Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

[Nikhil]

The only time I ever hrad of ethernet cables being used for analog is with DIY projects where folks use ethernet for speaker or interconnect cables.

Down at the wire you still have voltages being used to construct and transmit signals.
A "1" is a high voltage and a "0" is a low(er) voltage etc.

"Digital" in essence is a method of handling those signals.

[nicoludio]

This may have been posted before - digital is not simply 1s & 0s:

https://www.audiostream.com/content/draft

[Mikado463]

If I had, would you be convinced?


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sure, at least your personal 'bias' would not have entered into the mix.

[blueoak]

I use the $2,200 Diamond Ethernet cable from AudioQuest for my color printer. The pictures are more 3D, colorful, and overall lifelike. It simply isn't 1s and 0s, because the signal is transmitted in analog. My ears are getting old, but my eyesight is very good. I can easily compare printouts from my cheap $5 Chinese Ethernet cable and my $2,200 Diamond Ethernet cable from AudioQuest. I also noticed that the AudioQuest Diamond Ethernet cable makes Facebook more natural to use and I get more likes on my pictures.

Thanks

[Kuoppis]

I use the $2,200 Diamond Ethernet cable from AudioQuest for my color printer. The pictures are more 3D, colorful, and overall lifelike. It simply isn't 1s and 0s, because the signal is transmitted in analog. My ears are getting old, but my eyesight is very good. I can easily compare printouts from my cheap $5 Chinese Ethernet cable and my $2,200 Diamond Ethernet cable from AudioQuest. I also noticed that the AudioQuest Diamond Ethernet cable makes Facebook more natural to use and I get more likes on my pictures.

Thanks

Are you serious? This is really interesting, never would have thought there would be such an impact.

That leads us back to the assumption that you get less artifacts/ transmission errors with a high quality cable. For me personally this was the best/ most valuable posting in this thread, somewhat an eye-opener or proof from another field of science.

Thanks for sharing.


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[blueoak]

Are you serious? This is really interesting, never would have thought there would be such an impact.

That leads us back to the assumption that you get less artifacts/ transmission errors with a high quality cable. For me personally this was the best/ most valuable posting in this thread, somewhat an eye-opener or proof from another field of science.

Thanks for sharing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Absolutely. I can also verify it with an Internet speed test with http://www.speedtest.net

[Kuoppis]

Absolutely. I can also verify it with an Internet speed test with http://www.speedtest.net

That’s cool, thank you for the Sunday morning eye-opener .

That task is typically reserved for my cuppa java, but I don’t complain.


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[blueoak]

That’s cool, thank you for the Sunday morning eye-opener .

That task is typically reserved for my cuppa java, but I don’t complain.


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It was an eye-opener for me as well. As soon as I seen my printer was producing better color and more 3D feel, I knew that cables mattered. I now upgrade all my speaker cables, interconnects, USB, and everything else to AudioQuest WEL Signature/Diamond level. I am proud that the cables in my system represent about 70% of the cost of the system. There are no other components which have been able to easily produce better upgrades than the cables. Once I seen the AudioQuest Diamond Ethernet produce better results on my printer and Facebook, I knew that I had to apply the best cables throughout my entire system.

[octadyndude]

The great part about cables is that if you really love the sound of your system cables can really improve what you already have.

[nicoff]

Do ethernet cables make a difference? I found this reply on another forum and thought that I would share here. (This response was written by the COO of Roon in response to that same question raised by Roon users).

Quote:

...When a digital audio stream is altered it can happen a few ways:

1. bits are changed and/or lost and caught by error correction techniques causing a retransmit
2. bits are changed and/or lost and not caught by error correction techniques so they are allowed to be played

In the case of #1, if the errors are caught, a retransmit can be requested and if the retransmitted data arrives fast enough that the buffer is not emptied, then the resultant stream is still perfect with no error.

Checksums and sequences numbers can prevent #2 easily, but #1’s retransmits can still take too long to arrive. This can result in a buffer emptying. If the buffer is emptied, you will hear a loop of the buffer or zeros or something else bogus. The sound wave has been damaged; the DAC will not find a continuous audio wave, and will output very unexpected results.

This usually can be heard as a large click or pop, or as silence. A non-networked example of this that we have all heard is a CD that skips. That just means it couldn’t read the data off the CD (and it can verify that the data is valid using the same techniques listed above) before the buffer ran out. There is no “quality loss” when a CD skips… it’s just an “obvious error”. It’s not like the sound got muddy or lost fidelity in some way, it just went to sh*t.

The worst of the worst ethernet cable would result in the bits being damaged/lost – a good protocol can catch #2, so #1 is the case to worry about. That case would result in retransmits, which if the cable was bad enough, wouldnt arrive in time in a verifiable manner, meaning you would hear “obvious errors”, and not fidelity loss.

The reality of these retransmits is that they happen fast and buffers are relatively long, so even if your network is shit, things probably just work fine. The digital stream can not be altered along the way. That’s the point of making it digital.

Note that ALL of the above is purely in the digital part of this signal path, and claims about a bad cable, noise, ground loops can not affect it, because digital is built on mathematics, and not the realities of electricity. Either it arrives there good and verifiable, or it does not. This binary good or bad nature of a “reliable digital stream” is what drives the “bits are bits” guys nuts when audio guys talk about digital streams being affected by anything.

The claims about noise, ground loops, or whatever else is purely in how that digital stream is interpreted into analog, which is not a digital process. That stuff can not be verified – thus all the trouble. This is what drives the audio guys nuts when the “bits are bits” guys tell them they are old and not versed in information theory.

[EmiLiuZ]

@Octadyndude

Hi George That's really what cables is all about. It's not to change the way the system sounds but enhancing the system to new heights!

[jinjuku]

Ethernet cables carry an analog signal that represents a digital signal. The receiver converts the analog to digital. Since the signal is analog, jitter can be introduced, which can degrade the audio.

Should I remind you of the thread at WBF where you where insisting that jitter on the wire could be stored with the file on an HDD? You were properly educated in that thread but here you are again with the same non-sense.


Ethernet is FIFO buffered. This means as the data is transmitted from one system (Ethernet) to another (PCIe) to another (RAM) to another (L3/L2 Cache) to another (RAM set aside by the OS again) to another (USB Buffer) to another (DAC Buffer).


1. That this information has been copied multiple times
2. That to effectively deal with clock domain boundaries that FIFO buffers are used so that data can be read into buffer and read out of buffer without worry of data loss.


Two really good papers:


T.I.Reducing radiated emissions of 10/100 lan cabling


Siemons The Antenna Myth


Search YT for a Clock Domain Boundaries


Then there is my still standing offer:


My $2000 to anyones $500 plus travel expenses paid by loser. I'll supply a client/server computer. JRiver and your tracks. End users stack from the USB cable on back. Two rounds of 10 A/B blinded. Get 18 out of 20 and you'll be $2000 better off for ~30 minutes worth of effort.


Cookie included.

Sorry, bits are indeed bits.

[jinjuku]

If any people here use Tidal (direct you can't do this through Roon):

On you computer start playing a track. Wait 10 seconds and remove your Ethernet cable. Share what happens.

[joeinid]

Welcome to the forum, thank you for joining.

[jinjuku]

Thanks for the welcome. I'm hoping people will read the T.I. and Siemons paper and watch a YT video or 2 on Clock Domain Boundaries, FIFO buffers, and why the Jitter argument WRT Ethernet is a total red herring and can absolutely not effect DAC output on a competently designed system.

In another test I took a Cisco SG200-8 L3 managed switch with ports 7/8 in a LACP Dynamic LAG. I installed a 2 port Intel Server NIC and configured for LACP Passive.

I fed a Cary Audio DMS 500 with this and played back 24/192 tracks over SMB share. During playback I was able to swap the cables. No one could ever tell me when the cable was swapped or how many changes were made.

The cables?

$700 Nordost Heimdall II 3 foot RJE

$90 Hypertek CAT5e 315 foot RJE

[jinjuku]

Bud Don't you mean ethernet carries a digital signal that represents an analog signal. The DAC converts the digital to analog. Jitter can be introduced at the digital side which can affect the audio.

Ethernet is based on a 25MHz clock multipied out. That clock is an analog signal that is going to be some sort of PAM 16 (there are others).

Here's the other part: Ethernet is asynch and there is no audio timing whatsoever. As you increase speeds the quicker a buffer fills.

That means the more time that various power sections can actually be powered down by the OS when the Ethernet PHY isn't in use.

What's really cool? 10GBe can go over 145 feet of 15 year old CAT5e. Yep 1250MB a second. You could literally transfer 120 CDs in 60 seconds over $0.25 cabling you had installed in 2002.

[still-one]

Let's say I accept the position of several individuals here that upgraded ethernet cables can make a difference. In my set-up I guess I could install one between my router and my sonicTransporter. The problem is my Rossini is at the end of about a 40' run of ethernet cable and I am not paying Big $$$$ for a special cable. One option would be to disconnect that long ethernet run from my router to the Rossini and install a Ethernet Switch. The long run would terminate at the switch and I could install one of these high quality cables using a short run from between the switch and Rossini.

The question for believers is 1) might that help? 2) would the addition of a switch negate and benefits?

[blueoak]

Thanks for the welcome. I'm hoping people will read the T.I. and Siemons paper and watch a YT video or 2 on Clock Domain Boundaries, FIFO buffers, and why the Jitter argument WRT Ethernet is a total red herring and can absolutely not effect DAC output on a competently designed system.

In another test I took a Cisco SG200-8 L3 managed switch with ports 7/8 in a LACP Dynamic LAG. I installed a 2 port Intel Server NIC and configured for LACP Passive.

I fed a Cary Audio DMS 500 with this and played back 24/192 tracks over SMB share. During playback I was able to swap the cables. No one could ever tell me when the cable was swapped or how many changes were made.

The cables?

$700 Nordost Heimdall II 3 foot RJE

$90 Hypertek CAT5e 315 foot RJE

Obviously they do not have the golden ear that experienced audiophiles such as us have. We've been in the hobby for 30+ years and understand how to listen for clarity and subtleties in music. Such a novice needs many years of experience to understand and apply their knowledge.

The better test is to use the more expensive cables - especially platinum CAT8E - and use another method of testing: printing color images and posting on Facebook. All of my color prints using premium cable are more 3D and vibrant color; this is very easy to see. In terms of Facebook, when I post content it becomes jitter free and is able to be posted on Facebook faster with a cleaner signal. The obvious effect is that I always receive more likes on content posted with my premium cable vs. standard CAT5E.

The premium platinum CAT7E allows DACs to use higher clock speed and pass more bits, and do so without jitter and delay. What you hear is more detail, no artifacts, and a full encompassing soundstage.

[Kingsrule]

Let's say I accept the position of several individuals here that upgraded ethernet cables can make a difference. In my set-up I guess I could install one between my router and my sonicTransporter. The problem is my Rossini is at the end of about a 40' run of ethernet cable and I am not paying Big $$$$ for a special cable. One option would be to disconnect that long ethernet run from my router to the Rossini and install a Ethernet Switch. The long run would terminate at the switch and I could install one of these high quality cables using a short run from between the switch and Rossini.

The question for believers is 1) might that help? 2) would the addition of a switch negate and benefits?

Replace the 40' run with fiber. The best $100 u will ever spend on audio. I think u will be very thankful for the suggestion....

[jinjuku]

Replace the 40' run with fiber. The best $100 u will ever spend on audio. I think u will be very thankful for the suggestion....

WiFi is easier with all the benefits.

[Rayooo]

WiFi is easier with all the benefits.

Yea but WiFi causes a narrow soundstage.

[EmiLiuZ]

WiFi is easier with all the benefits.

Er

Sendt fra min SM-G930F med Tapatalk

[Phishphan]

Wifi doesn’t sound as good. I’ll agree with that. But a quality constructed Ethernet cable doesn’t need to cost a lot. Spending over 10 bucks is a waste.


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[jinjuku]

Er

Sendt fra min SM-G930F med Tapatalk

No Er about it.

How about this: On your stack I'll spin up Tidal or JRiver. Start playback over Wifi and I'll randomly turn on Airplane mode. You let me know when the Wifi is on or off ;-)

[jinjuku]

Wifi doesn’t sound as good. I’ll agree with that. But a quality constructed Ethernet cable doesn’t need to cost a lot. Spending over 10 bucks is a waste.

I've got $2000 to your $500 that says you can't do it blinded.

Heck I'll go $5000 to your $1000 on your stack USB on back. I'll set it up that we can do both WiFi and Wired. JRiver and 24/192 content.

Audio is played back out of buffer.

This is a massive failure to understand how packet data works.

[jinjuku]

Someone please explain that if playback over WiFi is started, and then airplane mode is enabled, and the music still plays:

1. Is it magic?
2. Where's the music at?
3. Did the sound get worse
4. Did the sound get better
5. Did the sound stay the same

[Kingsrule]

WiFi not reliable

[jinjuku]

WiFi not reliable

I have a 240GB wireshark capture of WiFi playback with 0 error's if you would like to download it.

[Phishphan]

I take Wifi and Ethernet out of the chain during playback. My Aurender N10 has two 4TB hard drives.


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[jinjuku]

It's a simple question:

If I start playback over WiFi or Wired and I break the connection and music continues to play back (Tidal does this folks):

1. Is it magic?
2. Where's the music at?
3. Did the sound get better?
4. Did the sound get worse?
5. Did the sound stay the same?

Why can't anyone answer such basic questions?

I'll add another: Where's the jitter?

[still-one]

Replace the 40' run with fiber. The best $100 u will ever spend on audio. I think u will be very thankful for the suggestion....

So you are suggesting I purchase fibre optic cable and purchase two converters, one for ethernet to fibre optic and a second for fibre optic to ethernet?

[Phishphan]

So you are suggesting I purchase fibre optic cable and purchase two converters, one for ethernet to fibre optic and a second for fibre optic to ethernet?

Or hire The Rolling Stones to play in your living room. That sounds easier.


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[Rayooo]

So you are suggesting I purchase fibre optic cable and purchase two converters, one for ethernet to fibre optic and a second for fibre optic to ethernet?

make sure you buy quality GBIC's and Switches..if they are not "Audiophile Approved" you'll be sorry.

[kzhtoo]

Why can't anyone answer such basic questions?

Maybe no one thinks it's worth answering?

[Arnoldhasmail]

Well, if the music keeps playing...the track has been downloaded to your system prior to disconnecting...whether to ram or drive I don’t know.

This is one of those conversations I usually avoid...doesn't really matter what anyone thinks...you need to listen and test for yourself. I find that turning off WiFi on my Mac mini always sounds better. I always leave it off. Anyone noticed turning off your WiFi router in the house makes the system sound better as well? I have. I believe there is some interference or something degrading sound. Noise seems to find it’s way in in many forms...cable boxes, cell phones, LED/fluorescent light bulbs...

[Arnoldhasmail]

So you are suggesting I purchase fibre optic cable and purchase two converters, one for ethernet to fibre optic and a second for fibre optic to ethernet?

No, that’s a lot of processing

[jinjuku]

Maybe no one thinks it's worth answering?

Or they can't answer it and not undermine their stance. It certainly sinks the 'Jitter' portion of the debate.

I was out at a believers setup in Denver. I brought a 100 foot CAT6 and their 15 foot custom cryo treated with Belden Industrial RJE's.

He heard all sorts of difference when sighted. When we blinded it with his setup using his Tidal account he did no better than 60%.

[blueoak]

Well, if the music keeps playing...the track has been downloaded to your system prior to disconnecting...whether to ram or drive I don’t know.

This is one of those conversations I usually avoid...doesn't really matter what anyone thinks...you need to listen and test for yourself. I find that turning off WiFi on my Mac mini always sounds better. I always leave it off. Anyone noticed turning off your WiFi router in the house makes the system sound better as well? I have. I believe there is some interference or something degrading sound. Noise seems to find it’s way in in many forms...cable boxes, cell phones, LED/fluorescent light bulbs...

I always turn off WiFi. I discovered that there are health benefits as well. I had less headaches and I showed dewer signs of aging such as crow’s feet.

One of my next projects is to construct a Faraday cage to block other harmful frequencies.

[Arnoldhasmail]

“One of my next projects is to construct a Faraday cage to block other harmful frequencies”

Haaaaaaaaa...I’m sure your stereo would sound better...

like i said. I hate these conversations...everyone needs to listen and decide for themselves. I’ve tried dozens of tweaks...some help some don't.

[jinjuku]

Paint your own Faraday cage. Just need a cardboard box and ground strap.

https://www.amazon.com/MG-Chemicals-...R7PTY20G40G0NC

[Arnoldhasmail]

WOREMOR RF-IE50 EMR & RF Shielding Paint Protecting From HF, RF/RFID Bluetooth, Cell Towers EMI 5 Liter - EMR-WM-RFIE50 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B073C4F2NY..._oNjqAbYSHAN0C

i could paint the entire house!!! Haaaaaaaaaaa. Try explaining that to the wife!

[Jack]

And the same guys go from forum to forum with the same tired arguments looking for someone to agree with them. We've got one who does the same thing with everything that costs more than BJC is a rip-off. If you don't acknowledge them they eventually go away.

[jinjuku]

I find that turning off WiFi on my Mac mini always sounds better. I always leave it off. Anyone noticed turning off your WiFi router in the house makes the system sound better as well?

I setup a switch with vlan 10 and 20 (wired and wifi). Dual homed a server and setup 192.168.10.X/24 and 192.168.20.X/24.

Created a 10 and 20 named SMB share and mapped drive letter Y/Z. Using 24/192 native tracks with Foobar ABX comparater no one could tell a difference even when I killed the WiFi (20 second buffer).

[jinjuku]

And the same guys go from forum to forum with the same tired arguments looking for someone to agree with them. We've got one who does the same thing with everything that costs more than BJC is a rip-off. If you don't acknowledge them they eventually go away.

I'm trying to make $$ with it. Only done it once so far. I like the people that agree to it initially and then start changing the dates they can do it multiple time and then not doing it at all. Nothing like all talk no walk.

[jinjuku]

Here is a good thread on Jitter and static storage. Regardless of the style of static storage (volatile or non-volatile).

[Kingsrule]

So you are suggesting I purchase fibre optic cable and purchase two converters, one for ethernet to fibre optic and a second for fibre optic to ethernet?

yes. i have 3 of these in my system, one for nas to switch, one for switch to roon core and one from switch to dcs upsampler
also i use the sfp ports on my switch to plug the converters into it So only one converter per run

i also use ifi wall warts to power the converters

[wklie]

So you are suggesting I purchase fibre optic cable and purchase two converters, one for ethernet to fibre optic and a second for fibre optic to ethernet?

For this type of setup, the Fiber Media Converter (FMC) that outputs Ethernet to your DAC should be equipped with a LPS. (Note: iPower is not a LPS.)

If your DAC has 1000Mbps Ethernet port, a potential matching model might be a pair of TP-Link MC210CS, but you'd need to check with your DAC manufacturer for compatibility. It'd be interesting to know what they say about FMC.

(In case any Lumin user is reading this post, please note different model of FMC is required for different Lumin models due to different types of Ethernet.)

[wklie]

I find that turning off WiFi on my Mac mini always sounds better.

That's due to WiFi RFI damaging SQ, but as with any audio debate there are people who do not believe this or think their system is not affected by it.

[jinjuku]

That's due to WiFi RFI damaging SQ, but as with any audio debate there are people who do not believe this or think their system is not affected by it.

In the testing I've done I've yet to see any degradation to SQ via WiFi. Even when I was disabling the WiFi during playback (and playing out of buffer) both on a Cary Audio DMS 500 and a Server / Client Setup feeding an Emotiva DC-1 no one could tell the difference.

I'm not sure what situation this would be the norm so if you could lay out a setup that can be reproduced.

Since you work at Lumin: Why isn't there an SFP GBIC module and then the end user can pick what module they want to run. I've a drawer full of Fiber and RJE SFP's.

[AJR]

In a few days’ time I am home auditioning the following ethernet cables:
- basic cables
- AQ Cinnamon
- AQ Vodka

I can’t wait!