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  1. #1
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    Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    Hello,

    Every once in a while I get the itch to purchase a bookshelf speaker that would be an alternate to my floor standers. (Devore O96's) The speakers would be driven by my Haut Brion. Seems to be a limited selection of efficient bookshelf speakers. Do any of you have any experience with shindo amps and Devore 3XL, Proac tab 10 or anniversary, Ref 3a? Any others I should consider?

    Cheers

  2. #2

    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    Ref3a always seemed highly regarded, but the de capo are still only 8ohm. Never heard the Devore. Doubt it would work. Just a guess. Audio Note? Omegas?


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  3. #3
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    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    I would recommend the Omega bookshelf speakers with Shindo amp you have.


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    Paul

  4. #4
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    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

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  5. #5
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    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    The 3xl's would work if you are not really cranking the volume.

    You could look at the Falcon LS3/5a's.....they should work well.

    The Omega's mentioned above would likely be nice as well.
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  6. #6

    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    The Omegas mentioned above are not bookshelf speakers and are 6-8 ohms. You can use your Shindo amp with whatever speakers you want, I guess, but the reality is that they shine with very few.


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  7. #7
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    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    Depending on your definition of "bookshelf speaker", this model might be a little more appropriate as a second change of pace speaker.

    http://omegaloudspeakers.com/compactalnicomon.html
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  8. #8
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    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    I thought the Haut Brion out put is 8 ohms.


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  9. #9
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    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    Believe that they are 20 watts (or maybe 25 depending on the output tubes).
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  10. #10

    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    Interesting. My gm70 had an 8ohm tap


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  11. #11
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    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    I actually misread Paul's comment above as power output....not sure what speaker taps are set at.
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  12. #12
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    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    Most of Shindo amps are 8 ohms. ( CC80 , CV 391 , Haut Brion , Dyquem and Cortese ) As far as I know. Correct me if I'm wrong.


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  13. #13
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    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    Anyway to OP I had a Devore 3XL with Shindo. I wasn't happy with sounds. It was bit too thin.


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    Paul

  14. #14

    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul View Post
    Most of Shindo amps are 8 ohms. ( CC80 , CV 391 , Haut Brion , Dyquem and Cortese ) As far as I know. Correct me if I'm wrong.


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    Don't know. What I can say for certain is that the Shindo reps in the US do not rec 8ohm speakers. From my experience Devore Nines and Tannoy speakers did not work with various Shindo amps, incl my 8ohm GM70 in the Tannoy.


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  15. #15
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    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    Funny, This is what makes our hobby funny and interesting. With my experience, the Shindo amp was top 3 in my book with Tannoy speakers and the DeVore O/96 didn't even come close.

    So Mr. Ken made his amp compatible for 8 ohms speakers but Shindo reps in the US do not recommend them. Hmmmm
    Paul

  16. #16
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    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul View Post
    Most of Shindo amps are 8 ohms. ( CC80 , CV 391 , Haut Brion , Dyquem and Cortese ) As far as I know. Correct me if I'm wrong.
    Actually, most have 16ohm Lundahl tformers. And I'm positive the HB does.

    The Corton-Charlemagnes I believe use 8 ohm Hammond transformers.
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  17. #17
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    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    Quote Originally Posted by kev313 View Post
    Don't know. What I can say for certain is that the Shindo reps in the US do not rec 8ohm speakers. From my experience Devore Nines and Tannoy speakers did not work with various Shindo amps, incl my 8ohm GM70 in the Tannoy.
    This is true - my Devore/Shindo dealer won't recommend a Shindo amp for my Gibbon Xs, although concedes that the one that just might work (and discontinued I believe) is the CCQ
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  18. #18

    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul View Post
    Funny, This is what makes our hobby funny and interesting. With my experience, the Shindo amp was top 3 in my book with Tannoy speakers and the DeVore O/96 didn't even come close.

    So Mr. Ken made his amp compatible for 8 ohms speakers but Shindo reps in the US do not recommend them. Hmmmm
    Now you see what you did there is you made the assumption that 1.) the amps all work at 8ohms / have 8 ohm taps and 2.) Shindo designed them to be used that way.

    We have no proof of that.

    Then you implied that the reps had some hidden agenda at play by not recommending 8ohm speakers.

    No evidence of that.

    In fact, these are passionate guys who want nothing more than for people to experience Shindo at its best. They'd rather you buy a used altec than a new pair of the wrong speakers to use with Shindo. Theirs included. Trust me when I say the approach has likely cost them more than it made them.


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  19. #19
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    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    It's ok Kev. I don't care less about this Shindo matching stuff anyway and I clearly mention that what amps was using the 8 ohm taps coz I owned few amps myself.




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    Paul

  20. #20

    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    Maybe they recommend the 8ohm amps for 8ohm speakers. Don't really know for sure. They'd be the guys to ask.


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  21. #21
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    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    Kev - is that you selling the full Shindo system on Audiogon or someone else?

    Regardless, nice stuff.

    https://www.audiogon.com/listings/tu...602-oakland-ca


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  22. #22

    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Kev - is that you selling the full Shindo system on Audiogon or someone else?

    Regardless, nice stuff.

    https://www.audiogon.com/listings/tu...602-oakland-ca


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    Someone else, but I have sold most of my gear, including my speakers.


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  23. #23
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    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    Quote Originally Posted by kev313 View Post
    Someone else, but I have sold most of my gear, including my speakers.


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    Ok.

    What are you doing next for a system?


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  24. #24

    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    Using other gear I've had stuffed into various corners of my house. I'll be going back to my Musical Affairs speakers for a bit. Probably with a Wavelength 45 amp. I'll also be moving in the near future so who knows? One thing I can say is that downsizing feels good. I think I was actually at a point where my enjoyment of the hobby actually significantly decreased due to my investment in time and $.


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  25. #25
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    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    I bet the 45 amp is pretty sweet. I have one and love it.


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  26. #26
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    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    [QUOTE=kev313;197249]Now you see what you did there is you made the assumption that 1.) the amps all work at 8ohms / have 8 ohm taps and 2.) Shindo designed them to be used that way.

    We have no proof of that.

    Then you implied that the reps had some hidden agenda at play by not recommending 8ohm speakers.

    No evidence of that.

    In fact, these are passionate guys who want nothing more than for people to experience Shindo at its best. They'd rather you buy a used altec than a new pair of the wrong speakers to use with Shindo. Theirs included. Trust me when I say the approach has likely cost them more than it made them.

    That is very true. When I had Wilson speakers the distribtor for Shindo was not keen on me using them with a Shindo amp. He wasent interested in doing business until I purchased speakers with an easier load. They are real passionate guys who believe in synergy and system matching, preferably with all shindo based components and speakers. Thanks for all the speaker suggestions.

  27. #27

    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    [QUOTE=lowens;197260]
    Quote Originally Posted by kev313 View Post
    Now you see what you did there is you made the assumption that 1.) the amps all work at 8ohms / have 8 ohm taps and 2.) Shindo designed them to be used that way.

    We have no proof of that.

    Then you implied that the reps had some hidden agenda at play by not recommending 8ohm speakers.

    No evidence of that.

    In fact, these are passionate guys who want nothing more than for people to experience Shindo at its best. They'd rather you buy a used altec than a new pair of the wrong speakers to use with Shindo. Theirs included. Trust me when I say the approach has likely cost them more than it made them.

    That is very true. When I had Wilson speakers the distribtor for Shindo was not keen on me using them with a Shindo amp. He wasent interested in doing business until I purchased speakers with an easier load. They are real passionate
    guys who believe in synergy and system matching, preferably with all shindo based components and speakers. Thanks for all the speaker suggestions.
    Call Matt @ PP or Danny @ phonographe.ca: Ask about the 15 Ohm Falcons. I heard Omega was not a good match. No direct experience. Nice to have you back on the forums. Keep us posted!
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  28. #28
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    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    Since the Canadian Omega distributor is in Osoyoos, BC not too far away finding out if the Omega's work or not could be determined. Or call Rob or Louis and see if they have had any experience with Shindo. No reason they wouldn't tell you what they know and better than "I read it on the internet."

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  29. #29

    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    Quote Originally Posted by kev313 View Post
    Someone else, but I have sold most of my gear, including my speakers.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    You sold your Shindo gear already?
    You have made such a mystery to it, and now all gone?
    You must have been loose cash in large quantities. The prices asked on the net are often phantasy prices. In real money, this companie sells for much less. There was your Shindo 604- speaker for sale lately, sold for approx. 5000$. Same model as yours. New they cost in the US a leg and an arm. Insane money is asked from those luxurious US Shindo dealers, because they want to make the big buck with the Shindo hype. Sell your used gear and you become nearly nothing. And thats a fact, the sale history of some Shindo gear on ebay and other sites reveals it. Shindo Petrus sales 2nd hand for approx. 10K$, no joke. Not bad for this model, but surely a horrible price for the seller.
    And now, you are fine without Shindo? Thats some thing I will never understand, when using Shindo everybody is making the big wave, and after that, life still goes on and on...

  30. #30

    Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    I'm afraid you don't know what your talking about. I sold a VR for more than 10k before. The 604 that sold from HiFiDo for that price was an error by the salesman. It was quite the controversy. As to losing money, yes, that applies to ... well...anything you buy new and sell used. My % loss was about the same as I've ever experienced in the world of audio. As to the retail pricing, to be honest, I agree. It is high. Welcome to "high end" audio. As to my motivation for selling, it was a combination of factors. It's just audio, man. Life goes on. It really no big shake. Christ almighty. Read a book or something. Go outside. Play a sport. Get off the forums. Good lord. It's audio.


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  31. #31

    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    They just build serious and excellent gears that had its price then and now.

  32. #32

    Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter View Post
    Maybe there was an error in one sale of Shindo, but never on ALL sales of Shindo.
    I agree, audio is (or should be at least) a healthy, joufull and just a small part of the whole life. But some people make a big mystery of it, because with a little religious mystery and High End woodoo sales just starting to grow bigger and bigger and a cult always attracts some people.
    So what about all the mysteries you made of your ex-Shindo 604? You could see them on HifiDo inside and out, with all the details attached. And that happens with everything mystified, it takes only some time and the secrets were revealed.
    Serious Hifi and professional audio comanies like WE, Klangfilm and others never made a mystery of their products or re-label false Telefunken ECL94S tubes that never existed.
    They just build serious and excellent gears that had its price then and now.
    Who made a mystery out of it? Look, I don't get hung up on whatever the mystical elements are alleged to be. I do find that Shindo sounds great in an all Shindo system. I've had Shindo amps with other speakers and it was not so hot.

    That's my experience. Paid for with my money.

    As far as the speakers go, you are preaching to the choir. As a former owner, I find the prices to be outrageously high. Yes, there is not much there there to a non FC 604. Even to the field coil. I don't get the price. I don't get it at all. And the cabinet is as plain as can be with a construction quality that is inferior to Klipsch. Does it make it sound better? Don't know. But it sounds pretty good. To the extent that there are mysteries, you have the crossover, the field coil conversion, and the power supply. Not unlike any other speaker in many regards I suppose. But hey, it sounds like you have a problem with Shindo. Take it up with them. It sounds great. It also costs a lot. At least here in the US. I've heard the same rumors as everyone else about the high markup with one friend telling me that the original big Latour cost closer to 10k in Japan 15 years ago. Well, that's 15 years ago. And in Japan. I don't know. I do know that it costs money to import speakers to the US and to develop from scratch a business with a network of people who are there to assist customers. I never had an issue that the Shindo guys could not fix. And I never had to hassle with shipping or duties. They took care of everything. So, yes, it costs a lot. Everyone has to eat. Does it cost too much? Don't know. Sounds like you made your decision.

    If you want it to cost less, sorry. If you are angry because you want it and think it should cost less, also sorry. If you are angry because I bought it, sorry. If you are angry because I sold it, sorry.

    I'm also sorry that you are mistaken on resale value. The preamps and amps regularly sell for over 50% of their retail cost. 60-65% is typical. More than that and you got lucky. Again, my experience and I have a lot. My experience is in the US only. Can't speak for other markets.


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  33. #33
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    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    There is (was?) definitely a strong Shindo following in the U.S., but I never saw it in other parts - especially, ironically, in Asia.

    Is the brand kind of fading away now that Ken Shindo has died?

    The times I heard Shindo, I loved it. I would love to try the Shindo 300b amp on my Avantgarde horns.


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  34. #34

    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    I don't think Ken really had an impact on the US Shindo side. Other than the obvious of course. The brand is healthy from a product standpoint. They have plenty of designs and more in the pipeline from his son. I have no idea how to measure fading away in an "industry" that probably ranks somewhere below model railroads and a bit above remote control boats on the popularity scale. It's never been a huge brand. They got a big intro to the market back in 04? from 6moons (before 6moons went off the ledge and started covering every guy with a soldering iron in his garage) and get a bounce from time to time with Art Dudley. Some favorable reviews now several years ago from Jack Roberts. But that's it. They don't bring the brand to shows and they don't chase reviews. They clearly don't do a lot of warm and cuddly outreach. As a result, they are perennially off the radar unless there is forum chatter. And that is kind of self defeating because their cold shoulder approach makes so many people mad that much forum talk turns negative.

    Maybe it's a marketing approach. Like Jude Law in the Young Pope. Don't know. What I can say for certain is that the Shindo crew is out DGAF'ing while we talk about it. Very nice to like minded people. Very helpful. For those who are not interested in their vision, they have no interest in that person owning Shindo. As simple as that. It doesn't lead to a brand that makes a lot of noise.


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  35. #35

    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    Quote Originally Posted by kev313 View Post
    For those who are not interested in their vision, they have no interest in that person owning Shindo. As simple as that. It doesn't lead to a brand that makes a lot of noise.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    They are simply not able to avoid those customers doing business with them. The cult of Shindo attracts people and forces them to spend substantial money on this gear, just to try out this new audiophile toys. What happens next, with some of this equipment? They fail in composing the "Shindo house sound", maybe by lack of knowledge, maybe by wrong implementation in their own systems. And very quickly after the purchase, those gears pop up in the usual second hand channels for (relatively) low prices to offer.
    The other kind of owners thought they had to change someting in their systems from time to time, those are the owners who sell later, but they will sell for sure, maybe it took 5 or 10 years. They have to toy around with this hobby, put in new gear, took old gear out.
    And there is a very rare, hardcore crew who made it to the "Shindo sound" and appreciate it so much, that they strongly hold on to this gear and will never change. But that is only a small minority of all the Shindo users. So what to do when a customer comes to the store with deep pockets full of potential money to spend on audio gear? They simply sell to them, not knowing what will happen in the future. Its just a business, man, you know, they are in it for the money to make a living. Just an ordinary salesman crew.

  36. #36

    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    Ok. That applies to probably every person and company in business in hifi, if not in sales overall. Point?


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  37. #37
    Senior Member
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    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    I think of Shindo much like I think of Spectral on the SS side - as a turn-key solution that works for some, doesn't for others. While Shindo prices aren't cheap, its US dealer base allows full credit towards upgrades which makes them hold value.
    Brinkmann Bardo w/ EMT HSD-006 cart, MSB Reference DAC --> Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL --> Ampzilla 2000, 2nd Edition --> Fyne Audio F1-12

  38. #38

    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    Prices of bookshelf speakers continually went upwards

  39. #39

    Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithR View Post
    I think of Shindo much like I think of Spectral on the SS side - as a turn-key solution that works for some, doesn't for others. While Shindo prices aren't cheap, its US dealer base allows full credit towards upgrades which makes them hold value.
    This is true re: the trade in. Although Matt will reduce the % allowed after a period of time. Which is fair. A benefit to the customer.

    On the other hand, the economics of that approach always confused me. If you assume that the customer originally bought an item with a cost to dealer price of $2,000, for example, and traded it in for an item with a cost to dealer price of $5,000, I don't see how the dealer makes money on the trade in / new sale unless there is a markup factor of 4.

    ^That assumes only one person in the chain. I do not know how the distributor influences the cost nor what the distribution costs are other than related to product purchase and import. So, frankly, it's all speculation but it is something to do with my idle moments.


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  40. #40

    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    Those trade in programs are just created to free potential customers from the constant worrying to the upcoming problems selling the newly purchased gear. They create an illusion of safety and excuse of all the worryings in the mind that wants you to prevent from failure decisions in life.
    In practice, the programm seldom applies because they are specified and restricted like an insurance contract. What about all the gear on the free second hand market, why doesnt the dealers do a trade in for their equipment? Maybe trade in prices are too low or something other prevents customers to make a trade in work out right?

  41. #41
    Senior Member
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    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    [QUOTE=fjn04;197307]
    Quote Originally Posted by lowens View Post

    Call Matt @ PP or Danny @ phonographe.ca: Ask about the 15 Ohm Falcons. I heard Omega was not a good match. No direct experience. Nice to have you back on the forums. Keep us posted!
    My Shindo CCQs amps shine with the Falcon's 15 ohm.
    Oh wait... they shine no matter the speakers I connect to them...but....don't say it. That's a secret. Bookself speakers for shindo amps
    Shindo, Nagra, Electrocompaniet, Harbeth, AMR, Mc Intosh, Auditorium 23, Rega, DeVore, JC Verdier, WireWorld, Kimber

  42. #42
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    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter View Post
    Those trade in programs are just created to free potential customers from the constant worrying to the upcoming problems selling the newly purchased gear. They create an illusion of safety and excuse of all the worryings in the mind that wants you to prevent from failure decisions in life.
    In practice, the programm seldom applies because they are specified and restricted like an insurance contract. What about all the gear on the free second hand market, why doesnt the dealers do a trade in for their equipment? Maybe trade in prices are too low or something other prevents customers to make a trade in work out right?
    What is your agenda here Walter?
    Brinkmann Bardo w/ EMT HSD-006 cart, MSB Reference DAC --> Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL --> Ampzilla 2000, 2nd Edition --> Fyne Audio F1-12

  43. #43

    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithR View Post
    What is your agenda here Walter?
    Interesting. I also thought the CCQ was the only Shindo amp that was for 8ohm. News to me that the
    GM70 was, but I think beyond that, they are for 16 ohm. Cheers -Don
    EMT Tsd-15 SFL/ WTL Amadeus GTA/ A23 Homage T2/ Shindo VR/Shindo D'yquem/Altec Valencia 846A w/ Werner Jagusch Crossover/ DeVore 0/96's/ Lignolab Rack

  44. #44
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    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul View Post
    Most of Shindo amps are 8 ohms. ( CC80 , CV 391 , Haut Brion , Dyquem and Cortese ) As far as I know. Correct me if I'm wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by KeithR View Post
    Actually, most have 16ohm Lundahl tformers. And I'm positive the HB does.

    The Corton-Charlemagnes I believe use 8 ohm Hammond transformers.
    Agree with Keith here - my Haut Brion certainly had 16 Ohm tabs, so did my Cortese. I am not sure about the Montille 6V6 but was pretty sure it was optimized for higher load as well.

    I did try many speakers with Shindo (Omega Super 3, Cain Abby, Devore Super 8, Devore O/96, Shindo Lafite, Verity Sarastro, Altec Valencia).

    The best speakers were the Altec and Devores in my opinion. Omega and Verity was a terrible match. My bet would be on Devore 3XL of the Falcons, the higher the impedance the better.

  45. #45

    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    Thought I would chime in here too...I purchased Kev's old VR and have been enjoying it immensely. Thanks Kev!

    The one practice I don't like is the mandate that if you have a local dealer, you must purchased all new and USED gear through them. For new gear I understand, but the used hifi buyer and the new hifi buyer are not the same demographic. I would have bought a few things from Matt's trade in page had I been able (he probably does the most volume), but I have a very low volume Shindo dealer by me so I'm not permitted to buy used from Matt. Whereas someone in the middle of the country estranged from any dealer can buy trade-in gear from any Shindo dealer...


    Quote Originally Posted by kev313 View Post
    This is true re: the trade in. Although Matt will reduce the % allowed after a period of time. Which is fair. A benefit to the customer.

    On the other hand, the economics of that approach always confused me. If you assume that the customer originally bought an item with a cost to dealer price of $2,000, for example, and traded it in for an item with a cost to dealer price of $5,000, I don't see how the dealer makes money on the trade in / new sale unless there is a markup factor of 4.

    ^That assumes only one person in the chain. I do not know how the distributor influences the cost nor what the distribution costs are other than related to product purchase and import. So, frankly, it's all speculation but it is something to do with my idle moments.


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  46. #46

    Re: Bookself speakers for shindo amps

    The Rogers/EMI studio monitors work very well.

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