Are subwoofers bad for music?

[Mr Peabody]

Also, if that was a standard problem you'd think speakers would be designed with two separate cabinets, one for bass and the other for imaging other frequencies.

It comes down to personal choice.

People talk about flat response, they think they want that and flat is the goal, but, when many hear flat they find it distasteful. My theory is that's why many prefer to set up their surround sound manually opposed to using and trusting auto set up.

I don’t mean to be difficult here, but will say my piece and leave this topic forever. There is no evidence that this statement is true. Regardless of how many times it is said. There are so many different situations, acoustical enviroments and room variations that need to be taken into account. And what about adding bass to a speaker that was designed to be full range. Adding a subwoofer is modifying the design parameters. And not always for the better.

If speakers are located based on imaging and sound staging alone, than the setup is wrong, Every aspect of performance should be taken into account. And to say one always is at the detriment of the other is circumspect.

I would much prefer an audiophile saying “because I like It that way”. I can respect that.

[Mr Peabody]

Respecting your opinion I did go back and read 30. I did find a point conflicting to me, "Why? Most times, when the mains are set up for optimum musical engagement - dynamics, presence & tone are good - that is not where the deeper bass is smoothest or deepest in the room. Done properly, locating the mains for best performance is the only way you have any hope of integrating the subs properly. If the mains are uneven through the bass, how will you ever get the subs to blend flawlessly?"

So do we set speakers up for optimum bass so the sub blends and the rest of the sound you mentioned suffers, or, do we set the speakers up for the dynamics and engagement and never get the sub set up "properly" because that position is where bass is not smooth? You seem to indicate we can only have one or the other, either smooth bass or engaging/dynamic because if we hav engaging/dynamic bass is not smooth and subs can't be integrated properly.

Although not every set-up I have done needed subs, over 90% profited by having them, and very often, it was the large (expensive) "full-range" loudspeakers that profited most.

Done properly, it's rarely so much about the bass as it is about an increased sense of presence, of the musicians being present in the room, or you are more immersed into the event at the concert venue.

When I hear someone complaining about the subs not working well with a system, I find I always agree.

Why? The subs were not properly integrated with the mains.

Why? Most times, when the mains are set up for optimum musical engagement - dynamics, presence & tone are good - that is not where the deeper bass is smoothest or deepest in the room. Done properly, locating the mains for best performance is the only way you have any hope of integrating the subs properly. If the mains are uneven through the bass, how will you ever get the subs to blend flawlessly?

If you find that you occasionally want to go over & readjust the subs for a piece of music, then you have more work to do.

Note that I say subs - not sub. I used to advise my retail stereo clients to save their money until they could afford to buy two subs. IMO, one sub is generally worse than none.

If you are interested, I wrote a seven part series for Copper e-mag about subs - SUBWOOFERY.

It expounds on these ideas & more.

[Jim Smith]

Respecting your opinion I did go back and read 30. I did find a point conflicting to me, "Why? Most times, when the mains are set up for optimum musical engagement - dynamics, presence & tone are good - that is not where the deeper bass is smoothest or deepest in the room. Done properly, locating the mains for best performance is the only way you have any hope of integrating the subs properly. If the mains are uneven through the bass, how will you ever get the subs to blend flawlessly?"

So do we set speakers up for optimum bass so the sub blends and the rest of the sound you mentioned suffers, or, do we set the speakers up for the dynamics and engagement and never get the sub set up "properly" because that position is where bass is not smooth? You seem to indicate we can only have one or the other, either smooth bass or engaging/dynamic because if we hav engaging/dynamic bass is not smooth and subs can't be integrated properly.

To save space & time on this board, all of your questions - and more - are fully addressed in the Subwoofery series that I wrote for PS Audio's online Copper e-mag. I referenced it in Post #30.

[EmiLiuZ]

I'm just a youngster, but this is how I see it.

Isn't subs just an add-on to try to compensate of what your system is actually missing?
I mean.. If you're trying to implement subs to "fill the void" then I feel that you're off-track.. and perhaps your money is better invested else where.
When I've went to audio shows like munich where subs were on display and got demo'd I often end up feeling that maybe the subs brings some extra bass, but often over exaggerated/shallow and it produces sound not music.

[Phishphan]

They may not be ideal. But a speaker that provides the frequency response that a separate sub offers is outside of most budgets. Even the budgets of most audiophiles.


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[bzr]

I hear the perfect sub in my system whenever I choose..... which is about once in 5 systems .... that reason is I choose to... I have Wilson Benesch Torus Infrasonic Generators,... 2 of them, & yes I do know how to place a speaker...! In my honest opinion we need to hear things & evaluate, not slang....we need to develop our hearing & grow it.... Every piece of gear has it's place & timing,.... what's your's .......???

[the professor]

EXACTLY BINGO - you win!

Most of the ultra high end systems DO THIS!!!!!!!

Adding 2 subs to a system is to get the last 5% of the system -- maybe 2-3%. But most people seem to think of subs as a home theater Big bass. DUH - NO----- that is not what adding a sub to a 2 channel system is all about. And bad sub integration will destroy the music system. It has to be done right - if you can tell the sub is on by listening to the bass then you are not listening to music -- only part of it. It's the whole toe taping PRAT.

Again ----- MOST SYSTEMS should not have a pair of subs added. Improvement with money would be much better to spent on other items.

Subs are a ultimate add on.

Also, if that was a standard problem you'd think speakers would be designed with two separate cabinets, one for bass and the other for imaging other frequencies.

[Mechnutt]

I'm just a youngster, but this is how I see it.

Isn't subs just an add-on to try to compensate of what your system is actually missing?
I mean.. If you're trying to implement subs to "fill the void" then I feel that you're off-track.. and perhaps your money is better invested else where.
When I've went to audio shows like munich where subs were on display and got demo'd I often end up feeling that maybe the subs brings some extra bass, but often over exaggerated/shallow and it produces sound not music.

That all depends upon what the cause is for lack of bass. My Magnepan 1.6's only go down to 40-45hz. Adding my 2 subs filled the void in the bottom end seamlessly and listening to music that goes below 45hz was much more enjoyable.

I now use my dual subs with my PSB T3's even though they are supposed to go down to 25hz I believe. They just add a little impact on the lower notes that the PSB's can't give with their 7" woofers and narrow cabinets. There is no exaggerated bass the way I have them set up with the bottom bass ports plugged.

[Al M.]

I know it's been a month since the last post in this thread, but wanted to add to it...

What I have always noticed most with your "average" user who uses a sub or two is that they NEED to hear their subs in order to justify their purchase. They typically have the crossover set too high and definitely have the gain set too high, both of which make it very obvious there's subs in the room and they're drawing way too much attention to themselves.

Also, a lot of typical consumers look at specs and only care about how deep said subs are claimed to go. This may be fine for explosions and crashes in movies, but not necessarily for music. There are far more important features of a sub to look at that are capable of playing nicely with music. The top one above all else is known reputation for being good with music. Your average consumer would probably instantly look at brands such as Klipsch or SVS, whereas audiophiles in the know will be instantly looking at brands such as REL, JL Audio or Martin Logan.

I've gone through tons of subs over the years that were thought to be great quality, and they were for movies. But when it came to music, they were all slow and sluggish, muddied up the overall sound, some tended to be boomy no matter what, and all were simply not fit for music.

Other than a really big, really ugly pair of open baffle subwoofers I built years ago utilizing four 15" pro woofers (two woofers each), these little JL subs are the next best sounding subs I've ever owned. They're agile, light on their toes, are quick and detailed, keep up with whatever music I play, blend seamlessly with the mains, and simply get out of the way of the music and just disappear. When they are called upon to reproduce bass, it literally seems like the bass is coming from the main speakers.

So for me, I am definitely in the camp of "subwoofers are good for music".

Lastly, when I picked up my Sonus Faber Venere 1.5's last week, in one of the demo rooms, there were a pair of Wilson Audio Alexx powered by a pair of beautiful Dan D'Agostino Progression mono block amps. Tucked back behind those Wilson's were a line array (stack of three per channel) of REL G1 MkII's, so a total of six!

Not only were the Wilson Alexx's fully capable of disappearing, so were the G1 MkII's. Listening with your eyes closed, you just had a large wall of sound coming at you with plenty of natural bass extension that blended perfectly with the Alexx's. It was just one large wall of sound, which I might add was also capable of a very convincing holographic effect. The acoustics of the venue in the recording just engulfed you and transported you to the actual recording location. And it's funny that I just used the term "transported", because that's the name of that room/system, "The Transporter".

Great post, Charles. I also have JL Audio subs, F112v2, and they are blisteringly fast. Seamless integration with my monitors too, great rhythm & timing. You would never know that the deep bass comes out of the subs. My bass is excellent, and overall compares well with the one of my friends' full range speakers. And it goes deep(er).

Yes, subwoofers are good for music.

[Mike]

Great post, Charles. I also have JL Audio subs, F112v2, and they are blisteringly fast. Seamless integration with my monitors too, great rhythm & timing. You would never know that the deep bass comes out of the subs. My bass is excellent, and overall compares well with the one of my friends' full range speakers. And it goes deep(er).

Yes, subwoofers are good for music.

Agree on JL Audio. I always thought REL was better until they sounded so sluggish with the fast Magico M3 drivers. As Jim said, “they’re adding nothing and in fact taking away.” Then I heard JL subs at a clients with his S7’s and it was superb. Seamless in fact. That’s when I realized how slow the REL’s were with Magico and other fast speakers and the superiority of the JL Subs. To be fair, the REL’s might be fine with Harbeth for example. But I’m not sure I would take the chance today. JL v2 subs seem like a safer bet. There’s also some great subs from Mark Seaton, SVS and others.

Now Magico subs with Magico would be the ultimate!


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[Mechnutt]

Mike, I have to agree with you about REL subs. I found them to be a bit slow in comparison to other subs. It has been about 5 years since I heard a few REL's though. They were not a good match for my Magnepans. I found the Rhythmik along with the higher end Velodynes and Martin Logans to be much faster. The REL's are musical though.

I also feel that many sub owners have their subs set too loud or have the crossover set too high.

[CPP]

Mike, I have to agree with you about REL subs. I found them to be a bit slow in comparison to other subs. It has been about 5 years since I heard a few REL's though. They were not a good match for my Magnepans. I found the Rhythmik along with the higher end Velodynes and Martin Logans to be much faster. The REL's are musical though.

I also feel that many sub owners have their subs set too loud or have the crossover set too high.

I used to use REL subs, until a friend showed me Rythmik. I bought two and sold my REL R328 and got two Rythmik F12se. Couldn't be happier with HT and music.

[chops]

I'm perfectly content with my twin JL e110 subs. Small, powerful when need to be, highly flexible built-in crossovers, fast and articulate, and so far, blend in perfectly with every speaker I have tried them with.

And as for adding subs to mains that are fullrange, I added these two little JL subs to my pair of NHT 2.9's which easily dig deep on their own. Leaving them to play fullrange and adding in the JL's didn't exactly "add" more bass to the equation, rather added space, air and rhythm to the mix.

The way I have them dialed in in my current system with the small-ish Sonus Faber Venere 1.5's, they blend perfectly. Granted, it took days of tweaking gains, crossover points, phase, etc, etc with both subs to get them right, but in the end, you can close your eyes and listen to anything and not tell there's subs in the room. They simply add a natural extension to the Venere 1.5's as if they are much much larger floor standers.

[Toprahman]

Agree on JL Audio. I always thought REL was better until they sounded so sluggish with the fast Magico M3 drivers. As Jim said, “they’re adding nothing and in fact taking away.” Then I heard JL subs at a clients with his S7’s and it was superb. Seamless in fact. That’s when I realized how slow the REL’s were with Magico and other fast speakers and the superiority of the JL Subs. To be fair, the REL’s might be fine with Harbeth for example. But I’m not sure I would take the chance today. JL v2 subs seem like a safer bet. There’s also some great subs from Mark Seaton, SVS and others.

Now Magico subs with Magico would be the ultimate!


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There is no such thing as a fast or slow driver/subwoofer. I'm not trying to defend REL subs, but rather there was something else probably wrong with the sub.

This is from DATABASS's myth section...

"Often times people make the mistake that sound quality is in fact related to the woofers quickness, but in fact the woofer�s quickness is exactly related to SPL. The faster the driver, the higher the SPL. There are two ways to change a woofer�s speed. 1. Lower the frequency of the input its reproducing or 2. increase the volume. Sounds silly, but its true. There are many other factors that go into making a subwoofer sound fast or slow (boomy or tight) but that divulges into system design. What�s important about this myth is that speed is an inappropriate concept of sound quality."

[joeinid]

Welcome to the forum, thank you for joining.

[Mike]

There is no such thing as a fast or slow driver/subwoofer. I'm not trying to defend REL subs, but rather there was something else probably wrong with the sub.

This is from DATABASS's myth section...

"Often times people make the mistake that sound quality is in fact related to the woofers quickness, but in fact the woofer�s quickness is exactly related to SPL. The faster the driver, the higher the SPL. There are two ways to change a woofer�s speed. 1. Lower the frequency of the input its reproducing or 2. increase the volume. Sounds silly, but its true. There are many other factors that go into making a subwoofer sound fast or slow (boomy or tight) but that divulges into system design. What�s important about this myth is that speed is an inappropriate concept of sound quality."

There is absolutely faster and slower sounding subwoofers regardless of SPL. There are a number of factors that go into the speed of a subwoofer: driver excursion, amp power, amp type, etc.

REL even discusses the importance of speed on their website: see “speed”:

https://rel.net/pick-right-subwoofer/

“Without the ability to match speed and dexterity to your system, that subwoofer will sound like a walrus in rut.”


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[mep]

There is absolutely faster and slower sounding subwoofers regardless of SPL. There are a number of factors that go into the speed of a subwoofer: driver excursion, amp power, amp type, etc.

REL even discusses the importance of speed on their website: see “speed”:

https://rel.net/pick-right-subwoofer/

“Without the ability to match speed and dexterity to your system, that subwoofer will sound like a walrus in rut.”


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What about the Usain Bolt subs? I hear they are really fast.

[Mike]

What about the Usain Bolt subs? I hear they are really fast.

LOL


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[Toprahman]

There is absolutely faster and slower sounding subwoofers regardless of SPL. There are a number of factors that go into the speed of a subwoofer: driver excursion, amp power, amp type, etc.

REL even discusses the importance of speed on their website: see “speed”:

“Without the ability to match speed and dexterity to your system, that subwoofer will sound like a walrus in rut.”


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Lol REL's webpage is all marketing gobbledygook. They themselves can't even describe what exactly is "fast" or "slow" about the subwoofer. I am actually a bit disappointed in them. The whole webpage sounds like a scam to convince people to buy their subs because they are "faster" "richer" or "warmer".

I'm not saying things can't sound "slow/fast" or "boomy/tight" or really whatever adjective you want to use... The point I was trying to make is that fast and slow is not the right way to describe it, because its kind of meaningless. The only part of a subwoofer thats moving is the diaphragm and the speed of the diaphragm is dependent on SPL and frequency that its playing.

If you felt the REL sub was "slow", its probably a problem with distortion or room resonances making it sound that way.

As far as matching the "speed" of the sub and speaker... I have yet to encounter an acoustical engineer explain what that means and I've asked...

[Mr Peabody]

This may help you https://www.soundstage.com/maxdb/maxdb061999.htm

or http://www.theabsolutesound.com/arti...ass-tas-197-1/

I'd have to find a white paper or something to explain motor structure etc. I don't feel that helpful at this point, LOL Just out of time.

Lol REL's webpage is all marketing gobbledygook. They themselves can't even describe what exactly is "fast" or "slow" about the subwoofer. I am actually a bit disappointed in them. The whole webpage sounds like a scam to convince people to buy their subs because they are "faster" "richer" or "warmer".

I'm not saying things can't sound "slow/fast" or "boomy/tight" or really whatever adjective you want to use... The point I was trying to make is that fast and slow is not the right way to describe it, because its kind of meaningless. The only part of a subwoofer thats moving is the diaphragm and the speed of the diaphragm is dependent on SPL and frequency that its playing.

If you felt the REL sub was "slow", its probably a problem with distortion or room resonances making it sound that way.

As far as matching the "speed" of the sub and speaker... I have yet to encounter an acoustical engineer explain what that means and I've asked...

[Toprahman]

This may help you...

I'd have to find a white paper or something to explain motor structure etc. I don't feel that helpful at this point, LOL Just out of time.

I've read that absolute sound article before and the 2nd article couldn't have said it better. I 100% agree and the author seems to also agree that "fast" and "slow" bass have nothing to do with speed and there are many different possible causes for this perception.

"Fast" or "slow" bass is not the right terminology. The author describes poor integration between midrange and woofer causing distortion. He emphasizes this has nothing to do with the woofer's quality but moreso to do with the integration or mismatches between the amplifiers. I'd also add that resonances and amplifier clipping can cause this perception.

Actually reading that article really points how absurd it is what REL has written on their webpage.

[bzr]

"Wooly", which I can hear from an amp into a 2 way speaker let alone a sub, "loose" like wrong way with lefty loosy & righty tighty, not the neighbor when you were a young-un but someone did the "nut" up wrong way huh, relaxed, not-coherent, un-resolving.... sounds like the mother in-laws logic, bit fuzzy.....
Come on! Most of the guys on this site have enough credibility & experience to be able to hear the difference between room & speed of delivery,....
If you can't, it's alright.....

[Swisstrips]

Certainly, many spkrs can play down to the 20-40hz range and you can “hear” that, but with properly integrated subs (at least two) that same range is a totally different experience, not even close.

At THAT point its personal preference imho. Much of that integration has so much to do with the room + acoustics, which inevitably is the most difficult freq range to deal with. Do it right, no comparison. Do it wrong, ewe.



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[Darrel]

My Magico A3's go down to 22hz and give a very solid bass to midbass. When I turn on my twin SVS 1000 sealed subs I hear drums, pianos, standup bass with more weight and body to the instruments. My preamp has stereo sub outs and I set the A3's to full and the subs are set at 160 hz. Much higher than my usual setup with other speaker I have used with subs. I've used stands under my subs to decouple them from the floor. In home theater to keep things from rattling using sub stands can reduce external noise and falling objects. Today I removed the sub stands just to hear any changes in just a music setup. Now, I notice the instruments anchored and placed with weight and body. Ya gotta love this hobby.

[chops]

Today I removed the sub stands just to hear any changes in just a music setup. Now, I notice the instruments anchored and placed with weight and body. Ya gotta love this hobby.

That's the exact opposite of what's supposed to happen when taking the stands away.

The difference that you said you heard is what you're supposed to notice with the subwoofer stands in place.

[The Sandman]

...I heard JL subs at a clients with his S7’s and it was superb. Seamless in fact.

Now Magico subs with Magico would be the ultimate!

Sub 1.JPG
Sub 2.JPG

[Alpinist]

Hi Howard,

Are those Q15 subwoofers tucked in back there? Congratulations!!! With the S7’s and Q15’s, you must be experiencing some awesome bass.

Enjoy,
Ken

[The Sandman]

Hi Howard,

Are those Q15 subwoofers tucked in back there? Congratulations!!! With the S7’s and Q15’s, you must be experiencing some awesome bass.

Enjoy,
Ken

Yeah, QSub 15's. Just starting to dial them in myself... proper setup won't happen until next week. Even without break in, still on wheels, and without proper setup you can tell that there is greatness here. Sometimes you don't realize what you're missing until you hear it.

As good as the JLA F112s were, they were child's toys compared to these monsters.

Scared the crap out of myself listening to Metallica's Enter Sandman.

[Edward]

Yeah, QSub 15's. Just starting to dial them in myself... proper setup won't happen until next week. Even without break in, still on wheels, and without proper setup you can tell that there is greatness here. Sometimes you don't realize what you're missing until you hear it.

As good as the JLA F112s were, they were child's toys compared to these monsters.

Scared the crap out of myself listening to Metallica's Enter Sandman.

My favorite song! Try "Nothing Else Matters" as well. Starts off slow then BOOM.

Would love to hear the system!

[The Sandman]

My favorite song! Try "Nothing Else Matters" as well. Starts off slow then BOOM.

Would love to hear the system!

You're always welcome bud!

[AJ Soundfield]

You're always welcome bud!

I'm going to hide in his car trunk and slip in too!

[The Sandman]

I'm going to hide in his car trunk and slip in too!

You're welcome anytime too AJ... no need for stealth.

[chrispeddler]

I remember I first bought a sub...I was used to listen to a cheap small common speakers and when I bought a subwoofer and first time using it, it felt heaven. I was like a child discovered something awesome for the first time...like everything is new to my ears.

On the downside, I later on realize that there is something lacking with the quality of sound. Subs, for me, is more of like max bass and max treble...something is lacking. It's hard to balance the sound in general.

[Jean Sibelius]

In my opinion I would say: “Definitely, NO!”, but it requires some investment and time to optimize. When I bought my Velodyne DD-18 many, many years ago I was really surprised by the overall impact on my musical experience. Not only the low frequencies were positively affected, but also mid and high frequencies clearly improved. As the DD-18 is an active subwoofer, I was actually experiencing the effect of bi-amping. Note: more response in the low, also means more troubles with roomacoustics, so you need DSP here. Furthermore, you need to be able to enable a ‘flawless’ integration between subwoofer and main speakers, otherwise it might not bring you what you want. In my current front speaker system, which by design has two subtowers with 4 x 15” woofers each, for the lowest frequencies, I have a similar configuration. Four mono amplifiers for driving each of the four towers (2 xsub and 2 x main) all controlled via central DSP. I still however have my DD-18 which Inow only use during movies.

Best regards, Jan

[LenWhite]

I've owned a number of very good speakers in my life, but only one actually produced bass that got my attention. That was back in the 1980's with the Infinity Beta system that had separate bass and separate mid-high frequency towers. It's been way too long to remember how good the overall sound presentation was, but I very much doubt if it could match the system I have now.

I recently installed a JL Audio F212v2 and CR-1 Active Crossover in my audio system. The bass is now not only prodigious, but after adjusting for phase alignment using the crossover has a timbre rivaling the main speakers. The Raidho D3 imaging has always been spectacular in my acoustically designed listening room, but now the mids and highs have airiness and definition that makes the instruments and voices sound more lifelike.

JL Audio customer service has been phenomenally patient and knowledgeable helping me integrate the subwoofer with the main speakers. Subwoofer positioning and an active crossover are critical to integration as is phase aligning the subwoofer to the main speakers. There's an excellent series of articles on subwoofers by a retired JL Audio senior technical support engineer here. http://www.soundoctor.com/whitepapers/subs.htm

Some very knowledgeable people believe there are few speakers at any price point that wouldn't benefit from a well integrated subwoofer AND crossover. Relieving the stereo amplifier and main speakers from having to produce deep bass reduces distortion that allows both to produce better quality mids and highs. And the subwoofer produces bass most speakers simply cannot.

I'm now a believer.

[steve59]

The last few years I was buying full range speakers and getting frustrated when my room would roll off steeply around 80 hz with a recovery down 10 db at 60 then down 40db by 25hz. Some 'Full range' speakers were -40 db by 70 hz! anyhow I got my dolly and shlepped my massive dual 12" powered sub from the tv room into my basement listening room and I was able to get really smooth even bass down to 20 hz in less than a half hr of positioning. I hated it! seriously, my house rattles and creaks, heat ducts were wailing, furniture was rattling. it sucked PERIOD

My experiment cured me though and i'm quite happy with how musical a pair of speakers with smooth roll off after 50-60hz sounds. Maybe you guys living in bomb shelters can handle subs but I don't like listening to how crummy my house was built when i'm trying to enjoy music.

[Al M.]

The last few years I was buying full range speakers and getting frustrated when my room would roll off steeply around 80 hz with a recovery down 10 db at 60 then down 40db by 25hz. Some 'Full range' speakers were -40 db by 70 hz! anyhow I got my dolly and shlepped my massive dual 12" powered sub from the tv room into my basement listening room and I was able to get really smooth even bass down to 20 hz in less than a half hr of positioning. I hated it! seriously, my house rattles and creaks, heat ducts were wailing, furniture was rattling. it sucked PERIOD

My experiment cured me though and i'm quite happy with how musical a pair of speakers with smooth roll off after 50-60hz sounds. Maybe you guys living in bomb shelters can handle subs but I don't like listening to how crummy my house was built when i'm trying to enjoy music.

Simple solution that should cure at least a significant amount of the problems you describe, and provides even better bass:

ASC SubTrap

[Sbnx]

Hhello everyone. IMHO well integrated subwoofers are awesome for music. OTOH poorly integrated subwoofers are a disaster. Using subs to fill in or augment the bottom octave (20-40Hz) really makes the music blossom. The sense of space goes up by at least an order of magnitude. If you hold your hands out pointing that edge of the soundstage with just two speakers and then switch the subs on your arms will move out another 20 degrees.

There are lots of ways to try and integrate the subs. The higher in frequency you go the harder it is to get the subs to blend properly. if the speakers are being ran full range (no X-over) then I suggest keeping the sub X-over below 60Hz but YMMV. If you use the CR-1 to cross over the mains then you can go higher. Last year the at the Lone Star Audiofest I used a two way speaker crossed over at 75Hz with the JC-1 to a pair of JL F113's. The bass was crazy good in that small hotel room. You could play something with stand up bass and no one could detect that he subs were on. Then we could switch to something like Depeche Mode and vibrate the walls.

Good luck with your subwoofer adventure.

[joeinid]

Welcome to the forum, thank you for joinig.

[Mike]

Hhello everyone. IMHO well integrated subwoofers are awesome for music. OTOH poorly integrated subwoofers are a disaster. Using subs to fill in or augment the bottom octave (20-40Hz) really makes the music blossom. The sense of space goes up by at least an order of magnitude. If you hold your hands out pointing that edge of the soundstage with just two speakers and then switch the subs on your arms will move out another 20 degrees.

There are lots of ways to try and integrate the subs. The higher in frequency you go the harder it is to get the subs to blend properly. if the speakers are being ran full range (no X-over) then I suggest keeping the sub X-over below 60Hz but YMMV. If you use the CR-1 to cross over the mains then you can go higher. Last year the at the Lone Star Audiofest I used a two way speaker crossed over at 75Hz with the JC-1 to a pair of JL F113's. The bass was crazy good in that small hotel room. You could play something with stand up bass and no one could detect that he subs were on. Then we could switch to something like Depeche Mode and vibrate the walls.

Good luck with your subwoofer adventure.

Well said and welcome. Can’t believe how many people encounter on a daily basis who think subs are bad and a sign of weakness in a system. Rubbish. Subs do more for the midrange and evening out the bass in a room than most can imagine. But yes, subs need to be dialed in carefully. Thankfully, the B&W subs and world class Magico subs make it easy!


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[JSQT]

I'm interested in getting better integration with subwoofers on the new Rivals.

When Greg was over on Friday, we both worked with the JL Audio e112 for about an hour, trying different settings (crossover on the sub between 40-60Hz, the Rivals go down to 32Hz at -10dB).

No matter what we did, there was always the sense that there was a separate speaker there providing LF detail and presence. It was pretty distracting in most cases, but there's no doubt that those low frequencies add to the overall weight of the sound.

We were running the Rivals with Greg's stock crossover points, full range (separate pre out to the JL).

At this point I'm thinking of running an experiment with my SVS SB16 Ultra, which is connected to my Anthem pre-pro. Possibly running optical out from the M Scaler into the Anthem's DAC and using the room correction on the full system (correct up to 300 Hz), then re-connecting the Rivals to the tube amp and turning off my Monolith so the Anthem is sending the corrected bass from the pre/pro and the Rivals are getting unaltered full-range signal from the tube amp.

There are 2 obvious problems with this, one being that the DSP is going to filter the subwoofer based on the upstream EQ it applies to the Rivals, so integration is NOT going to be the same when running the Rivals sans-DSP between 32-300Hz. The other is that I'll have 2 pre gain structures to sort out between the tube amp and the Rivals and the Anthem and the subwoofer.

It's things like this that make me want to just enjoy the system as 2 channel only, but I know how much a well-integrated sub can add to the overall sound.

I wish Greg would make an ELF for the Rivals!

[LenWhite]

I've owned a number of very good speakers, but only one actually produced bass that got my attention. That was back in the 1980's with the Infinity Beta system that had separate bass and separate mid-high frequency towers. That is until I recently installed a JL Audio F212v2 and CR1 Active Crossover in my system.

The bass is now not only prodigious, but after adjusting for phase alignment at the crossover point (80 hz.) has a timbre complimenting the main speakers. The Raidho D3 imaging has been spectacular from the beginning, but now the mids and highs have an airiness and definition that makes the instruments and voices sound like they're suspended in air and in the room.


JL Audio customer service has been phenomenally patient and knowledgeable helping me integrate the subwoofer with the main speakers. It's been too long ago to remember any real detail of the Infinity Beta, just a general impression of awesomeness. But I think the setup I have now has a full range impressiveness not unlike what I remember with the Beta's.


When the room was being designed I was advised there are few speakers at any price point that wouldn't benefit from a well integrated subwoofer with a good crossover. The JL Audio F212v2 and CR-1 have made me a believer.

[Al M.]

Do you have your subs on the floor? Raising them with ASC SubTraps may help:

http://www.acousticsciences.com/products/subtrap

I wouldn't want to listen to my system with JL subs without those SubTraps supporting them and removing colorations from floor resonance. I also DSP those subs with the microphone calibration.

Integration with my main speakers is virtually perfect; the combined speaker system sounds with a single voice.

[JSQT]

I've owned a number of very good speakers, but only one actually produced bass that got my attention. That was back in the 1980's with the Infinity Beta system that had separate bass and separate mid-high frequency towers. That is until I recently installed a JL Audio F212v2 and CR1 Active Crossover in my system.

The bass is now not only prodigious, but after adjusting for phase alignment at the crossover point (80 hz.) has a timbre complimenting the main speakers. The Raidho D3 imaging has been spectacular from the beginning, but now the mids and highs have an airiness and definition that makes the instruments and voices sound like they're suspended in air and in the room.


JL Audio customer service has been phenomenally patient and knowledgeable helping me integrate the subwoofer with the main speakers. It's been too long ago to remember any real detail of the Infinity Beta, just a general impression of awesomeness. But I think the setup I have now has a full range impressiveness not unlike what I remember with the Beta's.


When the room was being designed I was advised there are few speakers at any price point that wouldn't benefit from a well integrated subwoofer with a good crossover. The JL Audio F212v2 and CR-1 have made me a believer.

This could be a good option for me. So the CR-1 does not redigitize the signal or in any way degrade your upstream digital components?

[Darrel]

Getting subs integrated into a stereo or any system can be problematic. I chased my small SVS1000s in my stereo for months. I have them on risers adjusted the cross-over and output levels etc. Ultrafast was over early last summer I think and listened to my system just to hear the Magico A3 speakers. And he preferred the subs turn off. But, I kept playing and adjusting. One Sunday morning I was looking at my two subs next to the wall behind the A3s and started to look at them like just any speaker with a driver. And I started to think about the first reflection point on the wall adjacent to the driver. I had some extra ridged foam strips about 10"x20"x1" and placed them on the walls. The subs just fell into the soundstage. Total integration. So, sometimes just thinking about basic speaker placement and their setup can solve basic subs issues. This may or may not help you. But, something to a least consider.

[the professor]

i would try to lower the crossover frequ. If they are 6 db down at 32 then try somewhere between 30-40 no higher than 40. And it from what I understand what you wrote, turn the subs down a little.

If you can hear the subs - they are at a too high of volume. It's a subtle feel you want in a music system - video, no you want slam bam.

I'm interested in getting better integration with subwoofers on the new Rivals.

When Greg was over on Friday, we both worked with the JL Audio e112 for about an hour, trying different settings (crossover on the sub between 40-60Hz, the Rivals go down to 32Hz at -10dB).

No matter what we did, there was always the sense that there was a separate speaker there providing LF detail and presence. It was pretty distracting in most cases, but there's no doubt that those low frequencies add to the overall weight of the sound.

We were running the Rivals with Greg's stock crossover points, full range (separate pre out to the JL).

At this point I'm thinking of running an experiment with my SVS SB16 Ultra, which is connected to my Anthem pre-pro. Possibly running optical out from the M Scaler into the Anthem's DAC and using the room correction on the full system (correct up to 300 Hz), then re-connecting the Rivals to the tube amp and turning off my Monolith so the Anthem is sending the corrected bass from the pre/pro and the Rivals are getting unaltered full-range signal from the tube amp.

There are 2 obvious problems with this, one being that the DSP is going to filter the subwoofer based on the upstream EQ it applies to the Rivals, so integration is NOT going to be the same when running the Rivals sans-DSP between 32-300Hz. The other is that I'll have 2 pre gain structures to sort out between the tube amp and the Rivals and the Anthem and the subwoofer.

It's things like this that make me want to just enjoy the system as 2 channel only, but I know how much a well-integrated sub can add to the overall sound.

I wish Greg would make an ELF for the Rivals!

[JSQT]

Thanks to all of you who replied with feedback & advice.

I worked pretty extensively with this over the afternoon and finally have the Rivals dialed in with dual subs to the point the subs are invisible in the soundstage, which is to say "exactly as they should be!"

Originally Greg & I were working with the JL Audio e112 which, my experience has been, has somewhat wonky manual/analog control dials. We were guesstimating the crossover between 40 & 60 Hz (the dials are ticked in 20dB increments) and we had the volume set around "0" which I assumed was unity. I am convinced now we weren't even in the ballpark with these settings.

This afternoon I started by working with my SB16 Ultra, which has DSP and an app for digital settings. Once I dialed the LPF down to 30Hz and set the slope at 24 dB, I started working the volume way down, to -25 dB (I use -14 for home theater on that sub). This was an excellent start, though it may be placebo I still felt the bass favored the left side of the room just a bit.

Since I only have 1 SB16 Ultra and 1 JL e112, and my dual SB2000s have a bottom crossover setting of 50Hz, I had to place the JL on the opposite side of the SB16, and dialed that in to best approximate the volume and crossover on the SB16. The volume is now between 8 & 9 o'clock; when Greg and I worked with it we were straight up at 12 o'clock. Both the SB16 and JL have the 24 dB rolloff slope so that was a good match.

Finally I turned off the tube amp and only played music through the preamp, set the balance hard left and measured SPL at around 75dB when right up against the grill on the SB16, panned hard right and did the same on the JL (brought the volume down a hair) and matched the 75dB.

Bottom line is now the bass source is invisible in the mix. But it is definitely there providing those lower octaves of presence. Listening to a few songs with a center-panned bass synth and it was dead center in the middle of the field, below the vocal. So ALL IS GOOD.

I think eventually I may ditch the JL Audio and get another SB16. I know the higher end JL Audios are phenomenal but this is the 2nd e112 I've owned, the first one I had to replace because the volume knob went haywire. I did notice on this while adjusting the volume the jumps in dB did not correlate with the very slight changes I made on the knob. I think the SB16 just is a better sub and easier to work with (with the digital settings and mobile app).

So now I guess I'll have to recalibrate the home theater with the dual SB2000s... anyway thanks everyone and to answer the question posed in the OP, NO subwoofers are not bad for music - they do enhance most systems as long as they are used properly!

[Jack]

Jeremey

Instead of another SB16 you might want to look into a pair of Rythmik F-12G's for less than the price of the SB16 then you can put the one you have back to it's intended use. I have two pair of them. One pair in each system. When you put two in the cart it will discount them both.

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12G.html

[JSQT]

Thanks Jack, that sounds like a great deal. I'll definitely look into the Rhythmik for sure when the time comes.

[Mr Peabody]

Whatever sub you get will need to be very quick to keep up with the Volti. I would think JL was up to the task but sounds like that model may not be their best example. If the sub lags it will make integration that more difficult, if at all.

Thanks Jack, that sounds like a great deal. I'll definitely look into the Rhythmik for sure when the time comes.