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  1. #1
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    Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Steve Guttenberg


    Dan

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  2. #2
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Been there, done that. No thank you.

  3. #3
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    Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Dan, it’s definitely an interesting topic. I had REL G1 Mk2 subs and Jim and I tried integrating them with the Magico M3’s and we gave up after hours of trying. The REL’s were slow and sluggish and were “taking away” and didn’t have any new technologies for room integration. Basically, move them around and hope for the best. They failed to integrate with the fast Magico’s.

    Over the years, I’ve had sunfire subs with my Maggie’s and they worked great and many other subs. Some were good and some, not so much.

    I’ve heard several Magico setups with JL Audio subs and those were always awesome and wicked fast. JL Audio, like Magico and others have superb room integration technology.

    But the best subs I’ve ever heard, are the Magico Q-Subs and the Avantgarde long bass horn subs. Paradigm makes a cool looking sub too.

    Personally, I haven’t found a desire to add a sub to many of my setups over the years. I know subs are more about the midrange than the bass, but I’ve still never found a need too often.


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  4. #4
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    I definitely love my Martin Logan dual subs with my Magnepans. They are fast, musical and integrate flawlessly. They disappear and you only know that they are their if you turn them off. They have enhanced the music and my enjoyment. But not all subs match well with all speakers. I have a velodyne sub that sounds like crap with my Magnepans. However, I am not so sure that I will be using my subs when I get my PSB T3's.

    I can certainly relate to live music having too much bass. 2 or 3 years ago, Stevie Wonder came to town and we had great seats at his concert. The bass was way too loud and drowned out his voice. It ruined the concert.
    My Gear- Mains System-Pass X250 amp, BAT VK-51se preamp, Luxman DA-06 DAC, Magnepan 1.6's, Thorens TD-145 TT, Dual Martin Logan Subs, Vintage Luxman T-110 Tuner, Cables-WW Platinum 7 USB, Cardas Parsec XLR, AQ Columbia DBS 72v XLR, Belden 8402 XLR.

  5. #5

    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    I turned off mine just to see what happened.
    My conclusion is that, at this moment, i can´t live without the sub.
    At first seconds there is a false sensation of further detail, but after 2 or 3 minutes it is clear that something is missing. Yes, my electronics need the crutch of the subwoofer

  6. #6
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    The dual powered 12 inch subwoofers built into each of my Vandersteen 7 Mk2 speakers are huge winners in my opinion. Deep bass extension, perfect integration and a strong foundation for the music.

    The same goes for the outboard Vandersteen Sub Nine subwoofers that I have auditioned, which seamlessly roll over from the internal subs below 100 Hz.

    The 11 band equalization on each of the subwoofers allow them to perfectly integrate into my challenging listening room. Richard V. really has it figured out.

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
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  7. #7
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    I was never a fan of subwoofers, and still not a fan to this day. My first experience was my brothers attempt to match his DQ10’s with a sub. He finally purchased the Dahlquist sub and it was horrible !!! Recently I joined two audiophile societies. Almost every member utilizes subs regardless of the hierarchy of the mains. Even speakers well over $20k are matched with subs. And some do not stop at a stereo pair. Four or more subs are commonly used. I understand why audiophiles use subs. It certainly accomplishes the goal of deeper and more robust bass. i can also understand it’s ability to enhance mids and high frequencies. But my gripe comes with trying to match dedicated subwoofer brands with other brand mains. If you want to knock yourself out, be my guest. But IMHO I have heard more situations where subs denigrate the sound rather than enhance it. In some cases they “steal” imaging, focus and soundstaging from the mains. Something the mains designer worked so hard to achieve. And why would someone want to combined a great selection of mains and amplifiers with class ‘D’ active subs, DSP, equalizers, volume pots and other hocus pocus ?
    == Joe ==

  8. #8
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    I'm sure subs can be integrated properly, like Joe, I've heard subs not integrated well for the most part.

    I personally choose not to go down that road.

    The best I've heard subs done, and, I honestly would have not known they were there unless I was told, the first time I heard Kinergetic with their swarm. The subs were audible, just blended the best I've ever heard, seamless.

    My friend has six JL in his 2-channel rig, they're blended pretty well, the subs have room correction, I think even with a microphone. Then he also uses a Wavelet.
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  9. #9
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    If properly integrated, subs can give much more than low end extension and impact.

    The sense of realism increases markedly and it is almost as if you can hear the air of the recording venue.

    I'm truly happy with my pair of REL R528SEs.
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  10. #10
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    For my needs for music soundfield recreation, subs are a must. YMMV.

    As a side note I use Foobar for my music player, which has a spectrum graphic showing exactly how deep the music goes, no guesswork. The guesswork folks might be surprised if they understood what they saw, although some sort of spin would be likely. Or not.

  11. #11
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    For my needs for music soundfield recreation, subs are a must. YMMV.

    As a side note I use Foobar for my music player, which has a spectrum graphic showing exactly how deep the music goes, no guesswork. The guesswork folks might be surprised if they understood what they saw, although some sort of spin would be likely. Or not.
    I agree. Without adjustable powered subwoofers (mine have 11-band EQ, overall attenuation and adjustable Q curve), it is very challenging to lay down a firm and even foundation of bass for the house of music to be built on. I personally was never able to get close sonically before powered subwoofers with some of the anomalies of my listening room, even with some very fine speakers.

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases and Femto 33 Clock; Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus; MSB UMT V Signature Transport
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  12. #12
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Dear Music Fiend. With all due respect, and coming from a person who does not appreciate subwoofers(at all), in my 50+ years in this hobby, I have never heard subs add air to a presentation. But that’s just me......Are subwoofers bad for music? I vote “YES”.
    == Joe ==

  13. #13
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph R. View Post
    Dear Music Fiend. With all due respect, and coming from a person who does not appreciate subwoofers(at all), in my 50+ years in this hobby, I have never heard subs add air to a presentation. But that’s just me......Are subwoofers bad for music? I vote “YES”.
    Dear Joe,

    Should you have the chance, try and listen to this album with a pair of well integrated subs and without the subs.

    http://www.2l.no/pages/album/106.html

    The subs don't add air to the recording. The air was already present in the recording, of course. The subs simply help a lot to reproduce the Cathedral's atmosphere making it almost possible to hear the air.

    Hope this helps!
    I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member - Groucho Marx

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  14. #14
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    I'll vote "no"

    Subs are not bad for music. Bad sub integration is Bad for music. Just like Bad setup is Bad for music.

    Properly done they are great!

    Does somebody need subs for a great Music system - of course not. Just like you don't need a $10,000+ amp to have a great music system.

    When you want the best sound available - a great bass sub-system is mandatory. Speaker manufactures go to great lengths and expense to have their top of their line speakers have a great bass sub-system. Duh!!! They might or might not use what they call a sub - but the reality is the same - they want the best bass down as far as they can - the best want down to at least 15 hz.
    Jock

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  15. #15
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Quote Originally Posted by Music Fiend View Post
    Dear Joe,

    Should you have the chance, try and listen to this album with a pair of well integrated subs and without the subs.

    http://www.2l.no/pages/album/106.html

    The subs don't add air to the recording. The air was already present in the recording, of course. The subs simply help a lot to reproduce the Cathedral's atmosphere making it almost possible to hear the air.

    Hope this helps!
    I am familiar with this recording, and I certainly understand how deep dynamic bass brings out realism. But I don’t think you need a subwoofer to achieve it. I have heard many a well designed loudspeaker accomplish the same thing. I think it is always best for the bass (like every other frequency bandwidth) to be integral to the design. Not an afterthought. For me, bass is best when you don’t notice it.When it is simply a part of the overall musical experience.

    Drawing on my experiences and observations, mixing amplifier types, utilizing equalizers, depending on DSP, room correction algorithms, adding additional volume pots, for the bass bandwidth only, destroys any possibility of seemlessness. And then the user must find the best location in relation to the mains and the room acoustics. Like plopping a supertweeter on a speaker top, if it sounds seemless to you, go for it. I cast no aspersions. But for my money, subwoofers are not worth the effort.

    Off soapbox for good. Sorry for the rant.
    == Joe ==

  16. #16
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    I keep hearing about well integrated subs. Someday I might actually hear someone's system where they aren't obvious.
    Jim

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  17. #17
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Took me well over a year to properly integrate my Rel B3 with Dyn C1's. What I mean by properly is 2 parts - the sub shouldn't lead or lag the main speakers. Second is to get the level right so they seamlessly blend in. Once you've accomplished that you won't know there is the sub in the room.

    But that said I personally could never get the B3 to blend in properly with Raidho D1's. The D2 and D2.1's were no problem. Didn't even bother with the D3.1's. I think the problem with the D1's was a higher crossover point which IMO bled too much into the mids and like Mike said slowed down the sound. Sound real good with the D2/D2.1's but at a much lower crossover point which didn't bleed into the mids. I only noticed there were just a few tracks where the sub came through so I never really used it and traded it in when I got the D3'1.s.

    For that reason my vote is it just depends.
    George

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  18. #18

    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    I’ve heard several Magico setups with JL Audio subs and those were always awesome and wicked fast. JL Audio, like Magico and others have superb room integration technology.
    Totally agree, Mike. My Reference 3A Reflector monitors are super fast like Magico, and my JL Audio 112v2 subs integrate seamlessly. Moreover, I cross over quite high (60 Hz) with shallow slope (12 dB/octave), and while some cello recordings are handled well by the monitors alone, others greatly benefit from addition of the sub. If your subs can add bottom to the cello sound while not smearing out the rapid micro-oscillations on the bowing sounds -- now that's *wicked* fast. The coherence and accuracy of the resulting sound as a whole is pretty amazing. No smearing of mids by the subs on anything else either.

    And as you say, the room integration technology with microphone measurement of peaks/valleys at listening position and digitally controlled compensation is superb.
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  19. #19
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Quote Originally Posted by still-one View Post
    I keep hearing about well integrated subs. Someday I might actually hear someone's system where they aren't obvious.
    Hi Jim,

    My dual 12-inch powered subwoofers are seamless to my ears, but then again, they are built into my speakers. The Vandersteen Sub 9 external subwoofers, used in conjunction with the Vandersteen 7 Mk2's, are also seamless to my ears, but there is a gradual hand-off from the built-in subwoofers to the Sub 9's. This significantly improves cohesiveness, enabling the Sub 9's to be placed further away from the Vandy 7 Mk2's without making them stand out.

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases and Femto 33 Clock; Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus; MSB UMT V Signature Transport
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  20. #20
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Quote Originally Posted by still-one View Post
    I keep hearing about well integrated subs. Someday I might actually hear someone's system where they aren't obvious.
    Hi Jim,

    Do you ever get to the Atlanta area?

    Best,

    Jim
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  21. #21
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Smith View Post
    Hi Jim,

    Do you ever get to the Atlanta area?

    Best,

    Jim
    Hi Jim,

    I’m sure you can provide a few examples!

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases and Femto 33 Clock; Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus; MSB UMT V Signature Transport
    Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps; MSB M204 Mono Amps
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  22. #22
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    In a couple of shows in the past where Wilson brought their Thor subs, they did a good job integrating them.
    Jock

    If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters.

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  23. #23
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Quote Originally Posted by the professor View Post
    In a couple of shows in the past where Wilson brought their Thor subs, they did a good job integrating them.
    Hi Jock,

    Did Wilson have the Thor’s with the Alexandria XLF this year at Axpona?

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases and Femto 33 Clock; Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus; MSB UMT V Signature Transport
    Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps; MSB M204 Mono Amps
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  24. #24
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    I don't think so. They had them at RMAF a couple years ago or Axpona 2017 tho.

    All the shows run together. I go to too many.
    Jock

    If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters.

    ---------

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  25. #25
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    I really have to wrap my head around a >$100,000 pair of speakers that call for a subwoofer.

    Talk about an audiophile that has everything !!!
    == Joe ==

  26. #26
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    I know what you mean. We are a ridiculous bunch. But . . . . to get the most out of the speakers, they do need the subs.



    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph R. View Post
    I really have to wrap my head around a >$100,000 pair of speakers that call for a subwoofer.

    Talk about an audiophile that has everything !!!
    Jock

    If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters.

    ---------

    House: Naim ND555/2PS, Naim 552, Naim 500, Studer A80/Doshi V3, Magico M2s, 2 Magico Q-Sub 15s, Lumina IC/SC, Shunyata Everest and Omega PCs.

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  27. #27
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Quote Originally Posted by the professor View Post
    But . . . . to get the most out of the speakers, they do need the subs.
    Really Jock !!! I would love to know why you feel a speaker is never complete without a subwoofer ? Or are you only talking about the Alexandria XLF’s ? If this is so, it does not fair well for Wilson. Are they so far up in their ivory tower ?
    == Joe ==

  28. #28

    Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Subs are better for low bass than the speakers (assuming only 2 towers), regardless of $100k or $1k, simply because left and right speaker positions may not be optimal for low bass for a particular room response. Besides, you need that massive amount of power to produce low bass and unless it’s a powered version like Vandy Model 7, it’s just not going to cut it. So, my take is subs aren’t a must, but they can certainly enhance your music listening experience.

    Agree with what Mike said above about Magico and JL, my S3s and JL F113v2 integrate seamlessly.

  29. #29
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Quote Originally Posted by kzhtoo View Post
    Subs are better for low bass than the speakers (assuming only 2 towers), regardless of $100k or $1k,
    Uncle.....
    == Joe ==

  30. #30
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph R. View Post
    I really have to wrap my head around a >$100,000 pair of speakers that call for a subwoofer.

    Talk about an audiophile that has everything !!!
    Although not every set-up I have done needed subs, over 90% profited by having them, and very often, it was the large (expensive) "full-range" loudspeakers that profited most.

    Done properly, it's rarely so much about the bass as it is about an increased sense of presence, of the musicians being present in the room, or you are more immersed into the event at the concert venue.

    When I hear someone complaining about the subs not working well with a system, I find I always agree.

    Why? The subs were not properly integrated with the mains.

    Why? Most times, when the mains are set up for optimum musical engagement - dynamics, presence & tone are good - that is not where the deeper bass is smoothest or deepest in the room. Done properly, locating the mains for best performance is the only way you have any hope of integrating the subs properly. If the mains are uneven through the bass, how will you ever get the subs to blend flawlessly?

    If you find that you occasionally want to go over & readjust the subs for a piece of music, then you have more work to do.

    Note that I say subs - not sub. I used to advise my retail stereo clients to save their money until they could afford to buy two subs. IMO, one sub is generally worse than none.

    If you are interested, I wrote a seven part series for Copper e-mag about subs - SUBWOOFERY.

    It expounds on these ideas & more.
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  31. #31
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Smith View Post
    Although not every set-up I have done needed subs, over 90% profited by having them, and very often, it was the large (expensive) "full-range" loudspeakers that profited most.

    Done properly, it's rarely so much about the bass as it is about an increased sense of presence, of the musicians being present in the room, or you are more immersed into the event at the concert venue.

    When I hear someone complaining about the subs not working well with a system, I find I always agree.

    Why? The subs were not properly integrated with the mains.

    Why? Most times, when the mains are set up for optimum musical engagement - dynamics, presence & tone are good - that is not where the deeper bass is smoothest or deepest in the room. Done properly, locating the mains for best performance is the only way you have any hope of integrating the subs properly. If the mains are uneven through the bass, how will you ever get the subs to blend flawlessly?

    If you find that you occasionally want to go over & readjust the subs for a piece of music, then you have more work to do.

    Note that I say subs - not sub. I used to advise my retail stereo clients to save their money until they could afford to buy two subs. IMO, one sub is generally worse than none.

    If you are interested, I wrote a seven part series for Copper e-mag about subs - SUBWOOFERY.

    It expounds on these ideas & more.
    Finally. Thank you Jim.

  32. #32
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Oops! Double post.
    Last edited by Mechnutt; September 25, 2018 at 11:41 AM. Reason: double post
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  33. #33
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Jim, thanks for the post and I totally agree. My new T3's speakers go down to 24hz and put out some nice low end bass. However, I found that my dual subs add presence to the music. I plugged the bottom of the 3 woofer ports in the T3's and added my subs and the speakers sound smoother and better. The music has more emotion , depth and sound stage. The subs integrate seamlessly.

    Your post just confirms what I hear.

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  34. #34
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Seems like the final word on the topic to me
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  35. #35
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    It's not just me ----

    If Wilson didn't think their sub added to their speakers they wouldn't show with them when showing the best they have to offer. Magico wouldn't display their subs if they didn't think they didn't improve the sound of their speakers. Avant Garde has different sub options for their top of the line speakers (trios) all the way up to 6 subs, they obviously think that subs improve the sound.

    Again - no system needs a sub to be outstanding. But as an audiophile - almost by definition - we try to get the absolute best from a system. Subs are part of this. Just like a great power distribution system is. Or cables.

    Some systems probably aren't helped by a sub. Von Schweikert top of the line Ultra 11s are an example ($300,000). They are always voted as one of the best at shows. There are numerous systems like this one out there.



    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph R. View Post
    Really Jock !!! I would love to know why you feel a speaker is never complete without a subwoofer ? Or are you only talking about the Alexandria XLF’s ? If this is so, it does not fair well for Wilson. Are they so far up in their ivory tower ?
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Quote Originally Posted by the professor View Post
    Some systems probably aren't helped by a sub. Von Schweikert top of the line Ultra 11s are an example ($300,000). They are always voted as one of the best at shows. There are numerous systems like this one out there.
    Though from what I recall, even VSA has always shown those Ultra 11's (which have internally powered subs) with a pair or more of their largest stand-alone subs as part of the rig. Sure, those extra subs are playing intentionally out of phase to tame the bass in the show venue, but they're still present to make the big towers sound their best.
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    So except for me, it seems the general concensus is subwoofers are good for almost all speaker systems. Whether they are good for music may (or may not ) be another story. If I were a manufacturer catering mostly to rich clients, there is no doubt I would pair my quarter of a million dollar TOTL speaker with another quarter of a million dollar subwoofer. But is it remotely possible that this could lead me to design a speaker system that would benefit from a sub of my own design ? Could this be nothing short of a marketing tool ? Just some hypotheticals.

    I heard some live music yesterday. The bass player had two instuments on stage. A standup bass and a Fender bass guitar. During the show he never picked up the standup acoustic bass. There was no doulbt in my mind that there was too much bass in the mix. At one time the bass was an accompanying instument. Jack Bruce and others have since made it a “lead instument”. Just as an aside, the lowest note of a bass guitar is 40hz. Playing professional guitar for years, I am enamored by tasty bass players who comprise a rhythm section. As with any musician, playing as a band member and not a solo act is what I look for and enjoy.

    It seems to me that the audiophile community is moving in the same general direction. As I visit other people’s systems it is common place for more and more subs to be added to their systems. Like Avant Garde, Scana and other high end manufacturers “the more the merrier”. I have heard systems with six to eight subwoofers. And sometimes placed in rooms other than the main listening room. If audiophiles enjoy this, so be it. After all this hobby is for enjoyment purposes. But I also must stand my ground. For me bass is the flavoring of music and not the main event. Just like drums or cannons. I enjoy listening to true acoustic bass much more than electronic bass guitar bass. The analogy of “playing like a band member” holds true for a speaker system. It is more important to me to have a seemless integrated speaker system than to single out great anything (like bass or high frequencies). For me a speaker designer that does that is what I look for. And to do this in a domestic environment is also important. My modest sound room could never accomodate stereo cannons of the 1812 overture. I would never expect any room of my house to.

    To each his own.
    == Joe ==

  38. #38

    Are subwoofers bad for music?

    No such thing as “flavoring” in music as all frequencies are equally important. And I don’t think anyone is adding subs to their system to have the bass stand out. Jim explained it best in his above post.

  39. #39
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Sorry you feel that way. I respectfully disagree. I understand Jim’s post but take it from a vantage point of a professional, not a hobbiest. Big difference.
    == Joe ==

  40. #40
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Aside from providing the lowest notes, subwoofers can help even out the bass in a room, fix many node issues and providing a fuller lower midrange to boot. Believe it or not, there is a lot going on down there and you will never hear it, if you don’t have a subwoofer capable of hitting the lowest of lows.

    For anyone who has the Chris Jones Album called Roadhouses and Automobiles, track #2 entitled Thank You RJ Reynolds is a great example. At the end of the song, he sings “and I’ll see you in hell”. 99.9% of the speakers out there will just merrily play along and you will have no clue what you’re missing. Once you add a pair of subs (one is rarely ideal), you will jump out of your seat playing the end of that song. “I’ll see you in hell”. BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! Other than my Avantgarde’s, I have NEVER heard any other speaker reproduce this affect without the use of a subwoofer. My AG’s go down to 18hz and have no issues.

    On another track, like the first track on Andrea Bocelli’s album Passione, during the beginning of the first song, there are many low notes which are just not reproduced without the use of a sub and trust me, it takes away from the whole experience of the song.

    Now integration of subs is a whole ‘nother story. It takes time and tremendous patience. But it can be very rewarding.
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  41. #41

    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph R. View Post
    Sorry you feel that way. I respectfully disagree. I understand Jim’s post but take it from a vantage point of a professional, not a hobbiest. Big difference.
    Uncle..

  42. #42
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph R. View Post
    Sorry you feel that way. I respectfully disagree. I understand Jim’s post but take it from a vantage point of a professional, not a hobbiest. Big difference.
    I agree with and will use your statement above:

    Sorry you feel that way.


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  43. #43
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph R. View Post
    Sorry you feel that way. I respectfully disagree. I understand Jim’s post but take it from a vantage point of a professional, not a hobbiest. Big difference.
    Fair enough, Joseph, but this professional has improved the sound quality of scores of hobbiest’s listening rooms by adding subwoofers to their systems. Just sayin...

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  44. #44
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    You may have missed my post. I prefer just speakers without a sub for 2-channel music, personally. Just because integrated subs has definitely been in the minority of systems I've heard with subs. Also, listeners tastes are different, most times to boost the bass is just too much a temptation for those using subs.
    However, I know from hearing integration of a sub is not impossible and I wouldn't argue subs are necessarily bad for music.
    Pro's use subs as well. When I worked in the business the company I was at built enough EV folded horns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph R. View Post
    So except for me, it seems the general concensus is subwoofers are good for almost all speaker systems. Whether they are good for music may (or may not ) be another story. If I were a manufacturer catering mostly to rich clients, there is no doubt I would pair my quarter of a million dollar TOTL speaker with another quarter of a million dollar subwoofer. But is it remotely possible that this could lead me to design a speaker system that would benefit from a sub of my own design ? Could this be nothing short of a marketing tool ? Just some hypotheticals.

    I heard some live music yesterday. The bass player had two instuments on stage. A standup bass and a Fender bass guitar. During the show he never picked up the standup acoustic bass. There was no doulbt in my mind that there was too much bass in the mix. At one time the bass was an accompanying instument. Jack Bruce and others have since made it a “lead instument”. Just as an aside, the lowest note of a bass guitar is 40hz. Playing professional guitar for years, I am enamored by tasty bass players who comprise a rhythm section. As with any musician, playing as a band member and not a solo act is what I look for and enjoy.

    It seems to me that the audiophile community is moving in the same general direction. As I visit other people’s systems it is common place for more and more subs to be added to their systems. Like Avant Garde, Scana and other high end manufacturers “the more the merrier”. I have heard systems with six to eight subwoofers. And sometimes placed in rooms other than the main listening room. If audiophiles enjoy this, so be it. After all this hobby is for enjoyment purposes. But I also must stand my ground. For me bass is the flavoring of music and not the main event. Just like drums or cannons. I enjoy listening to true acoustic bass much more than electronic bass guitar bass. The analogy of “playing like a band member” holds true for a speaker system. It is more important to me to have a seemless integrated speaker system than to single out great anything (like bass or high frequencies). For me a speaker designer that does that is what I look for. And to do this in a domestic environment is also important. My modest sound room could never accomodate stereo cannons of the 1812 overture. I would never expect any room of my house to.

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  45. #45
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    I know it's been a month since the last post in this thread, but wanted to add to it...

    What I have always noticed most with your "average" user who uses a sub or two is that they NEED to hear their subs in order to justify their purchase. They typically have the crossover set too high and definitely have the gain set too high, both of which make it very obvious there's subs in the room and they're drawing way too much attention to themselves.

    Also, a lot of typical consumers look at specs and only care about how deep said subs are claimed to go. This may be fine for explosions and crashes in movies, but not necessarily for music. There are far more important features of a sub to look at that are capable of playing nicely with music. The top one above all else is known reputation for being good with music. Your average consumer would probably instantly look at brands such as Klipsch or SVS, whereas audiophiles in the know will be instantly looking at brands such as REL, JL Audio or Martin Logan.

    I've gone through tons of subs over the years that were thought to be great quality, and they were for movies. But when it came to music, they were all slow and sluggish, muddied up the overall sound, some tended to be boomy no matter what, and all were simply not fit for music.

    Other than a really big, really ugly pair of open baffle subwoofers I built years ago utilizing four 15" pro woofers (two woofers each), these little JL subs are the next best sounding subs I've ever owned. They're agile, light on their toes, are quick and detailed, keep up with whatever music I play, blend seamlessly with the mains, and simply get out of the way of the music and just disappear. When they are called upon to reproduce bass, it literally seems like the bass is coming from the main speakers.

    So for me, I am definitely in the camp of "subwoofers are good for music".

    Lastly, when I picked up my Sonus Faber Venere 1.5's last week, in one of the demo rooms, there were a pair of Wilson Audio Alexx powered by a pair of beautiful Dan D'Agostino Progression mono block amps. Tucked back behind those Wilson's were a line array (stack of three per channel) of REL G1 MkII's, so a total of six!

    Not only were the Wilson Alexx's fully capable of disappearing, so were the G1 MkII's. Listening with your eyes closed, you just had a large wall of sound coming at you with plenty of natural bass extension that blended perfectly with the Alexx's. It was just one large wall of sound, which I might add was also capable of a very convincing holographic effect. The acoustics of the venue in the recording just engulfed you and transported you to the actual recording location. And it's funny that I just used the term "transported", because that's the name of that room/system, "The Transporter".
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  46. #46
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Dear Charles: You certainly sound like a guy who has mucho subwoofer experience. You also seem unbias as well. But it still boggles my mind that no matter how big or how expensive a speaker is, someone out there feels a subwoofer is needed. To me it is like adding a supertweeter to a speaker designed with a plasma tweeter. What’s next ? Midrange add-on’s ?
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  47. #47
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph R. View Post
    Dear Charles: You certainly sound like a guy who has mucho subwoofer experience. You also seem unbias as well. But it still boggles my mind that no matter how big or how expensive a speaker is, someone out there feels a subwoofer is needed. To me it is like adding a supertweeter to a speaker designed with a plasma tweeter. What’s next ? Midrange add-on’s ?
    It's been said a million times before... If you have your mains located where they perform best for imaging and sound stage, then they are NOT going to be in the best place for reproducing bass. That's why you need subs, no matter what the speaker. The subs get placed in the best spots for bass reproduction.
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  48. #48
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Quote Originally Posted by chops View Post
    It's been said a million times before... If you have your mains located where they perform best for imaging and sound stage, then they are NOT going to be in the best place for reproducing bass. That's why you need subs, no matter what the speaker. The subs get placed in the best spots for bass reproduction.
    I don’t mean to be difficult here, but will say my piece and leave this topic forever. There is no evidence that this statement is true. Regardless of how many times it is said. There are so many different situations, acoustical enviroments and room variations that need to be taken into account. And what about adding bass to a speaker that was designed to be full range. Adding a subwoofer is modifying the design parameters. And not always for the better.

    If speakers are located based on imaging and sound staging alone, than the setup is wrong, Every aspect of performance should be taken into account. And to say one always is at the detriment of the other is circumspect.

    I would much prefer an audiophile saying “because I like It that way”. I can respect that.
    == Joe ==

  49. #49
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    I have had subwoofers and now do not use one. I believe they can add a lot but also believe it is very difficult to get one integrated properly. There is also a lot of personal preference and of course room acoustics involved.

    One thing I would like to mention is when setting up a room/speakers, referring back to Jim Smith's "Get Better Sound", the first thing Jim has you do is find the spot in the room where your main speakers give the best bass. Trying to work the room. Imaging and and sound stage are dealt with afterwards. Again you have to make the room work for you also, and therefore the best spot for proper bass may not always work for you in the room. You do the best you can, but you do need to live in your room also.
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  50. #50
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    Re: Are subwoofers bad for music?

    Hmm, guess I should have written post #30 more clearly. I didn't realize that it was ambiguous in any way.
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AudioShark - The Best High End Audio Discussion forum.

AudioShark forum is a leading forum site for High End Audio Discussion, Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater System Discussion, Best Home Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater Installation Discussion etc.

The AudioShark forum was created for sharing the passion of high-end Audio. We have Audiophiles from all over the world participating and sharing their knowledge. From novice to experts, you will find a friendly environment for discussing about High End Audio, Stereo System, Home Theater System, Home Stereo System, Home Theater Installation, Amplifiers, Speakers, Subwoofers, Integrated System, Acoustic treatments & Digital Room Corrections and many more.

At AudioShark, we also have incorporated an exciting Marketplace where members can peruse terrific buys on used gear, as well as meet dealers and discuss the purchase of new gear.

We are as crazy about this hobby as you are! So come on in and join us! Audioshark.org the Friendliest Audio Forum!

Industry Participation Disclosure : The owner and administrator of Audioshark is the owner of Suncoast Audio LLC in Sarasota Florida. Suncoast Audio has a full brick and mortar presence in Sarasota with several great show rooms with many world class brands. More information can be found at http://www.suncoastaudio.com

Audioshark is a community of like minded individuals. Audioshark welcomes participation from all manufacturers and owners of all brands and products. It is our belief that online forums provide a community of like minded audiophiles and music lovers to encourage the growth of this wonderful hobby.

Sincerely,
The Audioshark.org Team

Are subwoofers bad for music?

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