Belt Drive Tables Stink

[Mr Peabody]

That's saying something. Is that with same cart? Anyone ever comment what they like better about the 1200, just sound better?

I haven't compared them to a Clearaudio. There's a local client with a Clearaudio Concept who's interested in the Technics, so we might do a shootout one of these days.
So far, we've done shootouts here with Regas (P6 and P8s), and VPIs (Classic and Prime). Those ALWAYS ended up in a Technics sale.
We currently have a slightly used Rega P6 with upgraded power supply, in case anyone's interested


cheers,
alex

[a.wayne]

You still haven’t answered the question.

Funny, I see you are as big a troll  as ever and as sloppy about your facts as you are your knowledge.

What facts are we missing ?

Ok, I do see where you have exchanged the 3 ft apart logans for 3 ft apart Magico's ,

i'm guessing here, up todate ?

Curious , in your current setup is the image height above you when you stand or only when seated , a good test for Image height in Your setup is to use the Chesky test disc no1 , LEDR test ..

very good test for your speakers/ room interactions, more than a few recordings have different image height's , Belafonte for eg is above the orchestra on stage , the recording when played accurately will have him standing above and not on the same plane as the orchestra...

Most systems fail this test , some from poor design some from poor room ceiling reflection control or both ..



Regards


PS If you don't undersrand the LEDR test , no problem , i will gladly explain it to you , give me a PM.....

[a.wayne]

I've been bugging Mat to create a sub-$10K VPI DD TT. Fingers crossed it happens. The Technics looks good.

Considering the platter is attached directly to the drive shaft only way to really deal with this is via a good platter mat or two piece platter. I would also like to see the platter extended from the motor , thinking 6 inches from platter ..


Regards

[Mr Peabody]

Alex, looks like the 1200 is more expensive than the Concept, RP8, not sure what the Classics cost. I see various prices for the 1200 from $4100 to $5900, are there different versions or packages?

[a.wayne]

I got me some of this and I got me some of that...

So why are you being such a secret squirrel about what gear you actually own? It's always helpful in order to put someone's comments into perspective when they actually divulge the names and models of the gear they are listening to in their system.

When you can hear the whir whir of the Rim drive and the clip clip of your ARC I will .....

Anyway i have heard Karls Nola and find them very good , so I'm sure you now have good sound , i bet you would find them much better if you would actually power them correctly ...

[a.wayne]

i'd say in the mid market idler's are the PRAT champs, with their mechanical leverage advantages, sometimes adding noise. belts are space, ease and flow champs, dd lowest noise and steady speed, second place in PRAT.....slightly less sexy (less of their own signature).

these are generalities I recognize mostly in the low to mid (under $15k-$20k) list price range. above that spot all the approaches seem to get closer. then mostly belts at the 'super uber' level. the Saskia being the outlier (a dead quiet super uber idler) and lamented gone from the marketplace.....greatly missed.

Uncle Mike ,

15-20k TT is not low to mid price for us plebs , i'm thinking Hi- end when prices hit 20K






Regards

[Mike Lavigne]

Uncle Mike ,

15-20k TT is not low to mid price for us plebs , i'm thinking Hi- end when prices hit 20K






Regards

fair enough, those are list prices, not street prices. these are all high end, just not tip top of it.

and there are vintage TT's with new plinths in that $10k-$15k range that fit that profile too. to me that is the mid-point and where the drive approach seems to still show up sonically. above that point execution seems to improve and the negatives are much less obvious and it's more slightly different flavors.

just my viewpoint.

agree that $20k cash gets you into the top flight area one way or another. not bleeding edge top, but top none the less.

maybe the soon to be released SP-10R in a custom plinth will turn this upside down. we will just have to wait for a few production examples to get out there to be compared.

[asiufy]

That's saying something. Is that with same cart? Anyone ever comment what they like better about the 1200, just sound better?

Hi,

I don't remember if all the comparisons were done with the same cart, since I don't do the actual analog setups I do remember that one client actually had the same Ortofon 2M cart on his table as we had on our 1200GR, so that was easy.

The comments, including post-sale, generally are about the solidity of the bass, and a greater perceived impact of instruments (their speed). Build quality is usually mentioned as well, as folks are generally happy and impressed with the overall package, even on the 1200GR.

[asiufy]

Alex, looks like the 1200 is more expensive than the Concept, RP8, not sure what the Classics cost. I see various prices for the 1200 from $4100 to $5900, are there different versions or packages?

The 1200GR is $1700, and the 1200G is $4000. There is a limited edition 1200GAE also, slightly better than the 1200G, but that's long gone (1200 units globally).

I lost track of all the VPI models, but I believe the VPI we had was the $6000 Classic, with the 3D printed tonearm.

[bonzo]

My two cents:

RIM drives suck ass, especially if you have high efficiency speakers.
I love well designed DD tables. The key is proper isolation from the motor or the vibrations are transmitted back into the cart/arm. DD tables have excellent PRAT. This would be my preference because of speed perfection. In my opinion, speed perfection is paramount to world class vinyl playback.
Belt drives are a safe smart bet. They don’t have the micro resonance issues or risks associated with some DD tables and are generally speed acceptable.

Schroeder, Schick, PTP of PTP lenco, the western electric room in Munich, and a few others who have very high efficiency horns all prefer best restored idlers in their system. Mainly Garrard, 124 or Lenco.

[Mike]

Schroeder, Schick, PTP of PTP lenco, the western electric room in Munich, and a few others who have very high efficiency horns all prefer best restored idlers in their system. Mainly Garrard, 124 or Lenco.

So? Idler is similar but different from RIM. This RIM implementation didn’t work for me or Rick. Maybe with Mark’s they’ve ironed out the bugs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bonzo]

I was just commenting regarding idlers. I don't know about rims, my point is well restored idlers can avoid the noise effect through horns. If someone did a similar thing to rim, it might work.

[Mike]

I was just commenting regarding idlers. I don't know about rims, my point is well restored idlers can avoid the noise effect through horns. If someone did a similar thing to rim, it might work.

An Idler is definitely a good way to go, just not popular on many modern tables. Not sure why. Probably cost.

[mep]

i'd say in the mid market idler's are the PRAT champs, with their mechanical leverage advantages, sometimes adding noise. belts are space, ease and flow champs, dd lowest noise and steady speed, second place in PRAT.....slightly less sexy (less of their own signature).

these are generalities I recognize mostly in the low to mid (under $15k-$20k) list price range. above that spot all the approaches seem to get closer. then mostly belts at the 'super uber' level. the Saskia being the outlier (a dead quiet super uber idler) and lamented gone from the marketplace.....greatly missed.

I hate the term "PRAT," but since I live in the "low to mid list price range," I have to say the SP-10 MKII will give many tables a run for their money in terms of speed accuracy, low noise, and high fidelity regardless of price. The new SP-10R might just shake things up in the turntable world if it is clearly better than the SP-10 MKIII. The good news for some people might be that the SP-10 MKIII will drop in price enough that some people who wanted them will now be able to afford them.

[bonzo]

I hate the term "PRAT," but since I live in the "low to mid list price range," I have to say the SP-10 MKII will give many tables a run for their money in terms of speed accuracy, low noise, and high fidelity regardless of price. The new SP-10R might just shake things up in the turntable world if it is clearly better than the SP-10 MKIII. The good news for some people might be that the SP-10 MKIII will drop in price enough that some people who wanted them will now be able to afford them.

Yes, the modded vintage technics will be less wanted and drop in price due to new one. Long term I see myself with a schopper restored TD 124 and a modded technics though not sure what plinth etc yet will have to look at that.

[Mikado463]

a < $10k VPI DD would be nice! and the new technics sl-1200gr does look good - a lot of nice enhancements in the new version.

the Technics, at it's price point is better than good, more like superb ! The reality is though, there are a fair number of audiophile / snobophiles that wouldn't' touch it.

[mep]

When you can hear the whir whir of the Rim drive and the clip clip of your ARC I will .....

Anyway i have heard Karls Nola and find them very good , so I'm sure you now have good sound , i bet you would find them much better if you would actually power them correctly ...

Same old BS. Why don't you tell Carl (not Karl) that he didn't know what he was doing when he decided upon the Ref 75 to be his amplifier of choice when he brought the KO speakers to market? I'm sure Carl would be glad to hear from a genius like you so he can learn how to properly pick an amplifier for his speaker designs.

[mep]

Yes, the modded vintage technics will be less wanted and drop in price due to new one. Long term I see myself with a schopper restored TD 124 and a modded technics though not sure what plinth etc yet will have to look at that.

Are you in a contest with RR to see who can drag out the purchase of a real stereo system the longest? RR has been down since 2012. How long have you been without a functioning stereo system? Doing your homework is one thing, but we are way past the point of having multiple honorary Ph.Ds for all of the *homework* and reports that have been written by you and RR. Is there a system coming to your house in the "short term" or is your system still years out?

[a.wayne]

Same old BS. Why don't you tell Carl (not Karl) that he didn't know what he was doing when he decided upon the Ref 75 to be his amplifier of choice when he brought the KO speakers to market? I'm sure Carl would be glad to hear from a genius like you so he can learn how to properly pick an amplifier for his speaker designs.

Ok Clip City ...


I would , communication was not unusual amongst designers when at the same shows , also he and i were the only ones selling semi Dipole speakers , Alon for Him which is now NOLA ,( alon backwards ) unlike an empty barrel like you , discussion is usually accepted ...

BTW as a pretender reviewing , you lose all credibility with such diatribe and constant dogma , How can anyone take any of your reviews seriously...


Chooo

[mep]

Ok Clip City ...


I would , communication was not unusual amongst designers when at the same shows , also he and i were the only ones selling semi Dipole speakers , Alon for Him which is now NOLA ,( alon backwards ) unlike an empty barrel like you , discussion is usually accepted ...

BTW as a pretender reviewing , you lose all credibility with such diatribe and constant dogma , How can anyone take any of your reviews seriously... Chooo

I think you were looking in the mirror when you typed that sentence. You have been running your mouth about my Ref 75 since I bought it and your constant diatribe and dogma about it being a clipping machine with the KO speakers has been never ending. But these pot shots are coming from someone who is embarrassed to list the gear in his own system.

Are you still in mourning that Crown went out of business?

[a.wayne]

fair enough, those are list prices, not street prices. these are all high end, just not tip top of it.

and there are vintage TT's with new plinths in that $10k-$15k range that fit that profile too. to me that is the mid-point and where the drive approach seems to still show up sonically. above that point execution seems to improve and the negatives are much less obvious and it's more slightly different flavors.

just my viewpoint.

agree that $20k cash gets you into the top flight area one way or another. not bleeding edge top, but top none the less.

maybe the soon to be released SP-10R in a custom plinth will turn this upside down. we will just have to wait for a few production examples to get out there to be compared.

Agree totally, the refinement and accuracy at the pointy end takes chunks of cash for every gain , nothing linear about the cost performance . No way to get that level of refinement with 20K ...

This was obvious to me also when i heard Sharky Mikes Belt drive Cronos setup and analog front end, it exhibits a high level of refinement..


Regards

[CPP]

Agree totally, the refinement and accuracy at the pointy end takes chunks of cash for every gain , nothing linear about the cost performance . No way to get that level of refinement with 20K ...

This was obvious to me also when i heard Sharky Mikes Belt drive Cronos setup and analog front end, it exhibits a high level of refinement..


Regards

So your Post Header "" Belt Drive Tables Stink " is only related to belt drive turn tables that cost X number of dollars.

[a.wayne]

I was just commenting regarding idlers. I don't know about rims, my point is well restored idlers can avoid the noise effect through horns. If someone did a similar thing to rim, it might work.

An idler is a Rim drive system , unless Im missing something about Mikes VPI setup. BTW i do expect the lenco back soon So we will see if the BD 's stay ..

BTW , I have in the past , experienced the same noise issues Mike was having , usually caused from a noisy worn wheel or misalignment but they are noisy vs BD for sure , if you are used to the dead silence of BD's a Idler will be much different .

my 2 cents.

[bonzo]

Are you in a contest with RR to see who can drag out the purchase of a real stereo system the longest? RR has been down since 2012. How long have you been without a functioning stereo system? Doing your homework is one thing, but we are way past the point of having multiple honorary Ph.Ds for all of the *homework* and reports that have been written by you and RR. Is there a system coming to your house in the "short term" or is your system still years out?

With brexit places are tough to sell. Audio is a great dream but reality is harsher. Also if the current place sells it will be impossible to make a judgement on whether to buy until the brexit deal becomes clear. Prices are much lower from two years ago and further dropping. That's reality. And yes, Berning and atmasphere were bought my me and shipped to a friend's house since he has horns, as has been other gear, so that's how I whet my gear appetite.

[bonzo]

An idler is a Rim drive system , unless Im missing something about Mikes VPI setup. BTW i do expect the lenco back soon So we will see if the BD 's stay ..

BTW , I have in the past , experienced the same noise issues Mike was having , usually caused from a noisy worn wheel or misalignment but they are noisy vs BD for sure , if you are used to the dead silence of BD's a Idler will be much different .

my 2 cents.

The lenco I understand is very difficult to make quiet. Best to get PTPs

[a.wayne]

I think you were looking in the mirror when you typed that sentence. You have been running your mouth about my Ref 75 since I bought it and your constant diatribe and dogma about it being a clipping machine with the KO speakers has been never ending. But these pot shots are coming from someone who is embarrassed to list the gear in his own system.

Are you still in mourning that Crown went out of business?

Yes,

Right after i threw out my hard sounding KSA250 , you know the amp you blah blah blah about for yrs ...

[a.wayne]

The lenco I understand is very difficult to make quiet. Best to get PTPs

My crazy Tooby designer has it , claiming magic dust mods , we will see ...

.

[Mike Lavigne]

The good news for some people might be that the SP-10 MKIII will drop in price enough that some people who wanted them will now be able to afford them.

true. and here is a great example of that;

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...idelity-plinth

this (if it's not yet sold) is a steal, and Ki is a super credible guy to deal with.

[MDP]

Will some of you please refrain from the childish bickering.

Keep it civil!!

[Joseph R.]

Will some of you please refrain from the childish bickering.

Keep it civil!!

Thanks Mark: No matter what table you consider ‘best’, I started this thread simply to question the overwhelming dominant technology of the day. I was expecting to get bombarded with negative comments. When a company like VPI ( who built their reputation with belt drives ) produces a DD as their flagship, something does not add up.

On the other hand, Rega remains steadfast in the direction of belt drives.

I recently returned to direct drive for the speed consistency and torque. Understanding that high torque does not make a TT sound good, one cannot deny it’s convienence.

I remember the 1970’s when pivotal tone arms were questioned. A very small number of manufacturers produced linear tracking arms. When Garrard was producing zero tracking error tone arms, and Dual was making rim drives. It was all very exciting. I miss that environment of creativity and innovation. We now base the level of quality on one thing. The price.

[jtsnead77]

I have not read the whole thread but I will chime in below. Also I have several people ask me about why I changed to the Technics table, see below:


I Have the SL1200G and I sold a Prime once I got it. I have not said too much about the VPI but I feel that the 3D arm when released was not a completely finished product. I tried to get along with the newer 3D arm on a Prime and ultimately had to sell it because I feel the arm is not that easy to use repeatedly and is frustrating to live with.

A little back ground, like you I have been a passionate music lover and collector since the 70's. My first turntable was an Hitachi that I bought over the Harmon Kardon table with the Rabco linear tracking tone arm and it sounded great, but I always liked the engineering and the argument that linear trackers should be the best way to play a record. So in the 80's after I bought my first house I got a VPI HW19 with a Eminent Technology air bearing linear tracking arm and it was a huge step up in sound quality. I used that until I was intrigued by the VPI Scout with the uni-pivot arm they offered so I got one of those but felt the arm gave up some transparency to the ET, so I started researching tone arms and found a new company out of England Trans-Fi and the Terminator tone arm I bought the second generation of that arm and was back to what I had with the ET but with less fiddling I had with the ET. I did all the upgrades over the years that they offered and was very happy until last year when I started having issues keeping the arm working I probably need a new pump reservoir tank etc. but getting near retirement age I wanted to keep thinks simpler so I started looking for a replacement player and noticed all the press VPI was getting with the new Prime.

Since I already had the SDS speed drive box why not get the new Prime, so I sold my Scout with the Terminator 3 and bought a open box Prime to replace it. The dealer installed my Ortofon Quintet Black on the table so that I would be ready to go once I set it up. So I thought. Due the 3D arms construction it is very difficult to get the tracking force and azimuth set. The weight that you have to slide back and forth to adjust tracking force has a screw that you have to tighten down but if you tighten too hard it can leave an impression on the back of the arm which will interfere with setting the weight for other cartridges also once you have the weight set you have to turn the weight left and right to set azimuth which messes with the tracking force. You are supposed to use the outrigger weights but they did not work well at all. I found it very frustrating and not as easy as I wanted. It is funny that on the forums nobody talks about the difficulty of this arm. Also bought the counter intuitive and that did make it easier, then the 2nd pivot came out and I was just fed up with the arm every time I wanted to change out a cartridge. The frustration I was and sure others were having must have of been noticed because they released a gimbaled arm.

Due to my frustration I started looking at other tables and noticed people talking about the Technics SL1200G/GAE so I bought one and was able to install it and compare to the Prime. As far as set up WOW what a difference I can put the cartridge on the removable head shell align it with a protractor set VTA, VTF and be ready to go in 20 minutes. The sound is amazing the bass is just as good as the VPI, the mid-range and clarity are better, better resolving of echos and hall sound. The PRAT is amazing piano notes decay better and more clearer. I hear every change with up grades I have done, better head shells and mats that I have tried. Right now I am using the Audio Technica ART9 with the Yamamoto HS-4 head shell and the Funk Firm 5mm mat all for the better. Also have used my Ortofon Quintet Black and next up I am going to try my Grace F9 and Sumiko Talisman S and it wont drive me crazy setting them up.

This will be my retirement turn table, no regrets at all.

[asiufy]

Very cool!

I just got a fully loaded VPI Prime Signature for sale now... Guess what he replaced that with?

[Mikado463]

This will be my retirement turn table, no regrets at all.[/COLOR]

couldn't agree more, while I have no desire to replace my Aries 3 at the moment if I did it would be to the Technics, add cartridge of choice and just set back and enjoy !

[jtsnead77]

Very cool!

I just got a fully loaded VPI Prime Signature for sale now... Guess what he replaced that with?

They traded in on a G?

[asiufy]

They traded in on a G?

GAE, the limited edition one.

[Audio 1]

GAE, the limited edition one.

Which cartridge are they using on the GAE?

[Mr Peabody]

I hope no one feels price equates to performance, at least in all instances, we hope we get what we pay for. At least for myself, I'm always willing to try a "giant killer", being an audiophile on a budget.

When I hit the "crossroad", some years back deciding to stay with a turntable and my LP collection, I learned there really is no rule of thumb with analog, it seemed everyone was doing what they wanted. Advice on how to proceed upward was all over the board. It is also near impossible to get close to an apples to apples comparison of different tables.

When I was in high school I got to borrow a friend's Dual for a bit, I thought that was the coolest table. For one it sounded better than anything I've used up to that point, but it also had the strobe on it and such. I think mine was a BSR at that time.

If I had known in the 80's a turntable could sound as good as it can I sure wouldn't have been so quick to jump to digital, nor would I have let go of some LP's along the way. We all know about hindsight though, LOL

[asiufy]

Which cartridge are they using on the GAE?

I hooked him up with an Ortofon A95.

[a.wayne]

I hope no one feels price equates to performance, at least in all instances, we hope we get what we pay for. At least for myself, I'm always willing to try a "giant killer", being an audiophile on a budget.

When I hit the "crossroad", some years back deciding to stay with a turntable and my LP collection, I learned there really is no rule of thumb with analog, it seemed everyone was doing what they wanted. Advice on how to proceed upward was all over the board. It is also near impossible to get close to an apples to apples comparison of different tables.

When I was in high school I got to borrow a friend's Dual for a bit, I thought that was the coolest table. For one it sounded better than anything I've used up to that point, but it also had the strobe on it and such. I think mine was a BSR at that time.

If I had known in the 80's a turntable could sound as good as it can I sure wouldn't have been so quick to jump to digital, nor would I have let go of some LP's along the way. We all know about hindsight though, LOL

A good 70 or 80's TT setup will still sound very good today , frankly even better than they did back then due to the loudspeakers technology available at the time.

Most current day woofers with their much better linear X-Max brings out how well LP playback bandwidth can be ...


Regards

[Moby]

Due the 3D arms construction it is very difficult to get the tracking force and azimuth set. The weight that you have to slide back and forth to adjust tracking force has a screw that you have to tighten down but if you tighten too hard it can leave an impression on the back of the arm which will interfere with setting the weight for other cartridges also once you have the weight set you have to turn the weight left and right to set azimuth which messes with the tracking force. You are supposed to use the outrigger weights but they did not work well at all. I found it very frustrating and not as easy as I wanted. It is funny that on the forums nobody talks about the difficulty of this arm. Also bought the counter intuitive and that did make it easier, then the 2nd pivot came out and I was just fed up with the arm every time I wanted to change out a cartridge. The frustration I was and sure others were having must have of been noticed because they released a gimbaled arm.

I had exactly the same issues with the 3D on a Classic 3 - I’m glad to hear I was not alone in this - and ended up trading it towards a Clearaudio Ovation with a Universal arm. Much easier to set up, much easier to use, sounds superb. This is also my retirement rig and one that I can easily live with.

[jtsnead77]

I had exactly the same issues with the 3D on a Classic 3 - I’m glad to hear I was not alone in this - and ended up trading it towards a Clearaudio Ovation with a Universal arm. Much easier to set up, much easier to use, sounds superb. This is also my retirement rig and one that I can easily live with.

Awesome, love the look of the Universal arm and Clearaudio stuff in general, really wish I could try the TT5 on this table but just do not want to mess with taking it a apart and getting an arm board etc.

[Moby]

As much as I am intrigued by the TT5, and it’s price is reasonable, I just couldn’t get past the idea that it would be finicky to set up and live with - which I’m trying to avoid. The Universal is an amazing piece of engineering and hand craftsmanship and I don’t think arms get much better than this. I’d always wanted a top of the line SME arm, now I don’t.

[Elztalbiker]

The Universal is one of the best radial arms. The TT 5 don't reach this level. The TT3 is n the same level like the universal with some other characteristics. I prefer the TT3, better soundstage, more resolution, a bit less bass and a little less dynamic


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[Joseph R.]

Thanks for your input everyone. This thread took on a bigger life than I ever imagined.

[petek]

I've had 3 belt drives--a Technics SLB2, a Project Debut Carbon, and an EAT C Sharp. They've all been good.