MQA Discussion

[Mike]

Archimago not sure his real name would change much of the data/facts presented. All of which is out out there in extreme detail for anyone to review or refute.

My personal reasons have little to do with sound. If people like it, who am I to argue. However The business model and execution have a significant (negative) impact. Ask a mastering eng who spent his time and craft to get something perfected only to have it completely changed without any say or consent and is permanent.

Someone (bob) has pre determined what I should like



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In theory, doesn't MQA replace the mastering engineer? If we assume for a second that the album is recorded, it then goes to a Mastering Engineer for adjustment for final distribution, MQA assures us that the artist has signed off on this final Studio Master. So essentially, it removes the Mastering Engineer from the equation. So I ask, would you rather have some mastering engineer ultimately determine what you hear (based on format) or a final Master that the artist(s) have signed off on? This of course, as AJ has pointed out, assumes they are alive!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=6UPxNB8An6I

[Ritmo]

Over the last year, the only MQA music I’ve purchased was included as part of the latest Bob James CD. All of the MQA I’ve enjoyed is provided by Tidal.

So, to me, it’s not a big deal one way or another. My LUMIN supports MQA (which did not cost any additional dollars) and I stream Tidal. I don’t find ALL MQA recordings to sound better than the originals (many do but not all). And, I certainly will not buy my music collection one more time; I’ll use streaming to enjoy the better MQA recordings.

[Kingrex]

In theory, doesn't MQA replace the mastering engineer? If we assume for a second that the album is recorded, it then goes to a Mastering Engineer for adjustment for final distribution, MQA assures us that the artist has signed off on this final Studio Master. So essentially, it removes the Mastering Engineer from the equation. So I ask, would you rather have some mastering engineer ultimately determine what you hear (based on format) or a final Master that the artist(s) have signed off on? This of course, as AJ has pointed out, assumes they are alive!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=6UPxNB8An6I

If someone is waging $ in front of an artist??. Then again, who says the artist has any control over distribution or redistribution of their art.

[rbbert]

In theory, doesn't MQA replace the mastering engineer? If we assume for a second that the album is recorded, it then goes to a Mastering Engineer for adjustment for final distribution, MQA assures us that the artist has signed off on this final Studio Master. So essentially, it removes the Mastering Engineer from the equation. So I ask, would you rather have some mastering engineer ultimately determine what you hear (based on format) or a final Master that the artist(s) have signed off on? This of course, as AJ has pointed out, assumes they are alive!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=6UPxNB8An6I

I doubt this is true, for many reasons, starting with the fact that a large number of artists with MQA recordings are dead! Also, the major labels are churning out MQA versions in large batches, just using "their" MQA encoders on their existing hi-res catalogs; the artists are no more "signing off" on them than they are on the original releases (which means some are, some aren't)

[AJ Soundfield]

I doubt this is true, for many reasons, starting with the fact that a large number of artists with MQA recordings are dead!

You familiar with John Edward?

[Swisstrips]

In theory, doesn't MQA replace the mastering engineer? If we assume for a second that the album is recorded, it then goes to a Mastering Engineer for adjustment for final distribution, MQA assures us that the artist has signed off on this final Studio Master. So essentially, it removes the Mastering Engineer from the equation. So I ask, would you rather have some mastering engineer ultimately determine what you hear (based on format) or a final Master that the artist(s) have signed off on? This of course, as AJ has pointed out, assumes they are alive!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=6UPxNB8An6I

Why in the world wold you want to remove the mastering engineer. MQA sure as hell is not a mastering engineer, or I hope not. I don't follow your logic - the artists+ME have signed off on the final master. For MQA to come in and bulk undo everything that was mastered is so wrong. If that's their "authenticated" process, that's a lie and for the life of me don't understand how people are OK with that.

If the artist processed with MQA from start to finish that's different (if that's even being done), but that's not what any of this is about.

This hasn't even touched on the multitude of other items, but I digress.

[Jack]

Just follow the money!

[Mike]

Why in the world wold you want to remove the mastering engineer. MQA sure as hell is not a mastering engineer, or I hope not. I don't follow your logic - the artists+ME have signed off on the final master. For MQA to come in and bulk undo everything that was mastered is so wrong. If that's their "authenticated" process, that's a lie and for the life of me don't understand how people are OK with that.

If the artist processed with MQA from start to finish that's different (if that's even being done), but that's not what any of this is about.

This hasn't even touched on the multitude of other items, but I digress.

This is part of the topic that hasn't been discussed much. In my conversations with Mastering Engineer Bob Katz, he has been concerned about the role of the Mastering Engineer with respect to MQA. I am not either for or against the role of the Mastering Engineer as it relates to MQA, just merely discussing. DO NOT read anything into it. It's just curiosity on my part.

[Swisstrips]

This is part of the topic that hasn't been discussed much. In my conversations with Mastering Engineer Bob Katz, he has been concerned about the role of the Mastering Engineer with respect to MQA. I am not either for or against the role of the Mastering Engineer as it relates to MQA, just merely discussing. DO NOT read anything into it. It's just curiosity on my part.

it’s all good



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[Willco]

I don't know about the technical side but I do know you can hear a difference. Remember when we were young and had eq. Or at least I did. The big ADA 20 channel one. Inevitabley we would, or at least most I saw were a smiley face. Accentuating the highs and lows. I just listened to Led Zeppelin Lemon Song. I let HQ player do what it could between the base file and the MQA remaster. My DAC is not MQA. The remaster is more clear and has a lot more high frequency information. However, In finding the original more flat, I also found I heard the swing and rythem of John Bonhams drums more "in the groove". I rolled with the band more.

If the end of the graph is the addition of all that high frequency information, then I can see why many people gravitate to it. We think its added music. The clarity is another issue. It's nice and I don't see much reason to dislike it. But in the end, it's closing your eyes and getting into the groove that sets me free. Not analyzing the song. The original does it better, for me.

In 1968-69 I remember sitting around in the basement with my friends (we were 13) listening to King Crimson and Led Zeppelin, on vinyl of course. I just listened to the Lemon Song on Tidal, Mqa and non, and I was struck how awful this recording sounds on my system. Robert Plant sounds like he's singing through a tin can. The Lampizator doesn't unfold mqa fully but I can't imagine it provides a significant improvement.

It sounded a lot better in the basement in '69. Maybe my memory is colored. Maybe the vinyl master is also better? But one thing I'm sure of is that recorded music needs good recording and mastering. Everything else is secondary.

[nicoff]

In 1968-69 I remember sitting around in the basement with my friends (we were 13) listening to King Crimson and Led Zeppelin, on vinyl of course. I just listened to the Lemon Song on Tidal, Mqa and non, and I was struck how awful this recording sounds on my system. Robert Plant sounds like he's singing through a tin can. The Lampizator doesn't unfold mqa fully but I can't imagine it provides a significant improvement.

It sounded a lot better in the basement in '69. Maybe my memory is colored. Maybe the vinyl master is also better? But one thing I'm sure of is that recorded music needs good recording and mastering. Everything else is secondary.

Sounded better then?! What were you smoking?

[Al M.]

Sounded better then?! What were you smoking?

I know you made a joke, but seriously, why not? Can you give me a reason why it could not have sounded better back then? And if you can, please define 'better'.

[Willco]

I know you made a joke, but seriously, why not? Can you give me a reason why it could not have sounded better back then? And if you can, please define 'better'.

Maybe the vynl mastering was better than the CD mastering that Tidal is streaming? Or maybe our 13-year-old non-audiophile ears along with the low-fi stereo we were listening to made even the worst recording sound OK

[nicoff]

...
Or maybe our 13-year-old non-audiophile ears along with the low-fi stereo we were listening to made even the worst recording sound OK

That would be my theory.

[asindc]

Maybe the vynl mastering was better than the CD mastering that Tidal is streaming? Or maybe our 13-year-old non-audiophile ears along with the low-fi stereo we were listening to made even the worst recording sound OK

That would be my theory.

+1

[wklie]

Tidal’s Hi-Res Masters (MQA) tracks surpass one million

https://www.whathifi.com/news/tidals...ss-one-million

[wklie]

I posted this in the most anti-MQA forum on the planet, so I may as well repost it here:


Lumin supports MQA for a very specific reason: Tidal. We try our best to support whatever format designated by streaming services. Qobuz Hi-Res uses FLAC, that is good, there's very little extra work for us. Hypothetically, if Tidal adopted a proprietary and new version of WMA Hi-Res (instead of MQA) and offered those Hi-Res music at no extra cost to existing lossless subscribers, then we would have to support that as well. We support MQA not because of certain features of MQA - we support MQA because it is designated by Tidal. (Back then I did not expect there would be MQA CD, but now that MQA CD is a reality, this would have been a factor to drive us to support MQA as well.)

We did not fear of becoming irrelevant. We did fear our customers could not play the music they wanted to play at the best possible quality using our products, regardless of whether it is Tidal Master or MQA CD. Unlike many network DAC, Lumin does not have any digital input whatsoever. We could not even tell Tidal customers to use Tidal desktop app for MQA Core decoding, because without digital input our products cannot be used with Tidal desktop app. Back then no third party add-on solution existed for our products to decode Tidal Master, so we had to implement it by ourselves.

There are members [in the other forum] who do not believe there are customers who ask for MQA. Check out the old threads in Roon forum and you'll see there were many, before Roon added MQA support in version 1.5. I explained there people wanted that because at that time Tidal is the only streaming service Roon integrated with, and Tidal Master is free to existing lossless subscribers. Free music is important for many people, although [some people] disagreed and I respect that. Some may question how long can Tidal offer Tidal Master at no extra cost, or even how sustainable their business is, or it may become less important if it is integrated to Roon as rumored and then everybody switches to Qobuz Sublime+ (EUR299.99 annual), but those possibilities are in the future. At this point in time, there are people who use Tidal.

[Mike]

I posted this in the most anti-MQA forum on the planet, so I may as well repost it here:


Lumin supports MQA for a very specific reason: Tidal. We try our best to support whatever format designated by streaming services. Qobuz Hi-Res uses FLAC, that is good, there's very little extra work for us. Hypothetically, if Tidal adopted a proprietary and new version of WMA Hi-Res (instead of MQA) and offered those Hi-Res music at no extra cost to existing lossless subscribers, then we would have to support that as well. We support MQA not because of certain features of MQA - we support MQA because it is designated by Tidal. (Back then I did not expect there would be MQA CD, but now that MQA CD is a reality, this would have been a factor to drive us to support MQA as well.)

We did not fear of becoming irrelevant. We did fear our customers could not play the music they wanted to play at the best possible quality using our products, regardless of whether it is Tidal Master or MQA CD. Unlike many network DAC, Lumin does not have any digital input whatsoever. We could not even tell Tidal customers to use Tidal desktop app for MQA Core decoding, because without digital input our products cannot be used with Tidal desktop app. Back then no third party add-on solution existed for our products to decode Tidal Master, so we had to implement it by ourselves.

There are members [in the other forum] who do not believe there are customers who ask for MQA. Check out the old threads in Roon forum and you'll see there were many, before Roon added MQA support in version 1.5. I explained there people wanted that because at that time Tidal is the only streaming service Roon integrated with, and Tidal Master is free to existing lossless subscribers. Free music is important for many people, although [some people] disagreed and I respect that. Some may question how long can Tidal offer Tidal Master at no extra cost, or even how sustainable their business is, or it may become less important if it is integrated to Roon as rumored and then everybody switches to Qobuz Sublime+ (EUR299.99 annual), but those possibilities are in the future. At this point in time, there are people who use Tidal.

Peter - I remember years ago (when I was invited to hear the first MQA demo at CES), I told your boss that you guys should really look into it. I'm glad you guys were an early adopter! Lumin continues to provide exceptional service, after sale updates (for free) and much more to their cliental. It seems like only yesterday that you guys at Pixel Magic were barely a few months old. No one had ever heard of you, but I read some obscure post on the Linn Forum about this "Lumin" product. Nothing else. I tracked you guys down, sent an email and literally the next day, you overnighted me a Lumin (there was only one model) to review. Green paper packaging and all. I wrote my review: Lumin Review and the rest is history. In 5/6 short years, you guys have continued to go above and beyond for your customers, in your product development, etc. You also left Linn in the stoneages with their silly fight over DSD. You delivered a better product and half the price of the Linn and sounding better too. The rest is history.

[Kingsrule]

The old Roon threads clamoring for MQA are mostly from Meridian/Sooloos fan boys. There are those who think B Stuart walks on water....and they are still out there.

MQA is hanging on by a Tidal thread. And who really cares?

[asindc]

The old Roon threads clamoring for MQA are mostly from Meridian/Sooloos fan boys. There are those who think B Stuart walks on water....and they are still out there.

MQA is hanging on by a Tidal thread. And who really cares?

I do.

[Mike]

I do.

Me too.


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[Mike]

The newly remastered John Lennon Imagine is now available in MQA on Tidal.


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[Kingsrule]

I guess that makes 2....

Mike u should move this thread to its own category, it has nothing to do with computer /digital audio

[Randy Myers]

The newly remastered John Lennon Imagine is now available in MQA on Tidal.


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I have the SHM SACD of Imagine (of course ripped to the music server). Sound pretty darn good!

[Joe P]

Bob Stuart and MQA: AudioStream Podcast No.1:

https://www.audiostream.com/content/bob-stuart-and-mqa-audiostream-podcast-no1

[rchunter]

Does anyone know if Lumin has the ability to play stand alone MQA files from a NAS or is it strictly streaming from Tidal only when dealing with MQA?
I've been noticing there are a few audio download sites starting to sell hi-res MQA files for download.

Edit- never mind lol, I bought one and am playing it from my NAS to my A1 and it works fine.

[joeinid]

Welcome to the forum, thank you for joining.

[wklie]

Does anyone know if Lumin has the ability to play stand alone MQA files from a NAS or is it strictly streaming from Tidal only when dealing with MQA?
I've been noticing there are a few audio download sites starting to sell hi-res MQA files for download.

Yes, as you've already found. In addition, Lumin will play MQA CD rips too.

[chops]

Tidal’s Hi-Res Masters (MQA) tracks surpass one million

Yeah, 95% of those MQA tracks are rap and hip-hop. Nothing most of us care about.

They're slowly releasing "good" music in MQA, but not enough soon enough as far as I'm concerned.

[chops]

I do.

Me too.

Me three.

One of the nice things about running on of these Bluesound Node 2's is that it fully unfolds MQA, and can also unfold the first half before letting it lose out of the digital out, so you can still listen to it via a regular stand alone DAC, or get an MQA DAC to unfold the other half.

Honestly though, the REAL reason I got the Node 2 is because it plays gapless! Very important to me since I listen to a lot of classical music. That and the occasional Pink Floyd album which also greatly benefits from gapless playback. The whole MQA thing is just a bonus for me.

[still-one]

Yeah, 95% of those MQA tracks are rap and hip-hop. Nothing most of us care about.

They're slowly releasing "good" music in MQA, but not enough soon enough as far as I'm concerned.

I guess you actually haven't looked over the running list of MQA releases. Rap and hip-hop are nowhere near the majority of titles available in MQA.

[Mike]

I guess you actually haven't looked over the running list of MQA releases. Rap and hip-hop are nowhere near the majority of titles available in MQA.

The latest list:

https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/MQA...jNi1_jkQzz74iw

[still-one]

Mike
Not sure if your list is based of this unformatted version that is listed in alphabetical order. It can be loaded into a spreadsheet and formatted as required.

http://www.meridianunplugged.com/downloads/MQA_List.csv

[Mike]

Mike
Not sure if your list is based of this unformatted version that is listed in alphabetical order. It can be loaded into a spreadsheet and formatted as required.

http://www.meridianunplugged.com/downloads/MQA_List.csv

Thanks!


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[chops]

I guess you actually haven't looked over the running list of MQA releases. Rap and hip-hop are nowhere near the majority of titles available in MQA.

No I haven't. I didn't know there was some "running list" of MQA releases. I just go onto Tidal and start scrolling through the new MQA album releases. Granted, there's a lot of new "good" music coming out in MQA, but there's still quite the plethora of rap/hip-hop in there. Again, this is just from viewing the new album releases, not some list I know nothing about.

[still-one]

No I haven't. I didn't know there was some "running list" of MQA releases. I just go onto Tidal and start scrolling through the new MQA album releases. Granted, there's a lot of new "good" music coming out in MQA, but there's still quite the plethora of rap/hip-hop in there. Again, this is just from viewing the new album releases, not some list I know nothing about.

The link to the list has noted in several forums and threads in the past. It is usually updated weekly. You may not be aware but the "Masters" list in Tidal is limited to about 450 MQA titles. A few new ones are added each week and approximatelhy the same number drop off. No one seems to know what criteria is used to determine what makes up that ~450 list of titles we are shown. It is possible that it is curated to show a grater proportion of rap/hip hop MQA titles than is available in general.

According to some statistics I have seen Rap/Hip Hop has passed rock to become the largest selling genre. Even if these sale numbers are skewed by a few blockbuster releases I would assume we would still expect to see a greater proportion of this genre being released going forward.

[rbbert]

Yeah, 95% of those MQA tracks are rap and hip-hop. Nothing most of us care about.

They're slowly releasing "good" music in MQA, but not enough soon enough as far as I'm concerned.

I don't follow the available MQA titles closely, but even I know there is a tremendous amount of classical and older jazz available as MQA on Tidal.

[chops]

The link to the list has noted in several forums and threads in the past. It is usually updated weekly. You may not be aware but the "Masters" list in Tidal is limited to about 450 MQA titles. A few new ones are added each week and approximatelhy the same number drop off. No one seems to know what criteria is used to determine what makes up that ~450 list of titles we are shown. It is possible that it is curated to show a grater proportion of rap/hip hop MQA titles than is available in general.

According to some statistics I have seen Rap/Hip Hop has passed rock to become the largest selling genre. Even if these sale numbers are skewed by a few blockbuster releases I would assume we would still expect to see a greater proportion of this genre being released going forward.

I still haven't found this "list" you're referring to. I've found a couple of lists, both on this forum and others, but most look like they haven't been updated since mid-2017. I must be missing something somewhere.

Thanks for the lesson on how those titles are posted and how they come and go on the "Masters" list. I too noticed that there were some albums that came and went.

No further comments on the whole rap/hip-hop thing for me. That genre is exactly why I don't listen to the radio anymore these days. All of the pop, rock and jazz stations are gone. They all, and I do mean all of them, have converted over to rap/hip-hop stations. There's only a couple of rock stations still, one of which is near impossible to pick up in my area, the other that plays all of that newer angry rock music stuff. And one easy listening station that fades in and out all the time. Oh, and a local country station that comes in loud and clear, that I definitely don't listen to. Anywho...

[chops]

I don't follow the available MQA titles closely, but even I know there is a tremendous amount of classical and older jazz available as MQA on Tidal.

I noticed last night when I was doing a search on Donald Byrd, probably about half of his albums on Tidal are now MQA. I've noticed that with several other artists as well, just like my search for Rush tonight. Quite a few of their's are also MQA.

I now realize that I can't rely on just what Tidal posts in their "Masters" list.

[wklie]

I still haven't found this "list" you're referring to. I've found a couple of lists, both on this forum and others, but most look like they haven't been updated since mid-2017.

I now realize that I can't rely on just what Tidal posts in their "Masters" list.

List in CSV file (dated Oct 2018 at this moment, continually updated):
https://www.meridianunplugged.com/ub...&Number=268318

The Tidal Masters folder is a really small set of human-edited recommendations only. There is no way to search for all MQA albums directly using Tidal.

[chops]

Excellent. Thank you for the link!

[still-one]

Mike
Not sure if your list is based of this unformatted version that is listed in alphabetical order. It can be loaded into a spreadsheet and formatted as required.

http://www.meridianunplugged.com/downloads/MQA_List.csv

You can tell when the list was last updated by the 3rd line in the file. Example of the first few lines of the link I posted is below.

--------------------------------
This file has been downloaded from http://www.meridianunplugged.com - please see this original post regarding this file and updates:
http://www.meridianunplugged.com/ubb...&Number=268318

Last Updated: 27/10/2018 22:52:51

* The file is a CSV format. It’s just raw text which Excel should open fine (In Europe you may need to use the ‘Text to Columns’ feature in excel - Youtube Tutorial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8hH-PSRDOw )

[rchunter]

I noticed last night when I was doing a search on Donald Byrd, probably about half of his albums on Tidal are now MQA. I've noticed that with several other artists as well, just like my search for Rush tonight. Quite a few of their's are also MQA.

I now realize that I can't rely on just what Tidal posts in their "Masters" list.

Onkyo music is selling quite a few of the new rush MQA /flac files. Also Led Zeppelin and Alice cooper.
I bought a couple the other day. . So there is more and more popular music being released every day.


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[Alpinist]

I am greatly enjoying MQA files from Tidal through my Roon software, Nucleus Plus and Select II DAC. Most files are significantly better than their Redbook counterpart. I don’t fret whether or not the MQA files on Tidal are better than their High Res. equivalent. I just treat MQA as Tidal’s version of High Res. and all is well.

Ken

[nicoff]

I am greatly enjoying MQA files from Tidal through my Roon software, Nucleus Plus and Select II DAC. Most files are significantly better than their Redbook counterpart. I don’t fret whether or not the MQA files on Tidal are better than their High Res. equivalent. I just treat MQA as Tidal’s version of High Res. and all is well.

Ken

Looks like you put the money in the digital component where it really matters: the DAC. Congratulations!

[bzr]

I am greatly enjoying MQA files from Tidal through my Roon software, Nucleus Plus and Select II DAC. Most files are significantly better than their Redbook counterpart. I don’t fret whether or not the MQA files on Tidal are better than their High Res. equivalent. I just treat MQA as Tidal’s version of High Res. and all is well.

Ken

Ken, thats exactly what I'm doing with tidal, works for me.

[rbbert]

The recent David Bowie "Live at Glastonbury 2000" hi-res files from Qobuz appear to play back as MQA on my Oppo 205? I've heard there is some discussion about this at the Roon forums. can anyone here enlighten me?

[still-one]

The recent David Bowie "Live at Glastonbury 2000" hi-res files from Qobuz appear to play back as MQA on my Oppo 205? I've heard there is some discussion about this at the Roon forums. can anyone here enlighten me?

Initially I am not finding this album in Tidal. Let me look some more.

[still-one]

Yes I found it. There are two versions on Tidal. A CD quality 16/44.1 and a MQA 24/48.

[rbbert]

my question related more to discussions at Roon about the Qobuz download, which is described only as "24-48 hi-res", no mention of MQA.