MSB Launches Two New DAC’s

[Mike]

Good spot!

We will all know the answers to these questions a while after Mike takes delivery of his Premiere...

I’m counting the days until the Premier and Discrete arrive.

[AJR]

It’s a shame that there is a 20% restocking fee if the Premier power base upgrade happens later. I understand why though. I will free-ride and wait to hear what people think about the merits of an upgrade.

[Mike]

It’s a shame that there is a 20% restocking fee if the Premier power base upgrade happens later. I understand why though. I will free-ride and wait to hear what people think about the merits of an upgrade.

I ordered both the upgraded power supply and stock one so people can compare.

[UltraFast69]

All ears...


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[AJR]

Does anyone know if the MSB network renderer module includes a buffering function eg when streaming Tidal through it, and if so how many seconds?

[AJR]

MSB confirmed to my dealer that the renderer module does buffer and the level of buffering depends on the source format.

I decided to take the plunge and so a Premier with Powerbase and Renderer module is on order! Delivery is August/September - there is a big backlog of orders.

[Alpinist]

I’m counting the days until the Premier and Discrete arrive.

I’m counting the days until my Select II DAC arrives as well! Thanks again Mike for making the dream come true. I also appreciate all the help you’re giving me with the selection of the Roon Nucleus Plus, Router and NAS, as well as their configuration. I wouldn’t have been able to figure it out without your help.

Best,
Ken

[Mike]

MSB confirmed to my dealer that the renderer module does buffer and the level of buffering depends on the source format.

I decided to take the plunge and so a Premier with Powerbase and Renderer module is on order! Delivery is August/September - there is a big backlog of orders.

WOOT!! Awesome news!! Congrats.

I’m counting the days until my Select II DAC arrives as well! Thanks again Mike for making the dream come true. I also appreciate all the help you’re giving me with the selection of the Roon Nucleus Plus, Router and NAS, as well as their configuration. I wouldn’t have been able to figure it out without your help.

Best,
Ken

You're very welcome Ken. I'm so happy for you. You've been a huge Select II fan ever since you first heard it. There is simply nothing that comes close that I've heard.

[Kuoppis]

MSB confirmed to my dealer that the renderer module does buffer and the level of buffering depends on the source format.

I decided to take the plunge and so a Premier with Powerbase and Renderer module is on order! Delivery is August/September - there is a big backlog of orders.

Congrats AJR, great choice! I liked what heard in Munich.


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[Kuoppis]

I’m counting the days until my Select II DAC arrives as well! Thanks again Mike for making the dream come true. I also appreciate all the help you’re giving me with the selection of the Roon Nucleus Plus, Router and NAS, as well as their configuration. I wouldn’t have been able to figure it out without your help.

Best,
Ken

Congrats Ken, nice to hear you took the big plunge. Amazing product.

You know you don’t really own it, if you don’t post pictures .


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[Jabba]

I’m counting the days until the Premier and Discrete arrive.

My Premier DAC will be sent in two weeks. Add some days for shipping and customs clearance and we write early July. I ordered a little late (march) so it was sent in batch number two.

Unfortunately, I’m not home then and have to wait until mid-July. Then I have some time to choose a server solution that is Roon ready.

Mike, hope you are in the first batch and can post pictures and listening impressions.

[AJR]

This is not a big issue for me as 99% of my music listening is from Tidal or my NAS (soon to be coordinated thru Roon) but is it possible to stream music from an iOS device thru Airplay via Roon and the MSB ethernet renderer?

[AJR]

PS - I know the sound quality limitations of Airplay.

[AJR]

A question for MSB, Lumin and Roon users in light of Tidal's financial and legal difficulties (not sure how real it all is, but it has given me pause for thought).

My plan was to feed my MSB Premier with streaming from Tidal and my NAS via Roon (I would buy the Nucleus + as the core) and into my Premier through the ethernet renderer input module. Importantly, while I appreciate the benefits of Roon from a user interface perspective, that it is not a driver for me as I am more than happy with the Lumin interface. I thought about keeping my Lumin T1 and using its digital out to feed the MSB Premier but the consensus seems to be that this is not a good idea - the sonics will likely be inferior compared to the alternatives.

What I am a little worried about by relying on Roon as my user interface and streaming consolidation to feed my MSB Premier is that I will be putting all my eggs in one basket. If Tidal goes under then I would be relying on Roon and alternative streaming platforms (eg Qobuz, Spotify) and the 'next big thing' streaming platform working together, which is no certainty (and from what I can gather, unlikely at present in the case of Qobuz). One of the great things about Lumin is that it is compatible with many different streaming platforms and seems quickly to take on board new ones through its ongoing updating program.

So what I am now thinking of doing is buying a Lumin U1 and using its USB digital out to feed the Quadrate USB MQA input module for the Premier, instead of Rooning-up and using the Premier etherner renderer input module. The cost of a Lumin U1 will be significantly more expensive than Rooning-up (Nucleus + plus Roon membership fees), but maybe it would be a safer bet. Not sure if there will be any sonic advantages either way.

Any thoughts would be gratefully received.

Andrew

[nicoff]

I only invested in Roon (lifetime membership) because of the integration with Tidal. Without Tidal (or another music service) I would not have invested in Roon because there are other alternatives (like Logitech media server which is free) at much lesser cost. That said, if one has a good size music collection, Roon has a great GUI and offers the best music database management available. My hope is that Roon can partner with another music service provider that streams CD quality music.

[KeithR]

So what I am now thinking of doing is buying a Lumin U1 and using its USB digital out to feed the Quadrate USB MQA input module for the Premier, instead of Rooning-up and using the Premier etherner renderer input module. The cost of a Lumin U1 will be significantly more expensive than Rooning-up (Nucleus + plus Roon membership fees), but maybe it would be a safer bet. Not sure if there will be any sonic advantages either way.

Hey AJR, I'm in the same boat on Roon/Tidal - and that's why I didn't go with a Nucleus. I went with an Innuous which can run any UPnP program, so not stuck with Roon/Tidal. In fact, I've considered just using Linn Kazoo or something instead of paying for lifetime Roon. I would definitely recommend a server with ethernet to take advantage of MSB's renderer - and the new MSB renderer apparently sounds amazing.

I love the integration with Roon, but don't use much of its features (background reading, etc). I am on a yearly Roon membership, but need to figure out year 2 soon. Qobuz is coming to the states, so maybe Roon will integrate with them too (or may already, don't know).

[AJR]

Keith - thanks for this. I had not come across Innuous before. Reading up on it now it looks perfect for what I want: flexibility to run different streaming services, UPnP, and I can connect via ethernet cable to my MSB when it arrives. And a CD ripper! There must be some downside to it?

[KeithR]

Keith - thanks for this. I had not come across Innuous before. Reading up on it now it looks perfect for what I want: flexibility to run different streaming services, UPnP, and I can connect via ethernet cable to my MSB when it arrives. And a CD ripper! There must be some downside to it?

It's a nice sounding unit with good flexibility. You might also check out Melco, Antipodes, and Small Green Computer as well. They all are a bit different and I'm not sure what's easiest for you to audition or purchase.

As far as downside? well, its still a computer (ha!) unlike a Lumin or Aries G2. I will say the Innuous IP-based interface is as easy as it gets though.

[nicoludio]

@ AJR

I previously had the Lumin A1 and (still have) a Synology NAS and had gotten used to the Lumin app and user interface (although the Linn Kinsky and now the fidata apps work quite well too).

# uPnP / OpenHome / Lumin app

The Lumin app is an OpenHome app. Based on the user manual for version 1 of the MSB renderer module (www.msbtech.com/support/RendererManual.pdf), it is uPnP compatible but it is not (yet?) OpenHome compatible, so it would not be possible to connect the MSB and Synology NAS via ethernet and still be able to use the Lumin app. Things could be different for version 2 of the MSB renderer.

I discovered this uPnP / OpenHome distinction when trying the Weiss DAC502 with my Melco N1A (soon be replaced with the N1ZH).

# Using Lumin app with compatible server and USB

Otoh, with my Melco N1A running MinimServer, I was able to use the Lumin app when the Weiss was connected to the Melco via USB.

# USB vs ethernet inputs

While I was happy to be able to use the Lumin app through the USB output of the Melco, on extended listening, I felt that the ethernet input of the Weiss DAC502 was better than its USB input, even when the ethernet connection was handicapped by using an entry level LAN cable (Supra Cat 7) vs a high end USB cable (Acoustic Revive).

Therefore, if it is possible to extrapolate, subject to the usual YMMV caveats, the ethernet input of the MSB is likely to outperform the USB input.

# ROON with Synology / QNAP NAS

I understand that is now possible to run ROON in a Synology / QNAP NAS, depending on the specifications and processor used. You might want to explore this option.

[Alpinist]

I’m still crossing my fingers and toes that everything will work out with my Roon Nucleus Plus that I recently purchased and my Synology NAS, once I take delivery on my Select II DAC. I hope I don’t have to jump ship!

Ken

[AJR]

Is it fair to say that the general consensus amongst MSB owners/those who have done extensive listening that the latest ethernet renderer input module is superior to the quadrate USB input module all other things being equal, or is it very input dependent?

My MSB dealer (who also deals Lumin) says that many of his MSB customers also buy a Lumin U1 and use the USB output rather than using a server (although he doesn’t sell any media servers, so...).

[Alpinist]

Is it fair to say that the general consensus amongst MSB owners/those who have done extensive listening that the latest ethernet renderer input module is superior to the quadrate USB input module all other things being equal, or is it very input dependent?

My MSB dealer (who also deals Lumin) says that many of his MSB customers also buy a Lumin U1 and use the USB output rather than using a server (although he doesn’t sell any media servers, so...).

Mike has both so he should be able to comment.

Ken

[Mike]

Is it fair to say that the general consensus amongst MSB owners/those who have done extensive listening that the latest ethernet renderer input module is superior to the quadrate USB input module all other things being equal, or is it very input dependent?

My MSB dealer (who also deals Lumin) says that many of his MSB customers also buy a Lumin U1 and use the USB output rather than using a server (although he doesn’t sell any media servers, so...).

The renderer is quite a bit better than USB via the U1 or a similar device on the MSB.

[AJR]

Thanks Mike. In that case, I think Innuos it is for me (thanks Ken!) over the Nucleus + and the Lumin U1.

[Mike]

Thanks Mike. In that case, I think Innuos it is for me (thanks Ken!) over the Nucleus + and the Lumin U1.

Stick with the MSB Renderer and a Roon Nucleus+, that’s my two cents.

[AJR]

Thanks Mike. In that case, I think Innuos it is for me (thanks Ken!) over the Nucleus + and the Lumin U1.

Sorry Keith, I meant to thank you re Innuos suggestion. I am trying it out tomorrow.

[AJR]

Stick with the MSB Renderer and a Roon Nucleus+, that’s my two cents.

Thanks Mike. Do you think I am being paranoid about being ‘locked into’ Roon and Tidal?

[Mike]

Thanks Mike. Do you think I am being paranoid about being ‘locked into’ Room and Tidal?

Yes. I’m sure Roon is finding alternatives like Quboz


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[Mike Lavigne]

The renderer is quite a bit better than USB via the U1 or a similar device on the MSB.

so far on the MSB Select II the new MSB renderer (with SGM as Roon core) is neck and neck with my SGM server w/USB (using Curious USB cable---modest priced) when I go back and forth......maybe the very slightest nod to the renderer. if a different device were used as a Roon core, might that lower the Renderer level of performance? don't know that......yet. the SGM might take things to the highest possible level used as a Roon core, or with USB.

the SGM is due for a significant upgrade soon to 'MK II, 'Evo spec'. we will see what does to the equation.

[AJR]

Other than Nucleus and Innuos, what are people using to feed their MSB renderer?

[Alpinist]

so far on the MSB Select II the new MSB renderer (with SGM as Roon core) is neck and neck with my SGM server w/USB (using Curious USB cable---modest priced) when I go back and forth......maybe the very slightest nod to the renderer. if a different device were used as a Roon core, might that lower the Renderer level of performance? don't know that......yet. the SGM might take things to the highest possible level used as a Roon core, or with USB.

the SGM is due for a significant upgrade soon to 'MK II, 'Evo spec'. we will see what does to the equation.

Hi Mike,

Please explain your configuration and connections for your MSB Renderer Input Module. Just curious if you are getting the full potential out of it compared to Mike B.’s setup.

Thanks,
Ken

[AJR]

Would love to know if anyone is feeding their MSB with a Lumin U1 via the USB input module (and if so, what alternatives were considered and why Lumin was chosen). I am partial to Lumin for a whole bunch of reasons (including track record of quickly adopting, for free, new streaming services and formats like MQA, as well as customer service) and am almost looking for reasons not to get a U1. My dealer has a customer feeding his MSB Select this way and said it was better than using the ethernet renderer with his server. I don’t know what server he was using though.

[Kingsrule]

Isn't the SGM an optimized USB server? If so all observations regarding ethernet are probably compromised...

[Alpinist]

Isn't the SGM an optimized USB server? If so all observations regarding ethernet are probably compromised...

This is what I was wondering too. See my question to Mike L. in post #81.

Ken

[AJR]

Would love to know if anyone is feeding their MSB with a Lumin U1 via the USB input module (and if so, what alternatives were considered and why Lumin was chosen). I am partial to Lumin for a whole bunch of reasons (including track record of quickly adopting, for free, new streaming services and formats like MQA, as well as customer service) and am almost looking for reasons not to get a U1. My dealer has a customer feeding his MSB Select this way and said it was better than using the ethernet renderer with his server. I don’t know what server he was using though.

The server is “Light Harmonics”. No idea if any good. Servers are a whole new world for me.

Jeez - digital is a minefield! I had thought I had sorted it by outlaying almost US$30k for the MSB Premier! Maybe I should have stuck with Lumin and bought the new X1. One box. Easy! And much cheaper (but no doubt it will be very, very good).

[Kingsrule]

For Roon core, 200,000 + tracks, QNAP 871 i7 NAS:

I've used a W10 i7 machine, SGC SonicTransporter i7 and a Nucleus+ feeding a dCS Upsampler and a MSB SII

Nucleus+.. Sounded good but slow. Roon says it will continue to choke on larger libraries. Really over priced. Returned it.

SGC ST.. I had issues from day one. Couldn't get it to work in my system. I think their software implementation is buggy. Crappy case. Gone

W10 running Roon server. W10 stripped down but not running any optimizer software. Best of the 3 and the first core I had for Roon.

Looking at Pink Faun, SGM MkII and Marcin's upcoming Roon server. Pink Faun shows the insides which most others don't. I wonder why?? (wink, wink). That tells me something.

[Alpinist]

For Roon core, 200,000 + tracks, QNAP 871 i7 NAS:

I've used a W10 i7 machine, SGC SonicTransporter i7 and a Nucleus+ feeding a dCS Upsampler and a MSB SII

Nucleus+.. Sounded good but slow. Roon says it will continue to choke on larger libraries. Really over priced. Returned it.

SGC ST.. I had issues from day one. Couldn't get it to work in my system. I think their software implementation is buggy. Crappy case. Gone

W10 running Roon server. W10 stripped down but not running any optimizer software. Best of the 3 and the first core I had for Roon.

Looking at Pink Faun, SGM MkII and Marcin's upcoming Roon server. Pink Faun shows the insides which most others don't. I wonder why?? (wink, wink). That tells me something.

Did you try partitioning your files by genre when you had the Roon Nucleus Plus?

Ken

[AJR]

Yes. I’m sure Roon is finding alternatives like Quboz


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Reading the Roon forum, Roon’s response re Qobuz is that Roon is ready willing and able but Qobuz is holding out.

Hypothetically, let’s assume Tidal goes bust and Roon can’t do a deal with another decent high res streaming company. Will that mean (from a streaming perspective) that the Nucleus will be defunct?

[AJR]

For Roon core, 200,000 + tracks, QNAP 871 i7 NAS:

I've used a W10 i7 machine, SGC SonicTransporter i7 and a Nucleus+ feeding a dCS Upsampler and a MSB SII

Nucleus+.. Sounded good but slow. Roon says it will continue to choke on larger libraries. Really over priced. Returned it.

SGC ST.. I had issues from day one. Couldn't get it to work in my system. I think their software implementation is buggy. Crappy case. Gone

W10 running Roon server. W10 stripped down but not running any optimizer software. Best of the 3 and the first core I had for Roon.

Looking at Pink Faun, SGM MkII and Marcin's upcoming Roon server. Pink Faun shows the insides which most others don't. I wonder why?? (wink, wink). That tells me something.

SGM and Pink Faun look interesting. Do you know pricing?

[Kingsrule]

Ken

No Never heard of that. 12Tb of music files would be a bitch in any case and unless it was for sonics, I have little desire to mess with my files to make a device work....

[AJR]

A dumb question perhaps but is it clear that storing and playing back high rez files from a dedicated music server like the ones mentioned in this thread rather than a NAS (eg my Synology NAS) produces better sound quality? I hadn’t been thinking much about the music storage capability of the music servers until now - my focus has been on streaming flexibility and user interface.

[Kingsrule]

SGM and Pink Faun look interesting. Do you know pricing?

Price list on PF website, SGM MkII guessing $15k

[Mike Lavigne]

Isn't the SGM an optimized USB server? If so all observations regarding ethernet are probably compromised...

ask Ed or Emile about that and you will see that it can do both effectively. they are agnostic about the interface and do both. both Ethernet and USB have their issues.

I'm not techie enough to get deeper.

[Kingsrule]

A dumb question perhaps but is it clear that storing and playing back high rez files from a dedicated music server like the ones mentioned in this thread rather than a NAS (eg my Synology NAS) produces better sound quality? I hadn’t been thinking much about the music storage capability of the music servers until now - my focus has been on streaming flexibility and user interface.

Probably better but only using SSD. Standard HD too noisy so I think in that case NAS better. The main issue for me is size. I need at least 16Tb which isn't practical/available with SSD...

[Kingsrule]

ask Ed or Emile about that and you will see that it can do both effectively. they are agnostic about the interface and do both. both Ethernet and USB have their issues.

I'm not techie enough to get deeper.

I think they are now but when SGM was developed it was all USB.....

[Mike]

After a conversation with the folks and Roon, plus email, they have confirmed they do not “choke off” large libraries. If someone is experiencing this, then a check on the possible chokes in the network are required (hub, switch, router, NAS buffering, etc.)


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[Mike]

Tidal is essentially a start up. As a startup, they are intended to spend their money. Tidal is owned 1/3 by Sprint. Sprint is owned by SoftBank. SoftBank is the 92nd largest company in the world. They invested $150 million into Tidal. They didn’t do that to lose money.

If these claims of royalty payments were true, we would be hearing about lawsuits from artists.

I’m not worried.

https://www.forbes.com/companies/softbank/

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[nicoff]

so far on the MSB Select II the new MSB renderer (with SGM as Roon core) is neck and neck with my SGM server w/USB (using Curious USB cable---modest priced) when I go back and forth......maybe the very slightest nod to the renderer. if a different device were used as a Roon core, might that lower the Renderer level of performance? don't know that......yet. the SGM might take things to the highest possible level used as a Roon core, or with USB.

the SGM is due for a significant upgrade soon to 'MK II, 'Evo spec'. we will see what does to the equation.

Am I correct in thinking that you are running HQPlayer in your SGM computer and upconverting all your digital to DSD512?

[KeithR]

Tidal is essentially a start up. As a startup, they are intended to spend their money. Tidal is owned 1/3 by Sprint. Sprint is owned by SoftBank. SoftBank is the 92nd largest company in the world. They invested $150 million into Tidal. They didn’t do that to lose money.

If these claims of royalty payments were true, we would be hearing about lawsuits from artists.

And with a T-Mobile merger coming, Sprints last worry is Tidal anyways - they could very well let it go.

The bigger issue is Tidal being fully acquired and the hifi business model discontinued. Quite frankly, they don't have enough subs to compete as is but there probably is some franchise value in the war for content being waged.

My personal opinion is once we get to a recession (who knows when and I'm no doomsayer), a lot of these subscription services will fold or merge.

[KeithR]

"...Tidal has grown modestly, with sources telling Billboard that the service has approximately 1 million subscribers around the world (380,000 to 480,000 in the U.S.), of which 30,000 or so are signed up for its $19.99/month hi-fidelity audio tier."