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  1. #351
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by UltraFast69 View Post
    Seems like you have it down knowing your options, and for sure try running cable from the router to the switch.

    And if possible, keep your Mainz D8 Distributor and Cable!

    Keep us posted...
    I've been downsizing. I had a guilty conscience spending all that money.

    I replaced an Ansuz Mainz8 DTC with the D8 and 3 Ansuz DTC PC's with Ansuz D2 PC's. I'm disposing a couple of Ansuz Digitalz DTC's and an Ansuz DTC USB cable. My Aavik Integrated amp has been replaced by a Naim Nova. I'd sold my Aurender N10 but I missed it so I bought a Lumin X1/L1 combo to replace it.

    I replaced Raidho XT-2's with the Harbeth's (my wife's favorite speaker and mine too).

    The cable I'd use to connect to the router is currently being used to connect a Naim Mu-So to the network switch. Since I bought the Nova I don't need the Mu-So now.
    Bud<br>

    AAVIK: S-280 Streamer, D-280 DAC, I-280 Integrated Amplifier]
    NAIM: Atom HE Headphone Amp, Superlumina Speaker Cables, Power Cables
    HARBETH: 30.2 40th Anniversary Speakers
    FOCAL:: Utopia Headphones
    ANSUZ: C2 Power Cable, A2 Power Distributor, D2 Ethernet Cables, D2 PowerSwitch, D2 Interconnect
    NORDOST: Heimdall 2 Ethernet and Power Cables
    QUADRASPIRE: SVT Equipment Stand
    SKYLAN: Speaker Stands
    UPTONE:Linear Power Supply
    DANACABLE:: Headphone cables

  2. #352
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by Leatherneck View Post
    I've been downsizing. I had a guilty conscience spending all that money.

    I replaced an Ansuz Mainz8 DTC with the D8 and 3 Ansuz DTC PC's with Ansuz D2 PC's. I'm disposing a couple of Ansuz Digitalz DTC's and an Ansuz DTC USB cable. My Aavik Integrated amp has been replaced by a Naim Nova. I'd sold my Aurender N10 but I missed it so I bought a Lumin X1/L1 combo to replace it.

    I replaced Raidho XT-2's with the Harbeth's (my wife's favorite speaker and mine too).

    The cable I'd use to connect to the router is currently being used to connect a Naim Mu-So to the network switch. Since I bought the Nova I don't need the Mu-So now.
    Congrats on your new Harbeth’s. Wonderful speakers. Here is our new C7 Anniversary Speakers being driven by Viva.

    https://youtu.be/MytKtPXsfLQ


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by joeinid; June 3, 2019 at 05:16 PM.
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
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  3. #353
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Congrats on your new Harbeth’s. Wonderful speakers. Here is our new C7 Anniversary Speakers being driven by Viva.

    https://youtu.be/MytKtPXsfLQ


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Just checked out the video and left a comment, Mike! Thanks for posting it to YT. Man, I want a pair of Harbeths so bad....urrrgg...

  4. #354
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    Just checked out the video and left a comment, Mike! Thanks for posting it to YT. Man, I want a pair of Harbeths so bad....urrrgg...
    It's all part of Mike's evil intentions which end up increasing our listening pleasure! Hope you're able to scratch that itch soon!

  5. #355
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by audio.bill View Post
    It's all part of Mike's evil intentions which end up increasing our listening pleasure! Hope you're able to scratch that itch soon!
    GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  6. #356

    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by Leatherneck View Post
    Thanks for the advice.

    I'm going wireless from my router to an Apple Airport Express. From there I'll use one of my Haimdall 2's to the AQVox switch and then another H2 to the Giigafoil. I"ve got a new Ansuz D2 Ethernet cable on the way that will go from there to the Lumin X1. I have an Ansuz A2 to go from the switch to a Naim Nova and an Ansuz X1 to go from the switch to a Lumin L1 (NAS Library).

    When everything arrives I'll try different configurations. I have the option of running an Ethernet cable directly from the Apple router to the switch but the Airport Express has worked perfectly so far.
    Forgive me, the X1 has a fiber cable input which has a lot of plusses . Fiber provides very good isolation with common mode noise totally killed off when partnered with a Fiber Media Converter (FMC) with a linear power supply.

    Recommend : AQVOX switch -> Any CATx -> FMC -> Single mode fiber -> Lumin X1. There's no restriction on the length of fiber, it can run to several miles. The Gigafoil can be used between the switch and the CATx cable, or upstream whichever works best.

  7. #357
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by Rms View Post
    Forgive me, the X1 has a fiber cable input which has a lot of plusses . Fiber provides very good isolation with common mode noise totally killed off when partnered with a Fiber Media Converter (FMC) with a linear power supply.

    Recommend : AQVOX switch -> Any CATx -> FMC -> Single mode fiber -> Lumin X1. There's no restriction on the length of fiber, it can run to several miles. The Gigafoil can be used between the switch and the CATx cable, or upstream whichever works best.
    I'm doing that right now with my Cisco switch. I've also gone directly from the Cisco switch to the X1 w/o an FMC. I don't want to fool with an FMC/power block so I bought the Ansuz D2.

    I'm thinking of going fiber from the router to the switch. Probably won't work with my Apple router.

    Bud
    Bud<br>

    AAVIK: S-280 Streamer, D-280 DAC, I-280 Integrated Amplifier]
    NAIM: Atom HE Headphone Amp, Superlumina Speaker Cables, Power Cables
    HARBETH: 30.2 40th Anniversary Speakers
    FOCAL:: Utopia Headphones
    ANSUZ: C2 Power Cable, A2 Power Distributor, D2 Ethernet Cables, D2 PowerSwitch, D2 Interconnect
    NORDOST: Heimdall 2 Ethernet and Power Cables
    QUADRASPIRE: SVT Equipment Stand
    SKYLAN: Speaker Stands
    UPTONE:Linear Power Supply
    DANACABLE:: Headphone cables

  8. #358
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by Rms View Post
    Forgive me, the X1 has a fiber cable input which has a lot of plusses . Fiber provides very good isolation with common mode noise totally killed off when partnered with a Fiber Media Converter (FMC) with a linear power supply.

    Recommend : AQVOX switch -> Any CATx -> FMC -> Single mode fiber -> Lumin X1. There's no restriction on the length of fiber, it can run to several miles. The Gigafoil can be used between the switch and the CATx cable, or upstream whichever works best.
    Hi there -

    Here’s where I get lost, as I’m not familiar with a FMC, and perhaps you can help answer.

    Does the FMC and Gigafoil do the same thing?

    And because Leatherneck has a Fiber connection in his Lumin he gets to eliminate one of the FMC boxes under your example?





    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Source Analog: Kuzma Stabi R w/4point 11 arm | Kuzma 50 Cartridge
    Source Digital: Aurender N10 | Brinkmann Nyquist MK II
    Amplification: Dan D’Agostino Momentum HD and M400’s | Boulder 508
    Speakers: Wilson Alexias
    Cabling: Nordost Leif, Norse, V2 and Odin
    Power and Isolation: Audio-Ultra Home & Room Power Foundation Performance Package with StromTank S1000 | HRS









  9. #359
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    Post Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by UltraFast69 View Post
    Hi there -

    Here’s where I get lost, as I’m not familiar with a FMC, and perhaps you can help answer.

    Does the FMC and Gigafoil do the same thing?

    And because Leatherneck has a Fiber connection in his Lumin he gets to eliminate one of the FMC boxes under your example?





    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    An FMC is an Ethernet media converter that converts RJ45 Ethernet media to/from SC Fiber. Both my X1 and my Cisco switch support SFP ports that accept Gigabit SFP transceivers that produce Fiber output. The SFP transceivers are small units that plug into the SFP ports and accept LC Fiber cable. In my case, I have SFP transceivers plugged into the Cisco and X1 which permits me to connect the two devices with a $27 Fiber cable. The resulting sound is very quiet and produces more depth than normal Ethernet cable. RJ45 is sometimes called copper to differentiate from Fiber.

    In cases where a device does not support SFP ports, you can use two FMC media converters connected with Fiber cable and provides R-J45 ports on both ends.

    The Gigafoil is a filter for Ethernet networks. It uses Fiber to accomplish this. I have one on order that I plan to use between my switch and my X1. I also have an AQVOX switch on order that's somewhere between Germany and Arizona. There is nothing wrong with my Cisco switch. It was recommended by our friend from Lumin and supports both R45J Ethernet and has two SFP ports as well. IMO that's worth more than $100 because it eliminates the need to buy two FMC modules.

    The cost of the hardware to support Fiber is low. FMC modules cost less than $60 on Amazon. SFP transceivers are $10 to $15. Fiber cable is dirt cheap.

    There may be some errors in my description of things but I've only been exposed to this technology recently.
    Bud<br>

    AAVIK: S-280 Streamer, D-280 DAC, I-280 Integrated Amplifier]
    NAIM: Atom HE Headphone Amp, Superlumina Speaker Cables, Power Cables
    HARBETH: 30.2 40th Anniversary Speakers
    FOCAL:: Utopia Headphones
    ANSUZ: C2 Power Cable, A2 Power Distributor, D2 Ethernet Cables, D2 PowerSwitch, D2 Interconnect
    NORDOST: Heimdall 2 Ethernet and Power Cables
    QUADRASPIRE: SVT Equipment Stand
    SKYLAN: Speaker Stands
    UPTONE:Linear Power Supply
    DANACABLE:: Headphone cables

  10. #360
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Thanks for commenting, I was not clear.

    I totally understand and agree what you indicated, I am trying to learn if the FMC and Gigafoil both operate in a similar manner by taking a signal and while converting the signal the filtering takes place.

    I don’t know if ones better then the other, and from a setup point of view there are trade offs.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Source Analog: Kuzma Stabi R w/4point 11 arm | Kuzma 50 Cartridge
    Source Digital: Aurender N10 | Brinkmann Nyquist MK II
    Amplification: Dan D’Agostino Momentum HD and M400’s | Boulder 508
    Speakers: Wilson Alexias
    Cabling: Nordost Leif, Norse, V2 and Odin
    Power and Isolation: Audio-Ultra Home & Room Power Foundation Performance Package with StromTank S1000 | HRS









  11. #361
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    I see your point. They have to do media conversions to go from copper to fiber and then back to copper. It's passing the media through Fiber cables that provides the benefits. It seems very quiet and smooth with more depth than RJ45. I'll compare the Gigafoil with using fiber between my switch and X1.
    Bud<br>

    AAVIK: S-280 Streamer, D-280 DAC, I-280 Integrated Amplifier]
    NAIM: Atom HE Headphone Amp, Superlumina Speaker Cables, Power Cables
    HARBETH: 30.2 40th Anniversary Speakers
    FOCAL:: Utopia Headphones
    ANSUZ: C2 Power Cable, A2 Power Distributor, D2 Ethernet Cables, D2 PowerSwitch, D2 Interconnect
    NORDOST: Heimdall 2 Ethernet and Power Cables
    QUADRASPIRE: SVT Equipment Stand
    SKYLAN: Speaker Stands
    UPTONE:Linear Power Supply
    DANACABLE:: Headphone cables

  12. #362

    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by Leatherneck View Post
    An FMC is an Ethernet media converter that converts RJ45 Ethernet media to/from SC Fiber. Both my X1 and my Cisco switch support SFP ports that accept Gigabit SFP transceivers that produce Fiber output. The SFP transceivers are small units that plug into the SFP ports and accept LC Fiber cable. In my case, I have SFP transceivers plugged into the Cisco and X1 which permits me to connect the two devices with a $27 Fiber cable. The resulting sound is very quiet and produces more depth than normal Ethernet cable. RJ45 is sometimes called copper to differentiate from Fiber.

    In cases where a device does not support SFP ports, you can use two FMC media converters connected with Fiber cable and provides R-J45 ports on both ends.

    The Gigafoil is a filter for Ethernet networks. It uses Fiber to accomplish this. I have one on order that I plan to use between my switch and my X1. I also have an AQVOX switch on order that's somewhere between Germany and Arizona. There is nothing wrong with my Cisco switch. It was recommended by our friend from Lumin and supports both R45J Ethernet and has two SFP ports as well. IMO that's worth more than $100 because it eliminates the need to buy two FMC modules.

    The cost of the hardware to support Fiber is low. FMC modules cost less than $60 on Amazon. SFP transceivers are $10 to $15. Fiber cable is dirt cheap.

    There may be some errors in my description of things but I've only been exposed to this technology recently.
    1) Is there a distinction between an SFP transceiver and an SFP module?

    2) What is the model number of your Cisco switch?
    Anthony
    Analog: VPI Clearaudio Innovation Wood/Kuzma 4Point/Ortofon A95> ASR Basis Exclusive HV---->

    Digital: Antipodes CX (Oladra Upgrade)> Cary DMS-600 DAC/Streamer---->
    ...........Cary 306 SACD Professional Disc Player---->

    ===> Cary SLP-05 (Ultimate Upgrade edition)----> Clayton M-300----> MARTIN LOGAN SPIRES/REL 212SX x2

    [Synergistic Research/Nordost/Wireworld/Furutech/SRA/Adona/Stillpoints/Track Audio/GIK Acoustics]

  13. #363

    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    IME the Gigafoil sounds much better than a FMC...

  14. #364
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by asindc View Post
    1) Is there a distinction between an SFP transceiver and an SFP module?

    2) What is the model number of your Cisco switch?
    The SFP module is a transceiver. Gigabit SFP LC single mode transceiver mini-GBIC module for Cisco (1310mm) (16.99 each on Amazon)

    The Cisco switch is a Cisco Systems 24-port Gigabit Switch (SG11224NA) (143.48 on Amazon)
    Bud<br>

    AAVIK: S-280 Streamer, D-280 DAC, I-280 Integrated Amplifier]
    NAIM: Atom HE Headphone Amp, Superlumina Speaker Cables, Power Cables
    HARBETH: 30.2 40th Anniversary Speakers
    FOCAL:: Utopia Headphones
    ANSUZ: C2 Power Cable, A2 Power Distributor, D2 Ethernet Cables, D2 PowerSwitch, D2 Interconnect
    NORDOST: Heimdall 2 Ethernet and Power Cables
    QUADRASPIRE: SVT Equipment Stand
    SKYLAN: Speaker Stands
    UPTONE:Linear Power Supply
    DANACABLE:: Headphone cables

  15. #365

    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by Leatherneck View Post
    The SFP module is a transceiver. Gigabit SFP LC single mode transceiver mini-GBIC module for Cisco (1310mm) (16.99 each on Amazon)

    The Cisco switch is a Cisco Systems 24-port Gigabit Switch (SG11224NA) (143.48 on Amazon)
    Thanks. When I first read your previous post I misread "FMC module" as "SFP module."
    Anthony
    Analog: VPI Clearaudio Innovation Wood/Kuzma 4Point/Ortofon A95> ASR Basis Exclusive HV---->

    Digital: Antipodes CX (Oladra Upgrade)> Cary DMS-600 DAC/Streamer---->
    ...........Cary 306 SACD Professional Disc Player---->

    ===> Cary SLP-05 (Ultimate Upgrade edition)----> Clayton M-300----> MARTIN LOGAN SPIRES/REL 212SX x2

    [Synergistic Research/Nordost/Wireworld/Furutech/SRA/Adona/Stillpoints/Track Audio/GIK Acoustics]

  16. #366
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingsrule View Post
    IME the Gigafoil sounds much better than a FMC...
    That may change now that the Sonore OpticalModule is shipping...

  17. #367

    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    That may change now that the Sonore OpticalModule is shipping...
    I'm way past that..using the MSB PRO USB on my S II......

  18. #368
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingsrule View Post
    I'm way past that..using the MSB PRO USB on my S II......
    Cool, but that's way out of my price class. I'm a "budget audiophile"...LOL.

  19. #369

    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingsrule View Post
    IME the Gigafoil sounds much better than a FMC...
    Interested in the differences between the Gigafoil and the FMC. Did you power either from a linear supply? Any special cables?

  20. #370
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by Rms View Post
    Interested in the differences between the Gigafoil and the FMC. Did you power either from a linear supply? Any special cables?
    I had some experience connecting my Cisco switch directly to my Lumin X1 using Fiber cable. I also made the connection using an FMC on one end. I liked the results enough to purchase a Gigafoil under the misconception that I could somehow affect my whole network with one Gigafoil.

    I'm using the Gigafoil between my switch and my Lumin X1. I use an Ansuz D2 Ethernet cable from the switch to the Gigafoil and an Ansuz Mainz X Ethernet cable from the Gigafoil to the Lumin X1.

    I began with my go-to Ethernet cable out of the Gigafoil, a Nordost Haimdall 2. I was disappointed in the results so I tried the X-series and the results are more than satisfying. This provided the most detail along with warmth and presence.

    I had already invested in the Ansuz D2 before buying the Gigafoil. I might have got along with a less costly cable between the switch and the Gigafoil. The D2 is four times the price of the X-series. The Ansuz X-series ethernet cable is about the same price as the Haimdall, $800+ for a 2 meter cable. I've replaced the Haimdall 2 with the Ansuz X in two places, Gigafoil to Lumin X1 and switch to Lumin L1. In both cases the Ansuz X is clearly better. I've ordered two more X-series from Denmark to use in my network.

    The Haimdall's have one major advantage, they are far more flexible. Connecting the Gigafoil between the two big, stiff Ansuz cables makes cable dressing impossible.

    I do have an aftermarket power supply for the Gigafoil, an iPower.
    Bud<br>

    AAVIK: S-280 Streamer, D-280 DAC, I-280 Integrated Amplifier]
    NAIM: Atom HE Headphone Amp, Superlumina Speaker Cables, Power Cables
    HARBETH: 30.2 40th Anniversary Speakers
    FOCAL:: Utopia Headphones
    ANSUZ: C2 Power Cable, A2 Power Distributor, D2 Ethernet Cables, D2 PowerSwitch, D2 Interconnect
    NORDOST: Heimdall 2 Ethernet and Power Cables
    QUADRASPIRE: SVT Equipment Stand
    SKYLAN: Speaker Stands
    UPTONE:Linear Power Supply
    DANACABLE:: Headphone cables

  21. #371
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by Leatherneck View Post
    I had some experience connecting my Cisco switch directly to my Lumin X1 using Fiber cable. I also made the connection using an FMC on one end. I liked the results enough to purchase a Gigafoil under the misconception that I could somehow affect my whole network with one Gigafoil.

    I'm using the Gigafoil between my switch and my Lumin X1. I use an Ansuz D2 Ethernet cable from the switch to the Gigafoil and an Ansuz Mainz X Ethernet cable from the Gigafoil to the Lumin X1.

    I began with my go-to Ethernet cable out of the Gigafoil, a Nordost Haimdall 2. I was disappointed in the results so I tried the X-series and the results are more than satisfying. This provided the most detail along with warmth and presence.

    I had already invested in the Ansuz D2 before buying the Gigafoil. I might have got along with a less costly cable between the switch and the Gigafoil. The D2 is four times the price of the X-series. The Ansuz X-series ethernet cable is about the same price as the Haimdall, $800+ for a 2 meter cable. I've replaced the Haimdall 2 with the Ansuz X in two places, Gigafoil to Lumin X1 and switch to Lumin L1. In both cases the Ansuz X is clearly better. I've ordered two more X-series from Denmark to use in my network.

    The Haimdall's have one major advantage, they are far more flexible. Connecting the Gigafoil between the two big, stiff Ansuz cables makes cable dressing impossible.

    I do have an aftermarket power supply for the Gigafoil, an iPower.
    I’m following your journey! Looking forward to hearing how things progress.
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  22. #372
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Thanks Mike. My new AQVox switch is due to arrive today. More Ansuz Mainz X Ethernets in a couple of weeks. It seems I've spent my whole audiophile life waiting for something to arrive or something to break-in.

    I thought long and hard about obtaining AudioQuest Diamonds from you rather than the Ansuz kit but old habits are hard to break. Fortunately, I'm pleased with the results.

    BTW, the Lumin L1 is an expensive NAS but it works beautifully and sounds better than my Synology NAS. It's small, simple to use and beautiful. I wish it was black to go with my X1.
    Bud<br>

    AAVIK: S-280 Streamer, D-280 DAC, I-280 Integrated Amplifier]
    NAIM: Atom HE Headphone Amp, Superlumina Speaker Cables, Power Cables
    HARBETH: 30.2 40th Anniversary Speakers
    FOCAL:: Utopia Headphones
    ANSUZ: C2 Power Cable, A2 Power Distributor, D2 Ethernet Cables, D2 PowerSwitch, D2 Interconnect
    NORDOST: Heimdall 2 Ethernet and Power Cables
    QUADRASPIRE: SVT Equipment Stand
    SKYLAN: Speaker Stands
    UPTONE:Linear Power Supply
    DANACABLE:: Headphone cables

  23. #373
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    This thread has opened my eyes to the potential SQ improvement hidden in my ethernet chain. As a devote digital only music lover streaming from Tidal/Qobuz and from my NAS, I had always thought that signal was ‘bits are bits’. Boy was I wrong.

    The addition of a Gigafoil v4 and Keces P3 and most recently a 9 meter run of Supra Cat 8+ Ethernet cable have in total, kicked my system up a notch or two. It is simple more cohesive/seamless - integrated.

    Thabk you to all you pioneers for showing me there was ‘more’ out there!
    Main Equipment: Kharma Elegance dB11-S, JL Audio F113v2, Block Audio Line & Mono SE Amplification, Bricasti M21 DAC, Antipodes Kala K-50 Server with 4TB internal SSD
    Power: Shunyata Everest 8000, Sigma XC v2, Block Audio Power Cords, Defender, ADDPowr Wizard
    Grounding: Shunyata Altaira CGS - Alpha CGS cables
    Network : Supra Cat 8+, Twin (Nenon) Modified Buffalo GS2016 Switches with fiber in between powered with Keces P3 LPSU,
    Cables: Wireworld Platinum Starlight 8 USB, Wireworld Platinum Eclipse 8 Speaker cables, 1M & 6M Tubulus Concentus ICs,
    Other: Isoacoustics GAIA I footers on the Kharmas, GIK & Stillpoint Apertures, Stillpoint Ultra SS under
    Everest and Amplifiers, Three dedicated 20 Amp lines w/Furutech GTX - Gold outlets, Adona 5 Shelf rack, ROON, a few HRS weights

  24. #374
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by crwilli View Post
    This thread has opened my eyes to the potential SQ improvement hidden in my ethernet chain. As a devote digital only music lover streaming from Tidal/Qobuz and from my NAS, I had always thought that signal was ‘bits are bits’. Boy was I wrong.

    The addition of a Gigafoil v4 and Keces P3 and most recently a 9 meter run of Supra Cat 8+ Ethernet cable have in total, kicked my system up a notch or two. It is simple more cohesive/seamless - integrated.

    Thabk you to all you pioneers for showing me there was ‘more’ out there!
    Good to hear your getting positive results from the upgrades. I've put Supra ethernet cables throughout my digital end with the exception of a Cardas ethernet from the GigaFoil to my preamp. The Supra cable are a affordable way to upgrade IMO.
    Speakers: Magico S3 (23')
    Integrated:Gryphon Diablo 300 plus DAC
    Streamer: HiFi Rose RS150b
    CD/DVD: Oppo 205
    Cables: Cardas-Shunyata-AudioQuest-Supra
    Roon Core: sonicTransporter i7 powered with HDPlex 200w linear PS, running AudioLinux for Roon--Tidal and Qobuz with iPad Pro

    Time is just a tool humans created to measure movement and record events

  25. #375
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by crwilli View Post
    This thread has opened my eyes to the potential SQ improvement hidden in my ethernet chain. As a devote digital only music lover streaming from Tidal/Qobuz and from my NAS, I had always thought that signal was ‘bits are bits’. Boy was I wrong.

    The addition of a Gigafoil v4 and Keces P3 and most recently a 9 meter run of Supra Cat 8+ Ethernet cable have in total, kicked my system up a notch or two. It is simple more cohesive/seamless - integrated.

    Thabk you to all you pioneers for showing me there was ‘more’ out there!
    Hi Craig,

    I've seen many folks state that many things cannot possibly impact digital playback because, "Bits are Bits".

    The reality is that digital playback stream is not comprised of "bits". Bits are only the format in which the data is stored, essentially. What is actually being "transferred" in any digital playback system are analog square waves, which I'm sure you know are very hard to pass perfectly.

    In metallic conductors, e.g., Ethernet cables and USB cables, the signal tranmission of these analog square waves are susceptible, as you have found out, to EMI/RFI 'contamination" which impacts the shape and timing of these square waves. They are also susceptible, as I just found out in the last week, to low-impedance and high-impedance leakage currents. These leakage currents are AC harmonic currents (at 60, 120, 180 Hz) cause ground loops that travel down metallic conductors and are also deleterious to signal quality. Your GigaFOIL does not pass these, but it does pass...clock phase noise, which can arise from these leakage currents and the poor clocks in everything upstream of your DAC (e.g. routers, Wifi Extenders, Ethernet switches, FMCs, etc., etc.). The biggest culprits for the low- and high-impedance leakage currents are the notorious SMPS: switch mode power supplies. If you want to take your system further, replace every SMPS in your playback chain (including the cable modem, router, Ethernet switch) with a proper linear power supply.

    While using ifber will block the leakage currents from passing "down the line", it does not prevent clock phase noise.

    Here is John Swenson, who discovered the high-impedance leakage currents only at the end of 2017, discussing clock phase noise as it pertains to the development of the forthcoming EtherREGEN from Uptone Audio:

    ________________________________________

    "The understanding of "isolation" in digital audio has been my passion for at least 10 years. There is a LOT of misunderstanding on the subject floating around in audio circles. Here is a quick summary of my current understanding and how the current products fit in with this.

    There seems to be TWO independent mechanisms involved: leakage current and clock phase noise. Various amounts of these two exist in any system. Different "isolation" technologies out there address one or the other, but very rarely both at the same time. Some technologies that attenuate one actually increase the other. Thus the massively confusing information out there.

    Leakage current is a property of power supplies. It is the leakage of AC mains frequency (50/60 Hz) into the DC output. It is usually common mode (ie exists on BOTH the + and - wires at the same time, this makes it a bit difficult to see. There seems to be two different types, one that comes from linear supplies and is fairly easy to block, and an additional type that comes from SMPS and is MUCH harder to block. An SMPS contains BOTH types. They are BOTH line frequency.

    Unfortunately in our modern times where essentially all computer equipment is powered by SMPS we have to deal with this situation of both leakage types coming down cables from our computer equipment. There are many devices on the market (I have designed some of them) for both USB and Ethernet, most can deal with the type from linear supplies but only a few can deal with the type from SMPS.

    Optical connections (when the power supplies are completely isolated from each other) CAN completely block all forms of leakage, it is extremely effective. Optical takes care of leakage, but does not deal with the second mechanism.

    Clock phase noise

    Phase noise is a frequency measurement of "jitter", yes that term that is so completely mis-understood in audio circles that I'm not going to use it. Phase noise is a way to look at the frequency spectrum of jitter, the reason to use it is that there seems to be fairly decent correlation to sound quality. Note this has nothing to do with "pico seconds" or "femto seconds". Forget those terms, they do not directly have meaning in audio, what matters is the phase noise. Ynfortunately phase noise is shown on a graph, not a single number, so it is much harder to directly compare units. This subject is HUGE and I'm not going to go into any more detail here.

    Different oscillators (the infamous "clocks" that get talked about) can have radically different phase noise. The level of phase noise that is very good for digital audio is very difficult to achieve and costs money. The corollary is that the cheap clocks used in most computer equipment (including network equipment) produce phase noise that is very bad for digital audio.

    The important thing to understand is that ALL digital signals carry the "fingerprint" of the clock used to produce them. When a signal coming from a box with cheap clocks comes into a box (via Ethernet or USB etc) with a much better clock, the higher level of phase noise carried on the data signal can contaminate the phase noise of the "good" clock in the second box. Exactly how this happens is complicated, I've written about this in detail if you want to look it up and see what is going on.

    The contamination is not complete, every time the signal gets "reclocked" by a much better clock the resulting signal carries an attenuated version of the first clock layered on top of the fingerprint of the second clock. The word "reclocked" just means the signal is regenerated by a circuit fed a different clock. It may be a better or a worse clock, reclocking doesn't always make things better!

    As an example if you start with an Ethernet signal coming out of a cheap switch, the clock fingerprint is going to be pretty bad. If this goes into a circuit with a VERY good clock, the signal coming out contains a reduced fingerprint from the first clock layered on top of the good clock. If you feed THIS signal into another circuit with a very good clock, the fingerprint from the original clock gets reduced even further. But if you feed this signal into a box with a bad clock, you are back to a signal with a bad fingerprint.

    The summary is that stringing together devices with GOOD clocking can dramatically attenuate the results of an upstream bad clock.

    The latest devices form Sonore take on BOTH of these mechanisms that effect sound: optical for blocking leakage and multiple reclocking with very good clocks. The optical part should be obvious. A side benefit of the optical circuit is that is completely regenerates the signal with a VERY low phase noise clock, this is a one step reclocking. It attenuates effects from upstream circuits but does not completely get rid of them. This is where the opticalModule comes into play, if you put an opticalModule in the path to the opticalRendu you are adding another reclocking with VERY good clocking. The result is a very large attenuation of upstream effects. It's not completely zero, but it is close.

    The fact that the opticalRendu is a one stage reclocking (which leaves some effects from upstage circuits) is why changing switches etc can still make a difference. Adding an OpticalModule between the switch and opticalRendu reduces that down to vanishingly small differences.

    So an optical module by itself adds both leakage elimination and significant clock effects attenuation. TWO optical modules in series give you the two level reclocking .
    - John Swenson

    Bottom-line: Your GigaFOIL is great for preventing leakage currents, but will do nothing to prevent clock phase noise. The most important thing one can do is to ensure that you have the maximal quality clocks from the source to the playback device. This is why putting Ethernet switches, or OpticalModules in series helps with clock phase noise.

    Best,
    Stephen

  26. #376

    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Thanks Stephen, nice write-up.

    In your view, would there be a way to create a perfect signal?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    “Life’s too short to listen to bad audio.”

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    HP rig: MacBookAir/ Tidal/ Auralic Gemini 2000/ Sbooster LPSU/ Audeze LCD-2 Classic + WyWires Red/ Shunyata HD/ Shunyata Hydra 2/ Shunyata Venom.

  27. #377
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Puma,

    I have never heard a straight answer on which Clock is doing what until your post, and still need to read this probably a few more times.

    When I break it down, I can see why each category is so close, and the N10 from the SSD beats the Oppo Transport

    When streaming;

    AQVox SE - Clock
    Gigafoil
    Aurender N10 - Clock
    Brinkmann Nyquist MK II - Clock

    When playing from the N10:

    Aurender N10 - Clock
    Brinkmann Nyquist MK II - Clock

    When playing from the Oppo Transport:

    Brinkmann Nyquist MK II - Clock


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Source Analog: Kuzma Stabi R w/4point 11 arm | Kuzma 50 Cartridge
    Source Digital: Aurender N10 | Brinkmann Nyquist MK II
    Amplification: Dan D’Agostino Momentum HD and M400’s | Boulder 508
    Speakers: Wilson Alexias
    Cabling: Nordost Leif, Norse, V2 and Odin
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  28. #378
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    2,392

    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by UltraFast69 View Post
    Puma,

    I have never heard a straight answer on which Clock is doing what until your post, and still need to read this probably a few more times.

    When I break it down, I can see why each category is so close, and the N10 from the SSD beats the Oppo Transport

    When streaming;

    AQVox SE - Clock
    Gigafoil
    Aurender N10 - Clock
    Brinkmann Nyquist MK II - Clock

    When playing from the N10:

    Aurender N10 - Clock
    Brinkmann Nyquist MK II - Clock

    When playing from the Oppo Transport:

    Brinkmann Nyquist MK II - Clock


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Yup.

    I only learned of a lot of this in the last week or so, but I will admit I have reading and researching about it extensively.

    Another key factor that plays into this is effective grounding as well, but that's another digression.

    I have come to the conclusion, though, that the old saw, "Bits are bits" is bullish*t.

  29. #379

    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by Leatherneck View Post
    I had some experience connecting my Cisco switch directly to my Lumin X1 using Fiber cable. I also made the connection using an FMC on one end. I liked the results enough to purchase a Gigafoil under the misconception that I could somehow affect my whole network with one Gigafoil.

    I'm using the Gigafoil between my switch and my Lumin X1. I use an Ansuz D2 Ethernet cable from the switch to the Gigafoil and an Ansuz Mainz X Ethernet cable from the Gigafoil to the Lumin X1.

    I began with my go-to Ethernet cable out of the Gigafoil, a Nordost Haimdall 2. I was disappointed in the results so I tried the X-series and the results are more than satisfying. This provided the most detail along with warmth and presence.

    I had already invested in the Ansuz D2 before buying the Gigafoil. I might have got along with a less costly cable between the switch and the Gigafoil. The D2 is four times the price of the X-series. The Ansuz X-series ethernet cable is about the same price as the Haimdall, $800+ for a 2 meter cable. I've replaced the Haimdall 2 with the Ansuz X in two places, Gigafoil to Lumin X1 and switch to Lumin L1. In both cases the Ansuz X is clearly better. I've ordered two more X-series from Denmark to use in my network.

    The Haimdall's have one major advantage, they are far more flexible. Connecting the Gigafoil between the two big, stiff Ansuz cables makes cable dressing impossible.

    I do have an aftermarket power supply for the Gigafoil, an iPower.
    Thank you for the reply and the efforts undertaken to optimise the noise reduction of Ethernet. I also had the Heimdall in mind, but now hesitate based on your experience with them. For the FMC route, each FMC needs a PSU, and the costs start to climb, so am leaning away from this complexity . I try to keep it simple with a JCAT NET FEMTO at the music server, 25m cat 5 direct to a Lumin U1. The sound is very good, great image, the Gigafoil appeals since it is one stop, and not spread out over many devices to remove that last bit of noise.

  30. #380
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    754

    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    Hi Craig,

    I've seen many folks state that many things cannot possibly impact digital playback because, "Bits are Bits".

    The reality is that digital playback stream is not comprised of "bits". Bits are only the format in which the data is stored, essentially. What is actually being "transferred" in any digital playback system are analog square waves, which I'm sure you know are very hard to pass perfectly.

    In metallic conductors, e.g., Ethernet cables and USB cables, the signal tranmission of these analog square waves are susceptible, as you have found out, to EMI/RFI 'contamination" which impacts the shape and timing of these square waves. They are also susceptible, as I just found out in the last week, to low-impedance and high-impedance leakage currents. These leakage currents are AC harmonic currents (at 60, 120, 180 Hz) cause ground loops that travel down metallic conductors and are also deleterious to signal quality. Your GigaFOIL does not pass these, but it does pass...clock phase noise, which can arise from these leakage currents and the poor clocks in everything upstream of your DAC (e.g. routers, Wifi Extenders, Ethernet switches, FMCs, etc., etc.). The biggest culprits for the low- and high-impedance leakage currents are the notorious SMPS: switch mode power supplies. If you want to take your system further, replace every SMPS in your playback chain (including the cable modem, router, Ethernet switch) with a proper linear power supply.

    While using ifber will block the leakage currents from passing "down the line", it does not prevent clock phase noise.

    Here is John Swenson, who discovered the high-impedance leakage currents only at the end of 2017, discussing clock phase noise as it pertains to the development of the forthcoming EtherREGEN from Uptone Audio:

    ________________________________________

    "The understanding of "isolation" in digital audio has been my passion for at least 10 years. There is a LOT of misunderstanding on the subject floating around in audio circles. Here is a quick summary of my current understanding and how the current products fit in with this.

    There seems to be TWO independent mechanisms involved: leakage current and clock phase noise. Various amounts of these two exist in any system. Different "isolation" technologies out there address one or the other, but very rarely both at the same time. Some technologies that attenuate one actually increase the other. Thus the massively confusing information out there.

    Leakage current is a property of power supplies. It is the leakage of AC mains frequency (50/60 Hz) into the DC output. It is usually common mode (ie exists on BOTH the + and - wires at the same time, this makes it a bit difficult to see. There seems to be two different types, one that comes from linear supplies and is fairly easy to block, and an additional type that comes from SMPS and is MUCH harder to block. An SMPS contains BOTH types. They are BOTH line frequency.

    Unfortunately in our modern times where essentially all computer equipment is powered by SMPS we have to deal with this situation of both leakage types coming down cables from our computer equipment. There are many devices on the market (I have designed some of them) for both USB and Ethernet, most can deal with the type from linear supplies but only a few can deal with the type from SMPS.

    Optical connections (when the power supplies are completely isolated from each other) CAN completely block all forms of leakage, it is extremely effective. Optical takes care of leakage, but does not deal with the second mechanism.

    Clock phase noise

    Phase noise is a frequency measurement of "jitter", yes that term that is so completely mis-understood in audio circles that I'm not going to use it. Phase noise is a way to look at the frequency spectrum of jitter, the reason to use it is that there seems to be fairly decent correlation to sound quality. Note this has nothing to do with "pico seconds" or "femto seconds". Forget those terms, they do not directly have meaning in audio, what matters is the phase noise. Ynfortunately phase noise is shown on a graph, not a single number, so it is much harder to directly compare units. This subject is HUGE and I'm not going to go into any more detail here.

    Different oscillators (the infamous "clocks" that get talked about) can have radically different phase noise. The level of phase noise that is very good for digital audio is very difficult to achieve and costs money. The corollary is that the cheap clocks used in most computer equipment (including network equipment) produce phase noise that is very bad for digital audio.

    The important thing to understand is that ALL digital signals carry the "fingerprint" of the clock used to produce them. When a signal coming from a box with cheap clocks comes into a box (via Ethernet or USB etc) with a much better clock, the higher level of phase noise carried on the data signal can contaminate the phase noise of the "good" clock in the second box. Exactly how this happens is complicated, I've written about this in detail if you want to look it up and see what is going on.

    The contamination is not complete, every time the signal gets "reclocked" by a much better clock the resulting signal carries an attenuated version of the first clock layered on top of the fingerprint of the second clock. The word "reclocked" just means the signal is regenerated by a circuit fed a different clock. It may be a better or a worse clock, reclocking doesn't always make things better!

    As an example if you start with an Ethernet signal coming out of a cheap switch, the clock fingerprint is going to be pretty bad. If this goes into a circuit with a VERY good clock, the signal coming out contains a reduced fingerprint from the first clock layered on top of the good clock. If you feed THIS signal into another circuit with a very good clock, the fingerprint from the original clock gets reduced even further. But if you feed this signal into a box with a bad clock, you are back to a signal with a bad fingerprint.

    The summary is that stringing together devices with GOOD clocking can dramatically attenuate the results of an upstream bad clock.

    The latest devices form Sonore take on BOTH of these mechanisms that effect sound: optical for blocking leakage and multiple reclocking with very good clocks. The optical part should be obvious. A side benefit of the optical circuit is that is completely regenerates the signal with a VERY low phase noise clock, this is a one step reclocking. It attenuates effects from upstream circuits but does not completely get rid of them. This is where the opticalModule comes into play, if you put an opticalModule in the path to the opticalRendu you are adding another reclocking with VERY good clocking. The result is a very large attenuation of upstream effects. It's not completely zero, but it is close.

    The fact that the opticalRendu is a one stage reclocking (which leaves some effects from upstage circuits) is why changing switches etc can still make a difference. Adding an OpticalModule between the switch and opticalRendu reduces that down to vanishingly small differences.

    So an optical module by itself adds both leakage elimination and significant clock effects attenuation. TWO optical modules in series give you the two level reclocking .
    - John Swenson

    Bottom-line: Your GigaFOIL is great for preventing leakage currents, but will do nothing to prevent clock phase noise. The most important thing one can do is to ensure that you have the maximal quality clocks from the source to the playback device. This is why putting Ethernet switches, or OpticalModules in series helps with clock phase noise.

    Best,
    Stephen
    I have read where people have connected two of the SoTM switches with external clock inputs together with a common external Master Clock and achieves the best they have heard in their systems. That result is consistent with what Mr. Swenson is talking about. While my Cybershaft can serve as the Master Clock for more devices and the view at the top of that hill may be better, it would be a very steep hill to climb for me. Two of those switches plus two more Shunyata Alpha cables would bring me over $5,000. But I am watching and learning and very interested in next steps.
    Main Equipment: Kharma Elegance dB11-S, JL Audio F113v2, Block Audio Line & Mono SE Amplification, Bricasti M21 DAC, Antipodes Kala K-50 Server with 4TB internal SSD
    Power: Shunyata Everest 8000, Sigma XC v2, Block Audio Power Cords, Defender, ADDPowr Wizard
    Grounding: Shunyata Altaira CGS - Alpha CGS cables
    Network : Supra Cat 8+, Twin (Nenon) Modified Buffalo GS2016 Switches with fiber in between powered with Keces P3 LPSU,
    Cables: Wireworld Platinum Starlight 8 USB, Wireworld Platinum Eclipse 8 Speaker cables, 1M & 6M Tubulus Concentus ICs,
    Other: Isoacoustics GAIA I footers on the Kharmas, GIK & Stillpoint Apertures, Stillpoint Ultra SS under
    Everest and Amplifiers, Three dedicated 20 Amp lines w/Furutech GTX - Gold outlets, Adona 5 Shelf rack, ROON, a few HRS weights

  31. #381
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    puma cat: thanks for this post and all the others on this topic. lots of good information here to help us understand some of the nuances of digital signal transmission for audio applications.

    after reading the john swenson material in the post several times, i have one question on the below quoted section which, perhaps, others here can address:

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    ...The important thing to understand is that ALL digital signals carry the "fingerprint" of the clock used to produce them. When a signal coming from a box with cheap clocks comes into a box (via Ethernet or USB etc) with a much better clock, the higher level of phase noise carried on the data signal can contaminate the phase noise of the "good" clock in the second box...

    ...As an example if you start with an Ethernet signal coming out of a cheap switch, the clock fingerprint is going to be pretty bad. If this goes into a circuit with a VERY good clock, the signal coming out contains a reduced fingerprint from the first clock layered on top of the good clock. If you feed THIS signal into another circuit with a very good clock, the fingerprint from the original clock gets reduced even further. But if you feed this signal into a box with a bad clock, you are back to a signal with a bad fingerprint...
    the question generated by the above statement is with respect to only ethernet... my understanding is that for audio applications ethernet is a method of file / data transfer and is not used to transmit a rendered audio signal. at least this should be the case for DACs with a network renderer (please, correct me if i am wrong here).

    my question concerns the case where an audio file is transmitted over ethernet to a "box" which then writes the file to storage (ssd) or to memory (ram) for either later access or caching... does that stored (at rest) file then contain the fingerprint of the upstream clock? if so, it would follow that the audio file has then been changed forever and that would then violate all the ethernet protocols governing error detection and correction.

    similarly, what about the case of a file transmitted (streamed) over ethernet to a box which then buffers the data for immediate use / rendering? even in this case, the presence of any fingerprint from the upstream clock would also seem to "permanently" change the file data, thereby, also violating ethernet error protocols?

    thanks in advance for any comments here to help further my understanding of this.
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  32. #382
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by Rms View Post
    Thank you for the reply and the efforts undertaken to optimise the noise reduction of Ethernet. I also had the Heimdall in mind, but now hesitate based on your experience with them. For the FMC route, each FMC needs a PSU, and the costs start to climb, so am leaning away from this complexity . I try to keep it simple with a JCAT NET FEMTO at the music server, 25m cat 5 direct to a Lumin U1. The sound is very good, great image, the Gigafoil appeals since it is one stop, and not spread out over many devices to remove that last bit of noise.
    Heimdells are nice cables, but like any cable, each serve as a conduit in sound, price be damned.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
    Source Analog: Kuzma Stabi R w/4point 11 arm | Kuzma 50 Cartridge
    Source Digital: Aurender N10 | Brinkmann Nyquist MK II
    Amplification: Dan D’Agostino Momentum HD and M400’s | Boulder 508
    Speakers: Wilson Alexias
    Cabling: Nordost Leif, Norse, V2 and Odin
    Power and Isolation: Audio-Ultra Home & Room Power Foundation Performance Package with StromTank S1000 | HRS









  33. #383
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    GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by aKnyght View Post
    puma cat: thanks for this post and all the others on this topic. lots of good information here to help us understand some of the nuances of digital signal transmission for audio applications.

    after reading the john swenson material in the post several times, i have one question on the below quoted section which, perhaps, others here can address:



    the question generated by the above statement is with respect to only ethernet... my understanding is that for audio applications ethernet is a method of file transfer and is not used to transmit a rendered audio signal. at least this should be the case for DACs with a network renderer (please, correct me if i am wrong here).

    my question concerns the case where an audio file is transmitted over ethernet to a "box" which then writes the file to storage (ssd) or to memory (ram) for either caching or later access... does that stored (at rest) file then contain the fingerprint of the upstream clock? if so, it would follow that the audio file has then been changed forever and that would then violate all the ethernet protocols governing error detection and correction.

    similarly, what about the case where a file transmitted over ethernet to a box which then buffers the data for immediate use/rendering? even in this case, the presence of any fingerprint from the upstream clock would also seem to "permanently" change the file data, thereby, also violating ethernet error protocols?

    thanks in advance for any comments here to help further my understanding of this.
    Isn’t it really all about file transmission rates and their accuracy and how noise affects the path from A to B, leading to a level of file corruption? The better the file is transmitted and received, with the least path of resistance to preserve its original source, including the materials used within the cable, the better the sound quality.

    I’m not sure files can be rebuilt to their original source quality once passed down the line. Something like once the car is damaged, sure it can be repaired to look as new, but never as original or bluntly stated; garbage in, garbage out.




    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
    Source Analog: Kuzma Stabi R w/4point 11 arm | Kuzma 50 Cartridge
    Source Digital: Aurender N10 | Brinkmann Nyquist MK II
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  34. #384
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    I am not sure if I have encountered so many variables trying to improve the SQ of my set-up as I have with the different pieces that make up my digital network. Over many months I have dealt with improvements in SQ offset by reliability (dropout) issues. Some products did not seem to want to work with each other. The sequence in which the network saw different types and lengths of cables/wires made a difference. I knew pulling new wire was a challenge. Different products improved the sound in very different ways. Will combining those products produce a sound that is better or worse than they do individually? Trying to reintroduce a GigaFOIL into my new set-up might be my next challenge.
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  35. #385
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by UltraFast69 View Post
    Isn’t it really all about file transmission rates and their accuracy and how noise affects the path from A to B, leading to a level of file corruption? The better the file is transmitted and received, with the least path of resistance to preserve its original source, including the materials used within the cable, the better the sound quality.

    I’m not sure files can be rebuilt to their original source quality once passed down the line. Something like once the car is damaged, sure it can be repaired to look as new, but never as original or bluntly stated; garbage in, garbage out.
    ultraFast69: my question is specific to ethernet data transmission whose specifications / standards include error checking and correction protocols such that at the end of the process both the sending and receiving devices know exactly the same data... in essence, ethernet protocols mandate that the transmitted files are "rebuilt to their original source quality".

    "Systems communicating over Ethernet divide a stream of data into shorter pieces called frames. Each frame contains source and destination addresses, and error-checking data so that damaged frames can be detected and discarded; most often, higher-layer protocols trigger retransmission of lost frames... The Internet Protocol is commonly carried over Ethernet and so it is considered one of the key technologies that make up the Internet." -wikipedia

    from the swenson quote in post #375, i am trying to understand how data transmitted over ethernet can contain the "fingerprint" of upstream clocks -- which are used to time the transmitting of the data but have absolutely nothing to do with the content of the data itself? this would imply the data transmitted has been modified to include this "fingerprint" which would be in direct conflict with ethernet protocols -- and, presumably, imposible.
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  36. #386
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by Rms View Post
    Thank you for the reply and the efforts undertaken to optimise the noise reduction of Ethernet. I also had the Heimdall in mind, but now hesitate based on your experience with them. For the FMC route, each FMC needs a PSU, and the costs start to climb, so am leaning away from this complexity . I try to keep it simple with a JCAT NET FEMTO at the music server, 25m cat 5 direct to a Lumin U1. The sound is very good, great image, the Gigafoil appeals since it is one stop, and not spread out over many devices to remove that last bit of noise.
    Respectfully, no, not really. You can very effectively power each FMC with a $10.95 Jameco 5V (for the OpticalModule) or 9V (for consumer-grade FMCs) regulated linear power supply. These work quite well, actually and sound quite good. My first fiber config cost me all of $66. A $17 7M of OM-1 spec fiber is considerably less expensive (by at ~ two orders of magnitude) than a long run of audiophile ethernet cable, and....it is impervious to EMI/RFI and low- and high-impedance leakage currents.

  37. #387
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by aKnyght View Post
    the question generated by the above statement is with respect to only ethernet... my understanding is that for audio applications ethernet is a method of file / data transfer and is not used to transmit a rendered audio signal. at least this should be the case for DACs with a network renderer (please, correct me if i am wrong here).
    I'm not an expert by any means, only someone who has been doing a lot of reading on this lately. The bottom line is, it doesn't really mattter whether the "connector" is a "copper" ethernet, a USB cable or a run of optical fiber....all of these methodologies transfer analog square waves; analog signals are susceptible to a wide class of noise factors, some of which have been discussed above.


    my question concerns the case where an audio file is transmitted over ethernet to a "box" which then writes the file to storage (ssd) or to memory (ram) for either later access or caching... does that stored (at rest) file then contain the fingerprint of the upstream clock? if so, it would follow that the audio file has then been changed forever and that would then violate all the ethernet protocols governing error detection and correction.
    For file "storage" I don't think this scenario would fall prey to the comments above because the timing, shape and phase noise do not play a role because there is nothing being streamed real-time. The data, once sent, gets converted from the analog square wave by the PHY chip and the MAC to be stored in NAND or hard-drive memory as 0s and 1s. In this case, timing and if I were to guess, clock phase noise is not a problem.

    As for for storage in RAM or a cache, I would think the above would apply, but I am not a subject matter expert; better to ask John Swenson on that computer audio forum.

    As best as I can figure, and this is what all the IT professionals get completely wrong with respect to digital music streaming and playback is, as Hans Beekhuzen has stated, timing is HYPERCRITICAL.

    It doesn't matter when a printer printing a document or photo, or a computer display sees a dropped packet and requests a resend via the receiver; the pixel either gets printed or displayed, and we don't observe these little corrections because the output is DISCRETE: either the pixel got printed or displayed, or not. But music playback is not discrete, its continuous, and our brains are extremely aware of extremely small timing differences, differences which we can hear. Our hearing is also very sensitive to distortions. If EMI/RF/leakage currents or clock phase noise impact a digital bitstream and cause "parts" of the playback of fundamentals and harmonics to spill over into inharmonics or specific overtones, we may not like the sound of that at all. A Guanerius violin playing Vivaldi does not sound smooth, sweet and extended, it sounds steely, harsh and strident. This is, to a large degree, I think, that while LPs don't have the dynamic range of digital recordings, many listeners find LPs to a more "engaging" representation of what we perceive as what real music sounds like.

    similarly, what about the case of a file transmitted (streamed) over ethernet to a box which then buffers the data for immediate use / rendering? even in this case, the presence of any fingerprint from the upstream clock would also seem to "permanently" change the file data, thereby, also violating ethernet error protocols?

    Its not about ethernet error protocols, that is just a set of rules. Any analog square wave that is the actual, physical manifestation of a digital bitstream is susceptible to EMI, RF, AC leakage currents, power/ground interactions, a shift in the ground plane (which should always be "ZERO") that is the result an interaction of the ground plane with a fast transient, clock phase noise, etc. etc. Any receiver that ramps up current and voltage in requesting a packet be re-sent also means there's more noise in that circuit. Even the number, arrangement and wiring of transformers in Ethernet connections (e.g. ports and switches) matters.

  38. #388
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by UltraFast69 View Post
    Isn’t it really all about file transmission rates and their accuracy and how noise affects the path from A to B, leading to a level of file corruption? The better the file is transmitted and received, with the least path of resistance to preserve its original source, including the materials used within the cable, the better the sound quality.
    Well, yes and no. I can't speak to the tranmission rates. However their accuracy is impacted by various noise/distortion components and the timing of them is impacted by clock phase noise.

    With respect to cables, as all Ethernet or USB cables, are either copper or silver, I think the differences are more due to cable design & construction approaches, more so than materials, per se (though using PVC as an insulator/dielectric is never a good idea). Shielded cables that are connected to metal RJ45 plugs are a bad idea; they pass leakage currents on to their respective receivers.

    I’m not sure files can be rebuilt to their original source quality once passed down the line. Something like once the car is damaged, sure it can be repaired to look as new, but never as original or bluntly stated; garbage in, garbage out.
    I think we have to separate "storage" of digital music files from the digital "bitstream". The files are stored in NAND or hard-drive memory as 0s and 1s. The problem during sending the bitstream is not with the intrinsic data error correction functions, its all the "stuff" that gets "layered on top of" the analog squareware voltage that comprises the digital bitstream that occurs during streaming that is the problem, as near as I can figure.

  39. #389
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by still-one View Post
    I am not sure if I have encountered so many variables trying to improve the SQ of my set-up as I have with the different pieces that make up my digital network. Over many months I have dealt with improvements in SQ offset by reliability (dropout) issues. Some products did not seem to want to work with each other. The sequence in which the network saw different types and lengths of cables/wires made a difference. I knew pulling new wire was a challenge. Different products improved the sound in very different ways. Will combining those products produce a sound that is better or worse than they do individually? Trying to reintroduce a GigaFOIL into my new set-up might be my next challenge.
    Jim, does the GigaFOIL have a clock subsystem? My guess is it has to, at some level.

  40. #390
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    More info from John Swenson...quoted here for accuracy and attribution

    "All the optical does is block leakage, it doesn't get rid of clocking issues at all (it can actually make them worse). The fact that it is optical does not automatically apply some universal quantum time scheme that mystically aligns edges perfectly, If you send in a pulse, then another that is 50ns apart, then another at 51ns, then another at 49, that difference gets preserved at the receiver, the optical does not magically force all of them to be exactly 50ns.

    The raw data coming out of the optical receiver goes into a chip that rebuilds the Ethernet signal using its own local clock, that is done with flip flops inside the chip, these flip flops behave just like any other flip flops, again no magic here. I was trying to avoid re-iterating what I have said before on this, but it looks like I'm going to have to do it anyway.

    So how come this reclocking with a new clock is not perfect? As edges from the input stream go into a circuit each and every one of those edges creates a current pulse on the power and ground network inside the chip and on the board. The timing of that pulse is exactly related to the timing of the input data. The timing of the input data is directly related to the jitter on the clock producing the stream. This noise on the PG network changes the threshold voltage of anything receiving data inside the chip, especially the local clock going into the chip. This means the phase noise spectrum of the data coming in gets overlayed on top of the phase noise spectrum of the local clock. It's attenuated from what it is in the source box, but it is definitely still there.

    THAT is how phase noise gets from one device to the next, EVEN over optical connections.

    If you look at this in a system containing all uniformly bad clocks, you don't particularly see this, since they are all bad to begin with. BUT when you go from a bad to a very good clock you can definitely see this contamination of the really good clock by the overlaying of the bad clock. This is really hard to directly measure because most of the effect is happening inside the flip flop chip itself. You CAN see the effect on the data coming out of the flip flop.

    This process happens all the way down the chain, Ethernet to USB, USB into DAC box, and inside the DAC chips themselves, finally winding up on the analog out.

    Wherever reclocking is happening, how strong this overlay is depends primarily on the impedance of the power and ground network, both on boards and inside chips. A lower impedance PG network produces lower clock overlay, higher PG impedance give stronger overlay.

    This is something that is difficult to find out about a particular chip, the impedance of the PG network is NEVER listed in the data sheets! I have somewhat of an advantage here having spent 33 years in the semiconductor industry, spending a lot of time designing PG networks in chips, I have some insight into which chips look like good candidates for low impedance PG networks.

    On a side note, because Ethernet and USB are packet systems the receiving circuit CAN use a completely separate clock, the frequency just has to be close enough to handle the small number of bits in the packet. If it is a little to slow or too fast the difference is made up in the dead time between packets.

    To reiterate none of this has ANYTHING to do with accurately reading bits, this is assumed. It IS all about high jitter on network clocks working its way down through reclockings to the DAC chips and hence to audio outs. All the work done on DACs in recent years has cleaned up the signals so dramatically that these effects are getting to be audible in many systems."

  41. #391
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    More info from John Swenson...quoted here for accuracy and attribution...
    thanks for this information!! very helpful in putting all the pieces together.

    to clarify: i am referring to ethernet transmission of an audio file itself (e.g. flac, wav, mp3), NOT the transmission of an audio file that has been decoded and rendered into a timed, digital bitstream... the later is now what i believe swenson is discussing and this distinction was the source of the confusion generating my initial question.

    as a concrete example, consider an MSB DAC with an MSB network renderer module... according to MSB:

    The renderer receives the audio file from the media server and creates a digital music stream, where it’s sent and converted into analog audio by a DAC...

    The renderer needs a low jitter clock and clean power, provided by the MSB DAC’s master Femtosecond clock and its multi-rail isolated linear power supply.

    see this link for a great overall description of the network topology: http://www.msbtechnology.com/renderernetwork/

    in this topology, an encoded audio file is sent via ethernet to the renderer module which then decodes the file and converts it into a timed, digital bitstream using the DACs onboard master femtosecond clock. here, there is no re-clocking as the MSB DAC is creating the timed, bitstream itself.

    i agree that the re-clocking of a timed, digital bitstream can be influenced by upstream clocks with the amount of such influence, if any, being DAC specific. however, this still leaves open the question of whether ethernet is used to transmit this type data... anyone know of a DAC that accepts a timed, digital bitstream over ethernet? my understanding is that rendered files are usually send to a DAC via optical or coaxial s/pdif, aes/ebu, usb, etc.

    finally and to further clarify, the above discussion is only concerned with data transmission and is separate from a discussion of electrical noise such as RFI, EMI, etc. that can be transmitted alongside the bitstream.
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  42. #392

    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by aKnyght View Post
    see this link for a great overall description of the network topology: http://www.msbtechnology.com/renderernetwork/

    in this topology, an encoded audio file is sent via ethernet to the renderer module which then decodes the file and converts it into a timed, digital bitstream using the DACs onboard master femtosecond clock. here, there is no re-clocking as the MSB DAC is creating the timed, bitstream itself.

    i agree that the re-clocking of a timed, digital bitstream can be influenced by upstream clocks with the amount of such influence, if any, being DAC specific. however, this still leaves open the question of whether ethernet is used to transmit this type data... anyone know of a DAC that accepts a timed, digital bitstream over ethernet? my understanding is that rendered files are usually send to a DAC via optical or coaxial s/pdif, aes/ebu, usb, etc.
    The MSB renderer does not create anything as such, it just receives a signal originating from the NAS, which is transmitted via the router. Same in either MSB topology situation.

    This signal can be transferred from the NAS or router via Ethernet, USB, AES, S/PDIF etc. depending on your setup. Ethernet just has the advantage, that it is using TCP/IP error correction (QoS), which ensures that the bits are received in the order they were sent.

    The renderer, as would any DAC, is then re-clocking the signal.

    PS: Funny thing about this MSB picture is, that it is inaccurate. The mobile device only interacts with the renderer/ DAC, i.e. Roon endpoint or UPnP client, depending on your setup. Not the router and the NAS. That is done by the DAC/ renderer.


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  43. #393
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by aKnyght View Post
    thanks for this information!! very helpful in putting all the pieces together.

    to clarify: i am referring to ethernet transmission of an audio file itself (e.g. flac, wav, mp3), NOT the transmission of an audio file that has been decoded and rendered into a timed, digital bitstream... the later is now what i believe swenson is discussing and this distinction was the source of the confusion generating my initial question.

    as a concrete example, consider an MSB DAC with an MSB network renderer module... according to MSB:

    The renderer receives the audio file from the media server and creates a digital music stream, where it’s sent and converted into analog audio by a DAC...

    The renderer needs a low jitter clock and clean power, provided by the MSB DAC’s master Femtosecond clock and its multi-rail isolated linear power supply.

    see this link for a great overall description of the network topology: http://www.msbtechnology.com/renderernetwork/

    in this topology, an encoded audio file is sent via ethernet to the renderer module which then decodes the file and converts it into a timed, digital bitstream using the DACs onboard master femtosecond clock. here, there is no re-clocking as the MSB DAC is creating the timed, bitstream itself.

    i agree that the re-clocking of a timed, digital bitstream can be influenced by upstream clocks with the amount of such influence, if any, being DAC specific. however, this still leaves open the question of whether ethernet is used to transmit this type data... anyone know of a DAC that accepts a timed, digital bitstream over ethernet? my understanding is that rendered files are usually send to a DAC via optical or coaxial s/pdif, aes/ebu, usb, etc.

    finally and to further clarify, the above discussion is only concerned with data transmission and is separate from a discussion of electrical noise such as RFI, EMI, etc. that can be transmitted alongside the bitstream.
    Hi aKnight (sorry I don't know your actual name),
    It took me a while to read and understand your comment above, but upon reflection, no, I don't think there are any differences with the examples I gave above to your situation or the situation or that John Swenson was discussing. In fact, I think they are one and the same.

    Just to start off, all the info I posted above was specifically speaking to your your point above: "I am referring to ethernet transmission of an audio file itself (e.g. flac, wav, mp3)". Well, that file has to go to....something, either an endpont,network bridge, or render, or if it has an RJ45 port, the DAC itself.

    Its exactly this tranmission of a digital audio file on some form of storage media on a computer, server, NAS, etc., to a destination, e.g., an endpoint, renderer, network bridge, or DAC that Swenson was specifically referring to. The ethernet (or USB) transmission from any point A to point B IS a bitstream, and this is exactly the situation that a number of the problems that John Swenson described occurs. The PHY chip in an Ethernet subsystem pulls the digital file from the MAC layer, and sends it as analog square waves along the Ethernet (or fiber) cable to the to the downstream Ethernet port, whether that port is an endpoint, renderer, network bridge, Ethernet suppored DAC, whatever. From Wikipedia: "the Ethernet PHY is a chip that implements the hardware send and receive function of Ethernet frames; it interfaces between the analog domain of the Ethernet's line modulation and the digital domain of link-layer packet signaling.

    The very same functionality and attendant problems with EMI/RF noise, clock phase noise, galvanic isolation, etc., also applies to the USB/SPDIF path from the endpoint, renderer, network bridge to a DAC.

    So, when you say: "NOT the transmission of an audio file that has been decoded and rendered into a timed, digital bitstream", with all due respect, I think this description is incomplete, and thereby, inaccurate. Any time you send a request to a digital system to send a digital file to some other "place", there is a conversion from the digital domain of link-layer packet signalling via the MAC to either a Ethernet or USB PHY chip to convert it to analog squarewares to send it to its respective destination; where its received by the downstream receiver/PHY chip. Moreover, any device that tranmits digital-sourced data, whether it be a cable modem, router, music server, NAS, Ethernet switch, renderer, network bridge, or DAC, has a clock. If the upstream clocks for the "generic IT stuff" (the router, music server, NAS, Ethernet switch) are sh*tty, then you are going to have clock phase noise added at every stop along the path from one device to another. There's only so much the clock at the renderer or DAC end can do to fix these dirty fingerprints, as John puts it.

    Also, as far as I understand it, the renderer/streamer/network bridge does not do any decoding, that is the solely function of the D/A convertor in the DAC.

    Lastly, I think the information from MSB is written in a way that is misleading with respect to the accuracy of what is actually happening, functionally-speaking. From what I've read above from the MSB description, I don't think the renderer is decoding anything, unless it doing some sort of transformation that is not described, like converting PCM to oversampled DSD, etc. And the renderer doesn't correct the timing, the FEMTO clock sub-system of the DAC chip does. From what I can gather above, the description from MSB above is both confusing and inaccurate, unless my understanding of the what renderer is doing is completely off-base. The written description above looks like it was written by a marketing person, not an engineer like John Swenson.

    If you still have questions, you should take them directly to MSB, because I don't understand exactly what MSB is saying above; I find it ambiguous and misleading.

    Sorry I can't be of more help...

    -Stephen aka PC

  44. #394

    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    Also, as far as I understand it, the renderer/streamer/network bridge does not do any decoding, that is the solely function of the D/A convertor in the DAC.
    In MSB case, the renderer module does the first level conversion for MQA, the so-called unpacking. The remainder of the signal conversion is done in the DAC.

    In addition, in the MSB ladder DAC architecture the clock is separated from the DAC. In an IC based DAC it would be integrated.


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  45. #395
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuoppis View Post
    In MSB case, the renderer module does the first level conversion for MQA, the so-called unpacking. The remainder of the signal conversion is done in the DAC.

    In addition, in the MSB ladder DAC architecture the clock is separated from the DAC. In an IC based DAC it would be integrated.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Thanks for the clarification. aKnight did not mention that the render module does an MQA unfold; so per my comment above, the decoding is not from digital to analog, its from one digital form to another; basically like an ALAC file container being "unpacked" to an AIFF. The MSB clock, then, is on a separate subsystem within the MSB does the timing correction before the time-corrected signal is sent to the D/A subsystem. My guess is this is because the dedicated clock subsystem has higher functionality than a clock function embedded within a DAC chip itself.

    But none of that applies to the probems orginally described above of sending the digital file along an "Ethernet/optical Ethernet" path to from the server to the renderer (which I would assume is the first "port of call").

  46. #396

    GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    My guess is this is because the dedicated clock subsystem has higher functionality than a clock function embedded within a DAC chip itself.
    Incorrect. Reason is simply the ladder DAC architecture, which is less integrated than an IC architecture. The signal has actually to travel further between clocking and conversion in a ladder DAC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    But none of that applies to the probems orginally described above of sending the digital file along an "Ethernet/optical Ethernet" path to from the server to the renderer (which I would assume is the first "port of call").
    Again incorrect. MSB have both, an Ethernet and USB module. Thus it can apply, based on the DAC configuration.


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  47. #397
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuoppis View Post
    Incorrect. Reason is simply the ladder DAC architecture, which is less integrated than an IC architecture. The signal has actually to travel further between clocking and conversion in a ladder DAC.
    Thanks for the info. If I understand it then, because its a true ladder DAC, there is not actually a DAC "chip" that could incorporate a clock.

    Again incorrect. MSB have both, an Ethernet and USB module. Thus it can apply, based on the DAC configuration.
    Thus what can apply? Sorry, I still don't understand. I still don't know why all the signal degradation/failure modes, clock phase noise that Swenson has described that can occur along the path from the music file server to either MSB input (Ethernet or USB) could not have an impact on the signal integrity of the analog square waves that are being transmitted from the source to the destination.

  48. #398

    GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    Thanks for the info. If I undserstand it then, because its a true ladder DAC, there is not actually a DAC "chip" that could incorporate a clock.
    They are just separated, because when ladder DAC designs were invented it was not yet possible to integrate them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Puma Cat View Post
    Thus what can apply? Sorry I don't understand.
    The Ethernet question can apply in MSB case as well, if it is configured with an Ethernet renderer module.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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    Big rig: Brinkmann Taurus DD TT + 12.1 arm + Lyra Etna Lambda SL MC + HRS M3X2/ Cardas Clear Beyond phono/ Stillpoints LPI/ Brinkmann Edison mk2 phono + RöNT II Tube PS/ Synology NAS with Roon + HD Plex linear PSU + Shunyata HD/ AQ Vodka RJ45 + Aqvox Network Switch SE + AQ Diamond RJ45 into DAC/ Brinkmann Nyquist mk2/ Audionet Humboldt/ Cardas Clear Beyond ICs/ Kharma DB9-S 1.1 LS/ Inakustik Reference LS 4004 AIR/ Audioquest Niagara 5000/ Shunyata Alpha power (HC, Analogue, Digital)/ Finite Elemente Pagode Rack/ Stillpoints Ultra SS/ Vicoustic panels + Stillpoints Aperture II.

    Small rig: Naim UnitiServe/ Curious USB/ Tidal/ Linn Klimax DS3/ Shunyata Power cable/ Pass Labs INT-60/ Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II/ HiD Diamond 8/ Harbeth 30.2 40th Anniversary/ Shunyata Venom EU7 & Venom 3 HD.

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  49. #399
    Senior Member
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    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by aKnyght View Post
    my question concerns the case where an audio file is transmitted over ethernet to a "box" which then writes the file to storage (ssd) or to memory (ram) for either later access or caching... does that stored (at rest) file then contain the fingerprint of the upstream clock? if so, it would follow that the audio file has then been changed forever and that would then violate all the ethernet protocols governing error detection and correction.

    similarly, what about the case of a file transmitted (streamed) over ethernet to a box which then buffers the data for immediate use / rendering? even in this case, the presence of any fingerprint from the upstream clock would also seem to "permanently" change the file data, thereby, also violating ethernet error protocols?

    thanks in advance for any comments here to help further my understanding of this.
    After FLAC decompression, the digital bits 0 and 1 are always the same, regardless of what storage media it goes through. The fingerprint theory that was mentioned, for those who believe it, is about the phase noise of the clock (i.e. jitter) that feeds the DAC, not the digital 0 and 1 that feed the DAC.
    Peter Lie
    LUMIN Firmware Lead

  50. #400

    Re: GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter

    Quote Originally Posted by wklie View Post
    After FLAC decompression, the digital bits 0 and 1 are always the same, regardless of what storage media it goes through. The fingerprint theory that was mentioned, for those who believe it, is about the phase noise of the clock (i.e. jitter) that feeds the DAC, not the digital 0 and 1 that feed the DAC.
    I think there are a couple misconceptions here.

    In streaming, the audio signal is not stored anywhere, it is a pass through. Second, the audio stream is an analog signal, not zeros and ones. For different transport mechanisms it is just packaged in different ways.

    That is similar to different audio formats, where the actual content is always the same (except for the bitrate used for storage). The packaging algorithm just differs, some are more efficient than others. The various formats have different properties, and hence create varying levels of interference with the content.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    “Life’s too short to listen to bad audio.”

    Big rig: Brinkmann Taurus DD TT + 12.1 arm + Lyra Etna Lambda SL MC + HRS M3X2/ Cardas Clear Beyond phono/ Stillpoints LPI/ Brinkmann Edison mk2 phono + RöNT II Tube PS/ Synology NAS with Roon + HD Plex linear PSU + Shunyata HD/ AQ Vodka RJ45 + Aqvox Network Switch SE + AQ Diamond RJ45 into DAC/ Brinkmann Nyquist mk2/ Audionet Humboldt/ Cardas Clear Beyond ICs/ Kharma DB9-S 1.1 LS/ Inakustik Reference LS 4004 AIR/ Audioquest Niagara 5000/ Shunyata Alpha power (HC, Analogue, Digital)/ Finite Elemente Pagode Rack/ Stillpoints Ultra SS/ Vicoustic panels + Stillpoints Aperture II.

    Small rig: Naim UnitiServe/ Curious USB/ Tidal/ Linn Klimax DS3/ Shunyata Power cable/ Pass Labs INT-60/ Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II/ HiD Diamond 8/ Harbeth 30.2 40th Anniversary/ Shunyata Venom EU7 & Venom 3 HD.

    HP rig: MacBookAir/ Tidal/ Auralic Gemini 2000/ Sbooster LPSU/ Audeze LCD-2 Classic + WyWires Red/ Shunyata HD/ Shunyata Hydra 2/ Shunyata Venom.

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