MSB Select II

[Mike Lavigne]

Giorgio,

your rack and gear look great. I do have a suggestion. it has been my experience that allowing each Select II power supply a separate shelf seems to sound much better. it's about the two power supplies not interacting mechanically. and this separate shelf issue trumps the level of resonance isolation applied.

I know that the MSB design allows the stacking and it does look elegant. and possibly that is just my own experience.

it looks like you could reasonably add one more shelf unit to your stack to solve that issue.

when we go down the Select II pathway, we are already all in.

[GiorgioNuvolari]

Thank you, Mike L, for the suggestion!
I will most certainly try it out like that and report back with the outcome.
With the new speaker and streaming cables coming in, it is a great summer of listening to look forward to!
best, GN

[Kingsrule]

My Select II arrived a few weeks ago

At the 400 hour mark it was like WTF just happened? Just amazing sound.

A bit up a down getting to the 400 hour plateau, u have to be patient......

Break in update:

Things changed again, very much for the best, around the 1200 hour mark.
Most noticeable was the bass. Deeper, firmer and more defined. Also, the top end has gotten much more delicate. Trumpet and sax, WOW!
Man, the Select II is a great piece. I haven't enjoyed my music this much in years.

[SuperDave]

Break in update:

Things changed again, very much for the best, around the 1200 hour mark.
Most noticeable was the bass. Deeper, firmer and more defined. Also, the top end has gotten much more delicate. Trumpet and sax, WOW!
Man, the Select II is a great piece. I haven't enjoyed my music this much in years.

Kingsrule,
what source are you using?

Dave

[Ritmo]

Outstanding! You have a superb DAC, enjoy!

[Kingsrule]

Roon via the MSB renderer

Select II as the preamp

[Kingrex]

I wish I could play in all your guys park. I bought the Mojo Audio DAC and it stomps all the other DAC I have had prior. I can relate to the not seeking analog as the digital is very satisfying now. I can only dream what it would be like with the full Select II setup you are running. Keel the updates coming. I like reading them. Some comparison to what you were using would be nice. Thanks.

[Alpinist]

Roon via the MSB renderer

Select II as the preamp

Exact same as me.

Your amps and speakers?

Ken

[Kingsrule]

Magico M6
Nagra HD Amps

[Alpinist]

Magico M6
Nagra HD Amps

That’s a world class system you have there. Congratulations! How are you liking your Magico M6’s compared to the M-Project’s you replaced? How’s the Nagra HD amps’ synergy with the Select II DAC and M6’s? I heard the Nagra HD system at RMAF and was extremely impressed with it.

Ken

[AJR]

I am calling BS on this. If you had the M6s you would have posted comments on the M6 threads - or, if I am wrong and you do have them, then you are not a team player.

[Mike]

I am calling BS on this. If you had the M6s you would have posted comments on the M6 threads - or, if I am wrong and you do have them, then you are not a team player.

He’s telling the truth. I think you’re just kidding anyway.


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[AJR]

Thanks for the save (!). Big blushes and an apology to Kingsrule. Humble pie well eaten.

[harri]

Just got Renderer -V2 for Select II today to replace MQA-quadrate-USB for Tidal. I was totally blown away. It is that good.

[joeinid]

Just got Renderer -V2 for Select II today to replace MQA-quadrate-USB for Tidal. I was totally blown away. It is that good.

That’s awesome, glad the upgrade is sounding so good.

[UltraFast69]

Just got Renderer -V2 for Select II today to replace MQA-quadrate-USB for Tidal. I was totally blown away. It is that good.

Hello - Curious on what are you using into the Renderer?

I am either beginning to confuse myself or starting to understand more about the benefits of MSB.

[Mike]

Hello - Curious on what are you using into the Renderer?

I am either beginning to confuse myself or starting to understand more about the benefits of MSB.

Just an ethernet cable, preferably a high quality one like the AQ Diamond. The Roon Renderer is essentially a module sized Linux computer which then connects directly inside the DAC.

[Adyc]

Select DAC owners please give your experience how good the built preamp is. Can it really replace top class preamp?

[Cincy2]

Select DAC owners please give your experience how good the built preamp is. Can it really replace top class preamp?

Over the years I've had several excellent pre-amps in my systems made by Krell and Mark Levinson. They gave the sound a rich, full bodied density that was very pleasing. When I transitioned to a dCS stack, I lost the pre-amp and went direct to the mono blocks. The sound was excellent but I didn't realize what I had lost until I auditioned the Select II. That richness returned in a way I wouldn't have thought possible. Dynamics on percussion instruments were instant and convincing. I see no reason to every use a pre-amp again.

Eric

[Adyc]

Over the years I've had several excellent pre-amps in my systems made by Krell and Mark Levinson. They gave the sound a rich, full bodied density that was very pleasing. When I transitioned to a dCS stack, I lost the pre-amp and went direct to the mono blocks. The sound was excellent but I didn't realize what I had lost until I auditioned the Select II. That richness returned in a way I wouldn't have thought possible. Dynamics on percussion instruments were instant and convincing. I see no reason to every use a pre-amp again.

Eric

Thanks. dCS preamp is pretty bad. I don’t think a lot of people are using their built in preamp. But I do see a lot of Select owners don’t use any preamps.

[Alpinist]

Select DAC owners please give your experience how good the built preamp is. Can it really replace top class preamp?

The Select II DAC’s built in preamp is significantly better than the ARC Ref 10 preamp I owned. And the Ref 10 is a terrific sounding preamp.

Ken

[Kingsrule]

Thanks. dCS preamp is pretty bad. I don’t think a lot of people are using their built in preamp. But I do see a lot of Select owners don’t use any preamps.

dCS everything is pretty bad. It is the most overrated product line in digital audio.

How it still gets any interest is baffling.....still riding on the 4 box $100k price that shocked when it came out.

I guess many (including me) can be fooled........

[still-one]

Horsepucky

The comparable MSB Select II lists for about $147k or 50% more. Yes the Select II is really excellent but since I am not willing to pay $150k for any product as a source. I haven't brought the Select II in to demo as my dealers know I won't ask to audition any product I have no intention of purchasing. I did bring I the Reference set-up to A/B against my 3 piece stack and it offered ia sound that was just different not better. Like any audio component there will be those who prefer one over the other. The Reference and dCS DAC/Clock/Upsampler are both in the high $60's.

If you think the Vivaldi is the same unit that was released in 2012 then you haven't been paying attention to the mostly "free" updates. (The Upsampler board was a charge)

[Mike]

Horsepucky

The comparable MSB Select II lists for about $147k or 50% more. Yes the Select II is really excellent but since I am not willing to pay $150k for any product as a source. I haven't brought the Select II in to demo as my dealers know I won't ask to audition any product I have no intention of purchasing. I did bring I the Reference set-up to A/B against my 3 piece stack and it offered ia sound that was just different not better. Like any audio component there will be those who prefer one over the other. The Reference and dCS DAC/Clock/Upsampler are both in the high $60's.

If you think the Vivaldi is the same unit that was released in 2012 then you haven't been paying attention to the mostly "free" updates. (The Upsampler board was a charge)

For the record, I think a fully pimped out Select II is closer to $115k.

http://www.msbtechnology.com/dacs/select-pricing/

As a side, I have another Vivaldi 2.0 stack coming in on trade if someone is interested in a smoking deal.


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[still-one]

For the record, I think a fully pimped out Select II is closer to $115k.

http://www.msbtechnology.com/dacs/select-pricing/

As a side, I have another Vivaldi 2.0 stack coming in on trade if someone is interested in a smoking deal.




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Mike
He alluded to dCS at ~$100 which means he included the ~$35k transport.

Form the MSB site:
Select II DAC. $84.5
Dual Mono Power $19.5
Femto 33 $9.5
MQA Module $1.6
Renderer $2.0
Transport $24.5
Transport Power Base $16.5. (not sure if you can plug this into one of the Dual Mono's)

That is somewhere between $140K and $155k.

Not including additional inputs/outputs, etc.

Anyone who is playing in that sandbox should look at the Select II.

[Mike]

Mike
He alluded to dCS at ~$100 which means he included the ~$35k transport.

Form the MSB site:
Select II DAC. $84.5
Dual Mono Power $19.5
Femto 33 $9.5
MQA Module $1.6
Renderer $2.0
Transport $24.5
Transport Power Base $16.5. (not sure if you can plug this into one of the Dual Mono's)

That is somewhere between $140K and $155k.

Oh yes, including the transport for sure.


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[Kingsrule]

Mike
He alluded to dCS at ~$100 which means he included the ~$35k transport.

Form the MSB site:
Select II DAC. $84.5
Dual Mono Power $19.5
Femto 33 $9.5
MQA Module $1.6
Renderer $2.0
Transport $24.5
Transport Power Base $16.5. (not sure if you can plug this into one of the Dual Mono's)

That is somewhere between $140K and $155k.

Not including additional inputs/outputs, etc.

Anyone who is playing in that sandbox should look at the Select II.

Bogus Jim. U have to add another $20k in cables to hook all the dCS boxes up
And I never compared any pricing....just said everyone was enamored with a $100k stack.....
Money has nothing to do with sonics if u want to compare dCS vs. MSB
Please. The dCS sandbox isn't in the same world as MSB...

But if u insist ...the MSB Premier Dac is close to the Vivaldi and the Reference destroys it....
The Select II is in a realm u will never understand.
All u see is the stack of dCS boxes in your system....

[still-one]

Bogus Jim. U have to add another $20k in cables to hook all the dCS boxes up
And I never compared any pricing....just said everyone was enamored with a $100k stack.....
Money has nothing to do with sonics if u want to compare dCS vs. MSB
Please. The dCS sandbox isn't in the same world as MSB...

But if u insist ...the MSB Premier Dac is close to the Vivaldi and the Reference destroys it....
The Select II is in a realm u will never understand.
All u see is the stack of dCS boxes in your system....

What do you think I haven't heard the Select II? I have listened at three locations including my local dealer and MIke's store last year. Mike's set-up was "excellent" and the Select was the best sounding of the digital gear we listened to. That said when I returned home I never felt I was missing something. (other than the ability to get speakers as far into the room as he can)

During a A/B in my system the Reference you think so highly of sounded good but hardly spectacular and didn't to make me consider moving from the dCS stack. The dealer is getting another renderer module and wants try and compare them again. I tried it direct and thru my Dag pre-amp. I felt it sounded much better via the pre-amp.

Maybe in your world money is not a consideration. In mine the Select II, the Relentless and Magnum Opus are not a smart option.

You really lose al credibility when you state component A destroys component B. That just doesn't happen in the real world. It is a figment of your imagination.

[Alpinist]

Hi Jim,

I’m not looking to get in the middle of this but I think even the base Select II DAC would make you extremely happy. It’s better than a loaded Reference due to double the number of DAC modules. Also, no need for a transport once you’ve listened to the Renderer input module.

Best,
Ken

[Kingsrule]

Last time:

Just because the Vivaldi is the top dCS product and Select II is the top MSB product DOES NOT IN ANY WAY mean the two are comparable.
Why can't u understand that....Is it that hard?

You always defend and say what u already own is better. You did that for years with your Meridian 808 when it was way long in the tooth. Same with the rest of your gear. Now u are doing that with your dCS.

And why are u bringing money into this conservation? I never did...

Mostly you are right about A destroying B but in the case of dCS vs. MSB, it's no contest. In your terminology, dCS is not a smart option....

Also, I'm very confident in my credibility. U have the imagination problem....

[Al M.]

The comparable MSB Select II lists for about $147k or 50% more. Yes the Select II is really excellent but since I am not willing to pay $150k for any product as a source. I haven't brought the Select II in to demo as my dealers know I won't ask to audition any product I have no intention of purchasing. I did bring I the Reference set-up to A/B against my 3 piece stack and it offered ia sound that was just different not better. Like any audio component there will be those who prefer one over the other. The Reference and dCS DAC/Clock/Upsampler are both in the high $60's.

May I ask in which way you found the MSB Reference different? Thanks.

[Kingrex]

Just get the best Schiit DAC and it crushes all others. Everyone knows that.

[Al M.]

Just get the best Schiit DAC and it crushes all others. Everyone knows that.

Not really. I have the Schiit Yggdrasil DAC, and it is an extraordinary DAC with a natural sound and enormous resolution -- both timbral micro-detail and separation of instruments -- that you can hear if your system and acoustics allow (my new ceiling diffusers have unlocked even more of the Yggdrasil's uncanny prowess in that respect). Yet I cannot imagine that it is the end all be all. I would be extremely surprised if a top MSB DAC would not beat it.

Having said that, a friend and I compared the Yggdrasil multiple times in his system with dCS Vivaldi and Upsampler (no Vivaldi clock) and consistently preferred the Yggdrasil to the Vivaldi combo ($ 2,300 vs $ 55,000 MSRP w/o cables). My friend ended up selling the Vivaldi in favor of the Yggdrasil.

[still-one]

Last time:

Just because the Vivaldi is the top dCS product and Select II is the top MSB product DOES NOT IN ANY WAY mean the two are comparable.
Why can't u understand that....Is it that hard?

You always defend and say what u already own is better. You did that for years with your Meridian 808 when it was way long in the tooth. Same with the rest of your gear. Now u are doing that with your dCS.

And why are u bringing money into this conservation? I never did...

Mostly you are right about A destroying B but in the case of dCS vs. MSB, it's no contest. In your terminology, dCS is not a smart option....

Also, I'm very confident in my credibility. U have the imagination problem....

You are so far out of touch it is unbelievable. You just assume that the Meridian was long in tooth but forget that it went from v3 to v4 v5 and v6. Get it through your head I don’t purchase anything that doesn’t get A/B’d in my system. I actually had the Rossini, meridian and MSB DAC IV or V(?) to compare at one time. The MSB was great on standard CD, the upsampling was what put the Rossini ahead and the Meridian lack of DXD capabilies started to show. Unti The changes in the Vivaldi to v2 were enough in my book to bring it in for a listen and when they indicated that MQA was imminent I liked the additional filter and mapping options it offered.

It’s funny I am not the one trashing other products here or on the other sites. People buy products for a variety of reasons. You seem to think there is actually a “best” for everyone. There are many dealers where the owners can’t even agree which of their products is best in any category. But then you do.

[KeithR]

The Reference and dCS DAC/Clock/Upsampler are both in the high $60's.

'm not going to step into the dCS vs MSB sonic fight (I am biased and obviously prefer one to the other)

But Jim, the pricing is misleading - the Ref Dac is $41.5k with a single, *massive* powerbase and renderer. If you add the passive preamp, it costs more but then you sell your preamp to do so. The separate mono power supplies and clock are optional and upgradeable over time. The clock doesn't require a new box, either.

If you fully trick out a Reference dac, better off buying a bone stock Select2 from most reports.

[Kingrex]

How do you play your records or tape if you sell your preamp. Is the select an analog preamp also. Is it a digital preamp ? Digital pre would be a non starter for analog enthusiast.

[Mike]

How do you play your records or tape if you sell your preamp. Is the select an analog preamp also. Is it a digital preamp ? Digital pre would be a non starter for analog enthusiast.

It has analog inputs and it is not a digital preamp.


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[Alpinist]

How do you play your records or tape if you sell your preamp. Is the select an analog preamp also. Is it a digital preamp ? Digital pre would be a non starter for analog enthusiast.

With the high-output power provided by the Hybrid DAC modules, the need for amplification is eliminated. The signal is attenuated with new technology that provides a constant low impedance output without any active circuitry (no transistors, buffers or op-amps). This allows the Select or Reference DAC’s remarkable audio quality to be truly independent of volume setting. It’s a remarkable feat of electrical design that sets a new benchmark in the industry. The output modules are individually tuned for maximum quality balance or single-ended audio.

With sideways expansion, the preamp has the ability for additional analog inputs, isolated sub outputs, and extra analog outputs.

[Kingrex]

So the Ref or Select are full on preamps. I could run my tape deck and TT pre right into it. It won't do any analog to digital conversion. Do either by any chance have a phone pre module.

[Mike]

So the Ref or Select are full on preamps. I could run my tape deck and TT pre right into it. It won't do any analog to digital conversion. Do either by any chance have a phone pre module.

No digital conversion.

Run your Phono pre into the inputs.


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[Thieliste]

Mike did you try your Select ll direct into Mephisto stereo ? if so how is that combo ?

[Mike]

Mike did you try your Select ll direct into Mephisto stereo ? if so how is that combo ?

Yes, many times. Awesome!


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[UltraFast69]

So the Ref or Select are full on preamps. I could run my tape deck and TT pre right into it. It won't do any analog to digital conversion. Do either by any chance have a phone pre module.

With the optional PreAmp module, thinking somewhere around $8K - it’s listed on their site for certainty.


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[Thieliste]

Do you guys who are using your Select ll DAC direct into an amp with only the renderer for streaming don't miss the qualities of top notch separate preamp and streamer ?

[Alpinist]

Do you guys who are using your Select ll DAC direct into an amp with only the renderer for streaming don't miss the qualities of top notch separate preamp and streamer ?

I own the Select II DAC with Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus, and I absolutely do not miss having a preamp or a streamer. I had owned the ARC REF10 Preamp, which was a tremendous sounding component, but didn’t sound nearly as pure as running directly from the Select II’s preamp module to my mono amps.

I have also found the Roon Nucleus Plus, used in conjunction with the Renderer V2 Module, to be the nearly ideal solution in terms of sound quality and functionality. Over two years of operation with zero glitches. I love the Roon interface’s intuitiveness and ease of operation and have no desire to try anything else.

Some have moved to the Pro USB Module, mainly because they are utilizing the Taiko SGM Extreme or Aurender W20SE as a server, and USB is their best connection. While the Pro USB Module has more ease due to the removal of line noise through its optical Pro ISL connection, I still prefer the level of detail and amount of bass I receive through the Renderer V2 Module. In addition, as I am one that has the habit of constantly riding the volume control, I prefer the Renderer V2 Module because I can adjust the Select II’s analog volume through the Roon interface on my IPad, whereas this function does not work on the Pro USB Module, so you have to use the Select II’s remote control.

Best,
Ken

[Kingsrule]

Ken, I didn't know you actually tried the PRO USB Module.

I have both the V2 Renderer and PRO USB Module for use on the S II Dac.

The PRO USB Module is far superior sonically. Clearer, more detail, subterranean bass, quieter, better dimension and layering. Not to mention it plays all resolutions....

I thought I'd miss the volume control function of the V2, but quickly didn't care as the sonic improvement of the PRO USB is overwhelming

[GiorgioNuvolari]

For what it is worth, I have both the Renderer and ProISL input modules in Select II, being fed from a Nucleus+, playing through a Naim Statement, so with a preamp.
I have not been able to come up with a definitive view on which input is better. It seems to me that there is a difference, and a repeatable one, depending on the source material, which for me are various locally stored CD recordings and Tidal streaming across all quality levels.
Best, GN

[Alpinist]

Ken, I didn't know you actually tried the PRO USB Module.

I have both the V2 Renderer and PRO USB Module for use on the S II Dac.

The PRO USB Module is far superior sonically. Clearer, more detail, subterranean bass, quieter, better dimension and layering. Not to mention it plays all resolutions....

I thought I'd miss the volume control function of the V2, but quickly didn't care as the sonic improvement of the PRO USB is overwhelming

Hi King,

I listened to the Pro USB since the last time we talked. To my ears, the Pro USB is smoother and the Renderer V2 is more detailed. It’s hard to do a good A/B comparison because most servers sound better through one connection or another.

Ken

[Elberoth]

A question to MSB owners. How do you like the DSD performance compared to redbook ?

I have the Select at home right now. With all my lampi DACs, I much prefere the DSD. There is substantial difference when going from Red Book to DSD editions, as expected.

With the Select .... hmm, I'm not sure. I think I actually prefer the PCM - at least after just two days of listening.

[Mike]

A question to MSB owners. How do you like the DSD performance compared to redbook ?

I have the Select at home right now. With all my lampi DACs, I much prefere the DSD. There is substantial difference when going from Red Book to DSD editions, as expected.

With the Select .... hmm, I'm not sure. I think I actually prefer the PCM - at least after just two days of listening.

Are you running DSD mode in Native or Enhanced? It makes a difference.


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