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Thread: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
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December 18, 2015, 06:51 PM #1
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Opinions on Lafon gm70's
I bought these used form another fella a few months ago and replaced all of the tubes. They've had plenty of time to break in now and I wanted to share some high level general impressions and see if they jive with what others who've lived with these amps have experienced.
I moved up from the Cortese which I loved. The Cortese had this amazing sweetness and consistency where everything just sounded really amazing. For a little stereo amp, even the bass sounded great. The only weakness was that I felt that the Cortese just wasn't totally enveloping. I REALLY value the depth of the soundstage. I like that feeling of being sucked into the music. While the Cortese made everything sound absolutely wonderful, it just didn't always get me inside the music.
FYI, for context I also have the Shindo 604's, Vosne Romanee, Shindo Interconnects, A23 speaker cable, Brinkmann Oasis with Graham Phantom II Supreme and a Koetsu Blue Lace (stone body).
The Lafon's were the amps I did my original auditions with and the amp I coveted. So when a pair came up for sale, I jumped on them.
I won't belabor the point, but when they arrived they were not well packed and the tubes were bent & some were broken. I replaced all tubes and had a tech open the amps up and he had to re-solder a connection or two.
Once all of this was done and my speakers were adjusted, I got to listening. First thing I noticed was how enveloping the sound was. EXACTLY what I was looking for. Now, not all source material does this. But when the source material has that quality, the Lafon's are simply insane. I've had more than a few transcendental moments which I won't describe for fear that it would be used to put me in a mental ward one day.
That said, the issue I have is that the Lafon's seem to have one and only one sweet spot with regards to where the volume has to be on any given album. The music just doesn't sound all that great at low volumes and as soon as you go too loud, it starts to distort. You gotta get it just right or it seems off and usually "just right" means cranked pretty loud.
Now part of it may be that the Lafon's just sound so amazing when you have that enveloping source material and I'm subconsciously seeking that out on material that just won't ever get me there. But I can't help but wonder if this is just a weakness with this particular amp OR if maybe there's damage to the amp itself that is causing these subtle sonic annoyances.
The Lafon is still the most amp I've ever heard. But it lacks the consistent sweetness that my Cortese had, begs to be turned way up and is prone to some graininess if everything is not juuuuust right.
Any of you guys who have lived with this amp have similar or different experiences?
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December 18, 2015, 06:57 PM #2
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Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
I should add that it isn't always just a "get the volume right" thing. Sometimes it just doesn't sound right no matter how much I tweak the volume. I'd describe it as a slight hint of graininess, which I seem especially sensitive to and which the Cortese NEVER had.
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December 18, 2015, 07:08 PM #3
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Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
Hmmm--- I was wondering when someone would have Transit hiccups with Tubes--I did notice Shindo amps -well the ones I've seen anyway-- are packed with the Tubes installed in place.
re the "graininess"the Amps seemingly are particularly sensitive to correct and matched NOS(read factory supplied) tubes--possibility you choice is not fully compatible ,or lacking in synergy with those particular Amps
Importer check maybe ?
Good luck
Bruce
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December 18, 2015, 07:10 PM #4
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Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
Dealers don't send tubes installed. They are packed separately. But this was not bought from a dealer.
The dealer did provide NOS replacements though (thanks again Matt!).
I'm just trying to find out if what I'm describing is common to this amp or if I need to have it checked out. It's mostly spectacular, but just not 100% consistent the way my Cortese was. Loved that damn amp. Just wish it had more ummmmph.
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December 18, 2015, 09:59 PM #5
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December 19, 2015, 04:38 PM #6
Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
Chris
Garrard 301, SME 2012r, EMT TSD15, A23 T2 Hommage SUT, Shindo Montille, Shindo Aurieges, Shindo ICs and Auditorium Speaker Cables, Auditorium A23 Hommage 755a Speakers.
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December 19, 2015, 08:04 PM #7
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Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
I lived with the Shindo GM 70's for four years in an all Shindo system. I experienced some of the issues you bring up but eventually solved them by finding the right "attenuation" with my pre-amp, which was a WE Giscours. By trial and error I found that if I adjusted the attenuators on the amps between 12 and 3 it would allow me to listen at the level I wanted to with the Giscours volume between 10 and 1--it's sweet spot. I didn't adjust the amps attenuators for each disc; most of the time they were left at 2pm. This made a huge difference in the way I was brought into the music. With the amps' attenuators at full blast, I found aggressive but not seductive (maybe there was more punch but it wasn't worth it--at least to me). Another thing I learned: the amps are very sensitive to the surface they're on. I tried maple at first--no go. Metal (Symposium shelves)--no go. Then I glued together two 3/4" pieces of Baltic Birch. Yes Indeed. I now have a Box Furniture rack. Even more Yes Indeed. And of course, all Shindo gear hates to sit on anything but their own feet.
Try messing with the amps' attenuators and your pre-amp's volume. Interested to hear if it makes a difference for you.
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December 19, 2015, 08:39 PM #8
Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
welcome to the forum jazzmatazz, thank you for joining.
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December 20, 2015, 05:58 PM #9
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December 20, 2015, 08:03 PM #10
Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
Briguy, I keep the WE300b at about twelve thirty. Like yours, my speakers are 100db and 16ohm. The amps sit on a Box Furniture rack.
Bill
Shindo Giscours
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December 20, 2015, 08:33 PM #11
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Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
Planning to upgrade to the Giscours next year. My understanding is that it's a whole other level of refinement.
I I haven't heard the 300b's yet. Do you have any experience with the gm70's to be able to compare and contrast the sonic differences, strengths and weaknesses?
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December 20, 2015, 09:56 PM #12
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Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
When you turn it up, it distorts in BOTH channels. Not taking anything away from the Giscours, but you have a wonderful preamp there. Cheers -Don
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December 22, 2015, 05:25 PM #13
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Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
Looks like I didn't actually have the attenuators adjusted. I really though I had adjusted these, but apparently not. Testing it out now, but have some questions.
What exactly are the attenuators doing?
Seems like if I turn them down between 12 and 3, I just have to turn the volume on the pre amp up. I haven't busted out the SPL meter yet to make sure I'm making level-matched comparisons, but I'm not sure I'm hearing much difference.
As I turn the attenuators down and the pre amp volume knob up, what predictable effect should we hear?
Also, I've been noticing a lot of bass energy feedback lately. This seems to go up significantly when I turn the attenuators down and pre amp volume knob up to reach a similar SPL Level. Is that normal?
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December 22, 2015, 07:32 PM #14
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Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
I'm not sure, technically, what the attenuators are doing. All I know is they attenuate the power output of the amp.
The predictable effect I heard by having my amp attenuators around 2pm and my pre-amp volume between 10 and 1 was that the music was more engaging, the tonal balance more seductive.
I'm not sure what "bass energy feedback" is, so I can't respond to what is normal. You have a different pre-amp than I, so maybe you're having to turn up your pre-amp volume too high and are getting distortion.Shindo Petite Latour speakers, Shindo WE Giscours pre-amp, Shindo 301 Record Player, Auditorium 23 Hommage 1 SUT, Pass Labs XA 30.8 amp, PS Audio Directstream DAC, Music Vault M7 music server, Entreq Siller Tellus, WW Platinum Starlight AES/EBU, WW Balanced Platinum 7 (pre to amp); Hi Fi cables everywhere else, Stillpoint Ultra 5's under speakers, Stillpoints Ultra SS under rack, Stillpoint Aperture room acoustics panels (5)
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December 22, 2015, 07:50 PM #15
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Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
I've sent these questions to Matt, so I'll see what he says. I also have to take into account all of the adjustable settings available on the 604's. Just not sure if this is primarily an art or science endeavor. Science would be nice, especially if we could say, 'In your size room, you should have the speakers set at "x", the amps at "y" and the pre amp at "z".' At least as a starting point.
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January 4, 2016, 02:27 AM #16
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Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
My new amp from Shindo came with a sheet of paper saying not to go past 3 o'clock with the attenuators as damage may occur. Only mentioning this since one poster mentioned going full blast on his.
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January 4, 2016, 09:42 AM #17
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January 4, 2016, 10:39 AM #18
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January 4, 2016, 12:10 PM #19
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Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
Well, I guess that's good to know, even if it's too late now. Hope I haven't done damage, but something tells me that I have given the issues I continue to experience. Bummer that neither my Cortese or Lafon's came with that warning sheet. Actually, I suspect these issues already existed when I bought the Lafon's since they've been there from the beginning. I purchased the Lafon's second hand though since they are in production anymore. Again, big bummer.
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January 4, 2016, 06:24 PM #20
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Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
This is NEWS to me. My understanding is the attenuators were fine anywhere. Simply a matter of preference, or to allow one to open up their PREAMP VC more....
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January 4, 2016, 06:33 PM #21
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January 4, 2016, 07:23 PM #22
Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
Mine are set at 3 o'clock
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January 4, 2016, 07:32 PM #23
Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
Welcome to the forum Logey, thank you for joining.
Fleetwood Deville by Oswald Mills Audio, Vienna Acoustics Haydn Jubilee, Wharfedale Linton w/ stands, Klipsch RB-75, Klipsch RP-160M.
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January 4, 2016, 08:28 PM #24
Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
Nice system (which is identical to mine)! Listening at low volumes will take, as you may guess by now, some experimentation with amp attenuators, pre volume and definitely speaker settings. As t the distortion, that might be due to amp damage. I've never experienced that with my gm70. We're the repairs done by the recommended tech in the U.S.?
As for the directions from Shindo on the attenuator use, every Shindo manual that I've had has come with different documentation / recommendations.
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January 5, 2016, 12:32 AM #25
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Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
Maybe unrelated, but you have such a killer system paired with an oddly matched cart, arm, and SUT. Have you ever thought about changing that? I bet you're missing out on quite a lot. Koetsu is very low compliance, yet you have it attached to such a light arm. Then I think you have the A23 Hommage step up, which is another bad match by all accounts with Koetsu.
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January 5, 2016, 04:59 PM #26
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Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
I have a new table coming this week (Artisan Fidelity Garrard 301) with an Ikeda arm for the Koetsu and a Schroeder CB-1 for a Miyajima Zero mono cart. Matt thought I should wait to see if the table and new setup fixes the issue before sending to the repair tech in Arizona.
I also just picked up the new EMT JSD Platinum (P 6.0 I guess it's called) that I'll have on my second headshell.
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January 5, 2016, 05:01 PM #27
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January 5, 2016, 10:00 PM #28
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Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
Because it's not made for Koetsu? The A23 SUTs are purpose built for EMT, Shindo, and certain Ortofon SPUs. You should read this thread, especially the posts by Ekki.
http://www.audioaficionado.org/shind...ew-member.html
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January 5, 2016, 10:26 PM #29
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Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
Actually, you should probably give it a read first since you seem mis/under-informed.
A23 makes two versions of their SUTs. One for SPU style carts like the Shindo, EMT, etc. and another for non-SPU style carts.
My SUT mates perfectly well with my Koetsu. Is it possible that there is a better impedance match with another SUT by a different manufacturer? Maybe. But I'm getting pretty good sound from what I have.
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January 5, 2016, 10:32 PM #30
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Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
You might want to research that some more. The T1 is for the Shindo and certain Ortofon SPU. The T2 is for 22ohm EMT carts. Any SUT will "work" with any cart, but if you want the best match and sound a Koetsu with a Hommage won't be it.
Also, keep in mind the EMT carts are 1mv so the T2 is designed accordingly.
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January 5, 2016, 10:59 PM #31
Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
Beautiful table. Over the course of my audio travels, I've used Schroder and Ikeda arms and loved them both (to be fair, though, I bought Ikeda back in the good days where you had to buy through 2juki on eBay and the cost was 1/3 of the cost with US distribution).
I've still got a few Garrads in the house: a nice 301 refurbished by Audio Grail that I'm about to put in a nice, but quite cheap, plinth and a 401 in a plinth from a known plinth builder that looks a bit similar to your design and cost 15x what I just paid for the plinth for the 301. I've had many Garrads and am not quite sold on some of the implementations. The cost, anyway. I've got plinths, bearings and platters coming out my ears and IMO the worst audio money I spent was the plinth for my 401. Looks good. Beyond that, not worth it.
The Shindo approach, the A23 plinth, these I think have merit in the context of a well designed cohesive system. Like anything else.
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January 5, 2016, 11:41 PM #32
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Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
Like I said, there may be better matches, but I'm getting pretty phenomenal sound. Your post referenced the SUT meant for the SPU style carts, which I don't have. I haven't had the luxury of owning multiple SUT's and the T2 is pretty versatile.
In fact, I think it was Art Dudley who did a review of a bunch of SUT's and found that the A23 Hommage mated better with his Koetsu cart than the Koetsu SUT "made" for it. Different Hommage and different Koetsu cart, but goes to show that what might work "best" on paper doesn't necessarily translate to the real world.
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January 5, 2016, 11:45 PM #33
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Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
Yeah, we'll see how this turns out. You can't really audition tables at this level prior to purchase, particularly since it is custom built.
Since Shindo isn't making their table anymore for the foreseeable future, this seemed like the best route. It's definitely a beautiful table.
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January 5, 2016, 11:50 PM #34
Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
Chris
Garrard 301, SME 2012r, EMT TSD15, A23 T2 Hommage SUT, Shindo Montille, Shindo Aurieges, Shindo ICs and Auditorium Speaker Cables, Auditorium A23 Hommage 755a Speakers.
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January 6, 2016, 12:37 AM #35
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January 6, 2016, 12:37 AM #36
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January 6, 2016, 12:39 AM #37
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January 6, 2016, 12:51 AM #38
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January 6, 2016, 01:00 AM #39
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Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
I also don't perform lasik surgery on myself, fill my own cavities or build my own cars.
Sure, I could do those things. But I prefer to exchange the money I earn doing what I do well for products and services done well by those who do them best. I guess I value my own time and the expertise of others more than you do.
Another case of more mouth than manners, maybe you'll figure things out someday.
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January 6, 2016, 01:07 AM #40
Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
Chris
Garrard 301, SME 2012r, EMT TSD15, A23 T2 Hommage SUT, Shindo Montille, Shindo Aurieges, Shindo ICs and Auditorium Speaker Cables, Auditorium A23 Hommage 755a Speakers.
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January 6, 2016, 09:39 AM #41
Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
There is the Spec. I'd like to hear it, but I like Garrads.
Didn't Jeff Day just write up your model as his "Garrard project"? I'll have to check that out, though I confess to having a difficult time reading Jeff and cutting through his folksy simple style and seemingly compulsive need to be an audio anthropologist (and getting many of the fine details wrong along the way to his questionable conclusions). On second thought, I'll skip Jeff and wait to hear your thoughts.
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January 6, 2016, 12:18 PM #42
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Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
The Spec does look interesting.
Jeff has the same plinth, assuming Artisan Fidelity hasn't changed their approach a little. But he had someone else refurbish his Garrard and is obviously using different arms. He's also using the motor from a 401.
My Garrard build is using a rebuilt 301 motor along with an aluminum Chassis CNC'd from a solid block of aluminum which Chris says improves on the strength of the stock chassis which had some weak points. I won't have a way to compare to a stick chassis, but artisan fidelity claims the benefits are clearly audible. We shall see.
I will let you know how it sounds.
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January 6, 2016, 12:55 PM #43
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Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
Anyone know the pricing on the spec table?
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January 6, 2016, 12:58 PM #44
Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
Matt has one in shop.
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January 6, 2016, 01:45 PM #45
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Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
It was being offered awhile back as a package with EMT 997 for around $24k, but that was special introductory pricing 6 months ago so you'll have to call Matt to see what it is now.
I I like the look of it, but it wasn't quite what I was looking for aesthetically and I haven't heard it at all. Matt loves it though, so it must be special.
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January 6, 2016, 07:44 PM #46
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Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
OK, I've read the entire post you referenced. My apologies for the defensiveness. I guess I took issue with your early characterization of the T2 being a bad match for the Koetsu. Having lived with it, I can say that it makes plenty of magic. Like I said before, there may be better matches, but I was still getting phenomenal sound from the pairing.
That said, I already knew the T2 Homage was a "perfect" fit for EMT carts which is why I already had one on order which I had mentioned in the prior post. But I was led to believe that theT2 Homage was a much better fit for the Koetsu than perhaps it is, which make me think that the new Miyajima Zero mono cart I have on the way might also be better served by a different SUT.
I was already planning to get a second SUT, so perhaps I'll do that sooner than later now. Again, apologies for the defensiveness.
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January 8, 2016, 11:35 AM #47
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Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
DALE
Main system: Shindo Masseto, Shindo Cortese, Devore Orangutan O/96, Thorens TD125 MkII by Artisan Fidelity, Ortofon RS-309D, Ortofon SPU Classic, W4S modded Sonos, Metrum dac, Shindo
and Auditorium A23 cables.
Second system: Accuphase E-280, B & W CWM7.3 S2, W4S modded Sonos,Metrum dac, A23 cables
Garage system: Yamaha A-S2100 integrated, JBL PRO 3677, Sonos thru Cambridge Dac Magic.
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January 9, 2016, 01:45 PM #48
Opinions on Lafon gm70's
What's the eta on your table? I've been aware of the solid chassis for the 301 for some time from Stefano's blog but have so far disregarded it as coming from that category of cottage industry products that are spawned in the wake of Internet reports like Jeff's (see original plinth explosion following Jeff's original 6moons post). I'll admit to being biased. I was inexperienced with Garrards at that time and learned the hard way by buying one of the skeletal plinths from Terry Cain. Awful plinth. Totally the wrong approach. Hah...I remember conversations with Jonathan 10 years ago where he explained his theory on that design. I thought he was mad because I didn't go all in on a Shindo. I couldn't. Still haven't. Anyway, he was right on that one. I've "plinthed" (my word) a 1/2 dozen 301 since then.
To my point, I've been burned on some of these products that sprout up from these popular trends. Ive also had a few plinths from a popular maker and, having had an extremely negative experience on the second, am no longer convinced of the value proposition. In short, I probably could've purchased 2 Shindo 301 for what I have otherwise invested in the rag tag approach. Think what you want about the Shindo approach (you, generally, not YOU), I continue to say the the value of that approach lies in the final product, not the parts. If you like the Shindo sound, there was a guy who devoted his time to tuning each piece to *collectively* lead to the final destination. I know there are strong opinions as to whether that is truth, BS, cultism, hifi religion, ignorance, arrogance, a sales scam or some combination thereof. In my experience, it has caused more in lost sales than sales for the Shindo crew. Case in point, they could've sold 5,000 Shindo platters and probably twice as many SPU over the last 10 years. But they won't.
Recognizing that I'm not a measurements guy, it's the only approach that really makes sense to me. I'm interested to see how this table fits into the Shindo system. What voice does it speak with? Does it still have the Garrard strengths or is it now some weird Magicoesque device? There are reports to be audible improvements, but what? Totally curious and fascinated. I'm not at all dismissing the possibility for improvements. I'm not a Luddite. In addition to my Garrards and 124s, I've also had a number of modern tables, including a stunningly well built Brinkmann (that I used with the Shindo phono pre! Sacrilege!). I'm open to new ideas.
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January 9, 2016, 02:05 PM #49
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Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
Everything arrived yesterday. I have a lot going on this weekend, so won't get to get it all set up until Tuesday or Wednesday. I'll need to let it settle in a bit before reporting anything, but will keep you posted.
I I was planning to go the Shindo Player route, however, they're not going to be in production for the near future so it wasn't an option. I almost got a used one when it came up for sale, but it sold before I was sure I could pull the $$ together on such short notice.
In in the end it's all trade offs. Unless you get to live with both approaches for a significant period of time, I think it's hard to fairly evaluate the strengths/weaknesses of a table, particularly the Shindo vs Artisan Fidelity since the differences are likely to be subtle or more subtle than Shindo vs a modern belt-drive table.
For me personally, I put a high value on the aesthetics (I work in UX design), so the ability to customize the look via veneer selection was important. And I liked the idea of a dual arm table, something Shindo doesn't offer.
In in the end it's a leap of faith. It's an easier leap with the Shindo Player in the context of a full Shindo system since you know that you're staying with the original artistic vision. But that doesn't preclude other from sharing a similar vision, even if the execution is different (e.g. A23, Spec, EMT, etc are all approaching fidelity from a similar point of view even if they aren't made by Shindo).
It it may be that Chris at AF is this generation's Ken. Only time will tell. There's no doubt in my mind, however, that he is making far & away the most beautiful tables around. Others may disagree, but to my eyes he is doing something special that time will not forget. Hopefully the sound matches the beauty of the tables.
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January 9, 2016, 02:41 PM #50
Re: Opinions on Lafon gm70's
Chris
Garrard 301, SME 2012r, EMT TSD15, A23 T2 Hommage SUT, Shindo Montille, Shindo Aurieges, Shindo ICs and Auditorium Speaker Cables, Auditorium A23 Hommage 755a Speakers.
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Industry Participation Disclosure : The owner and administrator of Audioshark is the owner of Suncoast Audio LLC in Sarasota Florida. Suncoast Audio has a full brick and mortar presence in Sarasota with several great show rooms with many world class brands. More information can be found at http://www.suncoastaudio.com
Audioshark is a community of like minded individuals. Audioshark welcomes participation from all manufacturers and owners of all brands and products. It is our belief that online forums provide a community of like minded audiophiles and music lovers to encourage the growth of this wonderful hobby.
Sincerely,
The Audioshark.org Team
AudioShark forum is a leading forum site for High End Audio Discussion, Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater System Discussion, Best Home Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater Installation Discussion etc.
The AudioShark forum was created for sharing the passion of high-end Audio. We have Audiophiles from all over the world participating and sharing their knowledge. From novice to experts, you will find a friendly environment for discussing about High End Audio, Stereo System, Home Theater System, Home Stereo System, Home Theater Installation, Amplifiers, Speakers, Subwoofers, Integrated System, Acoustic treatments & Digital Room Corrections and many more.
At AudioShark, we also have incorporated an exciting Marketplace where members can peruse terrific buys on used gear, as well as meet dealers and discuss the purchase of new gear.
We are as crazy about this hobby as you are! So come on in and join us! Audioshark.org the Friendliest Audio Forum!
Industry Participation Disclosure : The owner and administrator of Audioshark is the owner of Suncoast Audio LLC in Sarasota Florida. Suncoast Audio has a full brick and mortar presence in Sarasota with several great show rooms with many world class brands. More information can be found at http://www.suncoastaudio.com
Audioshark is a community of like minded individuals. Audioshark welcomes participation from all manufacturers and owners of all brands and products. It is our belief that online forums provide a community of like minded audiophiles and music lovers to encourage the growth of this wonderful hobby.
Sincerely,
The Audioshark.org Team
i hear differences between streamers, the power supplies and the chassis material is audiable. A good streamer is a wise thing to invest in and they are absolutely not all the same.
Streamer selection