The MSB Premier review I didn't write

[Billt1]

I had never written a review before but felt my experience was so compelling it was time to. I was to include my experiences and references as a longtime Audiophile. Listing some of the many Audio shows I have attend in this country and abroad as to use as a reference to build and verify my own systems. I would list some of my equipment current and past to show the journey. I would talk about some the great dealers and distributors I am proud to call my friends . Alas time does not seem to allow so I will summarize in the last paragraph with a note I sent to Vince Galbo MSB National sales manager . This part of the journey began when I sold my Esoteric K-01x SACD player in order to replace it with the Esoteric N-01 network player. I no longer spin disc as all my files are on a ROON Nucleolus + server . Having sold my Esoteric I called the dealer to order the N-01 and discovered there were none in the USA. He suggested , actually pleaded with me , to try one of the new MSB DACs just being released . I was completely sure this was a waste of time as I knew the Esoteric was an amazing piece and really wanted the N-01. I obliged because now I didn't have a DAC in the main system and could kill some time waiting for the Esoteric to become available. Just in case though I had him send me one like I would want just in the very off chance I would want to keep it. So I received a black Premier with 2nd power supply , Renderer V2 and XLR out. The following is only one of the many accolades I had sent Vince in the last month " I continue to believe that if anyone were to A/B to any other DAC anywhere near similar price point they could only reach the same conclusion I have. Until now I have never noticed or thought out my listening habits. In my highly resolving Analog set up I keep saying “ Just one more side” and never feel I want to move away. In my digital system although I have had very highly resolving digital frontends that sounded very, very good I tended to listen for about a half an hour before I felt it was time to go do something else. I never questioned that until now. The MSB Premier DAC has been in my system for about a month and it has revolutionized my listening habits. Frankly I never want to move away. I get up early ( often now late for work because I was listening too long) and stay up late just to listen a little longer. In the 40 years I have been in this hobby, reflecting back I can only remember that happening previously when a turntable was the source."

[Mike]

Bill - this is an excellent write up and encapsulates how we all feel about the MSB DAC's. Your Premier is outstanding and as you say, addictive.

[sakso136]

I had never written a review before but felt my experience was so compelling it was time to. I was to include my experiences and references as a longtime Audiophile. Listing some of the many Audio shows I have attend in this country and abroad as to use as a reference to build and verify my own systems. I would list some of my equipment current and past to show the journey. I would talk about some the great dealers and distributors I am proud to call my friends . Alas time does not seem to allow so I will summarize in the last paragraph with a note I sent to Vince Galbo MSB National sales manager . This part of the journey began when I sold my Esoteric K-01x SACD player in order to replace it with the Esoteric N-01 network player. I no longer spin disc as all my files are on a ROON Nucleolus + server . Having sold my Esoteric I called the dealer to order the N-01 and discovered there were none in the USA. He suggested , actually pleaded with me , to try one of the new MSB DACs just being released . I was completely sure this was a waste of time as I knew the Esoteric was an amazing piece and really wanted the N-01. I obliged because now I didn't have a DAC in the main system and could kill some time waiting for the Esoteric to become available. Just in case though I had him send me one like I would want just in the very off chance I would want to keep it. So I received a black Premier with 2nd power supply , Renderer V2 and XLR out. The following is only one of the many accolades I had sent Vince in the last month " I continue to believe that if anyone were to A/B to any other DAC anywhere near similar price point they could only reach the same conclusion I have. Until now I have never noticed or thought out my listening habits. In my highly resolving Analog set up I keep saying “ Just one more side” and never feel I want to move away. In my digital system although I have had very highly resolving digital frontends that sounded very, very good I tended to listen for about a half an hour before I felt it was time to go do something else. I never questioned that until now. The MSB Premier DAC has been in my system for about a month and it has revolutionized my listening habits. Frankly I never want to move away. I get up early ( often now late for work because I was listening too long) and stay up late just to listen a little longer. In the 40 years I have been in this hobby, reflecting back I can only remember that happening previously when a turntable was the source."

Very nice review bill.
Can you please elaborate in wich mode are you using it: dac only or dac and preamp?
To wich amplification?
More specific about sound type: warm, bright..... etc
How transparent,.......
Thks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[joeinid]

Congratulations Bill! Great news.

[Ritmo]

Congratulations Bill! I had the Premier in my system for a weekend (courtesy of Mike) and I enjoyed it very much.

[Billt1]

Very nice review bill.
Can you please elaborate in wich mode are you using it: dac only or dac and preamp?
To wich amplification?
More specific about sound type: warm, bright..... etc
How transparent,.......
Thks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Used as a DAC only, Volume off DSD Optimized ,low output . Plays to VAC Signature MkII Preamp to Aesthetic Atlas Signature amp to Wilson Sasha II , Transparent Cable Reference gen 5 , many tweeks. If someone tells me how to do it I will list the system in my tag line. How does it sound? Real. I find myself listening at much higher levels because those "ice pick in the ear" high transients are gone

[KeithR]

Bill, as you probably have read I am in 100% agreement. I actually spent Saturday doing swaps against my Brinkmann rig - its a really tough decision and the only dac i've heard that is even competitive. The rest of the dacs (including my former Analog, Formula, Vega, etc.) just sound like "good digital." MSB has blurred the line between digital and analog that honestly creates a new class of sound.

What analog setup do you have?

[Billt1]

Bill, as you probably have read I am in 100% agreement. I actually spent Saturday doing swaps against my Brinkmann rig - its a really tough decision and the only dac i've heard that is even competitive. The rest of the dacs (including my former Analog, Formula, Vega, etc.) just sound like "good digital." MSB has blurred the line between digital and analog that honestly creates a new class of sound.

What analog setup do you have?

In a separate room:
SME 20/3 with SME V tonearm, Dynavector te kaitora rua , Sutherland prototype current gain ( now called phonoloco) phono stage, T+A HV3000PA integrated , Vienna Acoustic List speakers , Audience SX cabling and conditioning , many tweeks

[KeithR]

That's a beautiful looking system - i'd love to have that big, symmetric room!

I should also add that an analog friend who can't listen to digital for more than 5 minutes was very, very impressed with the MSB Premier and Reference dacs at our local dealer.

[Cincy2]

Count me in the group that can't live without an MSB DAC. Just beyond comparisons.

Cincy

[Al M.]

The following is only one of the many accolades I had sent Vince in the last month " I continue to believe that if anyone were to A/B to any other DAC anywhere near similar price point they could only reach the same conclusion I have. Until now I have never noticed or thought out my listening habits. In my highly resolving Analog set up I keep saying “ Just one more side” and never feel I want to move away. In my digital system although I have had very highly resolving digital frontends that sounded very, very good I tended to listen for about a half an hour before I felt it was time to go do something else. I never questioned that until now. The MSB Premier DAC has been in my system for about a month and it has revolutionized my listening habits. Frankly I never want to move away. I get up early ( often now late for work because I was listening too long) and stay up late just to listen a little longer. In the 40 years I have been in this hobby, reflecting back I can only remember that happening previously when a turntable was the source."

Fortunately I can say the same thing about my current DAC, I am addicted to listening to it for hours on end. What you say does not make me understand the sound of the MSB any better. Could you please be more specific? Thanks.

[apdoc2004]

Can anyone comment on the sound quality of the MSB Premier vs the Discrete DACs? I wonder how the Discrete DAC with the optional Premier powerbase would compare to the Premier DAC (without the powerbase).
Thanks,
Anshul

[KeithR]

Fortunately I can say the same thing about my current DAC, I am addicted to listening to it for hours on end. What you say does not make me understand the sound of the MSB any better. Could you please be more specific? Thanks.

We've answered this line of questioning multiples times, Al. Why don't you simply call Vince or Goodwins and inquire about a demo instead. Bring your Yggy along...the differences with be *very* significant.

[Al M.]

We've answered this line of questioning multiples times, Al. Why don't you simply call Vince or Goodwins and inquire about a demo instead. Bring your Yggy along...the differences with be *very* significant.

Keith, I am interested in Billt1's view.

[mintakax]

I'm sure your system sounds wonderful, but its that clock that really ties the room together

Seriously though, I've been auditioning an MSB Discrete DAC in my house for the last 5 days and it is really growing on me. I will soon have the second power supply and I hope that adds to the sweetness. Your review has really caused me to wonder about the Premier. Maybe next years birthday present ?

[Mike Lavigne]

last night I was listening to a 30ips 1/2" 1st gen master dub of solo piano on my big Studer A-820, and also listening to a native quad dsd version from the same mic feed (same piano solo recording) with the MSB Select II.

there is nothing like 30ips 1/2" tape. but the digital did not suck. not heard any other digital do that. MSB is special. not heard the Premier or Discrete versions, but hope to this weekend at RMAF.

[Billt1]

Keith, I am interested in Billt1's view.

What I hear is subjective, room and system dependent. I could use the typical " Great sound stage , imaging , depth , ease of delivery" .All would be true to me in my system. What I tried to convey is something happened when installing the MSB Premier that was so dramatic it changed my 30 year digital listening habit. It's the highest endorsement I can give. I gave some insight into my journey of many decades and many systems for reference so one could judge the potential level of my understanding. As stated earlier in this thread, working with a dealer is imperative. It was not until I was allowed to home demo did I understand the level of what The Premier offered. Traveling the globe to visit high end shows I have heard some of the finest and most expense equipment in the world. That's nice , fun but not the tell all.Having a relationship with a local dealer is the key to building the best system through home demo. If you live near southern NH I can offer an endorsement.

[Al M.]

What I hear is subjective, room and system dependent. I could use the typical " Great sound stage , imaging , depth , ease of delivery" .All would be true to me in my system. What I tried to convey is something happened when installing the MSB Premier that was so dramatic it changed my 30 year digital listening habit. It's the highest endorsement I can give. I gave some insight into my journey of many decades and many systems for reference so one could judge the potential level of my understanding. As stated earlier in this thread, working with a dealer is imperative. It was not until I was allowed to home demo did I understand the level of what The Premier offered. Traveling the globe to visit high end shows I have heard some of the finest and most expense equipment in the world. That's nice , fun but not the tell all.Having a relationship with a local dealer is the key to building the best system through home demo. If you live near southern NH I can offer an endorsement.

Thanks. Unfortunately, this does not bring me closer to an answer. In any case, yes, I know about Fidelis in NH, and I already talked with a sales person who switched over there recently.

[Billt1]

I had never written a review before but felt my experience was so compelling it was time to. I was to include my experiences and references as a longtime Audiophile. Listing some of the many Audio shows I have attend in this country and abroad as to use as a reference to build and verify my own systems. I would list some of my equipment current and past to show the journey. I would talk about some the great dealers and distributors I am proud to call my friends . Alas time does not seem to allow so I will summarize in the last paragraph with a note I sent to Vince Galbo MSB National sales manager . This part of the journey began when I sold my Esoteric K-01x SACD player in order to replace it with the Esoteric N-01 network player. I no longer spin disc as all my files are on a ROON Nucleolus + server . Having sold my Esoteric I called the dealer to order the N-01 and discovered there were none in the USA. He suggested , actually pleaded with me , to try one of the new MSB DACs just being released . I was completely sure this was a waste of time as I knew the Esoteric was an amazing piece and really wanted the N-01. I obliged because now I didn't have a DAC in the main system and could kill some time waiting for the Esoteric to become available. Just in case though I had him send me one like I would want just in the very off chance I would want to keep it. So I received a black Premier with 2nd power supply , Renderer V2 and XLR out. The following is only one of the many accolades I had sent Vince in the last month " I continue to believe that if anyone were to A/B to any other DAC anywhere near similar price point they could only reach the same conclusion I have. Until now I have never noticed or thought out my listening habits. In my highly resolving Analog set up I keep saying “ Just one more side” and never feel I want to move away. In my digital system although I have had very highly resolving digital frontends that sounded very, very good I tended to listen for about a half an hour before I felt it was time to go do something else. I never questioned that until now. The MSB Premier DAC has been in my system for about a month and it has revolutionized my listening habits. Frankly I never want to move away. I get up early ( often now late for work because I was listening too long) and stay up late just to listen a little longer. In the 40 years I have been in this hobby, reflecting back I can only remember that happening previously when a turntable was the source."

When I acquired the MSB Premier with second power supply and renderer V2 it was at the top of my comfort level for expense. One of the things that really appealed to me besides it's amazing sound was the opportunity for easy upgrade. I figured over the next year or so I would invest in those upgrades. Well the cost /benefit of those upgrades as well as working with my dealer for home demo has really accelerated the acquisition . I have been asked to provide A vs B vs B Vs C vs A on Femto 93 clock / Powerbase impressions for those who want to know what to upgrade first . I will follow up with that at a later date but for now I will leave a brief description of my experience as I installed first the clock then added the powerbase a few days later.
Buying the MSB Premier was like acquiring a thoroughbred race horse . Changing the clock was like adding a golden saddle. Adding the powerbase was like putting firecrackers in its ass.
To slightly expand, the clock added smoothness ( hard to believe it was going to get much better than the stock clock) and the the powerbase provided incredible attack and speed. Yes I will at a later date satisfy those wanting to know the A's vs the B's but for the next week I am only going to enjoy what I am hearing.

[Golum]

In a separate room:
SME 20/3 with SME V tonearm, Dynavector te kaitora rua , Sutherland prototype current gain ( now called phonoloco) phono stage, T+A HV3000PA integrated , Vienna Acoustic List speakers , Audience SX cabling and conditioning , many tweeks

Love your speakers as they remind me of mine :-). A bit of off topic from MSB :-)

[KeithR]

Thanks for the teaser, Bill

I heard the top of the line Esoteric SACD player on Rockports a few weeks ago and couldn't understand the hub bub. Relatively dry and dead sounding digital. Until we switched to analog I was disappointed. I also heard the new dCS Bartok a few weeks prior and the system sounded "digital."

I continue to think most of the other dacs I hear sound like "good digital" with MSB the only one that gives the best of analog and digital.

[Mike]

When I acquired the MSB Premier with second power supply and renderer V2 it was at the top of my comfort level for expense. One of the things that really appealed to me besides it's amazing sound was the opportunity for easy upgrade. I figured over the next year or so I would invest in those upgrades. Well the cost /benefit of those upgrades as well as working with my dealer for home demo has really accelerated the acquisition . I have been asked to provide A vs B vs B Vs C vs A on Femto 93 clock / Powerbase impressions for those who want to know what to upgrade first . I will follow up with that at a later date but for now I will leave a brief description of my experience as I installed first the clock then added the powerbase a few days later.
Buying the MSB Premier was like acquiring a thoroughbred race horse . Changing the clock was like adding a golden saddle. Adding the powerbase was like putting firecrackers in its ass.
To slightly expand, the clock added smoothness ( hard to believe it was going to get much better than the stock clock) and the the powerbase provided incredible attack and speed. Yes I will at a later date satisfy those wanting to know the A's vs the B's but for the next week I am only going to enjoy what I am hearing.

Thanks for the write up Bill.


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[Mike]

Thanks for the teaser, Bill

I heard the top of the line Esoteric SACD player on Rockports a few weeks ago and couldn't understand the hub bub. Relatively dry and dead sounding digital. Until we switched to analog I was disappointed. I also heard the new dCS Bartok a few weeks prior and the system sounded "digital."

I continue to think most of the other dacs I hear sound like "good digital" with MSB the only one that gives the best of analog and digital.

Agreed.


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[Ritmo]

Billt1 -

Your quote of...

“Adding the powerbase was like putting firecrackers in its ass.”

is one of the funniest and most telling lines I’ve come across in audio. A good one!

[brodricj]

..I heard the top of the line Esoteric SACD player...

As in, Grandioso K1?

[Billt1]

I mean no insult to any other DAC or system " As I continue to listen and try to come up explanations for what I am hearing it’s like all my previous digital systems as good as some of them were, were just wrong."

As I write this I know it sounds insulting , it's not meant to be. It's just my experience in my systems your results may vary but oh boy am I happy.

[bzr]

The MSB trail is like the Matrix, lefty or righty, which rabbit hole??? The most worst thing about it..... , they all sound good, bastards!!!

[Al M.]

I mean no insult to any other DAC or system " As I continue to listen and try to come up explanations for what I am hearing it’s like all my previous digital systems as good as some of them were, were just wrong."

As I write this I know it sounds insulting , it's not meant to be. It's just my experience in my systems your results may vary but oh boy am I happy.

What exactly is just wrong with all the other digital? Such a strong statement of yours requires clarification.

[Priaptor]

In a separate room:
SME 20/3 with SME V tonearm, Dynavector te kaitora rua , Sutherland prototype current gain ( now called phonoloco) phono stage, T+A HV3000PA integrated , Vienna Acoustic List speakers , Audience SX cabling and conditioning , many tweeks

Bill,

I don't like to comment on people's rooms, but I really like what I see in that picture. If a picture speaks a thousand words I bet it sounds awesome. Not familiar with the equipment but the setup looks great. Congrats.

I also love that there is no coffee table in front of your chair and the perspective from your chair seems to indicate the "right" height of the chair back.

Howie

[Billt1]

What exactly is just wrong with all the other digital? Such a strong statement of yours requires clarification.

I realize it was a strong statement. I have spoke to this many times now that MSB has changed my listening habits. I have been in this hobby for 40 years, traveled across the country and abroad attending many audio shows per year, visit high end audio shops 3 times a month and read every major audio publication all in an effort to understand and have a base line reference for what I am doing. I can only speak to my own experience with the products that I have owned. Many digital front ends I have owned have been spectacular, articulate, highly resolving and sometimes almost startling. That being said , unlike my analog system in another room , there has always been an underlining limit to the amount of time I would listen , usually about 30 minutes. It never was that apparent to me until it changed after acquiring the Premier . My listening secession went from 30 minutes to hours and hasn't changed for months. Even though previously my system was pretty good I was always on the hunt, how can I make this better? There is going to be a cable, conditioner, powercord, amp or something to bring me to the next step. The MSB DAC revolutionized my digital listening habits to the extent I do not dare to even breathe on my system, at least for now. My statements are meant to bring no disrespect to any other quality product only an offering of my personal experience .

[Al M.]

I realize it was a strong statement. I have spoke to this many times now that MSB has changed my listening habits. I have been in this hobby for 40 years, traveled across the country and abroad attending many audio shows per year, visit high end audio shops 3 times a month and read every major audio publication all in an effort to understand and have a base line reference for what I am doing. I can only speak to my own experience with the products that I have owned. Many digital front ends I have owned have been spectacular, articulate, highly resolving and sometimes almost startling. That being said , unlike my analog system in another room , there has always been an underlining limit to the amount of time I would listen , usually about 30 minutes. It never was that apparent to me until it changed after acquiring the Premier . My listening secession went from 30 minutes to hours and hasn't changed for months. Even though previously my system was pretty good I was always on the hunt, how can I make this better? There is going to be a cable, conditioner, powercord, amp or something to bring me to the next step. The MSB DAC revolutionized my digital listening habits to the extent I do not dare to even breathe on my system, at least for now. My statements are meant to bring no disrespect to any other quality product only an offering of my personal experience .

Thanks, but you are essentially only restating what you said in your opening post. Let me ask differently: which sonic attributes allow you to listen for much longer than with your previous digital? What was 'wrong' with your previous digital that prevented long listening sessions? Does the MSB digital sound more 'analog' to allow for longer listening sessions, and if so, how would you characterize that 'analog' sound?

Please note that I don't have the same problems of not being able to listen to digital for a long time: digital is my only source, and I love it, for hours on end. So you have to help me out a bit here.

Thanks
Al

[Billt1]

Al,
I have a fairly highly resolving analog rig in another room I can and want to listen to for hours . Many of my digital systems have been more detailed and dynamic than the analog rig but I would have to say it was the digital edge that after a period of time made me want to move away. I now have all the detail and dynamics ( and more) without the edge. Any other descriptions I could add only sound cliche
Bill

[Al M.]

Al,
I have a fairly highly resolving analog rig in another room I can and want to listen to for hours . Many of my digital systems have been more detailed and dynamic than the analog rig but I would have to say it was the digital edge that after a period of time made me want to move away. I now have all the detail and dynamics ( and more) without the edge. Any other descriptions I could add only sound cliche
Bill

Thanks. What is 'digital edge'?

[Mike]

Thanks. What is 'digital edge'?

It’s bite, excess sibilance, a tipped up sound and very processed sounding - not natural - resulting in digititus.



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[Skanda]

it sounds absolutely crazy to describe something as digital edge or to make these types of claims about digital since "_all_ dacs do is _just_ convert the 1's and 0's to analog" but Mike is spot on about this. i personally believe there is no such thing as too much detail to too much transient attack and speed, the problem occurs when those attributes are not well balanced with tone. so you end up getting this highly detailed and fast sound which is great at first - airy and revealing...but an hour or more into a session you start noticing that a voice sounds a bit glassy , a violin sounds sharp - unnaturally sharp, a cello has the low end attack but is missing that meaty quality. the best way i can describe it is increasing the sharpness, contrast, and brightness on a tv - you can see the differences and the brilliance of the screen but once you notice that grass doesnt look that green in real life or snow doesn't look that white, the illusion crumbles and you notice how strained your eyes feel.

[Mike]

The key is also to have a base line. For me, I use the Kronos Pro and Studer 810. When I had the MSB home, I was comparing it to my vinyl rig. I kept thinking, “it doesn’t sound like vinyl.”

It wasn’t until I fired up the Studer (with Doshi 3.0 tape preamp) where I could find an equal competitor. When I went back and forth with so many tapes, even comparing to the red book, I said to myself “that’s it, that’s what the MSB sounds like.”

You can listen to a good R2R setup for hours and you can listen to the MSB for hours.


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[Al M.]

It’s bite, excess sibilance, a tipped up sound and very processed sounding - not natural - resulting in digititus.



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Ok, but to avoid that I don't need an MSB. My Yggdrasil DAC suffices for a natural sound. Some residual digital edge that I heard until recently was taken out by ceiling diffusers in my listening room. But that's acoustics, not electronics. Even an MSB Select II with two power bases would not have solved that issue.

It seems to me that often the 'problems' with digital have a source other than the digital itself. Digital, unless it is voiced to be mellow, just ruthlessly reveals the problems elsewhere in system and room, perhaps more so than a lot of analog set-ups do. Not that 'digititis' from digital itself does not exist -- it does. My previous DACs had some, compared to the Yggdrasil. But even then, the digital-inherent digititis was mostly less than the 'digititis' coming from other problems that I solved over the years.

[Skanda]

Ok, but to avoid that I don't need an MSB. My Yggdrasil DAC suffices for a natural sound. Some residual digital edge that I heard until recently was taken out by ceiling diffusers in my listening room. But that's acoustics, not electronics. Even an MSB Select II with two power bases would not have solved that issue.

don't disagree with you here. i have an older dac, a chord qbd76hdsd being fed by usb from laptop. digital has come a long way and 100% of listening is digital so i figured i'd try a top tier dac to see what i can discern. specifically, i got a rockna wavedream signature on the way and i'll see how that compares to the chord. the chord was a big step up from my previous dac, a fostex hpa8 - which is still an excellent dac for most entry level systems.

while i agree that room acoustics may be leading to digital edge and i agree that an msb stack or any dac made of femtounobtanium is not going to fix that, i posit that not all dacs will let out the same noise that results in those interactions. i'm thinking of it like this - if you put a big speaker in a little room you'll get tons of port resonance and all sorts of bass issues regardless of this speaker's price. if you take a speaker of similar dimensions but it's sealed you probably won't have the same issue because they play differently. my assumption - and i can only test this through trying some different pieces is that the biggest difference i'm going to hear between dacs is the powersupply and output stage. i might get more resolution too as the rockna is much newer compared to chord (keep in mind that this was a chord flagship before the dave - but technology continues to march forward). my rambling, meandering, and possibly incorrect point is that since every piece of gear has it's own sound signature, some signatures will probably play better in one room vs. another.

any more details on various dacs you tried when deciding on a yggdrasil and the differences you found would be great to read (the yggdrasil was high on my list but i opted for the rockna due to a rec from a friend who's ears and taste are similar to mine)

[KeithR]

Please note that I don't have the same problems of not being able to listen to digital for a long time: digital is my only source, and I love it, for hours on end. So you have to help me out a bit here.

Thanks
Al

You don't know what you don't know.

[Al M.]

You don't know what you don't know.

That's why I asked, didn't I?

On the other hand, you don't know how my digital sounds in my system. Even if you have heard the Yggdrasil DAC elsewhere.

[KeithR]

That's why I asked, didn't I?

On the other hand, you don't know how my digital sounds in my system. Even if you have heard the Yggdrasil DAC elsewhere.

Al, more like you continue to try to justify your own value purchase. Until you actually borrow a new MSB architecture dac you simply won't know anything.

[Skanda]

KeithR, respectfully, I am not getting that sense from Al. It seems like he and others (like myself) who have not had an opportunity to hear msb/their top tier offerings would like to know the basic sound signature of the msb. This has been a difficult question to answer - from what I understand, it's special and not fatiguing, but otherwise I can't tell decipher much about the sound. Meanwhile, it's relatively easy to get some user feedback on the sound signature of various amps, and speakers. I get it, "it sounds like music" but that's not super helpful. All that said, I (and others i'm sure) appreciate Billt1's listening notes and details and hope he continues to update us

[Al M.]

Al, more like you continue to try to justify your own value purchase. Until you actually borrow a new MSB architecture dac you simply won't know anything.

Keith, I am not trying to justify anything. It is true that I won't know what MSB owners mean until I have heard a recent MSB in my system. On the other hand I am baffled at what I am supposed to be missing given what I hear in my system, compared to what is claimed about MSB. And as I pointed out, you cannot know what I hear in my system.

[Al M.]

KeithR, respectfully, I am not getting that sense from Al. It seems like he and others (like myself) who have not had an opportunity to hear msb/their top tier offerings would like to know the basic sound signature of the msb. This has been a difficult question to answer - from what I understand, it's special and not fatiguing, but otherwise I can't tell decipher much about the sound. Meanwhile, it's relatively easy to get some user feedback on the sound signature of various amps, and speakers. I get it, "it sounds like music" but that's not super helpful. All that said, I (and others i'm sure) appreciate Billt1's listening notes and details and hope he continues to update us

Thank you, Skanda. You precisely put the finger on the problem (while I wrote my last post).

[Al M.]

any more details on various dacs you tried when deciding on a yggdrasil and the differences you found would be great to read (the yggdrasil was high on my list but i opted for the rockna due to a rec from a friend who's ears and taste are similar to mine)

Let me report on some differences between the DACs that I have owned in more recent times:

Wadia 12 (from 1994 with opamp mod 1997, but owned until 2013)
Berkeley Alpha DAC 2
Yggdrasil

As far as natural sound and digital edge goes, this is best exemplified on orchestral massed violins. The Wadia 12 was not very detailed, and the silky sheen on the violin sound was absent. The Berkeley was much more detailed, and for the first time I heard silky sheen on violin sound from a DAC, thus a much more natural sound, and there was less glassy hardness. Yet the Yggy portrays an even more natural and finely resolved sound of massed violins, with even less glassy hardness and harshness, especially on fortissimo passages where the Berkeley still sometimes had a tougher time. And most recently, the violin sound has further improved quite substantially with the ceiling diffusers, which eliminate distorting reflections in my room.

The difference in naturalness of sound between the Berkeley and the Yggy is also evident in the timbral palette. Trumpet and solo violin can sound with more body on the Yggy, yet at the same time the high register of trumpet can also sound more piercing and brighter on the Yggy, more in line with live sound. High registered massed violins also sound brighter on the Yggy, whereas the Berkeley is too midrange-y on this material. On the other hand, flute usually sounds darker on the Yggy, also more in line with the real sound of the instrument.

Rhythm & timing took a huge leap forward between the Wadia 12 and the Berkeley; the latter was the very first DAC that I heard that could truly rock (the Wadia was quite good on jazz, even though also there the Berkeley was better). But as good as the Berkeley was, the Yggy is even better on rhythm & timing, a true rhythmic animal -- I haven't yet heard better rhythm from a turntable.

Do I think the Yggy is perfect? No. It might have even more body and weight of sound, for example, even though it is quite good in this area. It is also better on body from lower midrange to mid-bass than, for example, the dCS Vivaldi; the latter has better deep bass (I have heard numerous direct comparisons between Yggy and Vivaldi in a friend's system).

[Al M.]

it sounds absolutely crazy to describe something as digital edge or to make these types of claims about digital since "_all_ dacs do is _just_ convert the 1's and 0's to analog" but Mike is spot on about this. i personally believe there is no such thing as too much detail to too much transient attack and speed, the problem occurs when those attributes are not well balanced with tone. so you end up getting this highly detailed and fast sound which is great at first - airy and revealing...but an hour or more into a session you start noticing that a voice sounds a bit glassy , a violin sounds sharp - unnaturally sharp, a cello has the low end attack but is missing that meaty quality. the best way i can describe it is increasing the sharpness, contrast, and brightness on a tv - you can see the differences and the brilliance of the screen but once you notice that grass doesnt look that green in real life or snow doesn't look that white, the illusion crumbles and you notice how strained your eyes feel.

True. On the other hand, the converse can also hold: transients may be softened, and not sharp enough. This is sometimes found on less than stellar analog playback systems, or on LP pressings of lesser quality (top analog playback of a great LP is a different matter). Digital can also be made to sound more mellow than is realistic.

I am a bit suspicious when I hear about a non-fatiguing sound. Is the lack of fatigue due to a more perfect and realistic rendition of music, or due to a softening of sound?

[KeithR]

KeithR, respectfully, I am not getting that sense from Al. It seems like he and others (like myself) who have not had an opportunity to hear msb/their top tier offerings would like to know the basic sound signature of the msb. This has been a difficult question to answer - from what I understand, it's special and not fatiguing, but otherwise I can't tell decipher much about the sound. Meanwhile, it's relatively easy to get some user feedback on the sound signature of various amps, and speakers. I get it, "it sounds like music" but that's not super helpful. All that said, I (and others i'm sure) appreciate Billt1's listening notes and details and hope he continues to update us

Please note the many MSB comments and threads where the MSB signature has been described here and at WBF. Al has questioned these threads many times. At some point you just have to hear one- it is revelatory (at least for me) and has changed completely what I expect of digital.

Another thing, there hasn’t been a single Ref or Select dac on Audiogon for several years now. Says a lot.

[Jack]

You might also want to note that no matter who else posts anything non-superlative about the MSB DAC's Al or otherwise the same small group jumps in as if to defend and justify their purchases. Whether you understand it or not the rest of the forum doesn't need to buy or run out and listen to a "new generation" MSB DAC if they are happy with what they have or can't justify the "over the top" cost. Some of the exact same people calling the MSB the "next great thing" were doing the same thing about Berkley, DCS, Lampizator and a couple of other in just the last couple of years.

[Al M.]

You might also want to note that no matter who else posts anything non-superlative about the MSB DAC's Al or otherwise the same small group jumps in as if to defend and justify their purchases.

I am sorry, but you misunderstand. I am truly interested in how an MSB sounds, and I will be happy to audition one some day, preferably at home. I also had an exchange with a representative of MSB on another forum, in which I asked some questions about the technical concept of their DAC architecture and was satisfied about its elegance and efficiency in handling diverse format inputs, to the point that it raised my interest. I stated such at the time.

However, I am continually frustrated at the inability of the MSB proponents here and elsewhere to describe in meaningful ways what is so special about the new generation MSBs. Non-fatiguing, musical, analog sounding etc. are too vague descriptions to be informative. So is lack of 'digital edge': other DACs can be described that way too. Skanda has summarized above (post #42) the frustration with the current descriptions very well. When I then criticize the insufficient descriptions, I am referred to having to hear an MSB DAC to 'understand', and am attacked for only wanting to justify my own DAC (which I stated above, is not perfect either). Neither is helpful. Sure, you need to hear gear for yourself, but stating that obvious fact is no excuse for not efficiently trying to communicate.

[Mike]

I’ve taken a total of 3 Schiit Yggy DAC’s on trade. So, I’ve had some time to play with them. The last one was the latest version. It was fine sounding, reminded me of the Lampi Amber DAC. The Yggy won’t offend like a Mytek or some others out there in it’s price range. And it certainly isn’t hyper detailed like some DAC’s out there. And doesn’t sound analytical.

But IMO, the MSB Discrete is on another level in terms of realism, fleshiness and naturalness of vocals, tonality, bass, 3D, sound staging, etc. A good example was Karen Carpenters voice. The stock Discrete fleshed out her vocals so much more, sounded so much more natural and less processed, had more “weight” to the overall sound, among other things.

If I remember correctly, the stock power supply for the Discrete is about the size and weight of the entire Yggy DAC.

At the end of the day, in the price range - say under $4k, the Yggy is very good. If I was building a budget system, it would be a strong contender, as would the new Lumin D2. But even at $5k and beyond, you start to introduce some better DAC’s, like the Hugo TT2.

Ultimately, I really feel the MSB DAC’s sound like tape - my reference point.