Anomaly between my Lumin U1Mini and my DAC

Hi there

I use Roon to play to my Lumin U1 Mini and via USB to my Sony TA H1ES headphone amp/DAC.
I set Roon to play at maximum PCM bitrate so Roon recognizes that my system can handle up to 32b 384k.
The anomaly is that the front panel of the Lumin shows PCM 384k 32b as expected but the front panel of my Sony which handles 32b signal shows an entry of 24b and then upsamples the signal to 32b.

So is it my DAC not recognizing 32b signal or is it Lumin not sending 32b signal to my DAC?
However if I set Roon to send 24b signal to the Lumin then the 2 displays both show 24b.

Your support would be helpful to understand this.
Thanks!

Just to tell you to not worry with the black stripe on the Lumin front panel
My display is ok. But there is something with image refresh frequency of the display my phone could not handle perhaps

You might check if you have "audio re-sampling" turned on in the Lumin device preferences?

No audio resampling in the LUMIN. Everything done by Roon. LUMIN reads 32b 384k as sent by Roon. The question is does it transport what it receives to the dac?

Edit

Let me check after some tests. LUMIN resampling was set to off. But when I clicked custom, it appears that I previously set it as 24b. Now I set it again to Native and shut it again. I will see if by doing that there is a change

I just checked. Made bit depth handling as native then turned off resampling in Lumin. I have still the problem

Hi there
It seems the problem is coming from the Lumin or from my Lumin configuration.
I tried to connect my Sony Amp directly to my laptop and set Roon in the laptop to play at max bitrate. Then no problem the amp reads 32b as it is supposed to be.

How is the U1 MINI and the TA-ZH1ES connected together? Coaxial or USB?

Please turn off Volume Control of U1 MINI in Lumin app settings.

Hi Peter. USB. Volume is turned off

Hi Peter
Do you think about something to correct this?
I mean there is no way for Lumin sending 32b and the DAC not recognizing it.
And as I said the DAC does recognize 32b signal when this one is sent from a laptop.
Many thanks

What is the source of the music file you are using to test? Are you sure the least significant 8 bits are not zeroes?

When using the laptop, was that done in exclusive mode with an ASIO driver, and bypassing the Windows mixer?

Our 32-bit playback was professionally tested by a corporate customer, so I know Lumin 32-bit playback is working with their chosen DACs.

Peter, hello.

Not sure this is related to the music but here is what happens.
I use Tidal, Qobuz, CD, HiRes, or any other stream. But what is important is that I use Roon for all the music. And I set up the DSP in Roon to upsample the music to 32b 384k. The display in the Lumin shows 32b 384k. But the display in the TA-ZH1ES shows entry signal of 24b 384k.

When I do the same thing with a PC using the WASAPI driver of Windows or the ASIO driver provided by Sony, I set the DSP in Roon to upsample to 32b 384k.
I hit play and then the display in the TA-ZH1ES shows entry signal of 32b 384k as it is supposed to do using exactly the same track and the same method ie Roon upsampling the signal to 32b 384k.

ASIO driver is in exclusive mode anytime in my configuration.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wklie

Our 32-bit playback was professionally tested by a corporate customer, so I know Lumin 32-bit playback is working with their chosen DACs.

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Not sure I understand
Your 32b playback was tested in a particular DAC. Good
But Lumin U1 Mini is a 32b player right? It is supposed to deliver 32b to ALL DACS that support 32b right?
You mean that there are some cases where the Lumin dont deliver 32b signal to DACs that support 32b?

Peter
When I listen to 32b 384k from Roon in my Lumin
And then when I go to sample rate customization in the Lumin app
When I switch between native and 24b, music don’t stop at all unlike if I switch between 16b and 24b
I keep on switching between 24b and native, and the display on the Lumin keeps displaying 32b
What’s the meaning of this?
Thanks for help

I will post a video of this in this forum and on Roon’s forum to try to get help also

Hi Peter
This thread was left unanswered
Can you please help me find a solution about this 32b output problem?

Please find a real 32bit music file (with non-zero least significant bits), and use Lumin app instead of Roon to play it. See what the DAC displays.

Do you by any chance have any link where I can find this?

And I am wondering how by any reason the signal path showed by Roon ie transferring 32b audio to the Lumin and the display showed by the Lumin ie 32b cannot be related to a real 32b stream?

And then why the same process done with my PC, ie Roon upsampling the file to 32b shows correct display in my DAC?

All of what I am saying is showed in the pictures above

This is something wrong with the LUMIN, I cannot find something else. But I am happy to do the test you mentioned if only you can do the test yourself and then send me back the file and do it also in my side

Proof that Lumin USB outputs 32 bit from Roon using RME ADI-2 Pro FS DAC native bit test:

By the way, Lumin supports USB DSD256 output to this DAC and several other RME DAC.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wklie

Proof that Lumin USB outputs 32 bit from Roon using RME ADI-2 Pro FS DAC native bit test:

By the way, Lumin supports USB DSD256 output to this DAC and several other RME DAC.

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[emoji15]... Case closed [emoji51][emoji16]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nicoff

[emoji15]... Case closed [emoji51][emoji16]

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No the case is not closed

I see the picture Peter. That's fine. So maybe there is a solution.
I understand you did the same test than me ie upsampling to 32b with Roon. Let's call this the test.
How come when I do the test with my Lumin, my DAC understands only 24b, and when I do the same test with my PC, my DAC understands 32b?

By the way, when Roon is set to upsample to DSD256, the Lumin and the DAC show the same ie DSD 11,2Mhz so I have no problem with DSD.

The fact is I prefer for SQ consideration my DAC doing the upsampling to DSD rather than Roon. So my standard listening config is to set Roon with Max PCM bitrate and let the DAC do the rest

DAC-specific issue cannot be investigated without a DAC being accessible by us. Besides, if 24-bit works, then it's not a great problem as 32-bit is not offering any gains at the DAC. (32-bit is only useful as an intermediate step in signal processing.) According to Stereophile measurements, no existing DAC has higher than measured 22 bit resolution.

Thanks. Of course this thread is not about SQ matters. It is only for understanding why Lumin outputs 32b in some capable DACs and not 32b in other 32b capable DACs

If someone can do the test ie upsampling a flow into 32b using Roon and tell us what his DAC shows, that would be great to understand

In any case I know the Sony TA-H1ES DAC is 32b capable. It correctly shows 32b flow when it is sent by my PC. But it does not show 32b when the flow is handled by Lumin U1 Mini

And with no regards to SQ, I find that this a technical shame

Quote:

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Originally Posted by skbe

I keep on switching between 24b and native, and the display on the Lumin keeps displaying 32b
What’s the meaning of this?

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And about this Peter?
Lumin display shows 32b as in the picture above. I take the Lumin app, I set upsampling to Custom. I switch between Native and 24b, nothing happens.

Ie i can set the Lumin Custom config to 24b, the Lumin display still shows 32b. This is not a technical issue you should fix?

That 32-bit display means it is accepting 32-bit data from Roon.

So the Lumin is accepting 32b from Roon but transporting only 24b to my 32b capable DAC

Video to follow

Lol do you know I was considering upgrading to Lumin U1 with another setup in another room?

For 6k do you think I will do compromises?

Here is the video
Lumin shows 32b, custom upsampling set to 24b, Lumin display still shows 32b, my DAC shows 24b
Lumin shows 32b, custom upsampling off or set to native, Lumin display still shows 32b, my DAC shows 24b
My conclusion is that the Lumin U1 Mini is not capable to transport 32b to my 32b DAC
I understand Peter showed us a proof of a DAC capable of reading the 32b from Lumin
But it is a big problem that these 32b are not transported to every 32b capable DAC
This is not a SQ thing, this is only something related to honesty and support

Streamable

Buy another 32Bit Dac and see if the same thing happens.

Dont automatically blame the Lumin, it could easily be the Sony. Or perhaps theres some sort of communication/handshake issue between them, not the fault of either. Try to reach out to Sony and see if you even get a reply.

Better yet, stop worrying about it. Just listen to the music.

I do enjoy my music no worries about this. I do even enjoy the music with my Lumin

But there is a technical issue that is not fixed. Or simply the Lumin is a 32b player is a false sentence. Because it don’t play 32b streams with all 32b DACs

And no it cannot be the Sony. As I said it shows 32b when “the test” is done with my laptop

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BlueFox

Better yet, stop worrying about it. Just listen to the music.

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You’re right after all. But I just wanted to share it with you. Anyway I am done

Peter, sorry to insist on this
I bought a Lumin U1 Mini thinking it is a 32 bits player on 32 bits capable DAC
My DAC is 32 bits and Lumin U1 Mini does not deliver over USB 32 bits flow
So I want this solved. It is not acceptable to only make it deliver 24 bits
I want my 32 bits as it was promised in the webpage
Maybe you need to update the drivers on the USB output of the Lumin, I don't know

Why dont you bring it back to your Dealer, see what he can figure out for you.

Unfortunately this is not a problem that my dealer can deal with
This is the sadness
It is in the Lumin, the specs are not true for every configuration. Something wrong with its USB drivers

The test proves that Lumin is able to output 32-bit. We also output 32-bit to XMOS and ITF-based USB DAC (recent Esoteric). Every DAC is different, especially for Linux. Take native DSD for example, many DAC is able to do native DSD in Windows but not in Linux.

If your DAC shows the same problem with another Linux Roon Bridge, then your DAC has a limitation in Linux.
If your DAC shows 32-bit with another Linux Roon Bridge, then the current Lumin firmware has a limitation with your particular DAC.

Again, 32-bit data is not significant at the DAC end unless you’re doing further digital processing that is built into the DAC instead of before it (in the Roon Core).

The Lumin is able to output DSD to my DAC but not 32 bits. How come this limitation is only for 32 bits?

And I do further processing as I prefer the DSD upsampling of my DAC rather than Roon’s

skbe, a firmware update for your TA-ZH1ES was released back in 2017 that specifically:

Quote:

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Corrects a condition where the headphones are misidentified as a 24bit/384kHz source when playing 32bit/384kHz content from a Walkman® player

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Not sure how old your unit is but maybe this is related to your problem. There's an updater application for Windows and also one for Mac.

The Sony TA-ZH1ES user manual [PDF] also only mentions compatibility with Windows or Mac. It doesn't indicate any compatibility with Linux. But it also says the USB audio driver would be automatically installed on Windows 7 and 8, which is a little odd to me because it was Windows 10 that first added automatic support for USB Audio 2.0. But maybe Sony registered something with Microsoft.

You may wish to ask Sony if there is a 32-bit issue with some transports. Historically, USB Audio has generally only worked exactly as expected from a Mac.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NekoAudio

skbe, a firmware update for your TA-ZH1ES was released back in 2017 that specifically:



Not sure how old your unit is but maybe this is related to your problem. There's an updater application for Windows and also one for Mac.

The Sony TA-ZH1ES user manual [PDF] also only mentions compatibility with Windows or Mac. It doesn't indicate any compatibility with Linux. But it also says the USB audio driver would be automatically installed on Windows 7 and 8, which is a little odd to me because it was Windows 10 that first added automatic support for USB Audio 2.0. But maybe Sony registered something with Microsoft.

You may wish to ask Sony if there is a 32-bit issue with some transports. Historically, USB Audio has generally only worked exactly as expected from a Mac.

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Thank you for your attempt to help me
Really appreciate it
I am aware of this and it is already installed it
This firmware update is to correct something with Walkman input
I am using the USB B input

Mr Lie

here my latest questions about this Lumin anomaly. We need the truth, Mr Lie.

Where in this leaflet it is said that Lumin is Linux based and then not working flawlessly with a large population of DACs, those not Linux prepared?

http://www.luminmusic.com/downloads/...ni-leaflet.pdf

Secondly, did you try your Lumin USB output with at least one Windows/Mac compatible DAC?

Lastly, how come the Lumin does not correctly output 32b but seems to correctly output DSD? Knowing this, can it still be a Linux/Non Linux compatibility problem?

It isn't typical for audio electronics, or really any consumer electronics, to include in the general marketing and user documents detailed technical information about the hardware and software stack. It's not like your Denon receiver identifies which processors, operating system, and hardware drivers it is using. Neither does your microwave or printer. This is generally fine because it doesn't matter (and it would only confuse consumers) as the communication is almost always based on some sort of standard, in this case USB Audio.

Because it is using a standard protocol, as long as the two endpoints can agree on the data being send between them, then things will work. But sometimes the full set of data encodings / sub-protocols doesn't match, and so only a subset will work. It's a bit misleading to say a DAC is "Windows/Mac compatible", as really it's more appropriate to say something like a DAC is USB Audio 1.0, or 2.0, or 3.0 compatible and then also indicate what bit-depths and sample rates it works with, for given data encodings and sub-protocols. For example, a DAC might say it supports 24-bit/192kHz LPCM but does not support 32-bit/384kHz LPCM, even if it was using USB Audio 2.0 in both cases.

The Lumin U1 Mini absolutely works with DACs that are "Windows/Mac compatible" in the sense it works with DACs that accept USB Audio (probably 2.0).

DSD over USB Audio is really DSD over PCM over USB Audio. Support for DSD over PCM of whatever sample rate is somewhat orthogonal to support of a specific LPCM bit depth, since they're not going to be encoded/interpreted the same. Going back to the paragraph above, support for the DSD data encoding / internal protocol that is working for you doesn't really have any specific bearing on support for the 32-bit LPCM data encoding / internal protocol that isn't working for you.

Based on your experience, I can only assume that the U1 Mini and the TA-ZH1ES don't agree on something related to 32-bit LPCM, but I couldn't really say what. When two endpoints are unable to communicate properly, you can't really blame one or the other unless one of them is obviously speaking incorrectly (the U1 Mini speaks 32-bit with other DACs, and your TA-ZH1ES speaks 32-bit with other sources, and they both claim support so I don't think we can conclude for certain one of them is speaking incorrectly) or using a non-standard/non-fully-compliant "dialect", possibly by design or due to a bug (this seems more likely, but without examining the data over the wire one can't really say which side is at fault). Personally I think it would be worth your time to also ask Sony if there are any known issues with 32-bit LPCM over USB input.

Thank you for your time I learned things

However:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NekoAudio

It isn't typical for audio electronics, or really any consumer electronics, to include in the general marketing and user documents detailed technical information about the hardware and software stack. It's not like your Denon receiver identifies which processors, operating system, and hardware drivers it is using. Neither does your microwave or printer. This is generally fine because it doesn't matter (and it would only confuse consumers) as the communication is almost always based on some sort of standard, in this case USB Audio.

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No need to tell me about microwaves and wash dishers. Auralic clearly stipulates their streamers are Linux and may not work well with non Linux DACs. Lumin should have said the same in the leaflet

You are not a simple user like me that an investment of 2k needs to be worth it. You are an audio reseller with a shop in San Jose, California. And you sell Lumins. Do you sell Auralics as well?

I imagine if a customer comes to you in the future and says he wants a Lumin for its Sony TAxxxx DAC, you would tell him the truth, right?

Best

Quote:

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Originally Posted by skbe

Do you sell Auralics as well?

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No, we don't carry Auralic. I have experience with them and recommend them as an option to some people depending what they're looking for.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by skbe

I imagine if a customer comes to you in the future and says he wants a Lumin for its Sony TAxxxx DAC, you would tell him the truth, right?

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Since pretty much all audio streamers are running Linux or another embedded OS that uses USB audio drivers more closely related to the Linux than not, I would mention that I've read online of someone who had a problem with 32-bit LPCM playback and their TA-ZH1ES. That if one is considering the TA-ZH1ES and cares about 32-bit LPCM playback, then this is something they should be aware of.

I'm simply trying to steer you in the direction of asking Sony, because in my opinion they're likely the only people who can give you the answer you're looking for.

Neko I know you think as a Lumin dealer you are trying to help but if you guys don't start ignoring him he won't stop. In his year as a member here he has only commented in the Lumin section and the vast majority of his posts are complaints about things he didn't bother to research in advance of his purchase. He doesn't really want help he just wants his way and to complain. He obviously doesn't have anything else to do. Lumin makes great products but their operation and software may not be for everyone and every situation and that's why there are choices. If after a year a "normal" person was as unhappy with a piece of gear as he appears to be they would have sold or traded it and moved on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NekoAudio

I'm simply trying to steer you in the direction of asking Sony

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Yeah I know, thanks for your time
I sent them an email. I will see what they have to say
Anyways I hope this can be solved, either by Lumin or by Sony

Quote:

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Originally Posted by skbe

Yeah I know, thanks for your time
I sent them an email. I will see what they have to say
Anyways I hope this can be solved, either by Lumin or by Sony

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I'm glad you are trying to do everything you can to make both products function the way you expect. The reality is that they may never communicate exactly the way you want them to or to simply display something that you want to see. Thankfully, both products are rather inexpensive, the U1 mini is Lumin's least expensive player and resale is quite good on them. I would suggest that you simply sell it and move on, hopefully the next player will make you happy.

Just for your information. The Lumin U1 Mini is in my basement and I am trying to sell it.
I bought an Auralic Aries G1 and it worked perfectly with my headphone amp.
Meaning the signal sent is the one received by the Sony.
While it is hard to make a difference in Sound Quality, I have a feeling that it is clearer and more enjoyable.
The Aries permits embedded EQ if necessary, meaning for listening without Roon for example.
The display is nice with covert art if chosen by the user. It can be text as well or simply off.
Also the Aries permits me also to use Wifi and to get rid of many cables.
Aries has built in IR receiver and can get remote control signal without sacrificing a usb socket.
It is simply a better value for a price not much higher.
I much regret my Lumin purchase. I should have more research before buying it.
And this is my last post I have nothing to do more here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by skbe

Just for your information. The Lumin U1 Mini is in my basement and I am trying to sell it.
I bought an Auralic Aries G1 and it worked perfectly with my headphone amp.
Meaning the signal sent is the one received by the Sony.
While it is hard to make a difference in Sound Quality, I have a feeling that it is clearer and more enjoyable.
The Aries permits embedded EQ if necessary, meaning for listening without Roon for example.
The display is nice with covert art if chosen by the user. It can be text as well or simply off.
Also the Aries permits me also to use Wifi and to get rid of many cables.
Aries has built in IR receiver and can get remote control signal without sacrificing a usb socket.
It is simply a better value for a price not much higher.
I much regret my Lumin purchase. I should have more research before buying it.
And this is my last post I have nothing to do more here.

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The WiFi functionality will negatively impact sound quality, but glad you finally got something the way that works for you.