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  1. #1
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    Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Hi Folks,

    I am currently using a pair of AZ Crescendo MkII in a 15'x20'x8' room. The Crescendos are powered with Nords One up monoblock. The problem I have in the room isn't the lack of or boomy bass but the bass is muddier. Most of the time its difficult to hear or differentiate between notes in the bass line and they presents as a one note tone. The same speakers in other places I have listened to works wonderfully and very musical. I have GIK monster bass traps in the corners behind the speakers and tried several different speaker position but without luck. The back of the speakers are about 6' from the back wall.

    I have been thinking of getting a pair of REL subwoofers to handle this problem but not sure if it would help in my situation. What are your thoughts on this ?

    Appreciate any response and thanks in advance.

    -- Dev

  2. #2
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Dev, once I put too many bass traps in my media room and my bass became one note and very overbearing. Removing two of them cured that issue for my room. Just given as an information point. As a suggestion, perhaps you could remove your current bass traps and measure the room's response and then treat to respond to the measurements.
    Regards,
    Steve

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  3. #3
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Thanks Steve. I had earlier started with 4 of them (based on GIK's recommendation from the REW measurements I had sent them) and now down to 2. It helped in making the room a bit more lively. I would certainly remove the remaining and re-measure this coming weekend. My impression from reading various forums, especially from Realtraps, is that every room needs a minimum of 8 bass traps to tame the room modes. I can't put those many numbers traps, so was looking for a solution with the subs.

  4. #4
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    If you are using them in the corners behind the speakers have you tried moving them to the corners on the other end? Don't know how you came up with the 6' from the rear positioning but have you tried moving them back to a starting point of 2' from the front baffle and coming forward 6" at a time. I usually start with divisions of the room by odd numbers as recommended by Vandersteen and then an inch at a time. In this room I use fifths and it has worked for every speaker with minor adjustments.
    Main - JVC QL-Y7/Denon DL-301 Mk II, Gold Note PH-10, Jays CDT3 Mk3 , Auralic Aries G2.2, Holo May KTE, Supratek Cabernet, Kinki Studio EX-B7 monoblocks, Verity Audio Otello, (2) Rythmik F12SE, Audio Envy IC, SC & PC's, Triode Wire Lab PC's, Inakustik USB and I2S, (2) Puritan Audio Labs PSM-156 with Groundmaster City, Timbernation rack

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  5. #5
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Jack,
    the 4 traps was in the front corner (behind the speakers) stacked one on top of another. I can't move them to the other corners since these corners are occupied to other stuff - one had a sliding door and other has a cabinet.

    I think I have tried most of the speaker placement available - cardas method, Wilson method, Vandersteen method, rule of 1/3rd, rule of 1/5th, and several others which I don't remember. Started with the back against the wall (for bass reinforcement) and quickly realized that it needs to moved forward - a typical problem that usually one faces is the best position for bass is not the position for a great soundstage. The current distance gets me an excellent soundstage and good bass, its just that the bass lacks quality or isn't musical enough and sounds like a one note.

    Any other possible experiments could you think of ? The other part I wanted to understand is what causes these kind of problems ? Too much ringing ? If we understand that, then it might be easier to find a solution ?

  6. #6
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Was the bass trap design before the AZ's, if so they may not be necessary at all with that particular speaker. Like was suggested earlier take them all out and see what you get. When I had TL based Reynauds in this room I didn't use any bass traps, same with the the sealed Vandersteen's. I only had to get bass traps when I went to rear ported speakers to alleviate a 70-80 Hz hump. In the interest of full disclosure all of those earlier set ups included Vandersteen 2WQ's which may have alleviated the problem. When I put the KO's in the room I never could get the 2WQ's to blend with the Nola's so I took them out. Then the obvious hump was hard to avoid. It was then that I had to look for other solutions.
    Main - JVC QL-Y7/Denon DL-301 Mk II, Gold Note PH-10, Jays CDT3 Mk3 , Auralic Aries G2.2, Holo May KTE, Supratek Cabernet, Kinki Studio EX-B7 monoblocks, Verity Audio Otello, (2) Rythmik F12SE, Audio Envy IC, SC & PC's, Triode Wire Lab PC's, Inakustik USB and I2S, (2) Puritan Audio Labs PSM-156 with Groundmaster City, Timbernation rack

    Family Room - Oppo UDP-203, Auralic Aries, Aqua La Voce S3, Kinki Studio EX-M1+, Nola KO, (2) Rythmik F-12G, Wireworld SC & IC's, Neotech PC's, SurgeX SA-1810

    Greenville, SC- Jays CDT2 Mk 3, Auralic Aries G1, Holo Spring 3 KTE, Supratek Chardonnay, Odyssey Audio Kismet Reference, Rosso Fiorentino Volterra 2, (2) RSL Speedwoofers, iFi Audio Power Station, Wireworld IC's, Inakustik USB and I2s, Triode Wire Lab SC, Triode Wire Lab PC's, Furutech NCF Clear Line, Timbernation rack.

  7. #7
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Ok, so I removed all the traps and the results are surprising. The sound stage opened up quiet a bit and now I stated to feel the musicality in the bass but its a bit bloated which I guess is expected after removing the bass traps. This weekend I would take some measurements and see what gives. I also think I might need to redo the speaker placement.

    Now that I think back, apart for the audio shows, the two personal rooms (one is of Robert's itself) I heard the Crescendos did not have any bass traps either. So may be it was fault on my part and overthinking that every room needs some. Now that I have bloated bass, how do I go about solving this ?

    Btw Jack, how did you solve the 70-80 Hz hump ? Its been a long time since I took measurements of my room but as far as I can recollect, I have a deep suck out in 30-40Hz range and few humps in the 80Hz and 120Hz range.

  8. #8
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Dev - what you are hearing now, is it with your Pass amps or your NORD amps?

    30-40hz + 80-120hz is a big range.

    Mike
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Dev - what you are hearing now, is it with your Pass amps or your NORD amps?

    30-40hz + 80-120hz is a big range.

    Mike
    Sorry Mike, I might not been clear - One big suck out closer to 37Hz and two peaks - one closer to 87Hz and another one closer to 120Hz. These were taken a long time back and at the time I was using the Pass X250.5. Since then I have changed speaker position multiple times. I will redo this weekend and repost. Sorry for the confusion.

    Right now I am using the Nords.

  10. #10
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Quote Originally Posted by Devg View Post
    Sorry Mike, I might not been clear - One big suck out closer to 37Hz and two peaks - one closer to 87Hz and another one closer to 120Hz. These were taken a long time back and at the time I was using the Pass X250.5. Since then I have changed speaker position multiple times. I will redo this weekend and repost. Sorry for the confusion.

    Right now I am using the Nords.
    Go back to the Pass as well. Give that a try.


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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Go back to the Pass as well. Give that a try.
    Ok, will do that. Did you wanted to check if the Pass did not bloat the bass as the Nords ?

  12. #12
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Quote Originally Posted by Devg View Post
    Ok, will do that. Did you wanted to check if the Pass did not bloat the bass as the Nords ?
    We need to rule out everything.


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  13. #13
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Well it will be a little easier to solve this problem since you have REW and can see as well as hear the results. Check out the waterfall plots in addition to the frequency response ones. Look for modal ringing in the range of 50 -300Hz and for 300mS or more.

    It takes trial and error and patience. Establish a centerline in the room and a way to mark the positions of the speakers and proposed listening position. Start moving the speakers fore or aft in 6" increments measuring as you go. Then move the listening position if you can once you've got the speakers and measurements sounding/looking good as that'll make an even bigger difference most likely. Once you've got the placements down try adding the bass traps.

    Of course you could buy Jim Smith's book "Get Better Sound" if none of this makes sense. It's chock full of other good stuff as well.

    Using subs adds a whole other level of complication but it does allow you to optimize sound stage separately from bass. I bet this is fixable without them.

    Good luck!

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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Of course you could buy Jim Smith's book "Get Better Sound" if none of this makes sense. It's chock full of other good stuff as well.
    Thanks for the comment, Barry!

    FWIW - I am currently writing a series on correct subwoofer set-up with "full-range speakers" over at the Copper e-magazine. But it won't be quite what most audiophiles expect, especially if they suffer from ACK.

    ACK:

    http://www.psaudio.com/article/the-a...mon-knowledge/

    Subwoofery:

    http://www.psaudio.com/article/subwo...rick-or-treat/
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Some updates:

    After removing the traps, I felt something was missing with the sound. So I tried playing with the speaker positioning and re-adjusted to move it by a 1ft closer to the wall. I also had to move forward my listening position a bit. Bass is much better & taut but still a bit bloated.

    I am getting the TWL Digital American high current power cords for the Nords tomorrow. Will update the thread after it has settled down.

    @Mike, I tried the Pass, same results.

    @Barry, will do measurements over the weekends.

    @Jim, I have your DVD set for a while now. Is there anything in the book that is not covered in the video ? I am very much looking forward to the subwoofer setup series. I don't have any ACK whatsoever, can I get my hands on earlier ?

  16. #16
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Dev - does it sound like the bass lingers longer than the rest of the music or is the bass just flabby and uncontrolled? Also, are the speakers spiked?


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  17. #17
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Quote Originally Posted by Devg View Post
    Some updates:

    After removing the traps, I felt something was missing with the sound. So I tried playing with the speaker positioning and re-adjusted to move it by a 1ft closer to the wall. I also had to move forward my listening position a bit. Bass is much better & taut but still a bit bloated.
    Seat position first - then, speaker position. Always.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devg View Post
    @Jim, I have your DVD set for a while now. Is there anything in the book that is not covered in the video ?
    There are 202 tips in the book, so yes...

    But first, are you receiving the FREE Quarter Notes newsletters for GBS owners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devg View Post
    I am very much looking forward to the subwoofer setup series.
    There have been several installments already. Issue 14, 15, & 16.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devg View Post
    I don't have any ACK whatsoever, can I get my hands on earlier ?
    Sorry, unsure what you are asking.
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Dev - does it sound like the bass lingers longer than the rest of the music or is the bass just flabby and uncontrolled? Also, are the speakers spiked?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Mike, the answer seems to be both. For some freq, it lingers a bit longer than others. I have listened to it briefly yesterday but I guess the only way to tell for sure is to take measurements. What I can say now is I can hear the bass but its not strong enough compared to the rest of the audio spectrum.

    I have hardwood floors. Currently the speakers are not spiked. I am using Herbies speaker decoupling gliders. I had Stillpoints Ultra SS on them sometime back but there was some good bit of resonance coming from the lower part of the speaker base. Maybe I wasn't doing it right. I can put it back or try the stock cones one more time.

  19. #19
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Smith View Post
    Seat position first - then, speaker position. Always.
    So this is what confuses me - so help me understand. How can I hear the bass and soundstage without putting the speakers in the right place ? In other words, in order to determine the seat position, do I need to put the speakers in a predetermined location ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Smith View Post
    There are 202 tips in the book, so yes...
    Ok, sounds good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Smith View Post
    But first, are you receiving the FREE Quarter Notes newsletters for GBS owners?
    Nope. I bought the DVD set from Amazon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Smith View Post

    There have been several installments already. Issue 14, 15, & 16.



    Sorry, unsure what you are asking.
    I wasn't aware of all the installments. How can I get them ?

  20. #20
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Sorry!

    I am on a RoomPlay voicing session.

    Will reply on Friday when I return.
    DPT4ME - Dynamics, Presence & Tone for Musical Engagement; MBP (3) - stripped down for music only; Shunyata Omega & Sigma USBs; ISO REGEN w/short Curious USB links; Berkeley Alpha USB; Aqua La Scala II Optologic DAC; Schiit Yggdrasil - fully updated; Ayre Codex dac - updated; Pass Labs INT-60 integrated amp; Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE-2 preamp, Quicksilver Mono 120 amps w/Tung-Sol KT150s; Quicksilver Mid Mono amps w/Gold Lion KT77s; Fyne Audio 703s; Symposium Svelte Plus & Ultra Platforms; REL S-812 subwoofers; Duelund DCA12GA speaker cables; AV Room Service EVPs, Stein Music Harmonizers, Duelund DCA16GA & 20GA ICs; Shunyata Denali 6000S/V2; Tripp Lite PCs; Wyred 4 Sound power cords; AudioDharma cable cooker; dedicated custom room; various GIK & ASC room treatments; etc.

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  21. #21
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Quote Originally Posted by Devg View Post
    So this is what confuses me - so help me understand. How can I hear the bass and soundstage without putting the speakers in the right place ? In other words, in order to determine the seat position, do I need to put the speakers in a predetermined location ?
    I'd get them generally as far into the room as seems possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devg View Post
    Nope. I bought the DVD set from Amazon.
    Send me an e-mail requesting them and I will add you to the mail list and send you links to all of the 19 QNs so far.

    jim@getbettersound.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Devg View Post
    I wasn't aware of all the installments. How can I get them ?
    Its easiest to simply subscribe - there's a lot of interesting info.

    Here are links to the various issues in which I have contributed:

    http://www.psaudio.com/issue/issue-12/

    http://www.psaudio.com/issue/issue-14/

    http://www.psaudio.com/issue/issue-15/

    http://www.psaudio.com/issue/issue-16/

    As you can see the issue links are predictable - I am writing for Issue # 17 now.
    DPT4ME - Dynamics, Presence & Tone for Musical Engagement; MBP (3) - stripped down for music only; Shunyata Omega & Sigma USBs; ISO REGEN w/short Curious USB links; Berkeley Alpha USB; Aqua La Scala II Optologic DAC; Schiit Yggdrasil - fully updated; Ayre Codex dac - updated; Pass Labs INT-60 integrated amp; Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE-2 preamp, Quicksilver Mono 120 amps w/Tung-Sol KT150s; Quicksilver Mid Mono amps w/Gold Lion KT77s; Fyne Audio 703s; Symposium Svelte Plus & Ultra Platforms; REL S-812 subwoofers; Duelund DCA12GA speaker cables; AV Room Service EVPs, Stein Music Harmonizers, Duelund DCA16GA & 20GA ICs; Shunyata Denali 6000S/V2; Tripp Lite PCs; Wyred 4 Sound power cords; AudioDharma cable cooker; dedicated custom room; various GIK & ASC room treatments; etc.

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  22. #22
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Smith View Post
    I'd get them generally as far into the room as seems possible.



    Send me an e-mail requesting them and I will add you to the mail list and send you links to all of the 19 QNs so far.

    jim@getbettersound.com



    Its easiest to simply subscribe - there's a lot of interesting info.

    Here are links to the various issues in which I have contributed:

    http://www.psaudio.com/issue/issue-12/

    http://www.psaudio.com/issue/issue-14/

    http://www.psaudio.com/issue/issue-15/

    http://www.psaudio.com/issue/issue-16/

    As you can see the issue links are predictable - I am writing for Issue # 17 now.
    Thanks Jim. I have ordered the book and hopefully will get to read this week.

  23. #23
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    I did some quick REW measurement this morning after playing with the listening and speaker position. The bass has been a lot better but still not there. The speakers are very much into the room about 1/3rd of the length measuring from the back wall to the back of the spkr and my listening position is also about 1/3rd (a bit less) from the wall behind. In this position, all ratios of speaker to listening distance doesn't seem to apply but I felt has the best soundstage and bass.

    Here is the SPL graph with 1/12 smoothing.



    Here is the waterfall

    Attached Images Attached Images

  24. #24
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    Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Devg, have you tried starting over completely from the front wall with the speaker positioning?

    I believe you said you moved them back 1 foot from their original position.... but not sure what that equates to.

    I guess what I'm asking is have you started with the back of the loudspeakers a distance as close as you can to the front wall whether that be 1 foot or 2 foot and then go forward toward the listing position from there?

    Maybe your room and set up simply needs more coupling of the loudspeakers to the room?
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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeCh View Post
    Devg, have you tried starting over completely from the front wall with the speaker positioning?

    I believe you said you moved them back 1 foot from their original position.... but not sure what that equates to.

    I guess what I'm asking is have you started with the back of the loudspeakers a distance as close as you can to the front wall whether that be 1 foot or 2 foot and then go forward toward the listing position from there?

    Maybe your room and set up simply needs more coupling of the loudspeakers to the room?
    Mike, yes, I started from 1ft from the back wall but the sound is too harsh and hard. The bass is also more muddier. With this speaker, I haven’t heard any setup sounding good when they are close to back wall. The soundstage looses dimensionality and sounds flatter the closer the speakers are to the back wall.

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    Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Quote Originally Posted by Devg View Post
    Mike, yes, I started from 1ft from the back wall but the sound is too harsh and hard. The bass is also more muddier. With this speaker, I haven’t heard any setup sounding good when they are close to back wall. The soundstage looses dimensionality and sounds flatter the closer the speakers are to the back wall.
    OK thanks. Is this true without the bass traps in place? (and with).... playing with the placement of the loudspeakers starting at the front wall and moving toward the listening position?
    Avanti Audio

    arc sp-11 or ls27 | arc d130 | vpi classic 2 w/periphery ring w/Si3N4 bearing & sapphire thrust plate & 2x jmw 10.5i | phoenix engineering eagle & road runner | ortofon cadenza bronze, miyajima zero mono | sentec eq11 w/ Sylvania 5751 TMBP & CBS 7318 | auditorium a23 | canton ref 9 dc | 2x m&k v125 | oppo bdp-95 | chord qutest | lumin d1 & sbooster | avanti audio vivace cables

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    Re: Subwoofers for muddier bass

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeCh View Post
    OK thanks. Is this true without the bass traps in place? (and with).... playing with the placement of the loudspeakers starting at the front wall and moving toward the listening position?
    There is no bass traps in the room now. The problem with my room is the listening position changes with the speaker position. The listening position from the smoothest bass response when the speaker position, say 3ft from the back wall is no longer valid when the speaker position is say 5ft from the back wall. This is the exact question I asked Jim in the earlier post and he suggested to move the speaker as far away from the back as possible. My speaker designer, Robert, suggest to first find the speaker position and the decide the listening position which is opposite of what Jim suggests but I find they are kind of chicken-egg problem

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