Bit confused about Roon

Hi,

I have tried a Roon Nucleus plugged directly into a Dac, but did not like the sound quality though I liked the interface a lot. I will buy a Roon ready streamer in the near future and I am a little confused about which device does what. Both the Nucleus and the streamer will be connected to the LAN, and the Roon app will enable me to find albums on Qobuz. Is the role of the Nucleus purely "organisational" as it were, and does the music flow from the internet directly to the streamer, or does it pass through the Nucleus first and then to the streamer?

No doubt a rather basic question, but I am not very computer savvy.

Many thanks,

Paleo.

The Roon preferred and recommended method is over the RAAT (Roon advanced audio transport) which is Ethernet or WiFi. Core to DAC as you have tried is not the preferred way.

Simply stated, Your Roon core is the brains behind the operation and your Roon compatible streamer is the receiving end point to feed the DAC with the music.

https://help.roonlabs.com/portal/en/kb/articles/raat

Thanks for that; I'll definitely set it up that way. Also read the informative link.

Connecting the Core device directly to the DAC is definitely one suggested method.
"It enables you to play your Roon music to:
* Roon Ready hardware devices
* Audio outputs, sound cards, and USB DACs connected to the Core."

The Core is the brains and controls what is being played, weather it comes from internal storage (best), a NAS, or streaming. Since all my music is stored on my server machine I do in fact connect it directly to my DAC and it sounds amazing. However if I choose to stream I could also control it from Roon through this setup...

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Originally Posted by Randy Myers

Connecting the Core device directly to the DAC is definitely one suggested method.
"It enables you to play your Roon music to:
* Roon Ready hardware devices
* Audio outputs, sound cards, and USB DACs connected to the Core."

The Core is the brains and controls what is being played, weather it comes from internal storage (best), a NAS, or streaming. Since all my music is stored on my server machine I do in fact connect it directly to my DAC and it sounds amazing. However if I choose to stream I could also control it from Roon through this setup...

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Join the Roon Facebook community and ask the same question there. There have been hundreds of these questions posted and thousands of experiments done. In the end, do whatever you feel sounds best to you. :snicker:

I have two houses and two complete Roon setups in each house.

One is the preferred setup where Roon Core is running on a dedicated small computer called a Nucleus (NUC). I have separate dedicated end points (streamers) that use Roon Advanced Audio Transport (RAAT) software to turn network bits into USB bits my DAC can digest. I have all my files on a server.

The other system is just my SurfacePro3 which runs Roon Core and RAAT and serves the USB bits out to my DAC. In this case all my music lives on USB hard drives.

They both sound fantastic.

I haven’t tried to directly compare the two.

One reason computers and laptops are not ideal is they make a lot of electrical noise. In each case I have taken steps to isolate this noise to good effect.

Thanks, I did connect the Roon Nucleus to my USB DAC. I found that in my system it did not sound very good to me.

Thanks, I'll try that.

Thanks. My plan at the moment is to get a streamer of the same make as the DAC/CD player (Esoteric) and a NUC to act as the Roon Core with an internal SSD to store the music. I found that in my system, the Roon Nucleus plugged directly into the DAC sounded a bit lifeless to me. Different ear, different rooms, different systems...

This would be similar to the first system you describe. I was wondering what the "flow" of the music is: as the streamer is connected to the internet as is the NUC, does the stream of music enter the streamer, or does it enter the NUC which sends it over the LAN to the streamer. If the latter, would it also work if the streamer is not connected to the internet?

I am trying to deepen my understanding of the process a little bit without going wildly techie about it.

Tidal / Qobuz music goes through the Roon Core, then over the LAN to the Roon Ready streamer (via RAAT protocol).

You have to have internet to use Roon even if you don't play music from internet, because Roon does internet license check.

If you do not want to internet-enable your streamer network, I do not recommend using Roon.

If you already have an Esoteric player, tell me the model and I'll check the compatibility for you.

Hi,

Thanks, that's very useful. If the Qobuz music goes through the Core to the streamer, does the streamer itself need to be connected to the internet?

The streamer will be an Esoteric N03T, which I believe is Roon ready.

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Originally Posted by paleo12

Hi,

Thanks, that's very useful. If the Qobuz music goes through the Core to the streamer, does the streamer itself need to be connected to the internet?

The streamer will be an Esoteric N03T, which I believe is Roon ready.

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Connected to your home network is required, not the internet. The server is usually connected to the internet. If only playing local files, the server would not need to be connected to the internet.

Excluding internet, from the streamer, is possible, but tricky. Many streamers, including the Roon based ones, will want to be updated regularly via internet connection.

To call a setup which utilizes an streamer and an endpoint "preferred" is a misnomer to me. I have had many setups and the ones which have sounded best are the ones in which my DAC was connected directly to my server, not to an endpoint.

I am not saying that in certain setups using an endpoint won't result in the best sound. It is all system and equipment dependent. With an endpoint you are adding another "computer" which has its own power supply. In addition, you are potentially subjecting the data stream from the Core to other internet traffic.

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Originally Posted by paleo12

If the Qobuz music goes through the Core to the streamer, does the streamer itself need to be connected to the internet?

The streamer will be an Esoteric N03T, which I believe is Roon ready.

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You need to have a WiFi router with the internet connected to the WAN port. Both the Roon computer and the streamer need to be connected to the LAN ports. You also need an iPad to run the app for the Esoteric or Lumin streamer. All can access the Internet this way.

If you really want to block the streamer from internet access, you can do MAC address filtering or setup firewall at the router, but I highly recommend you do not do these.

Please tell me the Esoteric DAC model you use.

For the SQ benefit of using a dedicated audiophile streamer, see Rule 1 of this article by Roon Labs:
https://help.roonlabs.com/portal/en/.../sound-quality

Hi, Thanks, that was another very useful link. Once I have the gear, it'll be a bit of a project to set it up I think.

I will be using an Esoteric K03XD and a N03T as a streamer, connected by USB. It will be interesting to see if there will be a difference to sound quality using Roon or using the Esoteric app to control the streamer directly.

If you want to use the Esoteric or Lumin app for native playback, you need a computer to run the MinimServer free edition. If you have not already purchased the Nucleus, you can setup a Windows computer to run both Roon and MinimServer. If you have already purchased the Nucleus, then you need another computer or NAS (e.g. QNAP HS-453DX) to run MinimServer.

Thanks. You've lost me I'm afraid. At the moment I have a Melco and an iPad with the Melco app. I use this app to find albums on Qobuz and then persuade the Melco to play these albums. I was hoping that the Esoteric player and the Esoteric Sound Stream app would work in the same way. Is that not so?

If you're using Melco, you can upgrade the Melco firmware to latest 2021 version and use it as a Roon Ready streamer to use with your DAC for Roon playback without buying anything.

If you use N-03T for local music files, then you need to run MinimServer on the Melco, then use Esoteric or Lumin app to control the playback. You don't need to use Melco app with N-03T, at least not for playback control.

If you only play from Qobuz without playing local music files, then you don't need MinimServer.

I absolutely dontagree with you: a separate endpoint sounds better. First of all, you bring that the more pcs, the worse the sound. Do you have an idea how many pcs there are between the audio file server and your house?

but I dont care about about all those pcs, I do care about 2

1. the pc that does the calculation to upsample those flac files
2. most important, the last one in my case the endpoint (streamer)

There are 2 reasons for using a streamer instead of a pc at the final stage

1. as said here in this topic: pcs generate electronic noise
2. those pc boards come with their own hard switched power supplies, and an linear external power supply wont make sense for pcs

For that reason I use a separate streamer, that is only powered by an external hand made linear power supply, (see profile picture). The latter is even more costly then the streamer, the result of changing a cheap lps by this one is amazing

After many trials and listening my choice is Qobuz->Nucleus->USB->DAC(CA851N)->preamp->amp etc

Control via macbook or ipad...

Excellent SQ

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Originally Posted by ArnoP

After many trials and listening my choice is Qobuz->Nucleus->USB->DAC(CA851N)->preamp->amp etc

Control via macbook or ipad...

Excellent SQ

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Very similar, Local Stored Files->PC Server->Roon & HQ Player->DAC(T+A DAC 8 DSD)->Pre-amp->amp

Control via Microsoft Surface Pro 6

Amazing SQ!!!

Doing trials too on my system and a dac directly into a pc is not the way to go. I explained the reasons above, there must be a separate streamer between my core and dac,

Currently testing roon setups. I build a nuc 8i5 based on a linux version. In an Akasa fanless case I am currently running Roon in DSD and measuring temperatures. At 256 DSD my max Tjunction temperature is just 52 degrees centrigrade. While the critical temperature is above 80 degrees centrigrade. And it sounds amazing.

I hope to do further tests with HQPlayer, this is promising.

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Originally Posted by Alkyogre

Doing trials too on my system and a dac directly into a pc is not the way to go. I explained the reasons above, there must be a separate streamer between my core and dac,

Currently testing roon setups. I build a nuc 8i5 based on a linux version. In an Akasa fanless case I am currently running Roon in DSD and measuring temperatures. At 256 DSD my max Tjunction temperature is just 52 degrees centrigrade. While the critical temperature is above 80 degrees centrigrade. And it sounds amazing.

I hope to do further tests with HQPlayer, this is promising.

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Using a separate streamer and end point may work for you but it doesn't mean it works for everyone else.

The Taiko Audio Extreme works best as a single unit setup as opposed to using an endpoint. My prior DIY server worked better as single PC without an endpoint.

Every device you add to the chain opens the potential for adding noise.

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Originally Posted by Alkyogre

Doing trials too on my system and a dac directly into a pc is not the way to go. I explained the reasons above, there must be a separate streamer between my core and dac,

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Frankly I had excellent SQ with my macbook being the core linked via USB to the DAC but the annoying thing was the USB cable running across the living room...so had to get the nucleus close to the DAC to separate the control function from the actual core function

Rule 1 is applicable to generic PC (not audiophile modified) or Mac as a Roon Core, not referring to EUR24K servers I believe.

Hi, Thanks for that. Things are slowly become more clear. I would only want to use the Esoteric in native mode if that improves the sound qualtiy. From what I have learned so far, it would seem that the Roon interface will be much superior to the Esoteric app.

From what you say, I take it that it would not be possible to install MinimServer on the same NUC that has the Roon software on it? Does MininServer fulfill a similar function to the Roon software?

At present, I am swithering a bit about whether to have an internal SSD in the NUC, or an external one. The latter possibility would enable me to plug the SSD straight into the Esoteric. What do you think are the advantages of either possibility?

Thanks for all your advice and your patience. It's a bit of a learning curve.

For those concerned about noise from PC’s or endpoints to DAC’s via USB;
I have done experiments measuring USB nose from my laptop and RPi based endpoints. A USB isolator can produce a dramatic improvement in noise the DAC sees, and a resultant increase in sound quality.

I have done this with both my systems and the results are not subtle. I chose the DIY route and can provide details to those who desire to roll their own. iFi and other make USB isolators that I am certain will be effective, I just haven’t tried them.

Conventional wisdom and experience have shown that PC’s generate a lot of noise. That’s true. What’s unknown is how much noise streamers generate as manufacturers don’t provide this kind of data. The assumption is these audiophile streamers are better, and they may be, but there is no data on any of them, at least that I’m aware of. Different DAC’s will also respond to noise differently. A USB isolator powered by a linear power supply or very quiet switcher will isolate your DAC and is an inexpensive way to improve SQ in any USB streamer -> DAC setup.

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Originally Posted by paleo12

Hi, Thanks for that. Things are slowly become more clear. I would only want to use the Esoteric in native mode if that improves the sound qualtiy. From what I have learned so far, it would seem that the Roon interface will be much superior to the Esoteric app.

From what you say, I take it that it would not be possible to install MinimServer on the same NUC that has the Roon software on it? Does MininServer fulfill a similar function to the Roon software?

At present, I am swithering a bit about whether to have an internal SSD in the NUC, or an external one. The latter possibility would enable me to plug the SSD straight into the Esoteric. What do you think are the advantages of either possibility?

Thanks for all your advice and your patience. It's a bit of a learning curve.

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In order to reduce confusion, you should setup the Melco as Roon Ready to use with the K-03XD first. At this stage please ignore MinimServer for now. (MinimServer becomes relevant only if you purchase N-03T and decide to play local music files with it. Melco also runs MinimServer.)

The Nucleus already has a m.2 SSD as boot drive. The boot drive cannot be used to store music. If you don't need to play local music files, you don't need a USB storage device attached. You may use a USB SSD to be connected to the Nucleus if you want to, but it is not recommend to connect to the Esoteric and Lumin streamers as USB SSD draw too much power for these streamers.

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Originally Posted by paleo12

The streamer will be an Esoteric N03T, which I believe is Roon ready.

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Forget Roon. Stream Spotify Premium direct to the N03T. You'll be blown away by the sound quality, and the simplicity. I have an Esoteric Grandioso SACD transport mostly gathering dust because the Spotify stream sound is so good.

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Originally Posted by brodricj

Forget Roon. Stream Spotify Premium direct to the N03T. You'll be blown away by the sound quality, and the simplicity. I have an Esoteric Grandioso SACD transport mostly gathering dust because the Spotify stream sound is so good.

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Life is too short to be listening at 320kbps... :D

Nothing wrong with 320kbps through an Esoteric streamer...it's glorious, and solves any confusion the OP might have.

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Originally Posted by brodricj

Nothing wrong with 320kbps through an Esoteric streamer...it's glorious, and solves any confusion the OP might have.

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I'll stick to my glorious 192/24 Qobuz "lossless" streams and without the MQA/Tidal artificial sweeteners from Roon but I have no doubt your Spotify/Esoteric listen at 320kbps is glorious as well.

We are working hard to prepare for Spotify HiFi (lossless instead of 320kbps) later this year.

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Originally Posted by wklie

We are working hard to prepare for Spotify HiFi later this year.

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Competition is always good. Forces the leaders to keep innovating and keep honest.

For various reasons, I think the Melco will have to go. I do have some albums on the HDDs in the Melco, which I aim to copy to the SSD in the NUC. I have now gathered that the Melco has a version of MinimServer on it. Is there any reason why installing MinimServer on the SSD in the NUC, alongside the music files, would not be functional? I understand I would be duplicating functionality in a way.

To continue this discussion, we will have to make a distinction between NUC and Nucleus.

NUC is a general purpose computer manufactured by Intel, at a price that is similar to a normal PC. You are going to install an OS on it by yourself, usually Windows. On Windows, you can have Windows OS, Roon software, Roon database, and music files all on a single SSD. Since it's Windows, you can install anything else you like, including MinimServer.

Nucleus is a NUC customized by Roon Labs with fanless chassis with its own customized OS, sold in audio retail channel at an audio equipment price. You are not going to install an OS on it. You cannot install any software on it. You cannot put music files in its boot SSD - it won't work. So if you have local music files you have to have another 2.5" or USB drive.

If you have determined to buy the N-03T, and you are only going to use Roon, or are not going to play local music files, then don't worry about MinimServer.

If you are going to play local music files from Esoteric or Lumin app, you need MinimServer to be running on a computer. You cannot install MinimServer to a Nucleus running Nucleus Roon OS, so you need another computer or NAS to run the MinimServer. You can install MinimServer to Windows on NUC, so the NUC runs both Roon and MinimServer.

As I said, to reduce confusion, you should start with a Roon-only configuration.

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Originally Posted by ArnoP

Frankly I had excellent SQ with my macbook being the core linked via USB to the DAC but the annoying thing was the USB cable running across the living room...so had to get the nucleus close to the DAC to separate the control function from the actual core function

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my experience is that I notice between the cores. This week had a day off due to Kings day, made my nuc fanless. Not even thinking that the sound quality could improve, but to my surprise it did :disbelief:. The same motherboard, the same SSD/ memory, and linux software, only the plastic nuc case was changed by a hard heavy metal Akasa case.

by the way, my Roon mini pc can work on wifi too :happy:

That is one of the reasons why I always tell people to use fanless Roon Core or fanless NAS. Naturally our own L1 product is also fanless. Same for the EUR24k server.

Hi, thanks for that. It took a little while, but I think I've wrapped my head around it. Some time ago, I was thinking of buying the NAS you mentioned (QNAP HS-453DX) as it seemed to offer everything necessary: M.2 drives for the Roon OS and a RAID for the albums. I then learned that the processor is probably not powerful enough to do the heavy lifting.

I will buy a fanless NUC and a techie friend will install the OS and the necessary software. I'll just stick to Roon and see how that goes.

Thanks for you advice and your patience.

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Originally Posted by paleo12

Hi, thanks for that. It took a little while, but I think I've wrapped my head around it. Some time ago, I was thinking of buying the NAS you mentioned (QNAP HS-453DX) as it seemed to offer everything necessary: M.2 drives for the Roon OS and a RAID for the albums. I then learned that the processor is probably not powerful enough to do the heavy lifting.

I will buy a fanless NUC and a techie friend will install the OS and the necessary software. I'll just stick to Roon and see how that goes.

Thanks for you advice and your patience.

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Beware about buying the right nuc. The nucs that work according to Roon are from version 5i3 or higher and the newest version 11 is not implemented yet for Roon Rock

Second, those cases are hard to find too and every generation has its own case so when buying such a nuc take also a look if those cases are somewhere available. Those akasa cases are amazing and they fit very well.

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Originally Posted by paleo12

I will buy a fanless NUC and a techie friend will install the OS and the necessary software. I'll just stick to Roon and see how that goes.

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Get the NUC8i7BEH (or i5) with the m.2 Samsung 970 (or 980) as boot drive with 16GB RAM (in case you change to Windows later). Normally for ROCK installation, you just need the smallest capacity version of m.2 SSD. But in case you change to Windows in the future, a larger one won't hurt.

NUC10 has worse GPU for Windows. NUC11 is not approved for ROCK. NUC7 and NUC6 are weaker. NUC5 cannot boot from m.2 in ROCK.

In case you want to use a LPS for the NUC, you need one with 19V at no less than 4A. Or ask Mike.

Hi, once more, thanks. I have been talking with Quiet PC, as I bought my PC from them. I will get a version of this one: UltraNUC Pro 7 Fanless keeping your advice in mind. They said they knew what is required for Roon Cores as they sell a lot of them. The guy also said that if it did not work for some reason, I could return the device. Seems OK to me.

In that product page, you should only choose the the i7 because the rest is not quad core. That's a NUC7i7DNHE, which I believe is equivalent to Nucleus Plus revision B. Although I prefer NUC8 as stated due to higher performance, NUC7 is certainly fine.