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May 23, 2019, 09:31 PM #1
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Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
It used to be that when investing in a system the recommendation was to allocate 50% to speakers and 50% to the rest. Maybe that was a good recommendation when we were talking analog. But now that many people are forgoing analog for digital does that ratio make sense?
I have been reading about blind test of DACs where testers have a hard time differentiating very cheap DACs from much more expensive ones.
So does all of it means that the transducers (i.e., speakers) is where the big money should be spent?
On a digital system, what about?
75% speakers
25% rest
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May 23, 2019, 10:00 PM #2
Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
Personally, I feel the source is irrelevant, as long as it is decent. How much you spend on speakers is up to you, but, generally speaking, better speakers cost more. In fact, even inexpensive electronics will sound better with good speakers. Don’t forget cables (power, interconnect, speaker) also have a big influence on the sound.
Bud
Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD
Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR for source, Denali 2000 (2) for amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson four shelf maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits.
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May 23, 2019, 10:44 PM #3
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Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
I personally do not like rules of thumb like that. Too many variables for it ever to be close to accurate. And, I disagree with the rule.
I'd welcome the blind test myself. If you can't tell the difference between good digital versus entry level you shouldn't be spending much on stereo gear at either end. There's even a difference in rendering and transports. Your internet speed and quality makes a difference in sound.
See if you follow this logic. It starts with your source, if any detail is left there at the source, nothing, you do downstream, including expensive speakers, will allow you to hear that lost detail.
Once you have a capable source you want to maintain the signal throughout your system until it reaches your ears. So it's not a front vs speaker thing, it's a system thing, and, that should include room treatments.Aurender ACS10 w/Audioquest Diamond USB, Esoteric N05xd
Mark Levinson #526, 534 & JBL 4367's
Clearaudio Performance DC w/Maestro cart
Clarus Concerto & their Crimson cables
HT: Marantz AV8003, Linn 5125, JBL SAM3ha, Revel s30,
SVS PC13 Ultra
Transparent, Analysis Plus & Tributaries. PS Audio filtering
Sony XBR-75X940D & BDP
Parasound P6, MBL 8006b, Artisan speakers/subwoofer
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May 23, 2019, 11:43 PM #4
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Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
I have done too many dac shoot outs and comparisons to say that they all sound alike. Some sound dramatically different and others sound similar in some but not all respects. None of the sub $1K DAC's that I have heard have the resolution, detail and sound stage of more expensive DAC's. All of the DAC's that I have heard from $1500 to $10K sound remarkably different.
About the only thing that I can say is that I have heard some cheaper higher end DAC's sound better than DAC's costing twice as much.My Gear- Mains System-Pass X250 amp, BAT VK-51se preamp, Luxman DA-06 DAC, Magnepan 1.6's, Thorens TD-145 TT, Dual Martin Logan Subs, Vintage Luxman T-110 Tuner, Cables-WW Platinum 7 USB, Cardas Parsec XLR, AQ Columbia DBS 72v XLR, Belden 8402 XLR.
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May 24, 2019, 12:50 AM #5
Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
In reading blind tests like this, it is important to note what downstream components they have, and whether you trust the testers are audiophiles (so they would probably have the relevant listening skills) or not.
If 75% of the money is spent on speakers, how much money are you going to spend on the amplifier?Peter Lie
LUMIN Firmware Lead
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May 24, 2019, 08:44 AM #6
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May 24, 2019, 10:11 AM #7
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Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
I still like the 1/3 rule.....1/3 speakers, 1/3 amp, 1/3 preamp, 1/3 cables, 1/3 phono, 1/3 phono amp.
Thomas Einstein PhD...math.
Not.
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May 24, 2019, 10:37 AM #8
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May 24, 2019, 11:30 AM #9
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Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
You would be amazed at how well it can sound actually. A preamp, DAC, and streamer can coexist in ONE single device (I am using one right now). And well-built cables don't have to be esoteric stuff.
The idea is that even if we take at face value that "everything" matters, given a budget, we should put more money where it matters the most: the speakers. I also believe that proper room set up (speaker and furniture location, speaker/room interaction including digital room correction) is much more cost effective than spending thousands on esoteric cables.
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May 24, 2019, 11:49 AM #10
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Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
I'm currently at a small percentage of system cost on speakers - roughly 20%. That's even without any digital source to speak of (vinyl only). But it's easily the most crucial piece to "get right" and find a sound you love that also works well in your room. I certainly would't discourage someone from a 75% speaker allocation, as that's (close to) how I started out when I stretched for Tannoy Kensington SE several years ago. You can fill in with better gear as time & budget permits. If you choose well it can scale with your system for a very long time. And that's a smart play, because selling used speakers is VERY HARD, and does not yield as good a return as other components. Not to mention it's likely that your backing gear will not be an optimal match for two set speakers in a row - i.e. start all over again!
The issue of various DAC's sounding so much more alike is what I grappled with in the 2000s - but at the budget and medium-tier levels. From what I've heard lately I'd actually guess that there's a lot MORE diversity in the sound of DACs these days, and they've certainly made very large sonic strides in the digital world (at all tiers). I have to admit I'm extremely impressed by the Yggdrasil 2 I now use in my Stax system. I had my fun being a vinyl snob, but man digital is pretty damn cool these days.
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May 25, 2019, 09:04 AM #11
Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
I am not sure you will end up with a system you truly love based on %.
I have heard inexpensive speakers with expensive amps sound amazing. I have heard more expensive speakers with the same amps not sound hugely different.
For me I found speakers that I truly enjoyed the sound of. From there find amps, S.S. or tubes based on your liking, save and spend to your comfort level. I would do the same with with each piece of equipment.
You probably would not dress your self saying 50% on a shirt, 30% on pants, 5% each on belt and underwear and 10% on shoes. :-)Synology 1019D+ - SGC Sonictransporter I9 w Roon/HQ Player- UltraRendu- PBD Stream IF to Playback Designs MPS5 via fiber optic - ARC 40th Anniversary Pre - ARC 610 T's - Martin Logan CLX's - 4 Martin Logan Depth i Subs - Shunyata Hydra, DIY PCOCC interconnects, speaker cables and power cords with Furutech terminations. Blue Jeans CAT 6's. Acoustically treated room with one permanent chair.
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May 25, 2019, 12:38 PM #12
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May 25, 2019, 12:41 PM #13
Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
In my totally biased opinion, voicing the system to the room is vastly more effective than changing to any component at any price. And generally, it's a fraction of the price for new components these days.
With having done somewhere around a thousand systems, I've never seen it be otherwise.
IMO & IMEDPT4ME - Dynamics, Presence & Tone for Musical Engagement; MBP (3) - stripped down for music only; Shunyata Omega & Sigma USBs; ISO REGEN w/short Curious USB links; Berkeley Alpha USB; Aqua La Scala II Optologic DAC; Schiit Yggdrasil - fully updated; Ayre Codex dac - updated; Pass Labs INT-60 integrated amp; Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE-2 preamp, Quicksilver Mono 120 amps w/Tung-Sol KT150s; Quicksilver Mid Mono amps w/Gold Lion KT77s; Fyne Audio 703s; Symposium Svelte Plus & Ultra Platforms; REL S-812 subwoofers; Duelund DCA12GA speaker cables; AV Room Service EVPs, Stein Music Harmonizers, Duelund DCA16GA & 20GA ICs; Shunyata Denali 6000S/V2; Tripp Lite PCs; Wyred 4 Sound power cords; AudioDharma cable cooker; dedicated custom room; various GIK & ASC room treatments; etc.
www.getbettersound.com
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May 25, 2019, 01:51 PM #14
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May 25, 2019, 03:56 PM #15
Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
Focal Sopra 2, MC452, C2300, MCD1100, MT2 w/Hana SL, HRS, Bel Canto Stream, Schiit Yggy, AQ Niagara 5000 w/Hurricanes, WW Silver 7’s.
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May 25, 2019, 04:07 PM #16
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Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
I'm at 16 % on speakers.
Amplification 41 %
Digital rig 9 %
(CD transport to DAC)
Cables 14 %
Acoustics 20 %
(rough calculations)
The issue of various DAC's sounding so much more alike is what I I have to admit I'm extremely impressed by the Yggdrasil 2 I now use in my Stax system. I had my fun being a vinyl snob, but man digital is pretty damn cool these days.Simaudio Moon Neo 260 DT CD Transport / MIT SL-Matrix Plus AES/EBU digital cable / Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 DAC / Octave HP 700 preamp / Octave RE 320 stereo amp with Super Black Box / Reference 3A Reflector monitors on Sound Anchors Signature Stands / dual JL Audio Fathom 112 v2 subwoofers on ASC SubTraps / ZenWave Audio D4 and SMSG cables / Acoustic treatment: tube traps, Tri-panels, window plugs, ceiling diffusers (all ASC), large absorbing panels (Acoustics First), diverse carpets chosen for acoustic properties: wool, polypropylene basket-weave
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May 25, 2019, 04:17 PM #17
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Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
I forgot my subwoofers in above calculations. Never mind.
Simaudio Moon Neo 260 DT CD Transport / MIT SL-Matrix Plus AES/EBU digital cable / Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 DAC / Octave HP 700 preamp / Octave RE 320 stereo amp with Super Black Box / Reference 3A Reflector monitors on Sound Anchors Signature Stands / dual JL Audio Fathom 112 v2 subwoofers on ASC SubTraps / ZenWave Audio D4 and SMSG cables / Acoustic treatment: tube traps, Tri-panels, window plugs, ceiling diffusers (all ASC), large absorbing panels (Acoustics First), diverse carpets chosen for acoustic properties: wool, polypropylene basket-weave
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May 25, 2019, 04:58 PM #18
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May 25, 2019, 05:16 PM #19
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May 25, 2019, 05:58 PM #20
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May 25, 2019, 07:30 PM #21
Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
I am not sure how the dollar ratios come out but:
-Get the best speakers that you like and will work in your room.
-Next spend your money on the amp(s) that will get the most out of your speakers.
-Allocate your source funds based on your preference for digital or analog. Possibly depending on the one you will use the most.
-Tweak away with cables etc that get you closer to what you want to hear our of your system.Jim
D'Agostino Momentum M-400's MxV’s & HD Pre-amp
Wilson Alexandria X2 Series 2 speakers
Digital: dCS Vivaldi APEX DAC, Clock & Upsampler
Analog: SME 20/3 with Esoteric E-03 Phono
Transparent Opus Speaker Cable & Interconnects & Opus Power Cords
Power Cords on Digital: Shunyata
Power Conditioner - Shunyata Everest
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May 25, 2019, 08:01 PM #22
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May 25, 2019, 08:06 PM #23
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May 25, 2019, 08:51 PM #24
Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
Borresen Acoustics Loudspeakers, Borresen Model 01 Compact monitor loudspeakers with Ansuz Darkz T2s Supreme resonance control, Audio Video Manufaktur GmbH (AVM) Inspiration amplifier & streamer, Innuos Zen MKII music server, Ansuz Acoustics cables & accessories. Please visit my system thread hosted on Audioshark for more details. Disclosure: The author is materially connected to Ansuz, Aavik & Borresen Acoustics via friendship with an owner.
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May 25, 2019, 09:36 PM #25
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Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
A problem many audiophiles end up faced with after a purchase. It sounded and looked good at the dealer's and you can afford it only to get it home and find out it overloads your room or won't work where you "need" to position it. A really difficult problem to correct after the fact and a mistake that can be expensive.
Main - JVC QL-Y7/Denon DL-301 Mk II, Gold Note PH-10, Jays CDT3 Mk3 , Auralic Aries G2.2, Holo May KTE, Supratek Cabernet, Kinki Studio EX-B7 monoblocks, Verity Audio Otello, (2) Rythmik F12SE, Audio Envy IC, SC & PC's, Triode Wire Lab PC's, Inakustik USB and I2S, (2) Puritan Audio Labs PSM-156 with Groundmaster City, Timbernation rack
Family Room - Oppo UDP-203, Auralic Aries, Aqua La Voce S3, Kinki Studio EX-M1+, Nola KO, (2) Rythmik F-12G, Wireworld SC & IC's, Neotech PC's, SurgeX SA-1810
Greenville, SC- Jays CDT2 Mk 3, Auralic Aries G1, Holo Spring 3 KTE, Supratek Chardonnay, Odyssey Audio Kismet Reference, Rosso Fiorentino Volterra 2, (2) RSL Speedwoofers, iFi Audio Power Station, Wireworld IC's, Inakustik USB and I2s, Triode Wire Lab SC, Triode Wire Lab PC's, Furutech NCF Clear Line, Timbernation rack.
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May 26, 2019, 07:56 AM #26
Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
Vivid Audio - Burmester - Hegel - Marantz - Oppo - Pioneer 60" - Wireworld
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May 26, 2019, 08:00 AM #27
Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
Agree completely that it’s a system thing. “...and that should include room treatments”, and clean power, proper speaker setup, equipment isolation, equipment compatibility...everything matters.
And as you state, it’s really about balance since the overall performance is only as good as the weakest link in the chain.
In terms of allocating budget, room treatments and speaker setup have provided the largest performance gain per dollar at least in my experience.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkRockport Lyra speakers; TotalDac Amp-1 mono blocks; four box CH Precision L1/X1 pre/power supply monos; CH precision P1/X1 phono/power supply; TotalDac d1-driver monos; Pacific Microsonics Model 2 DAC; TotalDac d1-12 MkII DAC with two reclockers; Kodo The Beat Turnatable with LT Schroder magnesium tonearm and Lyra Atlas cart; Taiko Extreme server; Kalista Dreamplayer CD Transport; Taiko Audio Daiza Platforms; Nordost Odin2 Power Cords and Analog ICs; 512 Engineering/Tim Marutani Balanced Transformers (30 amp for sources; 50 amp for amps); Rives designed dedicated room.
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May 26, 2019, 09:35 AM #28
Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
No one is ever going to agree on percentages of the total budget to allocate on the piece parts of a stereo system so let's throw percentages out of the audiophile window. What makes the biggest difference in the sound you hear from your system? Transducers. If your system only has one source and the source is digital, speakers will have the greatest affect on your sound quality. If you play LPs and digital, speakers and cartridges are the two transducers that will most affect your sound quality. Speakers are the "meat" of your system and pretty much everything else is spices added to the recipe to flavor the sound to your liking. You just need to be careful that you don't choose a cut of meat that you actually dislike because no amount of spices is going to change the basic taste.
In summary, buy the best sounding speakers to your ears that you can afford and make damn sure you buy an amp that can drive them properly. That is the foundation of your system that everything else will build on.Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.
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May 26, 2019, 12:34 PM #29
Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
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May 26, 2019, 10:21 PM #30
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Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
What does drive them properly mean? Surely not just being up to the task of providing current. It's the quality of the signal that matters, and the better your speakers the more they will reveal of upstream signal quality. The most highly resolving speakers will be underused if the incoming signal does not have the resolution. It's not just spices and flavor, it's signal integrity. Both my preamp and power amp each cost more than my main speakers, and the set-up is worth it.
Simaudio Moon Neo 260 DT CD Transport / MIT SL-Matrix Plus AES/EBU digital cable / Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 DAC / Octave HP 700 preamp / Octave RE 320 stereo amp with Super Black Box / Reference 3A Reflector monitors on Sound Anchors Signature Stands / dual JL Audio Fathom 112 v2 subwoofers on ASC SubTraps / ZenWave Audio D4 and SMSG cables / Acoustic treatment: tube traps, Tri-panels, window plugs, ceiling diffusers (all ASC), large absorbing panels (Acoustics First), diverse carpets chosen for acoustic properties: wool, polypropylene basket-weave
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May 26, 2019, 10:30 PM #31
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Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
I'm not going to disagree , however, I've been on the merry-go-round more times than I want to admit, one thing I learned, any component has the potential to transform your system. Sometimes a little, sometimes a lot.
I had one such experience yesterday, a guy put another streamer in place of this NAD I'm using, I was astonished, just a streamer and my system sounded totally different.
There's more going on with the handling of digital than we realize.
Aurender ACS10 w/Audioquest Diamond USB, Esoteric N05xd
Mark Levinson #526, 534 & JBL 4367's
Clearaudio Performance DC w/Maestro cart
Clarus Concerto & their Crimson cables
HT: Marantz AV8003, Linn 5125, JBL SAM3ha, Revel s30,
SVS PC13 Ultra
Transparent, Analysis Plus & Tributaries. PS Audio filtering
Sony XBR-75X940D & BDP
Parasound P6, MBL 8006b, Artisan speakers/subwoofer
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May 27, 2019, 09:54 AM #32
Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
Drive them properly is a simple concept Al and it's just not the quality of the signal that matters. Your "highly resolving speakers" just wont be "underused" with the wrong amp, they will be abused with the wrong amp. For example, don't try and drive a pair of low impedance 86dB sensitivity speakers with a 3 watt amp off of an 8 ohm tap. You have to find an amplifier you like that matches to the speakers you own or want to buy. Pretty simple. If you purchase an amp that absolutely can't drive your speakers because the load impedance is a mismatch and the amp lacks the power to drive the speakers to the levels you like to listen to, your upstream "signal integrity" is all for naught because it just got hosed at the amp/speaker junction.
Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.
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May 27, 2019, 10:48 AM #33
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Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
Sure, Mark, these are basics, but are not what I meant. There are amps perfectly capable of driving my speakers but with lesser signal quality. A $ 700 Schiit Vidar amp suffices, and it's astonishingly good too.
By the way, my speakers are 92 dB sensitive two-way monitors and driven by an amp that puts out 100 W into 8 Ohms, my speakers' impedance (130 W into 4 Ohms). Total overkill, as I like it.Simaudio Moon Neo 260 DT CD Transport / MIT SL-Matrix Plus AES/EBU digital cable / Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 DAC / Octave HP 700 preamp / Octave RE 320 stereo amp with Super Black Box / Reference 3A Reflector monitors on Sound Anchors Signature Stands / dual JL Audio Fathom 112 v2 subwoofers on ASC SubTraps / ZenWave Audio D4 and SMSG cables / Acoustic treatment: tube traps, Tri-panels, window plugs, ceiling diffusers (all ASC), large absorbing panels (Acoustics First), diverse carpets chosen for acoustic properties: wool, polypropylene basket-weave
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May 27, 2019, 01:15 PM #34
Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
Electrical signal "quality" is measured in dollars eh? They sure don't teach that in EE school.
I see your speakers have the same sensitivity "rating" as the BE model. Hmmm. Well, seems you have plenty of power regardless.
You may find this interesting. Or not.
Anyway, happy Memorial, enjoy some tunes.
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May 27, 2019, 03:00 PM #35
Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
I think the whole per type of component thing is kind of silly. Sure in the perfect world this might come into play. In the real world many times you grab the component that becomes available to you. I agree that speakers are important, but certainly not by budget %. I have heard some very expensive speakers that I did not like, some I have liked but those really need a high level amp. My buddies high level MBL are amazing but are very hard to drive, for example....
I have always liked KEF speakers; however I could not afford the Blade 2, , or the Reference. Therefore I got the next closes thing, the R series (KEF calls them the mini References, a direct trickle down from the Blades) which are almost a quarter the price of the Reference 3 because they build them in their Chinese factory; very close in performance (a friend owns the Reference 3 which I have compared). So I could get a KEF that I enjoy with retail about $3800.
Digital is very important to me and from a lot of research and definitely confirmed in my listening, I believe that DACs that do not use off the shelf chips (ESS, BurrBrown, AKM, etc.) perform better. Also DSD was very important to me. I could not afford MSB, Lampi, dCS, etc., so I was considering the PS Audio DirectStream. However I found the T+A instead. Granted they use BurrBrown for PCM but they make their own 1-bit processors for DSD, which is all that matters since I am running HQPlayer.
Therefore my DAC retails for more than the speakers but works beautifully in the system.
Same with my amps. The Audio Mirrors are normally $5000 plus I got about a grand in tubes I roll through them. The T+A retails just a tad under the speakers. Therefore the amplifiers retail for more.
My computer/music server, W4S Recovery, and software cost more then the speakers.
The power conditioner and cables are priced quite a bit higher also.
So the speakers are about 1/6 the price of the system but match very nicely and are certainly not being outclassed by the rest of the system!
If I were using the percentage that I see discussed here and elsewhere I would have gotten something like the Blade 2's and then have to use something like Schitt, NuPrime, Benchmark, W4S standard models. All good but none that I would never consider using them with Blade 2's. I believe my configuration is better.McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105
“One of the great challenges in life is knowing enough to think you're right but not enough to know you're wrong”
"You can't use reason to convince anyone out of an argument that they didn't use reason to get into"
― Neil deGrasse Tyson
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May 27, 2019, 04:10 PM #36
Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
This once again illustrates how unique and varied individual perception of audio gear can be. I've done extensive listening to the KEF lineup, including their previous and current R series as well as their Reference series. This has included a wide variety of supporting gear including both tube and solid state electronics as well as with digital and analog sources. To my perception while the R series offer a solid value and reasonable performance they don't engage me with the music at anywhere near the level which the Reference series does. The Reference series is so much more refined and captivating to my senses that after hearing them the R series just leave me wanting more.
There are a lot of obvious similarities in driver design and configuration between the KEF R and Reference series, but their implementation and attention to detail are at different levels as would be expected given the large differential in their pricing. I think it's great that their R series offers KEF's unique technology at a price that makes them more widely accessible than can be provided by the Reference series, and Randy is certainly not alone in finding the high value that the R series provides and enjoying their many fine attributes.
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May 27, 2019, 04:26 PM #37
Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
I certainly agree that the Reference are more refined, but the R series are close for about 1/4 the price. My point is holding with the percentage thing I would have to get Ref 5's or Blade 2's and much lower other gear. In my view the R's were good enough to allow for better gear elsewhere and the over all system is better. I do eventually want to end up with the Refs or Blades, but my point was that my overall system is better ignoring the percentage formula.
The other point is that getting something like the Blade 2's is a large amount in a one-time purchase and probably would have been so cost prohibited that I probably would not have been able to get as deep into this hobby as I have been able to.McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105
“One of the great challenges in life is knowing enough to think you're right but not enough to know you're wrong”
"You can't use reason to convince anyone out of an argument that they didn't use reason to get into"
― Neil deGrasse Tyson
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May 27, 2019, 07:17 PM #38
Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
So to be clear Randy, you had the Ref 5s in your room with "lower" (TBD) gear, compared to current setup and your current "higher" system outputting R700 soundwaves, sounded better??
Interesting.
Btw, at our last club meet last weekend, gent had a simple, secondary much "lower" system with R500s in his family room. Other than the very top (airless) end, I preferred it to his much, much "higher" main system. Based on the soundwaves. Go figure
cheers,
AJ
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May 27, 2019, 09:26 PM #39
Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
I found myself nodding in agreement with this. A good friend of mine works for a KEF distributor and retailer (the two often go hand in hand in Asia) and I’ve spent many enjoyable hours in his store listening to products ranging from the LS-50 through to the Blades and more rarely the Muon. At the lower end of the R-range I actually prefer the LS-50 as I found it more resolving and somewhat more cohesive and smoother through the mid-range. An LS-50 paired with a reasonably high powered tube amplifier of good quality actually makes for an awesome small audio system (IMHO).
As earlier mentioned my rule of thumb has been to allocate the greatest percentage of a system budget to the loudspeakers. For a typical digital system loudspeakers combined with how they interact with the listening space make (by far) the biggest difference in the sound you finally hear. Further, they typically have higher levels of distortion than modern well designed electronics.Borresen Acoustics Loudspeakers, Borresen Model 01 Compact monitor loudspeakers with Ansuz Darkz T2s Supreme resonance control, Audio Video Manufaktur GmbH (AVM) Inspiration amplifier & streamer, Innuos Zen MKII music server, Ansuz Acoustics cables & accessories. Please visit my system thread hosted on Audioshark for more details. Disclosure: The author is materially connected to Ansuz, Aavik & Borresen Acoustics via friendship with an owner.
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May 28, 2019, 01:53 AM #40
Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
No AJ, I did not say I had the Ref 5's in my room with lower gear, I said I believe I would have to have either the Blades or the Ref 5 with lower equipment such as Schitt, NuPrime, etc., to keep in the same budget and keep that percentage cost of speakers versus the the gear... in my view the combo I have, with the better digital setup in server, software, DAC, better sounding preamp, better amplifiers (in my view) works better to keep in the same budget using the R series... instead of putting a vast majority of my money into speakers. And the other issue I mentioned was a single purchase of that amount would probably have been cost prohibited, if for no other reason then my wife's view...
As I have seen from several respondents in various threads and forums, the R series plays way above it's price point. While I will not in any way say they can stay with the Ref's I will say they are pretty darn good and allow for a better over all system.McIntosh C49, MC152, MR85, R778 | T+A DAC 8 DSD | KEF LS50 Meta w/S2, KC62 (x2) | Rega RP8, Ania Pro, NEO PSU | Technics SL-1500C | Audio Technica VM750ML | Hexmat Eclipse, Yellow Bird, Molekula, Molekula Mini | Pro-Ject VC-E | Falcon NW PC Server (Roon Core & HQPlayer) | Microsoft Surface Pro 6 (Roon Controller) | Abyss Diana Phi | Schiit Jotunheim 2 | Astell&Kern SE200 | Oppo BDP105
“One of the great challenges in life is knowing enough to think you're right but not enough to know you're wrong”
"You can't use reason to convince anyone out of an argument that they didn't use reason to get into"
― Neil deGrasse Tyson
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May 28, 2019, 08:38 AM #41
Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
Ok, it seems like Al, you directly correlate >price to "better". That's fine, it's all personal preference, much like the sound of speakers. As I stated previously, I actually preferred the sound of the R500 hooked to a ummm, "lower" system, with the exception of the top end, to a much, much "better" system in the house. YMMV.
cheers,
AJ
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May 28, 2019, 08:55 AM #42
Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
Clearly this comes to personal preference and where one falls on certain scales https://www.pnas.org/content/105/3/1050
Here is an interesting tidbit. There is a new line of speakers that have near unanimously been regarded as (one of) "Best of show" by every online site I've seen them mentioned on (yes, this one too), all by who directly correlate price="quality/good/etc". Won't mention names, but I instantly recognized the amp/dac that was driving them, despite the "disguise" for intended audiophiles. I can buy those amp/dacs for <$700 as a manufacturer.
However, as I mentioned in first post, we do not listen blind at home. As such, YMMV.
cheers,
AJ
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May 28, 2019, 09:23 AM #43
Re: Is it Time To Allocate More Money To Speakers on a Digital set up?
Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.
Reviewer for Positive Feedback
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May 29, 2019, 09:16 AM #44
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