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  1. #1
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    How does a High-Level connected sub (i.e. REL) improve midrange?

    I keep reading reports that people who have added subs with high-level / speaker level connections (such as REL) find significant improvement in midrange and upper bass performance. I don't doubt the reports, but I'm intuitively struggling with how this is possible. If none of the load is being taken away from the main speaker (via a high pass filter), its job shouldn't be getting any easier. And the sub shouldn't be contributing anything of its own much above 80-100hz depending on crossover point. So what's going on here? With line-level connections that include a high and low pass filter, I can see how this would work if done correctly. The high level connection has me mystified a little, though.

    Question prompted because we're once again considering adding a sub, and the finalists are JL and REL, who go about their business in very different ways.
    Jeff

    Main System
    Streamer/Server: Aurender N100H; Disc Player: Oppo UDP-205; DAC: Topping D90SE; Preamp: Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE Stage 2; Power Amp: ATI AT542NC; Speakers: Focal Sopra No. 3; Cables: Wireworld, Kimber, Cullin; Power: Ansuz Mainz8 X-TC, PS Audio Dectet, Furutech outlets

    Basement Media Room
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  2. #2

    Re: How does a High-Level connected sub (i.e. REL) improve midrange?

    From my personal experience, the benefit is a result of relieving your main speakers from playing below a selected frequency and letting the subs take care of that. Essentially you are letting the sub handle the lower frequencies. You need a crossover for that. Your main amps now have more reserve to play the mid/high frequencies.

  3. #3
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    Re: How does a High-Level connected sub (i.e. REL) improve midrange?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2FlyingYorkies View Post
    I keep reading reports that people who have added subs with high-level / speaker level connections (such as REL) find significant improvement in midrange and upper bass performance. I don't doubt the reports, but I'm intuitively struggling with how this is possible. If none of the load is being taken away from the main speaker (via a high pass filter), its job shouldn't be getting any easier. And the sub shouldn't be contributing anything of its own much above 80-100hz depending on crossover point. So what's going on here? With line-level connections that include a high and low pass filter, I can see how this would work if done correctly. The high level connection has me mystified a little, though.

    Question prompted because we're once again considering adding a sub, and the finalists are JL and REL, who go about their business in very different ways.
    I have a couple of REL R528SE subs in my stereo setup.

    It takes a while to define the best positioning, xover and gain but once you do get it right the result is truly good IME.

    Not only in terms of low frequency extension but also you get a sense of a much more realistic atmosphere, as if you can hear the air of the recording venue.

    I agree that the midrange improves too. I'm not very technical but I do know that the REL low pass filter isn't a brick wall so that may help to explain.

    But better still is to hear it for yourself in your own room if possible.

    BTW should you decide to buy a REL I think you should buy the best you can afford and then seriously consider adding a second one when budget allows.
    I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member - Groucho Marx

    Fanless SSD Netbook/ Cambridge CXC/ Bluesound Node 2i-> Denafrips PontusII-> Gamut Di150 LE Amp-> Monitor Audio PL100II Speakers+ two REL R528SE Subwoofers=

  4. #4
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    Re: How does a High-Level connected sub (i.e. REL) improve midrange?

    Quote Originally Posted by nicoff View Post
    From my personal experience, the benefit is a result of relieving your main speakers from playing below a selected frequency and letting the subs take care of that. Essentially you are letting the sub handle the lower frequencies. You need a crossover for that. Your main amps now have more reserve to play the mid/high frequencies.
    That's not the case whilst using the REL's high level connection.
    I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member - Groucho Marx

    Fanless SSD Netbook/ Cambridge CXC/ Bluesound Node 2i-> Denafrips PontusII-> Gamut Di150 LE Amp-> Monitor Audio PL100II Speakers+ two REL R528SE Subwoofers=

  5. #5

    Re: How does a High-Level connected sub (i.e. REL) improve midrange?

    The added low frequencies support definition of low and midrange output from the main speakers.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    “Life’s too short to listen to bad audio.”

    Big rig: Brinkmann Taurus DD TT + 12.1 arm + Lyra Etna Lambda SL MC + HRS M3X2/ Cardas Clear Beyond phono/ Stillpoints LPI/ Brinkmann Edison mk2 phono + RöNT II Tube PS/ Synology NAS with Roon + HD Plex linear PSU + Shunyata HD/ AQ Vodka RJ45 + Aqvox Network Switch SE + AQ Diamond RJ45 into DAC/ Brinkmann Nyquist mk2/ Audionet Humboldt/ Cardas Clear Beyond ICs/ Kharma DB9-S 1.1 LS/ Inakustik Reference LS 4004 AIR/ Audioquest Niagara 5000/ Shunyata Alpha power (HC, Analogue, Digital)/ Finite Elemente Pagode Rack/ Stillpoints Ultra SS/ Vicoustic panels + Stillpoints Aperture II.

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  6. #6
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    Re: How does a High-Level connected sub (i.e. REL) improve midrange?

    Hmm, that's an interesting thought - that the additional LF energy supports improved definition from the mains. So it's a foundational thing where a robust low end sets up the midrange for better sound?

    I keep coming back to the fact that without a low pass filter or crossover involved in REL's method, the main speakers are still working as hard as if the sub weren't present. So it has to be a perceived improvement, as opposed to a physical or mechanical improvement coming from a driver or amp that isn't working as hard as it used to.

    As was mentioned by Music Fiend above, when you do have a low pass filter (say with a JL Audio or most other subs), then absolutely the main speakers and amp are working less hard, and should have more headroom for midrange definition.

    I find the REL solution intriguing for a number of reasons, not the least of which is adding fewer cables and devices in the signal path for pure 2-channel use.
    Jeff

    Main System
    Streamer/Server: Aurender N100H; Disc Player: Oppo UDP-205; DAC: Topping D90SE; Preamp: Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE Stage 2; Power Amp: ATI AT542NC; Speakers: Focal Sopra No. 3; Cables: Wireworld, Kimber, Cullin; Power: Ansuz Mainz8 X-TC, PS Audio Dectet, Furutech outlets

    Basement Media Room
    Streamer/Server: Aurender N100SC; Disc Player: Panasonic DB-UP9000; Surround Pre/Pro: Monoprice Monolith HTP-1; Power Amps: Apollon NC1200SL (custom 3-channel w/Sparkos SS2590 op amps), Apollon AS3600 6-channel; Speakers: Focal Kanta No. 3, Kanta Center, 300 ICW8 (x6); Subwoofer: Rythmik F18SE (x2); Cables: Wireworld, BlueJeans; Power: Torus RM20, Furman Elite 20PFi; Room Correction: Dirac Live w/ Bass Control; Video: Sony 77" A9G OLED

  7. #7

    How does a High-Level connected sub (i.e. REL) improve midrange?

    You don’t use RELs with a low pass filter, that’s why they are connected to the speaker terminals. Instead you control sub level and cut-off frequency. They are a support, not a replacement for the LS woofer. Probably a different thing with gaming and earthquaking subs.

    And honestly, at least I would not buy hi-end speakers and cut off the woofers. Through a low pass filter you might control frequencies, but lose coherence.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    “Life’s too short to listen to bad audio.”

    Big rig: Brinkmann Taurus DD TT + 12.1 arm + Lyra Etna Lambda SL MC + HRS M3X2/ Cardas Clear Beyond phono/ Stillpoints LPI/ Brinkmann Edison mk2 phono + RöNT II Tube PS/ Synology NAS with Roon + HD Plex linear PSU + Shunyata HD/ AQ Vodka RJ45 + Aqvox Network Switch SE + AQ Diamond RJ45 into DAC/ Brinkmann Nyquist mk2/ Audionet Humboldt/ Cardas Clear Beyond ICs/ Kharma DB9-S 1.1 LS/ Inakustik Reference LS 4004 AIR/ Audioquest Niagara 5000/ Shunyata Alpha power (HC, Analogue, Digital)/ Finite Elemente Pagode Rack/ Stillpoints Ultra SS/ Vicoustic panels + Stillpoints Aperture II.

    Small rig: Naim UnitiServe/ Curious USB/ Tidal/ Linn Klimax DS3/ Shunyata Power cable/ Pass Labs INT-60/ Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II/ HiD Diamond 8/ Harbeth 30.2 40th Anniversary/ Shunyata Venom EU7 & Venom 3 HD.

    HP rig: MacBookAir/ Tidal/ Auralic Gemini 2000/ Sbooster LPSU/ Audeze LCD-2 Classic + WyWires Red/ Shunyata HD/ Shunyata Hydra 2/ Shunyata Venom.

  8. #8
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    Re: How does a High-Level connected sub (i.e. REL) improve midrange?

    I totally understand your confusion. And when I try to reason it out - it doesn't make sense why the midrange gets better when nothing has changed in the speaker. Only the addition of a sub.

    But. It absolutely does improve the mids. I guess my suggestion is to try it out and see if you hear the same things a lot of people hear before you buy the subs.
    Jock

    If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters.

    ---------

    House: Naim ND555/2PS, Naim 552, Naim 500, Studer A80/Doshi V3, Magico M2s, 2 Magico Q-Sub 15s, Lumina IC/SC, Shunyata Everest and Omega PCs.

    Workshop: Naim ND555/2 PS, VAC Master Pre, VAC Sig 200iQ, Border Patrol pre/power, Avant Garde Duo Mezzo XD, 2 Magico Q-Sub 15s, Shunyata IC/SC, Shunyata Typhon QR/Triton V3/Sigma PCs.

  9. #9

    Re: How does a High-Level connected sub (i.e. REL) improve midrange?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuoppis View Post
    The added low frequencies support definition of low and midrange output from the main speakers.

    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    After doing some research, I believe that this is the correct answer.

  10. #10

    Re: How does a High-Level connected sub (i.e. REL) improve midrange?

    thats terrible?? after doing some research?...
    right...!!!

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