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while i know it is subjective and system-dependent, it is always good to hear others' opinions and learn from their experience...
what do you prefer and/or recommend in terms of a phono-amp: tubes or solid state -- or even hybrid?
what do you see as the pros and cons of each?
is a tube phono-amp in a system with tube amplification too much of a good thing?
thanks!!
I have used both tubed and solid state phono stages in the past with varying degrees of success. What I have found to provide the best sound is a tubed phono stage with a step up transformer. The SUT eliminates noise issues that can exist with all phono stages when using low output cartridges. I have really appreciated the dynamic sound and additional micro details that the SUT has provided. Of course, some tubed phono stages use internal transformers in their designs so that might be another option as well. Just sharing my experience. Best of luck in your search!
Whats most important is not if Your PP is Tube or SS , but if you have enuff adjustability to match( Gain , Pf, impedance and EQ) differing carts, ohhh and its all Discrete ...
Regards ..
I tried both, I stuck with my Manley.
Have you read Myles review in PF. He loves the SS FM phono preamp. He's even smitten with a SS amp and preamp. His CJ appear to be sitting idle for the time being
That FM Acoustics phono I bet is awesome. Would love to hear it.
For me, even though I have arguably the best tube Phonostage preamp at home, I would say, overall, “it depends”.
With my Avantgarde speakers, the tube Phonostage was the ticket. Added some meat on the bones and richness. But with my MBL’s, if I was doing it today, I would probably go for a SS Phonostage to provide some additional dynamics and separation and focus. I still miss my Vitus Masterpiece Phonostage. It was phenomenal.
In terms of world class SS phonostages I would consider, the list is very short: 4 box CH, Soulution and the Boulder come to mind. I would love to hear that FM Acoustics Phonostage too.
But my VAC Statement is just so good in other areas, it would be hard to part with and I love having four inputs, all adjustable, plus, it’s drop dead gorgeous.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
I'm not sure the answer is to whether SS or tubes with respect to phono stages is definitive one way or the other. To paraphrase an experienced engineer I was talking with some time back, "There no bad materials, there only bad applications of materials."
The same is true of phono stages; it really comes down to the skill of the designer and capability of the company during manufactuuring.
Some of the best phono stages I've heard, e.g. the Zestro Andros Deluxe, are tube, and some of the best, e.g. John Curl's designs, are SS. And then there is Tim de Paravincini of E.A.R., who says he can design SS equipment to be indistinguishable with the qualities and attributes we like of tubed equipment. Having owned two of his phono stages, the tube E.A.R. 834P and the SS E.A.R. 324, he's right. And in the case of these two, the SS sounds better. Same thing applies to other components, including DACs. One of the best DACs I've ever heard was Gordon's Wavelength tube DAC with tube rectification, and one of the best SS DACs I've heard was the MSB Analog. Lampizator and TotalDAC are other examples.
No disrespect here, but I see audiophiles all the time looking for definitive answers and generalizations. Is a bass-reflex box speaker better than a horn-loaded speaker? Are Amperex Bugle Boy 6922s better than GE/Jan? Answer: It's just as Mike stated above: it depends. So, it comes down to this...there aren't any definitive answers. High-end audio is too complex a set of functionalities and technologies as design embodments for fulfilling or delivering those functionalities, and our individual perception of music is too widely different for there to be definitive answers.
Here's a way to decide: go and listen to some, and go with the one you like the sound of best. Simple.
Hi Rex,Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingrex
I don’t think anyone has read my review of the FM Acoustics phonostage for PF because it hasn’t been written.
Yes, I did review the Goldmund amp and preamp for PF in which I detailed why I switched and went over to the dark side. I posted the link elsewhere on AS.
And no my cj amp and preamp aren’t sitting idle. Unlike other people, I can’t afford to sit on gear. Someone out there is very happily enjoying those cj products.
thanks for all the posts! really hard to audition at this time -- so, just looking to generically know what others hear and don't hear in these two type phono-amps.
That would be a very interesting turn , as for years Myles would fight me on how good FMA products were , even his sidekick MEP would pile in on the product ..Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingrex
Manny has always made top tier products and yes the PP is great ..
Regards
had a kuzma tt and a fma full loom amplification some years back.
played on the point like no other. very colorfull and freshness. shouldnt have sold it.
these were theyr smaller models and i wished a bit more grunt.
met manuel huber in the factory once. very respectful man! wouldnt have sold me anything directly but gave me a lot of time showing me his place. he explaind for example that his basic phona amp has the very same parts inside as the symetric version...actually twice the amount, so you would think it costs double in the worst case, but no, it costs tripple.
he said the main costfactor is to match parts with closest measurements together. and to find the double amount that is that similar is 5 times the work. in the factory it was dead quiet, everything i saw were lots of people sitting and measuring. mr. huber kept saying it is all about selectioning and matching.
Good thread. I have had an Einstein "The Turntable's Choice "TTC" (balanced version) for half dozen years. Have wanted to have some tube in my phono stage-- the Einstein is SS. But Einstein is very much a tube component mfg. The TTC was built to be as tube-like as they could make it. Excellent phono stage, it was Fremer's reference for many years in the 'oughts.
I was looking to upgrade it, and chose the Ypsilon which as the C3G tube. But the Ypsilon would not play well with my Benz LPS which has internal impedance of 40 ohms, quite high for a low output MC cartridge. I'd have needed a custom SUT, so chose to abandon that transaction. (First time I ever backed out of an A'gon deal.)
Someone suggested I should upgrade my cartridge instead, so after a lot of searching ended up finding an Etsuro Gold on the used market. But the Etsuro, with very low internal impedance, means I'd need to possibly get custom loading plugs for the Einstein. That led me to looking at other phono stages again, and after a visit to Mike Lavigne's place up in Seattle, I decided I'd go with a CS Port phono stage which, interestingly, uses the same C3G tube as the Ypsilon. The CSPort has great synergy with the Etsuro carts, as it is designed for low output MC carts <20ohms. CS Port solders the tube directly to the board, as the tube is supposed to have reliability in excess of 10,000 hours.
So, I will post more once I finally have the CSPort and the Etsuro playing together. But if the Ypsilon uses that tube and it is as highly regarded as it is, and the CSPort also uses it (and I've heard that with my own ears) perhaps there is something magic about that tube and its implementation.
As to saying goodbye to the Einstein... when I was considering something else I included even the ARC Ref10 in my short list, along with the REF3, and the Dag phono stage. I was told going to a tube stage I'd likely miss the speed of the SS stage, and the recommendation was the Dag as it had the speed of SS but gave up little to nothing to tubes. The only coloration of the Einstein, as I heard it reviewed, was a bit of emphasis of the leading edge of transients. Only when I compared it, in my system, to a Doshi phono stage (v3) did I hear the coloration, which is by no means unpleasant, it adds a wee bit of excitement, but it is, after all, a coloration. And I would say it is only heard in a direct comparison. When it came down to it I chose to stick with the Einstein vs. the Doshi as I felt the move, overall, would have been lateral. Give a little here, get a little there, but not a significant upgrade.
So, SS vs tube--it really comes down to implementation. I would argue though at the lower end of the market it is easier to make a good sounding SS stage than tube. This comes from my having owned one of the SimAudio Moon LP3 phono stages when they first came out.
The CSPort is, from what I hear and what I'm told, clearly a great value and can improve greatly with the choice of cables used.
Really?Quote:
Originally Posted by a.wayne
I am calling fake news on that one.
What is true is it’s been at least five years and you hide in anonymity behind your computer screen and have never told us what equipment you own. All the time casting disparaging remarks every chance you can at other people.
Nice try at trolling though.
You can stop playing your passive-agressive games—like how you tried to be my friend on audioasylum.
Hahaha ,
Project much ..?
I guess integrity is not high in your quarters, MEP liked your post too , good pairing ..
Anyway all your old Wallet post may still be available proving the liar both of you are, attacking me on and on about my FMA posts , MEP always felt it was the cheapest Radio shack looking chassis ever At the time , let me know if you want me to copy them here destroying your last ounce of credibility , or , you can run off and hide, like always let me know if you accept the challenge ... :)
BTW Do you still have your speakers setup 3 ft apart ..?
Myles just admit you and MEP were wrong and move on ....!
Look more fake news from a audio troll. Always deflecting and never answering the question. Your MO.Quote:
Originally Posted by a.wayne
You mean this thread on WBF where you took a good beat down?
FM Acoustics amps | What's Best Audio and Video Forum. The Best High End Audio Forum on the planet!
Funny I read all 17 pages and you are as usual full of it.
Or this one?
FM Acoustics 268 preamp - the debate around its Linearizer | What's Best Audio and Video Forum. The Best High End Audio Forum on the planet!
You take a good beat down there.
Isn’t it funny I’ve posted tons of pics of my system, many people including manufacturers have heard it and they’ve always left being impressed. Impressed that they’ve never heard Magicos sound like this and so good. But keep up your BS. You, still hiding in mommy and daddy’s basement. And no they are not three feet apart. But would you expect anything more from a loser troll?
maybe you two should get a room? ...or, at least do us all a favor and just PM each other with all this pillow talk. :heart:
now back to our regularly scheduled programming...
What the spacing about 3 or 3.2 ft , you should try the Magico mini’s for such a small space , a little taller than you, but you will get over it eventually ..!
Hahaha , Nuff said :)Quote:
Originally Posted by aKnyght
agreed, it is amazing how ignorant some audiophiles can be.Quote:
Originally Posted by aKnyght
as for your phono-pre question I've had a Fosgate Signature in my kit for years now. Zero interest in changing ........
I think you can find your desired sound / SQ in either category. Tubed, SS, SS that sound tubey, tubes that sound SS.
There are a number of low priced phono stages (and tables) you could start with, and play around with vinyl for awhile. See if the romance continues with the rituals needed. If vinyl and you continue the relationship, then auditions might be in order to choose a higher end models.
You could do a decent starter system, table, cartridge, phono stage, record cleaner machine, brush, needle cleaner, and records...
I bought a few of my favorites in new vinyl, and trolled used stores, for awhile. I started with a semi broken table from my dad’s attic, and his old records, a Cambridge Audio phono stage, and the VPI record cleaner.
It worked for me, a 61 year old guy, who grew up with records. I built a DIY kit - K&K Audio Maxxed Out Phono Amp, with silver Lundahl MC input transformers. It used at FET/tube hybrid design. Hard to beat. No longer available.
It will depend on your preferences though. The phono side of audio is the most subjective, IMO.
More importantly, you are stepping over to the vinyl rabbit hole... I can tell you from recent personal experience, the hole is deep and dark and definitely knows how to steal your wallet :)....Quote:
Originally Posted by aKnyght
Oh, you might want to consider Moon by SimAudio. I really like my Neo 310LP, and I have seen reviews where they put the 810 against most anything out there... even their little guy is pretty amazing for how cheap it is!!!!
One of the key things missing in this discussion is MM vs. MC. I assume that everyone is talking about MC so let me start there.
Technically due to high voltage noise from ALL tube amplification stages, large geometry Solid State front ends or step up transformers will have the edge in terms of noise performance with MC cartridges. That’s a given. Everything else will be in the specific implementation.
thanks for pointing this out. pretty much all the tube phono-amps -- or at least the ones i have been paying attention to -- have internal step-up transformers as the first MC gain stage.Quote:
Originally Posted by W9TR
although, i do see a number long-established and highly-regarded manufacturers only make phono-amps for MM as a matter of design choice requiring an external SUT for MC. i must say, i find this traditionalist approach somehow quite attractive... thoughts by those here using this method would be welcome!
I sometimes circle the hole on a new phono stage. For me it would have to be all in one. I don't want cables and extra boxes. I gather my Allnic H1201 is pretty good for the money. Just what am I going to get that is that much better in my budget. And then do I go SS or Tube. All my gear is tube. It may be nice to have some SS. But if I go SS, am I trying to make my TT sound more like my pretty darn good digital front end. I have considered Zesto or Audiospecial phonolab. But am I getting better, or just a little different. I have kind of hit a point where I don't feel much interest in something new unless its going to be a lot better. Spending money for a small change or horizontal move is a non starter at this point.
You never mentioned your budget.
Lots of good insights provided by many on this thread. There are fantastic SS and Tube PPs in the market. Just go out and listen. Hope your dealer(s) allow for some home listening.
pretty hard to demo in the current environment, but home demos are possible for a few i have been looking at. in terms of budget, $6-7K msrp is the high end of what i have been considering ...but, i agree there are many nice PPs well below that.
Agree on the Moon by Simaudio. I just bought Moon 610LP phono (solid state) with the 820S power supply. Great great phono preamp in my opinion. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...832e1cfb42.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Randy Myers
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Wow, that is awesome! Loving my 310 and I realize 610 is a major upgrade, especially with that power supply. Very nice!
It would depend on the rest of your system and what you value. If you want ultimate quiet and high resolution, SS may be the way to go. If you favor a big sound stage, tonality, "air" around instruments and a more relaxed presentation, then tubes. Tubes will need replacing at some point however, but you can also chnage tubes to modify the sound of your phono stage. With SS, you are locked into that particular sound.
Preamp tubes last around 10,000 hours. Usually. I have owned my preamp 6 years and play thousands of hours each year. Still on the first set of tubes and they sound no different than a replacement set. They probably have 15,000 hours on them. My phono pre has about 6000 hours on them. Still perfect condition.Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM-123
Power tubes is a different story. And some brands drive their tubes harder than others.
This is true... I never had an issue with a tube in a pre-amp, but I did have power amp tubes require replacing. A friend of mine has some rather large VTL amps and he has to replace a few tubes every year. I have never seen an amp go through tubes like his does. His matching VTL pre never has had a tube go bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingrex
Hi everyone, I'm new to these shores.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingrex
Having said that, I can echo Kingrex above regrading pre amps tubes.
Re, the original question, one of the best phono stages I have ever had was inside a CAT Ultimate pre; not to bore you with hi-end speak, the sound was outstanding on all fronts. The all-time best phono I have listened to is the FMA Phonomaster followed closely by the smaller FM122: the CAT comes close in resolution and dynamics --- and the noise is negligible.
All of which doesn't really answer the question: tube OR ss...
I'd say either can do the job, the best tube designs usually combine a warmish hue with explosive dynamics
Here is another opinion from Switzerland.
this exceptional phono amplifier which works on batteries and completely with silver wire (even the toroidal transformers).
A sound with ultra realistic stamps, absolute transparency, sound that hovers in your living room. I am parting with it because I unfortunately need to reduce my stereo, 2 children and soon less space. End of an era, I had finally found my sound...so goes life.
This is the personal version of Serge Schmidlin from Audio Consulting that he sold me in 2015 when he created the Meteor. I cannot send it because it is optimized as much as possible and no parts are firmly fixed in order to avoid unnecessary stress. Serge used it for his tests, hence the side with holes (there are speaker sockets that were there, I can put them back if necessary). One of the best phonographs in the world!
The fellow above also had the FMA 122.