Tubes vs Solid State - Are we seeing a turning point?

[Mike]

It will come as no surprise that I am a huge tube amp/preamp fan. With a closet full of tubes ranging from dozens of rectifiers to dozens and dozens of input and output tubes, I thoroughly enjoy rolling tubes and the euphonic sonics delivered. To me, tubes still nail tonality. The sound of piano, guitar, even vocals, is more "natural", more "organic".

But are we seeing a turning point? Let's face it, tube amps had a 60 year head start on transistors. Many transistor amps in the 70's, 80's, 90's were just plain bad and no where near SOTA transistor amps today. Sure, there were some decent finds during those era's, but most were stinkers.

SOTA solid state amps today from Soulution, CH, Pass, Ayre, D'Agostino and many others have reached a new level of sonics giving many tube amps a run for their money.

But here is what I'm noticing: at the same time that solid state amps are reaching new sonic heights, speaker driver materials are becoming more exotic, and more specifically, stiffer. Carbon, ceramic, diamond, Graphene Nano-Tec, etc. All very stiff materials. I would argue that a lot of these exotic, stiff materials are less tube friendly. Whether you want to argue that it's damping factor or some other factor, it just seems to me that time and time again these SOTA speakers with stiff materials sound more controlled and frankly sound better with solid state.

I was speaking with a reviewer friend of mine, Richard Mak. He said to me that many of his friends in Asia have found the exact same thing: newer driver materials are stiffer and sound best with solid state.

Of course, this doesn't mean that these SOTA speakers don't sound great with tubes - of course they do....but do they ultimately sound better, more controlled, more "hand in glove" with Solid State?

[the professor]

Interesting point Mike.

I never really tied the two together - speaker materials and the tube/SS debate.

It does seem to me that over the past 5 years or so that SS has made great strides into being more musical like tubes and Tubes have made strides into being full range, having bass slam. So the SOTA amps of each are sounding more alike than different.

[a.wayne]

I see it a bit different , apart from well built SET's and their unique speaker combination , top tier SS never gave anything up to Toobs , that experience started for me in 78, the problem is and was really the speakers , toobs are intrinsically helpful to bad speakers where SS is brutal if anything is out of wack.

Most so called SS glare ( top tier SS not mid fi SS) are from poorly designed speakers/xover systems.


BTW for the most part , both Toob and SS amplifiers being made today are better than their counterparts from previous generations ...

[a.wayne]

Interesting point Mike.

I never really tied the two together - speaker materials and the tube/SS debate.

It does seem to me that over the past 5 years or so that SS has made great strides into being more musical like tubes and Tubes have made strides into being full range, having bass slam. So the SOTA amps of each are sounding more alike than different.

I used to have a pr of MC3500's they never lacked bass slam and gave nothing up to SS of the era with Bass, well Built SS just ( large output stages, fully matched, fully balanced with regulated supplies) did everything better , the Big MAc was really good in the top end thou , all in all pretty close , but that Big tooby did not lack bass slam..

BTW, very few SS amps are fully balanced ...

[the professor]

Very true - there are exceptions to everything. I was certainly talking in generalizations.

Not sure how relevant - but yes, very few SS amps are fully balanced.

[MarinJim]

Redhead, blond or brunettes. Take your pick as long as they come with a nice stereo "rack".

[Old Bob]

view from a newbie! I heard my bowers and wilkins speakers in a high end store, switched back and forth from prima luna tube amp to comparably priced solid state. BOTH sounded quite good. the solid state, more ??"crisp and accurate"???? and the tubes more rich, warm and friendly.

perhaps it is as A wayne said, solid state exposes every little flaw in a speaker!

a wayne also said:

well Built SS ( large output stages, fully matched, fully balanced with regulated supplies.

OK, what does "fully matched" "fully balanced" and "regulated supplies" mean, with regard to solid state amps?

thanks!

dummy Bob

[jdandy]

It has been my experience that tube and solid state together present a remarkable performance. Over the past 20+ years I have had the pleasure to enjoy many combinations of preamplifiers and power amplifiers. I have assembled sound systems that used a solid state preamp with solid state power amplifiers, tube preamp with tube power amplifiers, tube preamp with solid state power amplifiers, and solid state preamp with tube power amplifiers. During the past four or five years I have settled on two separate sound systems, one with a tube preamplifier (C2300) and solid state power amplifiers (MC601's), and the second system employing a solid state preamplifier (C1000C/P) and tube power amplifiers (MC2301's). The combination of tubes and solid state bring beneficial characteristics of both design concepts to the table. In my humble opinion though, my solid state preamplifier and tube power amplifier system delivers a slightly more natural, organic, and holistic presentation. The rich full texture and timbre of voices and instruments distinguish themselves in such a manner that music rises to a level where I am pulled deeper into the experience, my emotions are more readily captured, and imagination is more fully painted without boundaries. The solid state preamplifier provides ultra quiet background, lightning quick dynamics, macro and micro details galore, and wide frequency range with ultra low harmonic distortion. It is the perfect control device to feed a pair of premium tube amplifiers. The solid state preamp with 300 watt per channel mono tube power amps deliver a thoroughly satisfying aural experience. This is not to say the tube preamplifier and solid state power amplifier system isn't involving, it certainly is, but the essence of living tonal harmonic richness literally oozes from the tube power amplifiers in a manner not fully developed to the same degree by the solid state power amplifiers, even paired with the tube preamp.

With respect to driving modern speaker designs that embrace state of the art materials for woofer cones and midrange drivers, as well as the exotic materials used to create advanced dome tweeters, ribbon tweeter, air motion transformers, and the respective robust crossovers, it has always required power amplifiers capable of delivering plenty of clean current and solid voltage on demand, often lots of it continuously. Not all amplifiers are able to achieve this task. Amplifiers that can deliver the required current and voltage, as well as extremely low to nearly immeasurable distortion, generally have no issues making the best modern speakers sing with unflappable aplomb. If there is a turning point to identify it is probably that there are any number of exceptional solid state and tube power amplifiers that easily rise to the occasion. I am happy to have a foot in both camps.

We are so fortunate to be living in a time where we are able to enjoy the best audio equipment ever designed and manufactured. The selection of audio components that deliver premium level performance has never been greater. There is literally something to make everyone pleased. Color me a happy camper.

[Jozua]

There is something to tubes I do not experience with SS amps- it just sounds more natural and somehow the music just emotionally connects with me in a manner I do not experience with SS,

Up to now I have been unable to explain it.

[a.wayne]

There is something to tubes I do not experience with SS amps- it just sounds more natural and somehow the music just emotionally connects with me in a manner I do not experience with SS,

Up to now I have been unable to explain it.

What speakers and what SS have you compared the toobs to .. ?


Another point i would like to make and this one has been most relevant over the decades to me when comparing amplifiers. Since Most audiophile systems are drastically under powered, philes tend to like amplifiers and judge amplifiers based on their clipping characteristics, Toobs tend to clip softly compared to SS and produce less "glare" when doing so ..


When comparing its best to level match ....



regards

[a.wayne]

view from a newbie! I heard my bowers and wilkins speakers in a high end store, switched back and forth from prima luna tube amp to comparably priced solid state. BOTH sounded quite good. the solid state, more ??"crisp and accurate"???? and the tubes more rich, warm and friendly.

perhaps it is as A wayne said, solid state exposes every little flaw in a speaker!

a wayne also said:

well Built SS ( large output stages, fully matched, fully balanced with regulated supplies.

OK, what does "fully matched" "fully balanced" and "regulated supplies" mean, with regard to solid state amps?

thanks!

dummy Bob

Fully matched : means all active devices in the amplifier are matched pr..

Fully Balanced : Your would need 2 stereo amplifiers(4 ch) to make a fully balanced Stereo pr , while many advertise Balanced inputs they are not fully balanced by any means and are only balanced input connection.

spectral is one example of a fully balanced Amplifier .

Fully Regulated : Means the PSU is fully regulated to supply a constant voltage to the main amp regardless of load and voltage ( to some degree) supply, These amps typically have two chassis, and look like two amplfiers , as the PSU will have to be massive and be identical actively to do so...


Not sure if the two chassis Pass amps are or not ....

regards

[Jozua]

What speakers and what SS have you compared the toobs to .. ? ...

When comparing its best to level match ....

regards

I have used Krell all my live - and on the spur of the moment bought a Audio Research Ls 27 and then a ARC Ref 110 and it is a totally new experience. Although the Ref110 is 100 watts I have found that you need to be more careful with the speaker selection than with SS.

Speakers is Newform Research

[XV-1]

Not really

They still sound quite different together and mixed. Neither is completely better top to bottom that the other.

I am sure everyone can invent a component in their mind and it would combine the best of both tube and SS.

[KeithR]

Wanted to wait until RMAF before I joined in the debate here. I would venture that 80% of the rooms featured SS amplification. My favorite systems were mostly SS driven, despite me being more of a tube guy (well, some tube preamps were involved). I do think in tube land there is a lot more than just ARC and CJ like 20 years ago and parts have become much better that have made tube amplification more linear. For SS, less negative feedback is being used which is more tube-like.

That said, when I got home I was thinking about adding a tube integrated to my stable

[Mike]

My point of SS vs tubes AS IT RELATES TO MODERN/STIFFER DRIVERS couldn't have been demonstrated any better than with the Tidal rooms at RMAF (which were side by side). In one room, we had Zanden with Tidal. Sloppy sounds. Mushy. Muddy. I would have denounced the Tidal speakers after hearing them in that room. But, the exact same Tidal speakers were in the room next door with the Bricasti M28's and new M12. WOW! Night and day! Speed, detailed, controlled, great separation, musically engaging to boot!

[a.wayne]

Thats usually my experience with toobs vs SS, exceptions being well made SET with correct speaker load, that one is a different cat ...


Toob pre-amps do rock, big bandwidth and fast ....

[bonzo]

I disagree. Tubes being sloppy, mushy and muddy is same as SS being sterile, flat soundstage, and harsh. These are the negatives of both, and good products from both genres get past that. As for Zanden, Detlof from WBF and I both preferred his MSB much more to his Zanden CD+Dac, and he does not like his Zanden phono for the same reason (instead using his Lamm and Kondo M1000), and another reported the same on Zanden amps. So that is probably a house sound.

I know someone who preferred his Dartzeel to his Shindo on his high efficiency speakers.

Yet...there are too many incidences of toobs beating the sh*t out of SS on tone, soundstage, realism. KR Audio, NAT, other SETs. Joel of 6 moons, who has had tons of experience with high powered amplifiers (must be a trait of people with the name of Joe in it) prefers the Luxman M800 and the Ayon Orthos to Karan 2000w and Chord amps on Vivid G1s and Maggie 20.7. Yet some prefer the CAT Jl on Vivids. OTLs and quads are considered a dream match.

I have heard both Spectral 400s and VTL next to each other on Wilson XLF. Former was cleaner and faster, but lacked harmonics and realism. Ideally I would have chosen something midway. I have found that Spectral is best paired with a valve up the chain. Indeed Marty from WBF replaced his Siegfrieds with Spectrals to create one of the best rooms in the US. And I walked away impressed with Vitus after comparing to Kondo Kagura and M1000 on the Magicos at Rhapsodys.

Many drive my favorite speakers, restored Apogees, with Tube Research Labs. I heard one on the Duetta and it was awesome.

To get good SS quality can be extremely expensive.

In short, there is no right answer, and one can only hurt oneself being ideological. Also, I think everyone should own one Jadis irrespective of what the main amp is. It is just magic.

[KeithR]

My point of SS vs tubes AS IT RELATES TO MODERN/STIFFER DRIVERS

I think we also have to consider what kind of enclosure these newer drivers are in - if its sealed box, it is pretty much going to need big tubes or SS to begin with.

But regarding material you're right that something like a paper driver is probably going to be used in SET applications whereas some other materials take more energy to drive. That said, I've heard a lot of ceramics being driven by tube amps. Marten, EA, Kharma, Vapor to name a few.

[bonzo]

DDK was the Kharma distributor once and used to drive it with Lamm. What are the modern, stiffer drivers btw?

[Mike]

DDK was the Kharma distributor once and used to drive it with Lamm. What are the modern, stiffer drivers btw?

See my OP.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[a.wayne]

I think we also have to consider what kind of enclosure these newer drivers are in - if its sealed box, it is pretty much going to need big tubes or SS to begin with.

But regarding material you're right that something like a paper driver is probably going to be used in SET applications whereas some other materials take more energy to drive. That said, I've heard a lot of ceramics being driven by tube amps. Marten, EA, Kharma, Vapor to name a few.

Ceramics have a different requirement vs Paper , they require complex xovers to make them work unlike paper where most are run with simple xovers , SS is better suited for complex high phase angle xovers.

Paper is a hard sell in todays Market , but IMO , paper is easily the most natural sounding material for dynamic drivers, especially in the midrange ...


Regards

[a.wayne]

I disagree. Tubes being sloppy, mushy and muddy is same as SS being sterile, flat soundstage, and harsh. These are the negatives of both, and good products from both genres get past that. As for Zanden, Detlof from WBF and I both preferred his MSB much more to his Zanden CD+Dac, and he does not like his Zanden phono for the same reason (instead using his Lamm and Kondo M1000), and another reported the same on Zanden amps. So that is probably a house sound.

I know someone who preferred his Dartzeel to his Shindo on his high efficiency speakers.

Yet...there are too many incidences of toobs beating the sh*t out of SS on tone, soundstage, realism. KR Audio, NAT, other SETs. Joel of 6 moons, who has had tons of experience with high powered amplifiers (must be a trait of people with the name of Joe in it) prefers the Luxman M800 and the Ayon Orthos to Karan 2000w and Chord amps on Vivid G1s and Maggie 20.7. Yet some prefer the CAT Jl on Vivids. OTLs and quads are considered a dream match.

I have heard both Spectral 400s and VTL next to each other on Wilson XLF. Former was cleaner and faster, but lacked harmonics and realism. Ideally I would have chosen something midway. I have found that Spectral is best paired with a valve up the chain. Indeed Marty from WBF replaced his Siegfrieds with Spectrals to create one of the best rooms in the US. And I walked away impressed with Vitus after comparing to Kondo Kagura and M1000 on the Magicos at Rhapsodys.

Many drive my favorite speakers, restored Apogees, with Tube Research Labs. I heard one on the Duetta and it was awesome.

To get good SS quality can be extremely expensive.

In short, there is no right answer, and one can only hurt oneself being ideological. Also, I think everyone should own one Jadis irrespective of what the main amp is. It is just magic.

The tube amps you are rating with some exception are SET , No ..?

One must always match amp to load and im sure there are going to be instances where one supercedes the other, due to system matching etc , but not always in absolute terms .

Spectral is a bad match for Wilson imo, wilsons works best with amps with a bit of darkness ,(Vtl) Dave voices his speakers that Way, an amp as revealing as Spectral would sound brutal on them and that has been my experience, speakers smooth and or a bit laid back will be better on Spectral gear .

Mag 20.1/20.7 can sound thin , so system match is very important ..

Then there's personal taste , listening levels, clipping charateristics , et al and all will be the ultimate arbiter in determining what we like and ultimately choose ...

With a few exceptions , Im with Mike thou in that i find most toobs sluggish and too laid back on more speakers than i care to name , well built SET's the exception ....


regards

[stump]

I hope there isn't a turning point.I run a Vitus -025 Amp and part the year swap it out with Line Magnetic Tube Amp.I love the difference in both with equal listening pleasure....
Stump

[Steve]

I have had the opportunity to compare the McIntosh C1000P (solid state) and C1000T (tube) against various balanced sources. I was expecting that these pre-amps were very similar according to reviews and posts. They are more than subtly different! A lot can be said about source matching to one, the other or both. I had a preconception of what I thought which sources should perform better with each pre-amp but I was surprised to discover the opposite was true with some sources according to my setup electronics, mood and listening bias.

Amplifiers are McIntosh MC2301s tube driven by ECC801S, Gold Lion KT88 reissues.
The C1000T is driven by Tesla E83CC gold / Telefunken ECC803S.

Same cable comparison, typically Siltech Princess XLR all stages. All components are fully balanced except the turntable.


1. Home Theatre, Burr Brown DACs - ss pre-amp
2. Studer Analogue Tuner - tube pre-amp
3. Studer Tape R2R and cassette - solid state pre-amp for playback
4. MDA1000 DAC - definitely TUBE pre-amp
5. Vinyl, cartridge Clearaudio GoldFinger Statement. - both but need further critical listening time.
6. SACD transport, ESS sabre DAC - ss pre-amp.

Suffice to say each source has its own inherent weaknesses. My sweet spot describes holographic resolution and degree of realism.

I was expecting R2R tape with its huge dynamic range to perform better with a tube pre-amp but so far have found with solid state, tape is blacker and better. Perhaps it's because most tape software was mastered using tube amplification?

I also found that analogue radio was less holographic with solid state pre-amplification. Also unexpected. But I suppose radio in it heyday was designed to be tube driven!

Most surprising was the MDA1000 after re-configuring the C1000C to enable the C1000T balanced DA7 XLR input instead and reassigning the C1000Ps equivalent to another source. The MDA1000 is indeed a special DAC that remains relevant to this day, especially for redbook. This DAC belongs with these pre-amps and the C1000 trio was engineered with that in mind.

BTW, my loudspeakers are Scanspeak coated paper pulp drivers and Scanspeak silk dome tweeters.

[a.wayne]

FM Radio is very much dependent on the engineer at the time and broadcast material. Good material and an experienced engineer would surprise you very much, just how good FM can be.


regards

[Steve]

FM Radio is very much dependent on the engineer at the time and broadcast material. Good material and an experienced engineer would surprise you very much, just how good FM can be.


regards

Simply love the Studer A726 FM tuner hooked up to the tube pre-amplifier on a good station such as Michael Buble's Smooth FM. To me sounds better than internet radio.

The A726 is fully balanced pro unit and is modular by design.

DAB+ of course doesn't even come close with its compression, artefacts etc.

[mep]

Simply love the Studer A726 FM tuner hooked up to the tube pre-amplifier on a good station such as Michael Buble's Smooth FM. To me sounds better than internet radio.

The A726 is fully balanced pro unit and is modular by design.

DAB+ of course doesn't even come close with its compression, artefacts etc.

It should. Internet radio is heavily compressed digital crap.

[Steve]

It should. Internet radio is heavily compressed digital crap.

I'm expecting Tidal HiFi to sound better though!

[gian60]

I listen since 1990 with triode amp like Be Yamamura,Audio Tekne,Fal,Shindo,Audio Note japan,Kondo and i always cannot listen Transistor amp.
Now i have Kondo M7,phono GE1 and 2 Souga and also CH Precision L1,P1,X1 and 2 A1 in mono and i can tell that now i prefer CH,that seems more natural,fast,transparent,and clean than Kondo.
This means that quality in transistor amp increase a lot in last few year.