given spots, attention to polarity in set up and all instruments playing toward the capsules (as opposed to the Gerard Schwarz example), it should be pretty consistent. Then again, the best laid plans..
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October 12, 2018, 02:04 PM #8
Re: Can you hear inverted phase
An old issue, to say the least: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/bas/1208/
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October 12, 2018, 02:16 PM #9
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Re: Can you hear inverted phase
The nice thing about absolute polarity inversion it is that it is free. Many pieces of gear offer polarity inversion switches. Worst case if the gear you have doesn't have a switch, you could flip polarity at the speaker cables (ugh). So if you feel it does matter and you can hear it, simply make the adjustment.
If you don't feel you hear it, your system doesn't show it, or it doesn't matter to you, there really is no issue at all.
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October 12, 2018, 03:14 PM #10
Re: Can you hear inverted phase
Shanefield reported his tests using MG-2s.
As the person who actually wrote the MG-2 set-up manual, I'd guess that he had set-up issues that would just about completely smear polarity inversion.
If the speakers were closer than 5' or so from the front wall, or if the front wall was reflective in any way, or if he allowed them to remain tilted backwards as they came from the factory, as well as many more potential set-up errors, the polarity/time component was smeared badly.
FWIW - in those days I never - not once - heard a set of Maggies set up in any audiophile's home that were anywhere close to their true potential.
If that observation held true for Shanefield, I am not surprised that he had difficulty hearing the issue at hand.
But maybe he was the lone exception in North America, and he was right, and those of us who say we have heard it for years are fooling ourselves.
Sorry, that's more than enough of this bickering from me - it's out of line with what was requested by the OP. So I'm out.
DPT4ME - Dynamics, Presence & Tone for Musical Engagement; MBP (3) - stripped down for music only; Shunyata Omega & Sigma USBs; ISO REGEN w/short Curious USB links; Berkeley Alpha USB; Aqua La Scala II Optologic DAC; Schiit Yggdrasil - fully updated; Ayre Codex dac - updated; Pass Labs INT-60 integrated amp; Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE-2 preamp, Quicksilver Mono 120 amps w/Tung-Sol KT150s; Quicksilver Mid Mono amps w/Gold Lion KT77s; Fyne Audio 703s; Symposium Svelte Plus & Ultra Platforms; REL S-812 subwoofers; Duelund DCA12GA speaker cables; AV Room Service EVPs, Stein Music Harmonizers, Duelund DCA16GA & 20GA ICs; Shunyata Denali 6000S/V2; Tripp Lite PCs; Wyred 4 Sound power cords; AudioDharma cable cooker; dedicated custom room; various GIK & ASC room treatments; etc.
www.getbettersound.com
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October 12, 2018, 04:28 PM #11
Re: Can you hear inverted phase
A very recent example... last night... playing around with different cables on this new to me McIntosh amp and I accidently got one speaker out of phase... very obvious issue... tubby bass, while there was great channel seperation, there was almost no center fill. I am very sensitive to phasing so I knew something was not right.. tinny sounding, no body...
Found the one channel out of phase... what a difference.McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105
“One of the great challenges in life is knowing enough to think you're right but not enough to know you're wrong”
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October 12, 2018, 04:34 PM #12
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October 12, 2018, 04:56 PM #13
Re: Can you hear inverted phase
Ah... got ya... well anyway it was much better when fixed .
McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105
“One of the great challenges in life is knowing enough to think you're right but not enough to know you're wrong”
"You can't use reason to convince anyone out of an argument that they didn't use reason to get into"
― Neil deGrasse Tyson
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October 12, 2018, 05:11 PM #14
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Re: Can you hear inverted phase
Absolute Polarity can be inverted in Roon’s DSP section. Long discussion about it in their community forum. Lots of opinions on whether it’s worth messing with or not.
Source: Taiko Audio Server, Cisco 2960 Switch, Gigafoil, Lampizator Pacific Dac. Amp: Bakoon 13r Speakers: AvantGarde Duo Mezzo XD, Cables: Alan Maher Designs Power, Duelund Speaker, Shunyata Sigma IC's Audioquest Diamond ethernet. Room Treatment Vicoustic.
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October 12, 2018, 05:22 PM #15
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October 12, 2018, 05:29 PM #16
Re: Can you hear inverted phase
Dr Shanefield's (RIP) results were based on his tests conditions and your results were based on your test conditions.
YMMV
cheers,
AJ
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October 12, 2018, 05:35 PM #17
Re: Can you hear inverted phase
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October 12, 2018, 07:45 PM #18
Re: Can you hear inverted phase
How does one tell if the phase is inverted, or not? I use balanced connections between all gear, and none have a phase inversion button.
Bud
Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD
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Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes
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October 12, 2018, 08:42 PM #19
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Re: Can you hear inverted phase
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October 12, 2018, 08:55 PM #20
Re: Can you hear inverted phase
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October 12, 2018, 09:04 PM #21
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October 12, 2018, 09:09 PM #22
Re: Can you hear inverted phase
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October 12, 2018, 09:22 PM #23
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Re: Can you hear inverted phase
Thread title is clear. References are misleading at best, sloppy science at worst.
Not sure what this manufactured tempest actually is.
Absolute polarity/inversion is free.
If you find/believe it matters, you use it.
If not, you don't.
Pretty simple actually
And on that note, I'm checking temp on the tri-tip on the grill. Hmm, wonder if I should invert it before pulling it.
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October 12, 2018, 09:51 PM #24
Re: Can you hear inverted phase
More About Absolute Polarity
Article By Dan Shanefield
From BAS Volume 17 Number 3, November 1989He certainly is correct that absolute polarity has sometimes been (barely) audible in double-blind tests.But Johnson failed to mention another critical point. The Summary section of the Lipshitz et al report (on page 593) says that the audibility of polarity changes in music played over loudspeakers is only "extremely subtle." This evaluation is confirmed in an exchange of comments between me and Lipshitz et al published in the J.A.E.S. vol. 31 no. 6, in which we all agreed that for music on loudspeakers absolute polarity is (1) not strongly audible to most people, (2) not usually audible above 500Hz (more so below), (3) possibly not as audible over loudspeakers which are comparatively free of asymmetry effects (such as second harmonic distortion). In these letters I said that all kinds of phase effects were "of negligible importance," and Lipshitz et al said at the very end, "We are basically in agreement with Dr. Shanefield."Further evidence in support of all this is an article in the Stereophile (vol. 4 no. 8), in which there was no audibility of polarity during blind tests done with the use of low-distortion loudspeakers and yet there was good audibility when cheaper, asymmetrical distortion speakers were used. Stereophile's overall conclusion was that absolute phase is of "virtually no significance."
There is a principle in science which can be stated, "Once you see evidence of an additional factor which might really be causing the observed results, you should never ignore it in further studies. Instead, it must be carefully eliminated." In this case the "possible additional factor" could be asymmetry in the loudspeaker, or it could be delusion on the part of the investigator. Both have been mentioned in studies of this kind, and both must be eliminated in future experimental procedures or else the results might be mistakenly interpreted. The scientific investigator should report what was done about this when giving conclusions—otherwise we should all doubt the results.
Actually, I hope several such groups of people will do some foolproof tests and show us that absolute polarity really is important after all. And I hope I'm one of the first people to read about it and adjust my playback system, or practice listening, or whatever I have to do to take advantage of it. Then I can feel superior to the myriad audiophiles who aren't hip.But until this happens, we should all conclude that the whole business is a tempest in a teapot.Dan Shanefield. (New Jersey)
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October 12, 2018, 10:05 PM #25
Re: Can you hear inverted phase
Bud - It can get a bit confusing to explain but since no one else answered you yet I'll give it a try... XLR connectors are most commonly wired with pin 2 hot, but some brands invert the more common polarity and wire pin 2 cold (as also detailed in the OP of this thread.) So if you're connecting any components with inverted polarity via XLR cables you need to consider that each connection between an inverted XLR and non-inverted XLR components will effectively reverse absolute phase. So you have to add up the number of such connections and if there's an odd number your system will end up with inverted absolute phase, but with an even number of such inverted connections you'll end up with the signal being in proper absolute phase. As long as the components you have connected via XLR cables all have common polarity (most likely with pin 2 hot) then your system will maintain proper absolute phase. So to be sure check the manual for each of your XLR connected components to confirm their XLR wiring polarity and go from there. Many listeners cannot hear the difference between proper or inverted absolute phase and it's been estimated that about half of recordings may have inverted absolute phase anyway, so you may consider it to be a moot point. Of course in high end audio everything seems to have some impact so YMMV would apply. If none of your components allow you to invert polarity then there's really no simple way for you to correct it if needed, other than having one pair of XLR cables wired with inverted polarity. Hope this helps and didn't confuse the issue further!
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October 12, 2018, 10:09 PM #26
Re: Can you hear inverted phase
Better answer is that it's yet another thing to drive audiophiles nuts, if they aren't there already
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October 12, 2018, 10:35 PM #27
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Re: Can you hear inverted phase
Because of an earlier post, we want to make sure people don't confuse inverted phase with out of phase. The latter is when one set of speaker wires is connected the opposite way to the other set of speaker wires (for example, red is connected to the black terminal on only one speaker. The out of phase connection makes the sound fuzzy and out of focus. Everyone should easily hear that.
For inverted phase, think of a trumpet. When the trumpet player blows his horn there is positive air pressure leaving the horn and if your system is in correct phase that positive pressure reaches your ear, pushing on your ear drum. On the other hand, if your system has inverted phase, then the sound is created by negative pressure, pulling on your ear drum. Think blow vs. suck. Both cause a sound. In other contexts there is bj vs. sj, or suck up vs blow up. :-)
LarryAnalog-VPIClassic3-3DArm,Lyra Skala+MiyajimaZeroMono,2xAmpex ATR-102,Otari MX5050B2, Merrill Trident Tape Preamp, Herron VTPH-2A&BottleheadPhonoPre,
Dig Rip-Pyramix,IzotopeRX3Adv,MykerinosCard,PacificMicroso nicsModel2 AD
Dig Play-Lampi Horizon, mch NADAC Roon/HQPlayer,Oppo105
Electronics-DoshiPre,CJ MET1mchPre,Cary2A3monoamps
Speakers-AvantgardeDuosLR,3SolosC,LR,RR
Other-512 Engineering Tim Marutani Symmetrical Power IsoTrans and cables,AudioDiskVinylCleaner,
Music-2.3KR2Rtapes,1.5KCD's,500SACDs,60TBripped files
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October 12, 2018, 11:05 PM #28
Re: Can you hear inverted phase
Bud
Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD
Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR for source, Denali 2000 (2) for amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson four shelf maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits.
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October 13, 2018, 12:37 AM #29
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October 13, 2018, 12:42 AM #30
Re: Can you hear inverted phase
Peter Lie
LUMIN Firmware Lead
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October 13, 2018, 12:54 AM #31
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October 13, 2018, 12:58 AM #32
Re: Can you hear inverted phase
I saw a statistic somewhere that claimed up to 50% of pop music is phase inverted on play back and in multi-track recordings (the vast majority of ALL modern recordings) phase is often inverted on individual tracks. As a matter of course, many (most?) recording studios inadvertently invert phase somewhere in the recording process. In Larry's CJ example its a 'good to have' data point but knowing 50% of what you listen to is outta phase anyways, some music will be 'in phase' 50% of the time, regardless--most listeners are agnostic to this fact. That said, The Wood Effect is a good read and 30 years on its more relevant today in perfectionist audio than ever.
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October 13, 2018, 05:26 AM #33
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Re: Can you hear inverted phase
I have no definitive opinion about this subject.
Saying better, i think there´s more to discovery about phase than some scientists have reached in the early days of the mysterys of the sound.
And yes, probably we are yet in these early days of discovery. If we think that the universe is made of vibration, and that vibration induces a frequencie, a sound, the first sound, the sound of "God"... If we think about all that we don´t know about magnetic fields, and how they are important to achieve the ultimate excellence in sound reprodution, maybe we have to conclude there´s a long way to run.
That explain why, some times the record A sounds better than record B, and after some up grade (a cable, a fuse) the record B sounds better than A.
I get confused when, after making a new power cable, the sound gets "right" and i think to myself; What is better? I´m hearing the same instruments, the same detail, but every thing gets more quiet, each instrument is better located and defined in space. What happened? Phase correction?
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October 13, 2018, 06:08 AM #34
Re: Can you hear inverted phase
It means there are factors that can make it more or less audible. Your Giyas aren't cheap.
Your initial question of whether it is or isn't audible has long been established. Whether better/worse/preferred has not. You said so yourself in first post.
The vast majority of stereo recordings are studio constructs of unknown provenance. There is no "absolute phase".
I'm quite familiar with DSP. I can and do linearize phase in my speakers. I'm also not an audiophile, so I do account for self deception/delusion in testing, accounting for such factors by using an ABX box. I'm quite aware of what phase inversion to random recordings as well as specific test material does.
Ironically, the AES meet next weekend will feature..you guessed it, a phase linearized system demo http://www.aes.org/blog/2018/9/live-...yer-to-present
Glad you includes a phase switch in your software. Options are good, even for folks with constant unease.
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October 13, 2018, 08:41 AM #35
Re: Can you hear inverted phase
Larry - Thanks for your effort to better explain absolute phase. One further clarification I'd like to make is regarding your second paragraph and 'pushing' vs. 'pulling'. Since we're dealing with musical signals which are composed of AC sine waves, the difference is actually only in whether it pushes or pulls on the first half of the sine wave. So for example if an instrument's actual sound is generated as push-pull, if the system has inverted absolute phase it would instead be reproduced as pull-push. So it's not actually as simple as comparing positive pressure vs. negative pressure, but rather only which pressure occurs first in the waveform's cycle.
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AudioShark forum is a leading forum site for High End Audio Discussion, Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater System Discussion, Best Home Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater Installation Discussion etc.
The AudioShark forum was created for sharing the passion of high-end Audio. We have Audiophiles from all over the world participating and sharing their knowledge. From novice to experts, you will find a friendly environment for discussing about High End Audio, Stereo System, Home Theater System, Home Stereo System, Home Theater Installation, Amplifiers, Speakers, Subwoofers, Integrated System, Acoustic treatments & Digital Room Corrections and many more.
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Industry Participation Disclosure : The owner and administrator of Audioshark is the owner of Suncoast Audio LLC in Sarasota Florida. Suncoast Audio has a full brick and mortar presence in Sarasota with several great show rooms with many world class brands. More information can be found at http://www.suncoastaudio.com
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Thank you for making me feel less tech challenged.:whew: FYI, The 866 works great as a straight, no nonsense integrated with DAC.
Boulder 866 app