I'm thinking on a Thorens TD 125, to use with my Shindo

I'm looking at the Vinyl Nirvana TD-125 Long Base version. VN restores vintage Thorens, and puts them in new wood plinths. Dave at Vinyl Nirvana has an excellent rep. In case you're wondering, he does not do Idlers, so no Girard or Thorens 124 options there. My thought is to do an SME M2-12 or similar 12" Ortofon, and still run my TSD-15. I have the Tsd-15 SFL, but this arm would allow the option to do the heavier Tsd-15 in in the head shell. My Amadeus GTA of course, does not give me this option. Cheers-Don

Don was there a question in there somewhere? Dale uses a modified 125 with his Shindo set up and is very happy. He has an ortofon arm and cart.


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Don, I do indeed have a TD 125 LB that was built by Artisan Fidelity. Great setup for me.
I'd have to spend a big pile of money to climb the ladder from this one.

I am using the SME M2-12R with the EMT XSD15. Superb match.

Oops, I didn't ask a question, did I? (-: Comments so far are exactly what I was looking for. I want to stay with a table that cuts to the heart of the music, in the same vein Shindo does. Please share, if you have any further thoughts. BTW- if I could swing a Shindo 301, I certainly would. I had to pass on a used one last year, as I Just couldn't swing it. Thanks a bunch guys. Cheers -Don

I have owned the Thorens TD125 and although it is a very well built and solid turntable, IMHO the prices being charged currently for it are too high.

When we get an used Thorens we must always check for the fit between the sub platter and the main platter - sometimes there is a looseness between them that can affect the platter proper dynamic balance.

My preferred Thorens was the TD160 super with damped chassis, special armboard and a precision aluminum pulley. Great sound! Using the old PSAudio PS300 power regenerator adjusted around 200 V (EU nominal mains is 230V) resulted in a considerable improvement.

Microstrip-Thanks very much for your comments. It sounds as if you are a dealer. If so, any comparisons made to current production tables would be of great interest. Just FYI- Vinyl Nirvana's long base TD-125 starts at around $3500 US. This includes an SME M2-12 arm, if I'm not mistaken. I'm waiting for Dave to confirm all this for me. Assuming I am in the ballpark here, the competition for this setup would be Amadeus/GTA, Rega RP8/RP10, and from a price perspective, VPI Prime.

http://vinylnirvana.com/wp-content/u...53-600x449.jpgExample of Cashmer top (crea

The new SME M2-12 Tonearm Option ($3495 plus shipping)

The SME tonearms have been lauded for their excellence for over 40 years. The M2-12 was made to pay homage to the legendary SME 3012. It incorporates many of the classic SME characteristics, yet belongs solidly in the here and now with its straight arm styling and magnesium headshell. It can easily handle cartridges in a multi-thousand dollar range. Quite possibly, this is the nicest arm I have offered on one of my turntables. (All packing, and literature is included.) The tonearm itself retails for $2300.
If you purchase this table, we can discuss cartridge options as part of the sale. I have several recommendations. If I mount and align your cartridge, it makes set-up in your home incredibly easy, plus you get the peace of mind it’s been done right. Overall, this is a stunning table with a serious arm capable of handling cartridges in the $500 to $2000 range with ease. As I am a dealer, you can even consider an Ortofon SPU cartridge, though some may require an auxiliary weight.
The new SME M2-12R Tonearm Option ($3995 plus shipping)

The SME tonearms have been lauded for their excellence for over 40 years. The M2-12R with its J-shape, was made to pay homage to the legendary SME 3012. It incorporates many of the classic SME characteristics, yet belongs solidly in the here and now. It can easily handle cartridges in a multi-thousand dollar range. Quite possibly, this is the nicest arm I have offered on one of my turntables. (All packing, and literature is included.) The tonearm itself retails for $2300.
If you purchase this table, we can discuss cartridge options as part of the sale. I have several recommendations. If I mount and align your cartridge, it makes set-up in your home incredibly easy, plus you get the peace of mind it’s been done right. Overall, this is a stunning table with a serious arm capable of handling cartridges in the $500 to $2000 range with ease. As I am a dealer, you can even consider an Ortofon SPU cartridge, though some may require an auxiliary weight.

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Originally Posted by fjn04

Microstrip-Thanks very much for your comments. It sounds as if you are a dealer. If so, any comparisons made to current production tables would be of great interest. Just FYI- Vinyl Nirvana's long base TD-125 starts at around $3500 US. This includes an SME M2-12 arm, if I'm not mistaken. I'm waiting for Dave to confirm all this for me. Assuming I am in the ballpark here, the competition for this setup would be Amadeus/GTA, Rega RP8/RP10, and from a price perspective, VPI Prime.

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No, I am not a dealer - just a too frequent customer of many dealers! :blush:

My opinion is just due to my experience with many turntables I have owned, including the TD125. If adding extra value to a classic turntable I would move to a much better plinth and an used arm, such as an used Graham 2.2 - I got mine around $1500 in Europe. Perhaps I just can not understand why adding a brand new SME arm, that is functionally very different from the old arms, to a refurbished old turntable.

Last week I got an old used SME 3012 R for an also used Scheu Premier with the 80 mm thick heavy plate. Overall I spent less than you are considering and IMHO I am better served. Surely it is just MHO, YMMV. This is an hobby with many different opinions!

As an alternative to a Thorens based table, have you considered a Lenco based Solid9 or Solid12 turntable from Peter Reinders? They aren't terribly expensive and they get good reviews. He uses old Lenco motors and reworks many components, replaces the bearing, and installs it in a composite plinth. http://www.ptpaudio.com

Before he started making the Solid line of tables, he manufactured DIY parts for Lenco hobbyists. I used his PTP 5 motor bracket to make my own (OMA style) turntable with a waterjet cut slate plinth and a Schick tone arm and one of Peter's new bearings. It sounds great with my EMT and Denon cartridges. It has all of the umph and scale that I expected from the design. It rumbles just a bit more than I'd like. Some of the dudes at Lenco Heaven obsess over these things, so I'm sure that I could improve it, but I haven't been inclined to yet. I'm sure that the Solid9 and Solid12 are pretty silent.

sme 3012 r - yes!

So Chris, you run a TSD-15 SFL or the 15 in the head shell ? On an SME 3012R? If I remember, did you build your own plinth for your 301? Bongo-Art also loved the PTP in his Stereophile review. I can't give you a solid answer as to why, but I'm going for a wood plinth if I go vintage. Cheers -Don

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Originally Posted by fjn04

So Chris, you run a TSD-15 SFL or the 15 in the head shell ? On an SME 3012R? If I remember, did you build your own plinth for your 301? Bongo-Art also loved the PTP in his Stereophile review. I can't give you a solid answer as to why, but I'm going for a wood plinth if I go vintage. Cheers -Don

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Sure, wood looks great. A lot of guys build wood plinths for their Lenco builds too. Jean Nantais builds wood plinth Lencos but they cost bank. I love the look of vintage Thorens or Garrards in furniture-grade wood plinths.

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Originally Posted by fjn04

So Chris, you run a TSD-15 SFL or the 15 in the head shell ? On an SME 3012R? If I remember, did you build your own plinth for your 301? Bongo-Art also loved the PTP in his Stereophile review. I can't give you a solid answer as to why, but I'm going for a wood plinth if I go vintage. Cheers -Don

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Then you can consider a plinth made from Panzerholtz compressed wood.

http://www.delignit.de/Delignit/cms/...6&changelang=3

Some people consider it as one the best materials for turntable plinths.

Yes I had mine built. It is stacked Baltic birch and Dale had a friend of his do the venere on it. It looks awesome and I am super pleased with it. It is a EMT TSD 15 in a headshelll on a SME 3012R. I just love the tone arm and would recommend it to anyone.


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Originally Posted by microstrip

Then you can consider a plinth made from Panzerholtz compressed wood.

http://www.delignit.de/Delignit/cms/...6&changelang=3

Some people consider it as one the best materials for turntable plinths.

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Panzerholtz is pretty cool looking, in my opinion, especially for a more modern and slightly industrial look. In fact, I would have used that material if I hadn't gone with slate. However, it sounds like Don may be after a more classic wood look.

The Japanese do "vintage" design like few other cultures, updating revered old objects or design elements in an understated modern way. Shindo does this as well as any designer and their 301 turntable may be the benchmark for this kind of thing. I think it is the company's most intriguing design. The vintage Garrard chassis draws immediate attention, indicating it is a well preserved older record player. The cartridge looks vintage. The design of the tonearm, platter, and weight could pass for vintage. Then you notice their modern matte silver finishes and how they contrast the lovely classic glossy finish wood plinth. Then you might do a double take on that immaculate 301 chassis. Clearly it's a modern table. All of this combines to defy expectations, making the table more mysterious and difficult to categorize. Like my Shindo 604 speakers, the 301 looks like it could have been built in 1935. Then you hear it play music and it reveals another delicate balance, the best of old and new sonics.

Actually, I believe that many people have trouble reconciling the price for Shindo gear with its modified vintage parts and understated aesthetic. However, owning an all Shindo system (minus the 301!), I know that the Shindo aesthetic largely follows function and that the function is to play recorded music in a lovely way.

Forgive me Don, if this strays from your interests. While your audio preferences seem clear enough, and similar to mine, you may not be as interested in this take on product design as I am. I don't know for sure what aesthetic you are after, but thinking about this caused me to augment my (meager) knowledge of Japanese aesthetics. It seems that that several of these philosophies influence Shindo visuals and sonics, suggesting a high degree of integrity between design values (probably stemming from Ken's personal values) and product execution.

Kanso (簡素) Simplicity or elimination of clutter.
Shibui/Shibumi (渋味) Beautiful by being understated, or by being precisely what it was meant to be and not elaborated upon.
Shizen (自然) Naturalness. Absence of pretense or artificiality, full creative intent unforced.
Yugen (幽玄) Profundity or suggestion rather than revelation.
Seijaku (静寂)Tranquility or an energized calm (quite), stillness, solitude.
(taken from http://www.presentationzen.com/prese...-is-a-goo.html)

Having re-read the above terms, it kind of sounds like something like a luxury goods maker (handbags, watches, jewelry) might co-opt for a marketing campaign and cram down our throats. I'm so grateful that Shindo expresses its values through it's products and not through marketing.

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Originally Posted by Cucumber_jones

Yes I had mine built. It is stacked Baltic birch and Dale had a friend of his do the venere on it. It looks awesome and I am super pleased with it. It is a EMT TSD 15 in a headshelll on a SME 3012R. I just love the tone arm and would recommend it to anyone.


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Chris,
Same arm and cart here ! Why didn't you pick the XSD 15 ?
Do you also have the A23 Hommage T2 ?

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Originally Posted by Jerome W

Chris,
Same arm and cart here ! Why didn't you pick the XSD 15 ?
Do you also have the A23 Hommage T2 ?

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Yes I have the Hommage T2. The TSD was an opportunity. But then the stylus was bent by my cleaner. I got a new one but did not think about getting the XSD - I should have..

I am very happy with the A23 T2, EMT 15 and SME 3012R.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cucumber_jones

Yes I have the Hommage T2. The TSD was an opportunity. But then the stylus was bent by my cleaner. I got a new one but did not think about getting the XSD - I should have..

I am very happy with the A23 T2, EMT 15 and SME 3012R.


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I see.
I first read by mistake M2-12R. That is the arm I have.
In case I just bought an other XSD-15. To have it as a spare cart.

Don,
Here's a pic of my Thorens. Sorry for bad pic.

I have the TD125 with the SME M2 12R from Dave at VN and when paired with a nice Ortofon SPU it sounds fantastic. Organic, soulful sound.

Wow- Much appreciated guys. Dale, your Artisan Td-125 looks gorgeous, and I bet sounds wonderful. I'm sure you keep that telephone OFF. Logey- Another Shindo guy with a TD125, this one by Vinyl Nirvana. I'm going off track here, but may I ask if either of you thought Idler at one point? A Girard 301/401, or TD124.

Don,
I did lust for a Garrard 301 but at the time I bought the Thorens a good quality 301 setup would have cost me about $12K. The TD125 complete was $6K. That was 6 yrs. ago. These days a top quality 301 I'm guessing is over $15K. I'm very happy with my TT and it works really well in my system for my needs. If I win the lotto I would buy one of Artisan Fidelity's 301 Statement tables

I have a TD 124 being rebuilt by STS Turntables right now. The cost will be no where near 15k, more like 3 to 4K including the arm. Looking forward to comparing the TD 124 and 125.

My Ortofon RS309D arm is $3500. SPU classic is $1K. Add in the price of a used 301 that needs to be rebuilt and or modded along with a custom built plinth with a good quality veneer or lacquered finish. Don't forget the table mat and weight. It adds up fast

Vinyl Nirvana Td-125 Long Base with an SME M2-12R is roughly $4000. Woodsong 301 is roughly $5000, with NO arm. So I project the Woodsong kit to be around $8000, give or take, based on plinth/wood options. The former is comfortably within my price range. The latter isn't, but you know how that goes. (-: I have no doubt either would bring me close to nirvana.

How much is that SME M2-12R arm worth?
I would imagine finding a TD 125 long base version is not that easy
regular versions were much more popular

Honestly, I'm not sure. I believe the SME is in the 2-2.5K range. I'm just working with the rough numbers, and focusing more on the choices. Cheers -Don

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Originally Posted by fjn04

Honestly, I'm not sure. I believe the SME is in the 2-2.5K range. I'm just working with the rough numbers, and focusing more on the choices. Cheers -Don

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I paid 3000 euros for 2 x SME M2-12R a few years ago in UK. But after that I received a quote from the Living Voice shop for 2400euros ! They are SME dealers and do have terrific prices.

Yeah, a great deck indeed.

My first ever turntable was a TD125 table, SME arm and EMT TSD15 cart into a shindo preamp and I loved the combo. Musical bliss for sure. I have a garrard 301 now because a deal came up and thats what all the cool kids seemed to be using but I could defiantly have stayed a happy man until the end of my days with the TD125.

Dble post

Hi try the TD 124 modded by Schopper in Switzerland - he also mods the other models. They sell for 7k including the special power supply which alone sells for 2k. I know a top of the line SME and Brinkmann owner who sold those to get this. Schopper bought all Thorens parts when they went bankrupt, and then also employs one of their engineers I think, his Thorens mods are considered the best, at least here in EU. More expensive than your stock Thorens though. The arm board can easily be changed to accommodate most arms.

Yes, Schopper is a great experience with Thorens modding the 124. Can employ this for sure.

If anyone wants to pick up a Schopper 124 located in the UK at 2800 GBP, please let me know. retail was 7500 Euro, with special the power supply. Now it's probably gone up. the power supply itself costs 2k euro. This comes with an FR 64s arm board and you can get the arm for an additional 1300. Arm will come only with the schopper though not separate. friend is selling. I might pick it up myself but no rush for me as I won't be setting up for a while.

Very good idea indeed!

I checked this 125 at VN and for sure it is a beauty.
An other option to consider for the arm is the Jelco SA 750. Compatible and excellent with the SPU but also with the EMT. A friend of mine has one. Quality is superb. Probably as good as my SME M2-12R's if not better. And much cheaper.


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This is an oil damped tonearm, which isnt recommended. Choose Ortofon tonearm 12 inch or Shindo. A perfect match.
BTW, the Thorens is the same combination of idler and string as the 124? Pure idlers are the way to go. Try Lenco, much better if youre on the cheapskate trip.