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For those that have (used) the SS-xxx amps, would you still recommend a Pre-Amp if you just have a one source digital setup? By foregoing a pre, one can go with a top notch source for the cost savings (pre and cables) and the Vitus attenuator ain’t no slouch either.
Many times you see a source (SCD) with Vitus Amp only unless there is an analog rig at most shows.
Would appreciate your thoughts.
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I'd love to read an answer too!
ALWAYS preamp! Digital volume controls generally suck, and so do often passive buffered analog preamps. I have had a Pass B1 buffer for too long, and I cannot believe how much of a difference the acquisition of an Octave HP 700 preamp in my digital-only system made. It was transformative (the less expensive Octave HP 300 SE preamp is also good, but not as good).
I have found some things are better going direct. But ultimately I found using a preamp or integrated more satisfying.
If your rolling with one source, and it’s a good one then I guess maybe your ok, and you can always add one later.
But I do feel the Pre is the heart of your system and helps shape the tone, something I would not live without.
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The Vitus volume control is resistor ladder based, not digital!
I’ve always preferred a preamp, either tube or great passive. Unless you have a top of the line MSB dac, I like what preamps add, a little air, slightly warmer sound depending, a little fuller and more musical sound. Direct is more detailed, more matter of fact, more exact but less musical to me.
Depends on the preamp. Mine delivers both the full tone and all the detail you want -- micro-detail of timbre, separation of instruments etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by joeinid
I also would not describe it as less exact; I perceive the fuller tone not as coloration, but as better preservation of the original signal, without "bleaching out". It is less about addition, but more about lack of subtraction.
This assessment is not just based on what I perceive as natural tone, but also on preservation of the tonal differences between recordings. If it were a coloration, it would overlay a sameness on everything.
Do not really see the benefit in this no-preamp thing. So far, I yet have to hear a system that sounds better without. For me it’s either an integrated or pre/ power combo.
My feeling is the argument is a clumsy effort used to justify overpriced source components, mainly by MSB. Have not heard that argument from other manufacturers.
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I would like to see where this thread goes.
I’m sure the MSB faction will soon chime in [emoji3]. And the MSB DACs are very good, but I’d still prefer a preamp in the chain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big B
But there are others who have done it before. The idea was originally introduced by Linn to add more value/ functionality to their DS line of DAC streamers. While good, they’re not quite on the level of dedicated preamps, as they present a compromise.
Also, I do have something similar in my system, as the Soulution 520 is a preamp, where an in-built phono stage utilizes the resources of the main preamp. But that is two preamps in one, not a source adding a preamp.
Of the Soulution 520 JV says it was the best solid state preamp he had heard, until the introduction of its larger sibling Soulution 725. But both are preamps, not DACs adding preamps.
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The preamp modules, an option in the REF DAC and standard in the Select DAC are as good as any solid state preamp I’ve heard. The VC in the discrete and premier is not quite up to the level of a really good solid state preamp, but still good, not unlike the VC on the DAVE.
What I hear with the full MSB preamp module (instead of adding a standard preamp in the chain) is a greater transparency to source.
That being said, if someone likes a little color, as I do, a tube preamp or different flavor solid state preamp by all means is a good way to go.
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If you have unlimited funds a preamp would probably add some enhancement. In my case I do not have unlimited funds. Previously I was using the aesthetix Calypso signature preamp and the Pandora dac with volume control. Non this setup i preferred the preamp in the system. When I got the opportunity to get the aesthetix Pandora Dac i had to sell the Aesthetix Pandora Dac and preamp in order to do so. In my opinion the Pandora eclipse going straight into the Audio Research Ref 75 was a significant improvement over the previous aesthetix combo. I have not tested every combination but my hypothesis of my lone point of reference would be that a standalone Dac with a well designed volume control wii yield a more engaging listening experience than a Dac and preamp combo whose combined cost is close to the cost of the higher end Dac. Given that the Dac is my only source I can’t see pursuing the aesthetix calyspso eclipse preamp, as I would look to possibly update the amp or speakers before movinng in this direction.
I went from a B1 to an Elekit Valve pre, way better now that I can drive the M2X to full power.
I have heard the VC of the Premier being bettered quite dramatically in a system by a Spectral DMA 30-SV preamp. I think it does not do justice to the quality of the DAC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
Welcome to the forum!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattkim96
I think it all comes to down the “ system “ approach regarding a pre amp.
Hopefully we will hear from the gentleman on this forum who owns the Select II and has purchased the new Msb monoblocks.
We can assume that he can afford to add any pre amp in the world he wants if that setup doesn’t suffice for him.
also , audio reviewer Jeff Fritz praised his Soulution 560 into his 711 amp.
So , at this level as msb and soulution ; most likely a pre amp isn’t necessary.
it simply comes down to synergy and of course the technology being implemented.
who wouldn’t want one less box ? Less cable ? More simple and with a higher resolution and more transparent sound ?
At their prices : coloration shouldn’t be accepted.
...and I don't accept the notion that a preamp is necessarily colored or less transparent and resolving. Perhaps the preamp modules in the MSB Reference and Select II DACs are the most transparent option for these DACs, but other DACs typically work less well direct than through high quality preamp.Quote:
Originally Posted by mdp632
Did you read what I wrote? The VC is just ok, like the DAVE VC. It’s not at the preamp module level or even close.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al M.
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Agreed, but no other manufacturer has put that kind of effort into a proper preamp integrated into a DAC either. Most do a simple volume attenuator like the Lampi, DAVE, MSB Discrete, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al M.
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Yes, I read what you wrote, it's "not quite up to the level of a really good solid state preamp, but still good".Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
In any case, I am just confirming that it's better with a high quality preamp.
Understood, that seems to be the consensus which I have no reason to doubt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
Agreed. I will say, the proper MSB Pre is excellent. Super transparent. As an example, listening to DK Live In Paris, you hear so many more details. Little subtle nuances. Done properly, with one box in the chain missing, you get a lot closer to the source. But most DAC’s VC should be called convenience volume controls at best.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al M.
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I might be slow here, but if you don’t have a preamp then aren’t you limited to only one source?
Makes you wonder why manufacturers waste resources on implementing such a VC in the first place, instead of making a fixed output, which would lower the price. Perhaps they feel pressured into just following what the competition does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
You raise an excellent question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al M.
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Been there done that many, many times trying a digital (Berkely, etc.) source with a "high quality" volume control. Been to Mike's and heard MSB Reference (I think--maybe Premier) direct. I just really like the added heft, drive and tone of a quality preamp.
Yes
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueFox
I feel it’s worthwhile to clarify how volume attenuation and preamp function are implemented/offered in new MSB family of DACs (Mike, please do correct me if I’m wrong). In Discrete and Premier it is done via what MSB simply calls “Volume Control”. In Reference, VC is standard, but you can upgrade to add a “preamp module”. On Select, such “preamp module” is the standard. And with this preamp module, you can accept more than one input (as shown in the pic below).
As for my Discrete, I simply by-pass the VC and use the preamp section of Diablo 300.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...79fb8cc031.jpg