Can you recommend complete amp+speaker setup for high-res music streaming w/Tidal Connect? (~10k)

Requirements:
- Fairly small room -- quality is more important than volume
- Considering B&W 805 D3 speakers (can get them used from a friend) but open to options
- Primarily listen to heavy metal / hard rock music
- Would be great if this could be done with an integrated system, but open to a separate streamer if necessary
- Ideally would have some way to output video to display album cover artwork on TV
- Ideally would have home theater bypass if I want to pair with an AVR in the future

Total budget around $10k! How would you spend this money?

Heavy Metal and Quality is a bit of a dichotomy. The music is based on gritty, growling and often distorted, driven into clipping on purpose type of sound... By "quality", do you mean a speaker that will not make your ears bleed from all that?

Welcome to the forum.

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Originally Posted by TheOctopus

Heavy Metal and Quality is a bit of a dichotomy. The music is based on gritty, growling and often distorted, driven into clipping on purpose type of sound... By "quality", do you mean a speaker that will not make your ears bleed from all that?

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I do listen for several hours at a time so non-fatiguing is important. But I don't completely agree its a dichotomy -- not for all sub-genres of heavy metal at least. I suppose I listen to more to symphonic metal, folk metal, progressive metal, etc...which are likely more to have many instruments, symphonic elements, clean vocals as well. But I think my point it that I'm not necessarily listening at very high volumes (small apartment setting) so I'd rather be putting my money towards higher quality components as opposed to just power/loudness.

I would say Harbeth, but metal on Harbeth? Oh boy, not sure about that one.


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Originally Posted by metalgod01

I do listen for several hours at a time so non-fatiguing is important. But I don't completely agree its a dichotomy -- not for all sub-genres of heavy metal at least. I suppose I listen to more to symphonic metal, folk metal, progressive metal, etc...which are likely more to have many instruments, symphonic elements, clean vocals as well. But I think my point it that I'm not necessarily listening at very high volumes (small apartment setting) so I'd rather be putting my money towards higher quality components as opposed to just power/loudness.

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I listened to a certain bit of folk and symphonic metal myself back in the days. Bands like Haggard, Rammstein, Within Temptation, Nightwish, etc.. I had a pair of Sonus Faber speakers that were from the older generation and very forgiving and I was running two JL Audio subs.

The important thing IMHO is to keep the sound balanced and to have ample bass. When the bass is satisfying, there is less of a tendency to crank the sound up to compensate which causes fatigue. Best way to optimize your system for that small room is to have a smooth sounding stand mounted speaker with a silk dome or similar forgiving tweeter and to blend the bass in with a small but quality subwoofer. The result will be very satisfying if done right.

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Originally Posted by Mike

I would say Harbeth, but metal on Harbeth? Oh boy, not sure about that one.


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Sure, why not? a pair of Harbeth PS3ESR, a small quality sub, a Bryston integrated and the streamer/front end to finish it off. A sub is the key ingredient for this particular combination of a small room and metal genre of music.

I agree with Serge, plus, heavy metal is typically a bass heavy genre. So a sub would definitely be something to consider.

Yes, bass is very important. I don't listen as much anymore but great memories! The Folk and Symphonic Metal can also be beautiful in its own way. Awaking the Centuries - Haggard (Live) Awaking the Centuries - Haggard (Live) - YouTube

Quite different Swedish metal. Amaranthe - Amaranthine


Amaranthe - Amaranthine - YouTube

@metalgod01 The people I know that like heavy metal or metal in general tend to prefer being able to hear everything clearly and with detail, across the frequency spectrum but I think mid-range and treble tends to be more important than playing deep, and of course at decent volumes without fatigue. In other words, warm-sounding or harmonic distortion is not desired. I am getting that impression from your second post.

Based on your budget and other criteria, you might consider the NAD M33 streaming DAC integrated amp. I think it has a good chance of matching the type of sound you'd be looking for, and I am optimistic of the sound improvement the Purifi Eigentakt amplifier modules provide over previous generation ICEPower, UcD, nCore modules. The built-in Dirac will help.

It doesn't have HDMI output for displaying playback information (I don't think you'll find anything like that without just getting a separate TV-oriented set-top box or using an HTPC), and doesn't have a dedicated HT bypass button/mode but I think you can use a preset or macro to configure one of the analog inputs that way.

If you want to break it out into two boxes, you could get an Apple TV or NVIDIA Shield type device to use your TV as a display during playback, and then there are more integrated DAC amp options with HT bypass available to you.

Listening fatigue is actually not as much harsh sounds or odd/high order harmonics as much as they are sounds in reflective acoustic spaces. The ear/brain try to pinpoint the source of sound (survival instinct) and with various delayed signals due to early and late reflections, the "mechanism" gets tired and overwhelmed in a short amount of time. Lowering the volume goes a long way to reducing the fatigue. Hence the reason why anyone can listen to metal on a small transistor radio but try it on a big and revealing system.... Lowering the volume is ok but even Fletcher Munson knew back in the 1930's that our ears are not linear but closer to a logarithmic scale. Hence the loudness buttons...

If someone wants to listen to metal on a highly accurate and revealing system, that is their choice and preference. I would not be able to tolerate it unless it was at lower volumes with a well filled out bottom end. Not bloated but enhanced by a subwoofer to bring the tonal balance in check and not having the midrange and highs stick out to accentuate all the grunge and grit inherent to that music genre. To each their own.

Klipsch perhaps ? easy to drive 'loud'

maybe SVS and a couple of subs, that should rock the place out !

SVS Prime Pinnacle Speaker | Floorstanding Speakers for Home Theater & Stereo

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Originally Posted by TheOctopus

Listening fatigue is actually not as much harsh sounds or odd/high order harmonics as much as they are sounds in reflective acoustic spaces.

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Reading back my post, I can see how what I wrote might be interpreted to equate listening fatigue with either a warm sound or harmonic distortion. That wasn't my direct intent, although from my experience I do think that some types of distortion can lead to listening fatigue in both live and dead rooms and to a much larger degree in reflective rooms. I do agree that reducing the volume is one method used to alleviate listening fatigue. Sometimes people look for NOS, R2R, or tube gear that explicitly roll-off highs (but overwhelming bass can still lead to fatigue).

Rather I was meaning to say that even pleasing non-fatiguing harmonic distortion, as well as other forms of coloration, would not be preferable to metal listeners.

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Originally Posted by bluegrassphile

I agree with Serge, plus, heavy metal is typically a bass heavy genre. So a sub would definitely be something to consider.

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x3 !

Even the restaurant industry knows that acoustics play a big role in the atmosphere, ambiance, mood and the likelihood of patrons enjoying their meal and coming back for more. Nothing like a loud, noisy, atmosphere where people struggle to hear, need to raise voices and speech becomes unintelligible to the point where they irritated and are not even enjoying their meal. All our senses are tied together. Try enjoying a meal when any of the senses are overwhelmed... It is very irritating. Why would they want the clinking glasses and voices to sound more organic and relaxed? Same reason I already mentioned. Fatigue sets in as the brain is thrown into overdrive trying to keep up with all the noises and their source, origin and meaning, it is in our basic survival skill set passed down for millions of years up the DNA tree.

Loud noises and fatigue have been well documented. The rest, not so much.

What does any of that have to do with Metal or Music, speakers and room acoustics? Very simple. Loud, unnatural noises, such as encountered with harsh distortion, grunge, grit, combined with a room that is reflective and has a high RT60 response time/reverberation is highly fatiguing and annoying. Metal on a revealing system... It is definitely an acquired taste and one has to be in a certain frame of mind or mood to tolerate it I guess. I can't do it for long now but there was a point in my life where I could. Perhaps we get more easily irritated as we get older? Grumpy old men??

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Originally Posted by TheOctopus

Heavy Metal and Quality is a bit of a dichotomy. The music is based on gritty, growling and often distorted, driven into clipping on purpose type of sound...

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That is ridiculous nonsense. Every week I buy 2-3 Metal albums from HDTracks, and have been for over a year. Granted, some aren't recorded as well as others, but none are "driven into clipping".

Thanks for all the insight so far. I don't see a lot of audiophile discussion on designing a system for heavy metal so this is great discussion.
Also never heard of Haggard so thanks for giving me a new band to check out. Big fan of all the other bands discussed so far.

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Originally Posted by BlueFox

That is ridiculous nonsense. Every week I buy 2-3 Metal albums from HDTracks, and have been for over a year. Granted, some aren't recorded as well as others, but none are "driven into clipping".

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I guess you don't understand the fundamentals then. Let's break it down.

Heavy metal (or simply metal) is a genre of rock music that developed in the late 1960s and early 1970s, largely in the United Kingdom and to a lesser extent in the United States. With roots in blues rock, psychedelic rock, and acid rock, heavy metal bands developed a thick, massive sound, characterized by distortion, extended guitar solos, emphatic beats, and loudness. The lyrics and performances are sometimes associated with aggression and machismo.

Distortion and overdrive are forms of audio signal processing used to alter the sound of amplified electric musical instruments, usually by increasing their gain, producing a "fuzzy", "growling", or "gritty" tone. Distortion is most commonly used with the electric guitar, but may also be used with other electric instruments such as bass guitar, electric piano, and Hammond organ. Guitarists playing electric blues originally obtained an overdriven sound by turning up their vacuum tube-powered guitar amplifiers to high volumes, which caused the signal to distort. While overdriven tube amps are still used to obtain overdrive, especially in genres like blues and rockabilly, a number of other ways to produce distortion have been developed since the 1960s, such as distortion effect pedals. The growling tone of a distorted electric guitar is a key part of many genres, including blues and many rock music genres, notably hard rock, punk rock, hardcore punk, acid rock, and heavy metal music, while the use of distorted bass has been essential in a genre of hip hop music and alternative hip hop known as "SoundCloud rap".

The effects alter the instrument sound by clipping the signal (pushing it past its maximum, which shears off the peaks and troughs of the signal waves), adding sustain and harmonic and inharmonic overtones and leading to a compressed sound that is often described as "warm" and "dirty", depending on the type and intensity of distortion used. The terms distortion and overdrive are often used interchangeably; where a distinction is made, distortion is a more extreme version of the effect than overdrive. Fuzz is a particular form of extreme distortion originally created by guitarists using faulty equipment (such as a misaligned valve tube, see below), which has been emulated since the 1960s by a number of "fuzzbox" effects pedals.

We can break it down further why some like tube guitar amps, others solid state.

Solid-state distortion
Solid-state amplifiers incorporating transistors and/or op amps can be made to produce hard clipping. When symmetrical, this adds additional high-amplitude odd harmonics, creating a "dirty" or "gritty" tone.When asymmetrical, it produces both even and odd harmonics. Electronically, this is usually achieved by either amplifying the signal to a point where it is clipped by the DC voltage limitation of the power supply rail, or by clipping the signal with diodes. Many solid-state distortion devices attempt to emulate the sound of overdriven vacuum valves using additional solid-state circuitry. Some amplifiers (notably the Marshall JCM 900) utilize hybrid designs that employ both valve and solid-state components.

Vacuum tube or "valve" distortion is achieved by "overdriving" the valves in an amplifier. In layman's terms, overdriving is pushing the tubes beyond their normal rated maximum. Valve amplifiers—particularly those using class-A triodes—tend to produce asymmetric soft clipping that creates both even and odd harmonics. The increase in even harmonics is considered to create "warm"-sounding overdrive effects.

In some modern valve effects, the "dirty" or "gritty" tone is actually achieved not by high voltage, but by running the circuit at voltages that are too low for the circuit components, resulting in greater non-linearity and distortion. These designs are referred to as "starved plate" configurations, and result in an "amp death" sound.

Here is a good video.

Overdrive, Distortion, Fuzz: What's the Difference?

Overdrive, Distortion, Fuzz: What's the Difference? Marty Music Gear Thursday - YouTube

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Originally Posted by metalgod01

Thanks for all the insight so far. I don't see a lot of audiophile discussion on designing a system for heavy metal so this is great discussion.
Also never heard of Haggard so thanks for giving me a new band to check out. Big fan of all the other bands discussed so far.

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Just keep striving to build a good stereo, and it will play all forms of music. While I mainly listen to Metal, I also like Classical, mostly String Quartets. Both sound excellent.

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Originally Posted by TheOctopus

Listening fatigue is actually not as much harsh sounds or odd/high order harmonics as much as they are sounds in reflective acoustic spaces. The ear/brain try to pinpoint the source of sound (survival instinct) and with various delayed signals due to early and late reflections, the "mechanism" gets tired and overwhelmed in a short amount of time. Lowering the volume goes a long way to reducing the fatigue. Hence the reason why anyone can listen to metal on a small transistor radio but try it on a big and revealing system.... Lowering the volume is ok but even Fletcher Munson knew back in the 1930's that our ears are not linear but closer to a logarithmic scale. Hence the loudness buttons...

If someone wants to listen to metal on a highly accurate and revealing system, that is their choice and preference. I would not be able to tolerate it unless it was at lower volumes with a well filled out bottom end. Not bloated but enhanced by a subwoofer to bring the tonal balance in check and not having the midrange and highs stick out to accentuate all the grunge and grit inherent to that music genre. To each their own.

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In my case, fatigue sets in on harsh and thins sounds and the poor representation of bass and loud freaking music. To each their own is so accurate. .

Clipping in the encoded digital audio data or clipping/distortion in the reproducing electronics voltage output is different than using clipping or distortion to create a sound that is then faithfully recorded and (hopefully) reproduced without any loss of fidelity....

I think my choice of terminology with respect to fatigue is intended to cover both the overwhelming amount of sensory data described by Serge as well as the harsh and thin sound or boomy/overwhelming bass described by Chris.

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Originally Posted by NekoAudio

Clipping in the encoded digital audio data or clipping/distortion in the reproducing electronics voltage output is different than using clipping or distortion to create a sound that is then faithfully recorded and (hopefully) reproduced without any loss of fidelity....

I think my choice of terminology with respect to fatigue is intended to cover both the overwhelming amount of sensory data described by Serge as well as the harsh and thin sound or boomy/overwhelming bass described by Chris.

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I don't think anyone, or at least I did not imply that the system used for reproducing the recorded sound should be driven into clipping. Quite the opposite. Clipping of the playback system (amplifier) will produce harsh distortion at best and damage speakers at worst. The genre of music being discussed here, (heavy metal) does intentionally distort the sound by driving the guitar amps into clipping, both hard and soft (solid state and tube).

The fatigue syndrome is most definitely attributable to loud and harsh sounds as well as very reflective and reverberant acoustic spaces.

I too enjoy Metal along with other genres.

Your B&W should work fine. My oter suggestions would be JBL or Dynaudio, for different reasons. Metal is not bass heavy, if anything, bass shy, a double kick seldom reaches real bass region. Both the speakers I mentioned would do good bass. The JBL HDI 360 would be a good choice,the horns are pristine and smooth. Dynaudio has a reputation for good bass, treble depends on the model.

There are a number of good integrated amps with built-in DAC's, Sim Audio or Hegel are a couple. I'm not aware of an integrated off the top that passesvideo. I think the Boulder 866 does but you will need to boost the budget :) Also, you want an amp with good quick impact.

Me personally forMetal I like a more neutral amp and spekers, not to the point of fatigue but allows goodseparation of instruments. Most Metal/Rock recordings are handicapped by compression and loud recording levels. Some ar surprisingly good though like the new Ghost album. An overly warmamp tends to dull guitars and polite amps will round edges which is something I don't care for.

Anoter option would be to by a home theater processor, this would pass video and have a DAC, something like Marantz would even have a streamer. Then add a good quality amp like Bryston perhaps.

Welcome to AS. Best if possible to have a listen t a few brands for reference.

I suggest actually looking up what instruments are used in heavy metal and what their fundamental tones as well as overtone harmonics are. What exactly makes the Heavy Metal "Heavy"???

Heavy metal bass is the use of the bass guitar (also called "electric bass") in the rock music genres of heavy metal and hard rock. The bassist is part of the rhythm section in a heavy metal band, along with the drummer, rhythm guitarist and, in some bands, a keyboard player. The prominent role of the bass is key to the metal sound, and the interplay of bass and distorted electric guitar is a central element of metal. The bass guitar provides the low-end sound crucial to making the music "heavy". The bass plays a ... more important role in heavy metal than in any other genre of rock."

Metal bassists play many different types of basslines, depending on the subgenre they are playing in and their personal playing style. Metal bass lines vary in complexity, from holding down a low pedal point as a foundation for the band's sound to doubling complex riffs and licks along with the lead guitar and/or rhythm guitars. Some bands feature the bass as a lead instrument, an approach popularized by Metallica's Cliff Burton with his emphasis on bass guitar solos and use of chords while playing bass in the early 1980s. Some metal bassists sing lead vocals while they play bass, such as Lemmy Kilmister of Motörhead and Tom Araya of Slayer. Some metal bassists sing backup vocals while they play bass.





A 5 string bass guitar reaches 30Hz. Reproducing clean bass to even 30Hz in a room is difficult. A half wave of 30Hz is 18 ft. A half wave is needed to reproduce that particular frequency without running into standing waves and room modes. So a room has to be at least 18 ft for a clean 30Hz response. Let alone a speaker that may be down 6 or 9 dB at 30hz by design. Good luck. :rolleyes:



If folks spent more time actually "listening" to music, learning about it, enjoying it, instead of being obsessed and arguing over gear and whose tweeters are better or how expensive a speaker has to be to be a true luxury item, what DAC is the flavor of the month.... Well, I am done... :cool:

You should take your own advice and listen to music opposed to relying on Wikipedia or whatever your source is. Apparently yourgoal/thrill is prviding unwelcome responses that aren't really helpful to anyone except your ego.

If you actually listened t any Metal you'd realize the bass guitar in most instances is pretty much buried in the mix. And, Motorhead, if you've ever heard it, you'd realize is an example of one of the most horrible productions in Rock. Lemy plays so high on the bass it doesn't even approach bass frequencies.

I do listen to Metal and know from experience the sound, I don't need to read about it.

I suggest in the future if you can't contribute something positive or at least truthful,, then shut up.

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Originally Posted by TheOctopus

I suggest actually looking up what instruments are used in heavy metal and what their fundamental tones as well as overtone harmonics are. What exactly makes the Heavy Metal "Heavy"???

Heavy metal bass is the use of the bass guitar (also called "electric bass") in the rock music genres of heavy metal and hard rock. The bassist is part of the rhythm section in a heavy metal band, along with the drummer, rhythm guitarist and, in some bands, a keyboard player. The prominent role of the bass is key to the metal sound, and the interplay of bass and distorted electric guitar is a central element of metal. The bass guitar provides the low-end sound crucial to making the music "heavy". The bass plays a ... more important role in heavy metal than in any other genre of rock."

Metal bassists play many different types of basslines, depending on the subgenre they are playing in and their personal playing style. Metal bass lines vary in complexity, from holding down a low pedal point as a foundation for the band's sound to doubling complex riffs and licks along with the lead guitar and/or rhythm guitars. Some bands feature the bass as a lead instrument, an approach popularized by Metallica's Cliff Burton with his emphasis on bass guitar solos and use of chords while playing bass in the early 1980s. Some metal bassists sing lead vocals while they play bass, such as Lemmy Kilmister of Motörhead and Tom Araya of Slayer. Some metal bassists sing backup vocals while they play bass.





A 5 string bass guitar reaches 30Hz. Reproducing clean bass to even 30Hz in a room is difficult. A half wave of 30Hz is 18 ft. A half wave is needed to reproduce that particular frequency without running into standing waves and room modes. So a room has to be at least 18 ft for a clean 30Hz response. Let alone a speaker that may be down 6 or 9 dB at 30hz by design. Good luck. :rolleyes:



If folks spent more time actually "listening" to music, learning about it, enjoying it, instead of being obsessed and arguing over gear and whose tweeters are better or how expensive a speaker has to be to be a true luxury item, what DAC is the flavor of the month.... Well, I am done... :cool:

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Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

You should take your own advice and listen to music opposed to relying on Wikipedia or whatever your source is. Apparently yourgoal/thrill is prviding unwelcome responses that aren't really helpful to anyone except your ego.

If you actually listened t any Metal you'd realize the bass guitar in most instances is pretty much buried in the mix. And, Motorhead, if you've ever heard it, you'd realize is an example of one of the most horrible productions in Rock. Lemy plays so high on the bass it doesn't even approach bass frequencies.

I do listen to Metal and know from experience the sound, I don't need to read about it.

I suggest in the future if you can't contribute something positive or at least truthful,, then shut up.

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Feeling good about yourself right about now? Wikipedia saves me from typing with copy and paste. Same message. I won't waste my time typing something out when it is hardly even appreciated. You are going to tell me what I have been or should be listening to? What speakers I have experienced or owned? You are a pathetic little individual.

So not only Mr Peabody p^ss all over the thread, he also has no clue about the music genre (of which I am not a big fan or an expert). Mr.Peabody is the type of a guy that will dis the sources such as Wikipedia because HE knows better. Then has the nerve to talk about EGOS...

But since I actually try to "educate" myself... What was it Mr. Peabody was saying about Lemmy not playing deep bass? Heaviest Bass Riff Of All Time?! (Tutorial + Tab) - YouTube

Amazing how long it took you to find an online response. Since you "try" to educate yourself, please check into the term "heavy" as used to refer to rock and the word "deep" or "low" as it pertains to bass frequencies. In trying to rdeem yourself you actually proved my point. Thanks

A clue, bass guitar amplifiers hav tone cntrols, some EQ's, regardless of using open E it can still never touch low frequencies

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Originally Posted by TheOctopus

So not only Mr Peabody p^ss all over the thread, he also has no clue about the music genre (of which I am not a big fan or an expert). Mr.Peabody is the type of a guy that will diss the sources such as Wikipedia because HE knows better. Then has the nerve to talk about EGOS...

But since I actually try to "educate" myself... What was it Mr. Peabody was saying about Lemmy not playing deep bass? Heaviest Bass Riff Of All Time?! (Tutorial + Tab) - YouTube

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Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

Amazing how long it took you to find an online response. Since you "try" to educate yourself, please check into the term "heavy" as used to refer to rock and the word "deep" or "low" as it pertains to bass frequencies. In trying to rdeem yourself you actually proved my point. Thanks

A clue, bass guitar amplifiers hav tone cntrols, some EQ's, regardless of using open E it can still never touch low frequencies

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I already posted what wikipedia defines as Heavy in Heavy Metal. What loudness mastered, dynamic range squashed, examples of screeching noises you listen to on your system is your problem. I listened to this genre 20 years ago and gave up. I was trying to help the OP with his question since I built a system with that genre in mind many years ago and it was tolerable and even somewhat enjoyable for a few select groups. I am not into it any longer but obviously you are the expert on the subject. Have fun with it.

+1 on the Harbeth P3ESR - love them for near-field listening. Not so sure about adding subs in an apartment environment, bass tends to really travel and attract unwanted attention.

In your budget, with used gear, assuming you get reasonably good deal, I would go for B&W 805 D3, with Naim Uniti Nova and REL T9i. It might go little over budget, but worth it. Nova does not have theater bypass.

you really want a horn speaker with a fast bass,
jbl synthesis s3900 or 3800 would be my recommendation for your room and music type.
you want a fast, stable and full sounding amp, one that has authorotive weight!

a b&w 805 wouldnt be my pick, that speaker is good but more into resolution and 3d imaging.

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Originally Posted by NekoAudio

@metalgod01 The people I know that like heavy metal or metal in general tend to prefer being able to hear everything clearly and with detail, across the frequency spectrum but I think mid-range and treble tends to be more important than playing deep, and of course at decent volumes without fatigue. In other words, warm-sounding or harmonic distortion is not desired. I am getting that impression from your second post.

Based on your budget and other criteria, you might consider the NAD M33 streaming DAC integrated amp. I think it has a good chance of matching the type of sound you'd be looking for, and I am optimistic of the sound improvement the Purifi Eigentakt amplifier modules provide over previous generation ICEPower, UcD, nCore modules. The built-in Dirac will help.

It doesn't have HDMI output for displaying playback information (I don't think you'll find anything like that without just getting a separate TV-oriented set-top box or using an HTPC), and doesn't have a dedicated HT bypass button/mode but I think you can use a preset or macro to configure one of the analog inputs that way.

If you want to break it out into two boxes, you could get an Apple TV or NVIDIA Shield type device to use your TV as a display during playback, and then there are more integrated DAC amp options with HT bypass available to you.

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or the Hegel 390 and soon to be a Roon end point. I’m a huge metal head

Not specific recommendations but rather a general budget suggestion for an all digital set up:
75%-80% speakers/room
25%-20% for the rest.
Keep in mind that you due to your music preference you may need to include a subwoofer in your speaker/room budget.

Check out Aperion Audio for speakers. Good value for the money. I had a them in my kids TV room in my West Palm Beach house. Punch way above their cost. Their subs leave much to be desired. Look elsewhere for subs.

See if you can find a old anthem 5 channel amp.. again what I had in their room. I think I spent a few grand on a used one.


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