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Thread: Taming The Top End
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March 13, 2018, 08:21 AM #1
Taming The Top End
https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/taming-the-top-end/
Interesting article. Paul forgets the recording, room, power, cables and electronics!
The recording and room can play a bigger role than everything.
The way I see it, varying music genres have also had an impact. In classical, an extended top end is considered a positive. It’s often called “airy” with brilliant “extension” by reviewers. In rock or pop music, that same extended top end is called hell!
I have noticed a big push by electronics and speaker manufacturers to push the top end more and more and this is not a good thing for those not solely fastened in their classical listener chair.
In the Alan Shaw of Harbeth video, he discusses this very topic.
I often wonder why manufacturers have decided excessive extension in the top end is a good thing? Most digital combined with silver cables and rooms are already bright enough! Add in sibilant as heck recordings (use the de-esser engineers!) and all hell breaks loose.
A wave guide on the tweeter helps a lot too, but we don’t see that much. Other worldly materials like diamond also helps.
Again, extension is good for the classical music lover, not for those of us that listen to everything else. Thankfully there are some designers like Kevin Hayes at VAC, Alon at Magico and Alan Shaw at Harbeth who recognize the need for balance.
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March 13, 2018, 09:02 AM #2
Re: Taming The Top End
wow... and i thought it was just me trying to get out of "high hell" -- pretty much every tweak i do is to tame the high end to get a richer, more balanced sound where the highs do not stomp on everything. NOS tubes, tinned-copper cables, etc.
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March 15, 2018, 07:07 PM #3
Re: Taming The Top End
Well, in classical music a too bright top end makes the masses of violins very hard to hear
Francisco
Aries Cerat Kassandra Ref. MKII / Taiko Extreme Server / Gryphon Essence Preamplifier and Stereo Amplifier / Rockport Atria I / REL S-812 (2) / Göbel XLR (2), Göbel Ethernet and USB Cables / MIT Magnum MA Speakers Cables / Shunyata Everest 8000 / Shunyata Omega XC (1), Sigma NR V2 (4) and Alfa NR V1 (2) / Taiko Switch / Paul Hynes SR7T Double Rail / Farad Super3 / Doepke DFS-2 40A / GigaWatt G-C16A 2P / Fuse module AHP 4Gi / Center Stage2 0.8, 1.0 and 1.5
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March 15, 2018, 08:28 PM #4
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Re: Taming The Top End
If you look at the audio response spectrum in your room as a graph, and you have a rising top end, there are two ways to address it.
1) try and reduce the top end or
2) bring up the bottom end.
Reducing reflections and toe in/out helps reduce the highs while speaker placement helps to boost the bottom. And or a combination of two.My System
Acoustic Revive RTP-4
Innuos Pulsar
Lampizator BALTIC4
Cary SLP-05
Pass XA30.5 or
Line Magnetic 845ia
Reference 3A Reflector's
Pr SVS SB3000 Subs
Cables & Tubes "subject to change without notification".
Complete system on battery power/solar
Core Audio Design Rack
DIY bass traps and custom curved diffusors.
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March 15, 2018, 08:53 PM #5
Re: Taming The Top End
There is no doubt about it, the room is a speaker. Everything about a room, its dimensions and length/width/height ratio, openings, windows, hard floors, carpeted floors, furniture and placement, acoustic treatments, and more all play into what happens to sound waves as they propagate from a speaker's drivers. Added to this immensely complicated scenario is the placement of speakers in a room, and how large and small location adjustment can impact the low frequency loading of the space, as well as soundstage accuracy. As a third speaker, the room and its contents become part of the audible performance. Move anything in the room, including yourself, and the sound changes. High frequency energy bounces off hard surfaces, always out of time with the initial wave launches, causing nulls and/or peaks. Nulls can often give the impression there is more energy at certain frequencies due to the absence of supporting frequencies. Peaks draw our attention due to the added intensity of reflected energy that is time shifted and then combined with the original high frequency energy. Low frequencies can be equally problematic. The wave lengths are large, thus moving larger volumes of air. These low frequencies can congregate and reinforce their strength at areas of right angles such as corners, particularly corners behind the speakers. Phase relationships of these low frequency waves can null certain ranges and create exaggerated peaks in other ranges. Again, this is all being done by our third speaker, the room. Add something to the room, things change. Remove something from the room, things change. It's like a tone control.
It is a fine balancing act to manage a room's impact on the sound, and this chore almost always falls in the lap of system owners. Some are fortunate to have a dedicated listen space where control over contents and locations does not have to be compromised, while others must contend with managing shared spaces and delicate or contrasting notions of aesthetics that fail to allow full optimization. The room is a serious and often overlooked transducer. Audio enthusiasts tend to want to tweak gear and cables as a solution for audible anomalies, relocating speakers as a last ditch effort, and seldom give enough attention to that third speaker, the room. Granted, sometimes circumstances demand compromises. In fact, even the best of sound system setups have had compromises made to one extent or the other. The fun thing is that all of this is part and parcel of what our high-end audio hobby is all about, and it keeps us excited, amused, and entertained as we pursue the elusive audio nirvana.Dan
STUDIO - McIntosh C1000C/P, MC2301 (2), MR88, Aurender N10, Esoteric K-01X, Shunyata Sigma spdif digital coax, Sonos Connect, Stillpoints Ultra SS & Ultra Mini, PurePower 2000, Furutech Flux 50, Michell Gyro SE, Michell HR Power Supply, SME 309, Ortofon Cadenza Black, Sonus faber Amati Anniversario
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VINTAGE - McIntosh 4300V, McIntosh MA230, Tandberg 3011A tuner, Olive 04HD, JBL 4312A
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March 15, 2018, 09:00 PM #6
- Join Date
- Feb 2016
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- west Michigan
- Posts
- 713
Re: Taming The Top End
My System
Acoustic Revive RTP-4
Innuos Pulsar
Lampizator BALTIC4
Cary SLP-05
Pass XA30.5 or
Line Magnetic 845ia
Reference 3A Reflector's
Pr SVS SB3000 Subs
Cables & Tubes "subject to change without notification".
Complete system on battery power/solar
Core Audio Design Rack
DIY bass traps and custom curved diffusors.
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March 15, 2018, 09:08 PM #7
Re: Taming The Top End
Maybe if you have ear piercing highs that can't be tamed you have the wrong gear.
Doug
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March 15, 2018, 09:49 PM #8
- Join Date
- Nov 2013
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- Minnesota
- Posts
- 1,369
Re: Taming The Top End
I am very sensitive to top end. My listening room is wood floor and all windows. I had to use Duelund resistors in the tweeters in my Magnepans to tame it. I also picked gear like my Luxman DAC along with XLR's and USB cables that tame the high end. I am finally satisfied. Even my Bug Head music player has settings that can take the sting out of poorly recorded or bright music.
My Gear- Mains System-Pass X250 amp, BAT VK-51se preamp, Luxman DA-06 DAC, Magnepan 1.6's, Thorens TD-145 TT, Dual Martin Logan Subs, Vintage Luxman T-110 Tuner, Cables-WW Platinum 7 USB, Cardas Parsec XLR, AQ Columbia DBS 72v XLR, Belden 8402 XLR.
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March 16, 2018, 09:35 AM #9
- Join Date
- Aug 2014
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- east of Seattle
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- 821
Re: Taming The Top End
I can tell you that room tuning turns a hard high frequency situation into space and scale. my room was always very live and retained energy, but until I controlled reflective hash those high frequencies would rear their ugly head from time to time. now I can sit back and enjoy the very extended high frequencies of the darTZeel amplifiers. and my Lamm ML3 tube amps and lended VAC Statement 450's are revealed as not as extended as the darts. prior to the room tuning, tube amps would be 'kinder' to high frequencies. basically limited bandwidth a bandaid on the real problem. I can see where people might prefer a tube amp simply because it's less demanding from a room and the effort to deal with reflective hash. and mostly it's not understood.
I've written many posts about my efforts on my room tuning.......and it was a huge effort. my speakers have lots of driver surface and can really move lots of air. the room tuning allows the speakers to breathe and also to push the SPL's when the music demands it. it's significant in the effort to have suspension of disbelief and feel the musical flow.
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March 16, 2018, 10:13 AM #10
Re: Taming The Top End
hate to say it, and it will make Mike roll his eyes , Altec had it figured out 40 years ago in the model 19's add a mid high and high attenuator so you can control highs and of course honkiness of horns. specifically to your liking. my original xovers had a single attentuator and it helped but wasnt enough. i built basically a copy of model 19 1200hz xover with better caps and resistors, and lots of them to get the 2nd attenuator in there at the right frequencies. it changed my whole sound and now i can totally control the highs an mid highs to my liking.
old tech is still the best techSteve
TUBES & VINYL
Is there anything else?
Rega/Ortofon/Viva 300b/KR
Music Reference 2A3
Altec/JBL
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March 16, 2018, 10:36 AM #11
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- Aug 2014
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- east of Seattle
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- 821
Re: Taming The Top End
with all due respect, you are throwing away information if you don't first fix the room. cutting off high frequency information to eliminate uncomfortable highs is another band aid approach. so many times I've solved room or signal path issues, then another thing could be adjusted for more information.
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March 16, 2018, 10:37 AM #12
Re: Taming The Top End
While there is an ounce of truth in all that, speakers, rooms, amps, system all contributing to top end woes, once that is all sorted, it becomes a fixed attribute. What isn't fixed, is the huge variability in recordings.
So a "polite" speaker with "polite" system in a moderately damped room sounds really good with bright to average recordings...and dead as a doornail with dullish ones.
Then a brightish speaker/system in a livelyish room takes that same dullish recording and makes it sound wonderful, much better than the other system...but throw on a bright track and all hell breaks loose.
Unless the system is on the fly variable, no one "setting" is going to work with all recordings.
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March 16, 2018, 11:24 AM #13
Re: Taming The Top End
yea i hear you, but i dont have room issues as i never had a dedicated room, i dont agree with acoustics(for me) because i have so much stuff in my room that there would be no way to adjust for everything. some stuff sucks in sound, some deflect. i have a lot of friends with dedicated rooms and they deal with issues i dont have or easily ignore.lol. im sure the 6 acoustic guitars hanging on the walls around my speakers do something to the sound. but i dont know what. i do know i have incredible mids, smooth highs and vocals that rival anything ive heard. and ive heard alot. my biggest issue is low end. ive too much bass for my small room. and too tight of walls around the woofers.
as AJ mentions above there are still recordings that nothing can fix.Steve
TUBES & VINYL
Is there anything else?
Rega/Ortofon/Viva 300b/KR
Music Reference 2A3
Altec/JBL
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March 16, 2018, 12:41 PM #14
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- east of Seattle
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Re: Taming The Top End
living rooms, or rather 'lived in rooms' with lots of stuff can sound excellent, either by plan or accident. you cannot judge an acoustic result by looking. but if you find you have to attenuate the tweeter excessively then maybe there are issues you can creatively solve and still retain more 'friendly' high frequency energy.
after taking more than 10 years getting my own dedicated room under control I'm the poster boy for harsh sounding dedicated rooms. OTOH there is more ultimate up side to whole frequency range optimization in a dedicated room. but it takes much more work than a lived in room with naturally occurring acoustics.
until you fix the room, you have no idea what is the recording, and what is the room, or what is the signal path, as far as what to fix or even if fixing is needed. assuming it's a recording problem is not a good way to go.
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March 16, 2018, 04:15 PM #15
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March 16, 2018, 04:33 PM #16
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March 16, 2018, 04:58 PM #17
Re: Taming The Top End
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March 16, 2018, 07:03 PM #18
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Re: Taming The Top End
Sometimes you just can't do any thing about the room. My wife put up with my Magnepans in the family room but adding room treatments would be the last straw. I had to use other avenues to help with the hi frequency energy. Wish my preamp had defeatable tone controls.
My Gear- Mains System-Pass X250 amp, BAT VK-51se preamp, Luxman DA-06 DAC, Magnepan 1.6's, Thorens TD-145 TT, Dual Martin Logan Subs, Vintage Luxman T-110 Tuner, Cables-WW Platinum 7 USB, Cardas Parsec XLR, AQ Columbia DBS 72v XLR, Belden 8402 XLR.
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March 17, 2018, 01:34 AM #19
Re: Taming The Top End
I tend to agree on this one. Proper room treatment with allow for sound improvements that are difficult obtain with even significantly more expensive gear.
On the other hand, in case trying to address any frequency separately before treating the room could bear a risk of sound imbalance at the end. That said, there also are natural environments which provide good absorption, like bookshelves. Not the kinds with glass doors though .
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk“Life’s too short to listen to bad audio.”
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March 17, 2018, 12:03 PM #20
Re: Taming The Top End
Tom
Audio:
Amati Futura Mains
Amati Homage VOX Center,
Proac Response 1sc Rears,
Three MC2301's for L,C,R
MC 602 for the rears
C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 77
Nottingham Dais with Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation
SurfacePro 3, JRiver, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC
Video:
MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material.
Lake House:
Ohm F, MC 275V, C2300, MR 80, Rega P3
OnDeck:
McIntosh MAC 4300v
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March 17, 2018, 01:01 PM #21
Re: Taming The Top End
Tom.......Good one. .
Dan
STUDIO - McIntosh C1000C/P, MC2301 (2), MR88, Aurender N10, Esoteric K-01X, Shunyata Sigma spdif digital coax, Sonos Connect, Stillpoints Ultra SS & Ultra Mini, PurePower 2000, Furutech Flux 50, Michell Gyro SE, Michell HR Power Supply, SME 309, Ortofon Cadenza Black, Sonus faber Amati Anniversario
LIVING ROOM - McIntosh C2300, MC75 (2), MR85, Magnum Dynalab 205 Signal Sleuth, Sonos Connect, Simaudio MOON Neo 260D-T, Schiit Audio Yggdrasil, Aurender N100H, Shunyata Sigma USB cable, Sony DAT 60ES, Nakamichi BX-300, Micro Seiki DD40 w/m505A tonearm, Ortofon Cadenza Blue, PS Audio P10, Furutech Flux 50, Stillpoints Ultra Mini, PMC EB1i, JL Audio f113
VINTAGE - McIntosh 4300V, McIntosh MA230, Tandberg 3011A tuner, Olive 04HD, JBL 4312A
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AudioShark forum is a leading forum site for High End Audio Discussion, Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater System Discussion, Best Home Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater Installation Discussion etc.
The AudioShark forum was created for sharing the passion of high-end Audio. We have Audiophiles from all over the world participating and sharing their knowledge. From novice to experts, you will find a friendly environment for discussing about High End Audio, Stereo System, Home Theater System, Home Stereo System, Home Theater Installation, Amplifiers, Speakers, Subwoofers, Integrated System, Acoustic treatments & Digital Room Corrections and many more.
At AudioShark, we also have incorporated an exciting Marketplace where members can peruse terrific buys on used gear, as well as meet dealers and discuss the purchase of new gear.
We are as crazy about this hobby as you are! So come on in and join us! Audioshark.org the Friendliest Audio Forum!
Industry Participation Disclosure : The owner and administrator of Audioshark is the owner of Suncoast Audio LLC in Sarasota Florida. Suncoast Audio has a full brick and mortar presence in Sarasota with several great show rooms with many world class brands. More information can be found at http://www.suncoastaudio.com
Audioshark is a community of like minded individuals. Audioshark welcomes participation from all manufacturers and owners of all brands and products. It is our belief that online forums provide a community of like minded audiophiles and music lovers to encourage the growth of this wonderful hobby.
Sincerely,
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