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Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
A major innovation of Lumin X1 is its support for standard fiber optic networking. Since this technology may be relatively new to audiophiles (aside from those who work in IT), and getting a compatible set of everything that works is not quite trivial, this thread is created to list known compatible setups, and possible network topologies for the X1 since it features both a fiber optic network port and a copper Ethernet port. Although the timing of this thread is a bit early, I hope it helps people who are considering to buy X1 have sufficient information for how the X1 can be set up. For existing Lumin products, compatible fiber media converters have already been listed in this post:
http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...l=1#post228808
Before going into details, let me answer the question of why bother with it when copper Ethernet works great. For digital music transmission, I have no doubt Ethernet is better than USB, especially when the source for the USB is a general purpose computer or NAS. However, just as people who use isolation products for USB can improve the sound quality significantly, some people found that doing optical isolation for Ethernet can make the already great sound quality even slightly better without spending a great deal of money. This is an observation made by some Lumin users, as well as users of other brands of network-capable DAC. As for the technical reason why some people hear a difference even if the digital bits are the same, there exists multiple theories that range from ground loop, shielding, and leakage current, etc. There is no electric noise in an optic fiber, so it is potentially a really good form of isolation.
Is Lumin the first to support fiber optic network in a network streamer? I think practically it is, excluding DIY products. If I'm not mistaken, MSB and Bel Canto use fiber for proprietary signal connections but not standard fiber optic network. (If I'm wrong please feel free to correct me.)
Note: Fiber optic network is totally different from TOSLINK - these are different things. Audiophiles typically do not use toslink because it usually results in jitter unless your DAC does a good job to reclock it.
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
This warning deserves its own post.
Do not connect both the X1 fiber optic network port (hereafter SFP port) and copper Ethernet port to the same switch or router - this forms a switching loop. This may bring down your whole network and your family will find that they cannot access the internet, until you disconnect the loop and reboot the whole network infrastructure.
Typically we have the following scenarios for the X1 network port connection:
Case 1: Use the SFP port only to fiber media converter or optical switch
Case 2: Use the copper Ethernet port only to WiFi router or switch
Case 3: Use the SFP port for connection to fiber media converter or optical switch, and use the copper Ethernet for a bridged connection to NAS or L1 (in another forum there are some people who advocate this type of bridged NAS connection for sound quality - our X1 users will be able test it easily whether this sounds better or worse.)
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
This is the Lumin Munich 2018 setup, and is probably easier and less costly to adopt than other setups. In these diagrams, Ethernet cable is not shown where it is obvious. FMC means fiber media converter.
L1 or NAS - WiFi Router with 1000Mbps Ethernet - FMC - fiber - Lumin X1 SFP
FMC: TP-Link MC210CS in Auto mode
fiber: Single mode LC-SC Duplex patch cord (Yellow)
SFP: TP-Link TL-SM311LS
Since optic fiber comes in single mode and multi mode, and there are SC and LC types of connectors, so there are all sorts of fiber variations. This is a single mode setup, so the FMC, fiber, and SFP are chosen to use single mode. The chosen FMC uses SC connector, but the SFP uses LC connector, so the fiber must be LC-SC otherwise it cannot be plugged in at all. The SFP and FMC pair is chosen in a way that is known to be compatible. The color yellow is significant because this is the standard for single mode fiber.
The difference between single mode and multi mode is that signal in single mode fiber can travel even longer distance. One may choose to use multi mode as well, but the FMC and the SFP will be different - this is NOT yet verified: for multi mode setup the FMC should be MC200CM, and the SFP should be TL-SM311LM. You'd need multi mode fiber instead of single mode fiber for a multi mode setup.
The TP-Link FMC has a limitation that its copper Ethernet port only works at 1000Mbps. It does not work at 100Mbps. If your WiFi router Ethernet port is 100Mbps, please replace the WiFi router with a contemporary model with 1000Mbps Ethernet ports, or insert a 1000Mbps switch such as Netgear GS105 between the router Ethernet 100Mbps port and the FMC. There may be other brand(s) of FMC that does not share this limitation, but you'd then need to find a compatible SFP with the brand of FMC you choose.
Note: In the link in post #1 I said to use a pair of FMC for other models of Lumin. For X1 you only need one, not a pair because X1 has SFP port. The receiver-side SFP will be powered by the X1 power supply. So there is no need to get another LPS for the FMC in an X1 setup.
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
Some people may choose to use an optical network switch instead of FMC. In another forum some people use the Diablo brand optical switch. We got an equivalent unit from China.
L1 or NAS - WiFi Router - Optical switch SFP - fiber - Lumin X1 SFP
In this setup you need a pair of the same SFP, e.g. TL-SM311LS, and a single mode LC-LC duplex patch cord (yellow).
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
great product. I use the S1 at today and i'm happy. (with L1 and Nas, standard power supply and Kenneth Lau p.s.)
The new X1 is a great temptation.....price will be around 18k? (europe)
Linn Klimax is now definitely dead
when the first pieces availables?
thank you
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
At work we use fs.com for media converters, SFPs, and fiber jumpers. The cost is cheaper than what you might find off Amazon, etc. I have not used these with Lumin of course, but we have good luck in an ISP environment.
$23 - MC that supports 10/100/1000 copper and standard (dual fiber) and BiDi (single fiber) SFPs:
https://www.fs.com/products/35333.html
$11 - Standard single mode SFP:
https://www.fs.com/products/29848.html
$9/$12 - BiDi single mode SFPs:
https://www.fs.com/products/29894.html
https://www.fs.com/products/29895.html
Fiber jumpers are around a few dollars each, depending on length. Just make sure you order with LC connector (single or dual) with UPC polish (blue connector). A 2mm thick jacket is good.
Note - For the BiDi SFPs it runs two wavelengths over the same strand of fiber, one for Tx and one for Rx. Therefore, you need to order in reverse pairs such as 1310/1490nm and 1490/1310nm
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
db33
The new X1 is a great temptation.....price will be around 18k? (europe)
when the first pieces availables?
For price discussions please see this thread:
http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...l=1#post238524
Prices are tentative and subjective to change. I don't have an ETA of when X1 can be shipped, but I hope soon.
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
vortrex
At work we use fs.com for media converters, SFPs, and fiber jumpers. The cost is cheaper than what you might find off Amazon, etc.
Amazon prices do fluctuate greatly. Not long ago it listed MC210CS at $45, now it's $70.
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
As you can see in the picture, I already use an optical bridge: Two TP-Link MC200CM (Multi mode, not single mode MC210CS) with an optic duplex, allowing me to connect an isolated secondary router for my streamer from my HIFI dedicated electrical circuit and this without pollution = Optical conversion and back to Ethernet conversion.
In my case, this new Lumin X1 optical port would allow me to eliminate my secondary network (and one TP-Link converter) for a purer sound.
My only technical question: Do I really need a TL-SM311LM since my duplex cable is only one meter long? :doubtful:
http://www.audioshark.org/attachment...id=22727&stc=1
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
Welcome to the forum, thank you for joining.
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
vinci92
As you can see in the picture, I already use an optical bridge: Two TP-Link MC200CM (Multi mode, not single mode MC210CS) with an optic duplex, allowing me to connect an isolated secondary router for my streamer from my HIFI dedicated electrical circuit and this without pollution = Optical conversion and back to Ethernet conversion.
In my case, this new Lumin X1 optical port would allow me to eliminate my secondary network (and one TP-Link converter) for a purer sound.
My only technical question: Do I really need a TL-SM311LM since my duplex cable is only one meter long? :doubtful:
If I understand your network topology correctly, and if you buy an X1 in the future, yes you'd need the TL-SM311LM SFP (note: not tested yet) to be plugged into the X1 SFP port
This way one of your MC200CM units can be eliminated. The other MC200CM to be used with X1 SFP needs to be changed from Force mode to Auto mode for connection to SFP. Your existing fiber cannot be used due to connector mismatch (and probably insufficient length). You would need a multi mode LC-SC duplex 50/125um fiber.
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
Thank you very much for the valuable information. If I buy the X1, I'm going to proceed to a long-term comparison between my current configuration and the TL-SM311LM SFP with the LC-SC duplex 50 / 125um. I will post all my impressions on this in this thread.
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wklie
Is Lumin the first to support fiber optic network in a network streamer? I think practically it is, excluding DIY products. If I'm not mistaken, MSB and Bel Canto use fiber for proprietary signal connections but not standard fiber optic network. (If I'm wrong please feel free to correct me.)
Note: Fiber optic network is totally different from TOSLINK - these are different things. Audiophiles typically do not use toslink because it usually results in jitter unless your DAC does a good job to reclock it.
Sorry Peter, I hate to say this but Lumin may not be the first to do this. I bought a streamer from Mivera called Superstream 2 yrs back which had ST fiber port. Its not a DIY product but he stopped producing anymore units.
Having said this, I am curious to know if the Transceivers are native to the MAC or does it go through an internal FMC ?
http://www.audioshark.org/attachment...id=22730&stc=1
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
Thanks for the info. The SFP socket is directly connected to our network hardware, so the answer is native.
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
Hi,
sorry my stupid question but i'm very "new" with streamer&music server....
Peter can you plaese say me as is to be connected the Mini 1x 10/100/1000Base to the router? i need 2 pcs.? what gove me this "operation" really in my system?
thank you very much for your understanding..
b rgds
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
I'm sure the question is not stupid, but I'm not sure I understand your question. Anyway, to upgrade from S1 to X1 it's a drop-in replacement with no other required changes, including your existing Ethernet setup.
Only if you want to try the optical network, and your WiFi router has 1000Mbps gigabit Ethernet port, then you can try the configuration in post #3. With the X1, you only need one FMC and one SFP, not two. The router is connected to the FMC via an Ethernet cable, and the FMC is connected to the SFP plugged into X1 via a duplex fiber.
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wklie
Only if you want to try the optical network, and your WiFi router has 1000Mbps gigabit Ethernet port, then you can try the configuration in post #3. With the X1, you only need one FMC and one SFP, not two. The router is connected to the FMC via an Ethernet cable, and the FMC is connected to the SFP plugged into X1 via a duplex fiber.
Or better yet, get a switch with a SFP slot :)
https://www.amazon.com/TRENDnet-Swit...+with+sfp+port
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
I try to be sure about the configuration... Is it possible to know were the TL-SM311LS sould be connected (into the MC210CS ok into the X1)? Thank you!
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
The TL-SM311LS is an SFP module and looks like this:
https://static.tp-link.com/TL-SM311L...980813769y.jpg
The SFP is to be plugged into the Lumin X1. See the top-left part of the below image. The silver socket with some circular holes is the SFP socket. You see the SFP module (TL-SM311LS) inside the socket, and a silver part of the SFP module that extends outside the socket with an extraction lever. The SFP connects to a duplex fiber with a LC connector (blue). The other end of the fiber (not shown) is connected to a MC210CS.
http://www.audioshark.org/attachment...id=22648&stc=1
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
Ok, so It's inside the X1 - It doesn't have to be purchased like the fiber cable and the converter.
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
vinci92
Ok, so It's inside the X1 - It doesn't have to be purchased like the fiber cable and the converter.
The SFP module is to be plugged into the X1, which only has an SFP socket (not a module). It's likely that the user will need to purchase a SFP module and plug it into the X1. It's unlikely that X1 will bundle with a SFP module because the choices of SFP need to be considered with the rest of the optical network for compatibility.
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
We've created a diagram which should hopefully make some of the options clearer.
http://www.audioshark.org/attachment...id=22858&stc=1
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mike
I hadn't paid attention to fiber connections until the Lumin X1 was announced and posted about, here at Audioshark.
On that second link, for the SFP module, there are a number of choices that look like they have the same output connector. Are all of these compatible, and just different specs, or is there only one (or more) that is compatible and should be chosen if one were going to implement its use with the Lumin X1?
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rnrmf
On that second link, for the SFP module, there are a number of choices that look like they have the same output connector. Are all of these compatible, and just different specs, or is there only one (or more) that is compatible and should be chosen if one were going to implement its use with the Lumin X1?
I would not say that all will be compatible, but so far the few ones we tested for X1 work. There are different wavelength spec of SFP. If you buy a pair of SFP in an optical switch configuration, it makes sense to buy a pair of the same SFP module. We will test more SFP and post them here, and in the future X1 users may also share their findings.
Tested so far:
Single-mode SFP:
- TP-Link TL-SM311LS (compatible with TP-Link MC210CS)
Multi-mode SFP:
- 10Gtek GLC-SX-MMD SFP-SX 850nm
- TP-Link TL-SM311LM (mentioned before but is just retested)
The two multi-mode SFP are compatible with each other in an optical switch configuration, both are compatible with TP-Link MC200CM in a FMC configuration.
We found that:
- The SFP module has to be inserted fully into the SFP slot of X1 otherwise it would not work. This tricked a beta tester and our staff.
- Note that the orientation of the SFP slot in X1 is up-side down compared to typical optical switches, so that lever of the SFP module should face downwards. This is easier because otherwise there is not enough space to insert a finger between the top of the X1 chassis and the SFP lever, when it is necessary to pull out the SFP using the lever.
- The two connectors in a SC duplex fiber cable may not be labelled, so it is possible the TX and RX fiber to be inserted into the wrong slot of the FMC. Check the LINK LED on the FMC.
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
vortrex
At work we use fs.com for media converters, SFPs, and fiber jumpers. The cost is cheaper than what you might find off Amazon, etc. I have not used these with Lumin of course, but we have good luck in an ISP environment.
$23 - MC that supports 10/100/1000 copper and standard (dual fiber) and BiDi (single fiber) SFPs:
https://www.fs.com/products/35333.html
$11 - Standard single mode SFP:
https://www.fs.com/products/29848.html
$9/$12 - BiDi single mode SFPs:
https://www.fs.com/products/29894.html
https://www.fs.com/products/29895.html
Fiber jumpers are around a few dollars each, depending on length. Just make sure you order with LC connector (single or dual) with UPC polish (blue connector). A 2mm thick jacket is good.
Note - For the BiDi SFPs it runs two wavelengths over the same strand of fiber, one for Tx and one for Rx. Therefore, you need to order in reverse pairs such as 1310/1490nm and 1490/1310nm
Based on your suggestion we ordered some SFP from fs.com for compatibility testing:
multi-mode 1000BASE-SX 850nm 550m Cisco-compatible:
https://www.fs.com/products/22138.html
multi-mode 1000BASE-SX 850nm 550m D-Link-compatible:
https://www.fs.com/products/15234.html
single-mode 1000BASE-LX 1310nm 10km Intel-compatible:
https://www.fs.com/products/15464.html
single-mode 1000BASE-ZX 1550nm 80km Cisco-compatible:
https://www.fs.com/products/22140.html
We bought several types of SFP (in pairs) including: SX 850nm 550m, LX 1310nm 10km, ZX 1550nm 80km. All pairs work normally in Lumin X1 with our optical switch.
Even the SFP for 1000Mbps copper Ethernet RJ45 port work in Lumin X1 too. So people who prefer to have two copper Ethernet ports on X1 can use that. However, 100Mbps Ethernet does not work in the SFP.
Copper RJ45 10000BASE-T Cisco-compatible:
https://www.fs.com/products/11773.html
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
Since we shipped some Lumin X1 Black, I'd like to give an update on the optical network stuff.
In order to answer questions about choice of optical network switch from dealers and for review purpose, at this point we're looking at Cisco SG112-24 Compact 24-port switch (USD119) as a potential candidate considering the brand, availability, price, and subjective listening results. We have received a preliminary positive report from a dealer, but are still waiting for the switch to arrive to do our own testing. While most unmanaged switches will work with Lumin app, when it comes to Roon further testing is required (especially for this particular brand).
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...82E16833422828
https://www.amazon.com/Cisco-Sg112-2.../dp/B00Z1N2ON2
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wklie
Since we shipped some Lumin X1 Black, I'd like to give an update on the optical network stuff.
In order to answer questions about choice of optical network switch from dealers and for review purpose, at this point we're looking at Cisco SG112-24 Compact 24-port switch (USD119) as a potential candidate considering the brand, availability, price, and subjective listening results. We have received a preliminary positive report from a dealer, but are still waiting for the switch to arrive to do our own testing. While most unmanaged switches will work with Lumin app, when it comes to Roon further testing is required (especially for this particular brand).
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...82E16833422828
https://www.amazon.com/Cisco-Sg112-2.../dp/B00Z1N2ON2
Good to learn of another option and look forward to the results of your tests.
On another note, the Cisco WS-C2960-8TC-L (EOL though) was all the rave on the Linn / Naim forums.
It's interesting that the reportedly better sounding Cisco switches are EOL items or expensive when new.
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
If Lumin X1 reports network error when you use optical fiber, the #1 cause is the SFP not properly inserted into the X1.
This photo from a customer shows the correct orientation on the X1:
http://audio.sg/pic/luminx1-06.jpg
Note that the orientation is very likely to be different from the optical network switch side:
http://www.avbuzz.com/audio-video/20...c/DSC01337.jpg
The reason for the opposite orientation is because Lumin X1 / S1 / A1 / T1 have their circuit boards mounted upside down. This helps with the use of really heavy interconnects, which can physically pull the connectors away from the board.
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
I have wondered a little why the USB connectors on the S1 are upside down compared to every other USB port I use. Thanks.
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
It has been brought to my attention that a Hong Kong company AfterDark. has produced an audiophile network switch with optical network, with different clock and IEC options. Although we have not tested it, they claim to have tested their product with Lumin X1, so I thought I'd mention it here in case anybody is interested.
https://www.afterdarkdot.com/collect...lo-mini-series
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wklie
It has been brought to my attention that a Hong Kong company AfterDark. has produced an audiophile network switch with optical network, with different clock and IEC options. Although we have not tested it, they claim to have tested their product with Lumin X1, so I thought I'd mention it here in case anybody is interested.
https://www.afterdarkdot.com/collect...lo-mini-series
I don't get the point of getting a switch since the Lumin needs a wifi connexion to be controled.. A simple ethernet / optical converter after, properly LPS powered, the wifi router should do the main job.
Envoyé de mon LG-H933 en utilisant Tapatalk
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
An optical network switch (with a SFP module) can be used as a FMC. Whether this expense brings better SQ over a simple FMC is up to debate.
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nonesup
Peter, what is an FMC?
Not Peter here, but FMC is a Fiber Media Converter which converts a wired Ethernet cable's signal for connection to a fiber optic cable. (linked item is just an example of such a product)
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nonesup
Peter, what is an FMC?
Please see post #3 for the FMC we used in Munich 2018. However, now we prefer using an optical network switch (post #4) instead of FMC, with a pair of single-mode SFP.
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
excited to see more reviews Mike! I'm about ready to pull the trigger!
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mike
Same here!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b96f0f54e2.jpg
Envoyé de mon LG-H933 en utilisant Tapatalk
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
I like it with a simple FMC
Envoyé de mon LG-H933 en utilisant Tapatalk
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wklie
In order to answer questions about choice of optical network switch from dealers and for review purpose, at this point we're looking at Cisco SG112-24 Compact 24-port switch (USD119) as a potential candidate considering the brand, availability, price, and subjective listening results. We have received a preliminary positive report from a dealer, but are still waiting for the switch to arrive to do our own testing. While most unmanaged switches will work with Lumin app, when it comes to Roon further testing is required (especially for this particular brand).
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...82E16833422828
https://www.amazon.com/Cisco-Sg112-2.../dp/B00Z1N2ON2
There is now an audiophile version of the Cisco SG112-24 Compact switch modified with Connor Winfield OCXO. This dealer also supplies CORNING ClearCurve glass fiber for Lumin X1 as well:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hiendy.com%2Fhififorum%2Fforu m.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D118289&edit-text=&act=url
https://www.clonesaudio.com/product-page/sg112-24-mod
Price is HKD5899 ~ roughly USD756. Power supply for the switch needs to be purchased separately.
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
I’m looking at:
http://thelinearsolution.com/ocxo_router.html
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wklie
There is now an audiophile version of the Cisco SG112-24 Compact switch modified with Connor Winfield OCXO.
Surprisingly, Kenneth Lau bought this and said it sounds better (using his LPS) than the modified Buffalo switch he used to sell. (I believe, but not 100% sure, he is using dCS.)
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
This should be available later this summer... and some who have heard this say it sounds even better than the linear solutions products:
https://www.sotm-audio.com/sotmwp/en...-item/snh-10g/
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Re: Lumin X1 Fiber Optic Network Discussions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jerbil
The brand new Lumin X1. Impressive even with ethernet connexion (Oxco router wow!), but I got noise issue between tracks when resampling. If not solve within 14 days, I go for the dCS Bartok
Envoyé de mon LG-H933 en utilisant Tapatalk