Line Sources - For & Against

Mike

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Kevin in Wappinger Falls New York (wherever that is) asked me an interesting question recently.

“Arnie Nudell popularized the line source loudspeaker design and many of his most revered speakers such as the Quantum Line Source, the IRS 1B, the IRS V, and the Genesis 1 (and apparently at least the two larger members of your forthcoming AN series loudspeakers) are all line source designs. Why don’t we see more line source loudspeaker designs? Is it strictly due to the cost because of the many more drivers, the larger cabinet, the increased manufacturing labor cost – or are there other attributes that have made them less popular?”

This is a really good question and one we don’t talk about much. Perhaps it’s a good idea to first get on the same page. The classic two-way or three-way loudspeaker has two or three drivers in a box. The multiplicity of drivers—tweeter, midrange, woofer—is needed to break apart the frequencies so each driver only has to handle a specific range: tweeters handle the higher frequencies about 2kHz and the woofer handles everything from that point down.

A line source handles the frequency divisions in exactly the same way—tweeters, midrange, and woofers—but instead of relying upon a single driver for each range multiple drivers are instead employed, typically with a line of many tweeters and sometimes many midranges. The advantages of multiple drivers in a line are manifold: each driver has fewer demands and the waveform comes out in a long, vertical, cylinder rather than a single driver’s ever-expanding circular wave.

The advantages of a line source vs. a point source can be summed up fairly easily. A point source sound radiates in all directions from the driver and quickly loses energy as it floods the room in a 180˚ plane. Worse, this expanded radiation pattern hits the ceiling, walls, and floor and reflects back into the room out of synch (time) with the initial launch. Only those listeners in a narrow sweet spot get to enjoy the best sound. A line source radiates a more focused pattern in the shape of a tall vertical cylinder that, above about 500Hz, has nearly no floor, ceiling, or sidewall reflections to dissipate energy and add to sonic confusion.

All that said, tomorrow we’ll look at some older Infinity designs.

Source: https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/line-sources/

Against:

"A lot of tosh is written about line sources, particularly in praise of full-height lines which reach from floor to ceiling and - if the floor and ceiling are reflective, behaving as acoustic mirrors - approximate the behavior of an infinite line source. What the careless proponents of full-height line sources fail to appreciate is that - because listening takes place in the nearfield - the frequency response at the listening position is not flat. Time delays from different sections of the line cause frequency dependent destructive interference resulting in a frequency response that declines from low frequencies to high frequencies at 3db per octave (10db per decade).

This can be equalized, potentially, but it means that the speaker input at 20khz has to be 30db higher than at 20hz for the same acoustic output. In power terms 30 db is equivalent to a ratio of 1000:1, so 1kw input would be required at 20khz to match acoustic output from just 1w input at 20hz.

Shorter line sources behave better in that the start of the 3db per octave roll-off is postponed to higher frequencies at practical listening distances, but the frequency response now varies with distance from the line.

Fig 2 illustrates this for a 1m high continuous line source, showing the theoretical frequency responses at 1m (blue), 3m (red) and 5m (green) on the axis of the line center. As well as these responses being distance-dependent, they have pronounced ripples around the 3db per octave roll-off. The message is that is pays to keep line sources as short as possible, which in the context of achieving a given peak output capability suggests using as many drivers as necessary but no more.

Vertical line sources disposed side-by-side (a la IRS) also introduce off-axis response issues in the horizontal plane through crossover - another unwelcome consequence of this approach and an effect which the vertical disposition of drivers in most conventional speakers is specifically adopted to avoid."

Source: Keith Howard, HiFi News, May 2018 (page 29-31).
 
Speaking of theoretical Tosh , Imagine when you add line-source speakers to high distortion toob amps
:)

BTW ..!

“We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide." - leading Top Notch Audiophile


:)
 
What is that speaker with the 7 or 9 tweeters all in a ring. They are super ugly. Well, their mom thinks their beautiful. They are suppose to sound very good. A little bit of play on a line. I think the crossover does some work in making the center the high frequency and the outer ring of drivers are more mid range.
 
I think you are talking about the Tekton line. Don't know how they have gotten multiple reviewers to gush about them as they look like DIY speakers from the infamous "white van." I know a couple of people that bought them and said they were cheaply built and packaged. The designer and owner is from the Pro Audio world. All of the reviews are from "subjective" publications without a measurement in sight. They seem to change models weekly which really helps with resell value.
 
Yea I was thinking Tekton. Never heard then.

I have heard the Genesis a few times as a buddy owns them. I think a positive to line source (depending on size) is scale. All those drivers and ribbons. It is a massive wall of sound. It gets you that much closser to live.

Also, what about Mike Lavignes Evolution stack. Would you call that line source. Per side, 4 woofers stacked floor to ceiling with mains consisting of 9 drivers floor to ceiling. Your really in the performance their.
 
I had an open baffle line source, the Concert Grand Reference Gold, one of the most engaging speakers I have ever heard. Loved them and had them for 5 years and if not for my buddy, Elliot Goldman of Bending Wave, probably would have kept them and been "buried in them". They were Harry Pearson's last review, and he felt them to be the best of speaker he ever heard. He heard them with an ARC Ref75, which Carl of Nola Speakers and their designer, felt they sounded best with. I had them with MSB IV then V then Select II with a REF10 to Ref250 then Ref75 then GS150 then CH Precision M1. As to the tubes, the GS150 was the best I had. Upon receiving the Select II the REF10 was no match for direct from the Select II. The BIG surprise was the how the CH Precision trumped tubes. Not even in the same class. Plus we tried many other SS amps ( I rather not name to avoid a fight) and the CH was just absolutely incredible with the CGR. Carl, if he ever shows these again would do well to change his (stubborn) mind and listen to the combination.

As to sweetspot, due to the open baffle design of these line source speakers, they had a WIDE open soundstage with a very wide sweetspot. They did not have a tiny sweetspot as some other line sources.

No speaker is "perfect" and neither are the CGR Golds. If anything, the image tends to be a littler larger the closer the performer to the center and a little smaller the more lateral, leading to slight distortion of image; not a big distortion but a small one. Bass can sound amazing or can sound a little bloated. The bloat was most apparent on double bass strings, such as Charlie Haden. This "bloat" was significantly tightened up with the CH but not totally eliminated.

One thing I will say about them, having been in this hobby both in sales in the 80s and a strict hobbyist since, is no large speaker can act like a monitor as well as these, NONE.

They are large, need a large room which I have and are a little dated in design but still an amazing line source, if one is willing to spend the money for SOTA.

Given my future plans and other things I have moved to Gobels Epoque Aeon Fines, am the first here in the USA to have a pair and am thrilled with them. Another speaker that is wide open, a soundstage to die for, sweet spot is wide open, incredibly accurate and very fast bass. Best of all worlds, IMHO, but you pay a large price $$ wise. My future plans are to move to a smaller home, with a smaller listening area so the CGRs were not a possibility no matter. The Aeons work in any size room.
 
Here's an example of the lack of vertical dispersion from Maggies:

Ever notice the difference in sound when you stood up and MG1s, MG 1.7s, etc. were playing (assuming they were standing relatively straight)? Yes, the upper mids & treble are rolled off.

That's because they beam all frequencies straight ahead that have a wavelength shorter than the length of the driver. Which is why - Keith Howard or not - there was no vertical dispersion of mids & highs off of the ceiling at the MG-30.7 demo. Other problems? Sounds like the answer was a resounding YES!

But not from sounds reflecting off of the ceiling. This isn't just my opinion as the guy who wrote the MG-1, MG-2, & Tympani 1D owners' manuals.

I saw it measured at the factory many times when I worked there, and I have measured it myself hundreds of times.

Unless someone figured out how to modify the laws of physics that evening...
 
Yea I was thinking Tekton. Never heard then.

I have heard the Genesis a few times as a buddy owns them. I think a positive to line source (depending on size) is scale. All those drivers and ribbons. It is a massive wall of sound. It gets you that much closser to live.

Also, what about Mike Lavignes Evolution stack. Would you call that line source. Per side, 4 woofers stacked floor to ceiling with mains consisting of 9 drivers floor to ceiling. Your really in the performance their.

No mikeL does not have a linesource speaker ...
 
I had an open baffle line source, the Concert Grand Reference Gold, one of the most engaging speakers I have ever heard. Loved them and had them for 5 years and if not for my buddy, Elliot Goldman of Bending Wave, probably would have kept them and been "buried in them". They were Harry Pearson's last review, and he felt them to be the best of speaker he ever heard. He heard them with an ARC Ref75, which Carl of Nola Speakers and their designer, felt they sounded best with. I had them with MSB IV then V then Select II with a REF10 to Ref250 then Ref75 then GS150 then CH Precision M1. As to the tubes, the GS150 was the best I had. Upon receiving the Select II the REF10 was no match for direct from the Select II. The BIG surprise was the how the CH Precision trumped tubes. Not even in the same class. Plus we tried many other SS amps ( I rather not name to avoid a fight) and the CH was just absolutely incredible with the CGR. Carl, if he ever shows these again would do well to change his (stubborn) mind and listen to the combination.

As to sweetspot, due to the open baffle design of these line source speakers, they had a WIDE open soundstage with a very wide sweetspot. They did not have a tiny sweetspot as some other line sources.

No speaker is "perfect" and neither are the CGR Golds. If anything, the image tends to be a littler larger the closer the performer to the center and a little smaller the more lateral, leading to slight distortion of image; not a big distortion but a small one. Bass can sound amazing or can sound a little bloated. The bloat was most apparent on double bass strings, such as Charlie Haden. This "bloat" was significantly tightened up with the CH but not totally eliminated.

One thing I will say about them, having been in this hobby both in sales in the 80s and a strict hobbyist since, is no large speaker can act like a monitor as well as these, NONE.

They are large, need a large room which I have and are a little dated in design but still an amazing line source, if one is willing to spend the money for SOTA.

Given my future plans and other things I have moved to Gobels Epoque Aeon Fines, am the first here in the USA to have a pair and am thrilled with them. Another speaker that is wide open, a soundstage to die for, sweet spot is wide open, incredibly accurate and very fast bass. Best of all worlds, IMHO, but you pay a large price $$ wise. My future plans are to move to a smaller home, with a smaller listening area so the CGRs were not a possibility no matter. The Aeons work in any size room.




Elliot used to sell real linesource speakers , he was once a Genesis dealer, the Nola would be considered a shortline ......
 
Elliot used to sell real linesource speakers , he was once a Genesis dealer, the Nola would be considered a shortline ......

That is true. Carl's Grand Reference would be considered more as a "large" line source, more comparable to the Genesis/IRS

GrandReference_VI-sm.jpg

Compared to my previously owned large CGR Gold, "smaller line source"

concertgrand_sm.jpg

Now replaced with, well I don't even know what to characterize the Gobel as:

epo fin_white_new_72dpi.jpg
 
There are very, very few true line source speakers currently on the market. The only one commerical one I'm aware of is the big Genesis. I would assume the reason is cost, size and lack a market for the specialized drivers required. Almost all the speakers discussed previously wouldn't classify in the strict sense. Even the mighty IRS of yesteryear wasn't a line source in the bass.

I'v owned in the past Genesis II & Apogees which would probably qualify in the strict sense. I've also owned Maggies and Soundlabs which would be line sources at some frequencies and not others. Hybrid line sources for lack of a better term.
All of these speakers had their own unique sets of strengths and weaknesses. As others have said the proof is in the listening. For me, there are things having to do with soundstaging, scale and dynamic ease that I've heard from the big Genesis that are unmatched by anything else I've heard in 35 years of high end audio experience.

One last thought, these hybrid line source speakers can be improved radically with the use of DSP. I had the opportunity to use some Maggie 20.7s with Trinnov DSP and the results were jaw dropping. I believe there is a review out there somewhere of exactly this combination ( I will add a link later if I find it).
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/trinnov/1.html
 
I have a close friend that lived with IRS for years, loves and sells the wisdoms. I would call them a hybrid, not a line source in the bass like the Genesis. It would be nice if we could get a real expert to comment here like McGowen or Gary Koh. I am NOT a speaker designer....:-)
 
The CH precision M1 better be good at $94K. Plus you need to buy the preamp. That's real money.

If you are referring to my post, you have the price all wrong and I don't use a preamp.

CH Precision as a stereo amp, costs 55K (unless there has been a price increase) and my DAC acts as the preamp as the MSB Select II has a superb pre stage that, I felt, was much better than my REF10.

Not sure where you got the 94K price?
 
There are very, very few true line source speakers currently on the market. The only one commerical one I'm aware of is the big Genesis. I would assume the reason is cost, size and lack a market for the specialized drivers required. Almost all the speakers discussed previously wouldn't classify in the strict sense. Even the mighty IRS of yesteryear wasn't a line source in the bass.

I'v owned in the past Genesis II & Apogees which would probably qualify in the strict sense. I've also owned Maggies and Soundlabs which would be line sources at some frequencies and not others. Hybrid line sources for lack of a better term.
All of these speakers had their own unique sets of strengths and weaknesses. As others have said the proof is in the listening. For me, there are things having to do with soundstaging, scale and dynamic ease that I've heard from the big Genesis that are unmatched by anything else I've heard in 35 years of high end audio experience.

One last thought, these hybrid line source speakers can be improved radically with the use of DSP. I had the opportunity to use some Maggie 20.7s with Trinnov DSP and the results were jaw dropping. I believe there is a review out there somewhere of exactly this combination ( I will add a link later if I find it).
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/trinnov/1.html


The Infinity’s were 6 woofer high towers to be exact , linsource it makes , unless in a cathedral ...

interesting your thoughts on the use of DSP as i have never heard this successfully done before , how was your experienced improved, bass? Timbre ? Drive ..?


Regards
 
I have a close friend that lived with IRS for years, loves and sells the wisdoms. I would call them a hybrid, not a line source in the bass like the Genesis. It would be nice if we could get a real expert to comment here like McGowen or Gary Koh. I am NOT a speaker designer....:-)


A true linesource would go from floor to ceiling , a 7 ft tall linesource speaker in a typical domestic setting could be considered a true linesource because most rooms are of a particular size to allow the typical -3 db instead of -6db drop in SPl for every doubling of distance ..

A 3 ft line would be considered a short line ...


The first true domestic line-source speaker i ever saw or heard were from Acoustat it would just about touch the ceilings in a standard room ...


Regards
 
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