https://youtu.be/8b1W7QgqhR8
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IMO, much better than the all-too-usual formulaic set-up guides. :tup:
Thanks Mike. I may not need the guide so much for my monitors (I go by where they energize my room the best), but it gave me ideas for positioning the subs in my room.
Using this video as a guide with the recommended "1/5th dimensions", I moved my loudspeakers 5 more inches from the front wall recently to make them 35" from front baffle to the wall behind them. Made a substantial difference. The system always sounded good but just moving the speakers the additional 5" further away from the wall made the image snap into focus with a better center image. Going to play with my seating position next and make sure it meets the 1/5 dimension from the rear wall media shelving.
Thanks for linking this video Mike.
Cool!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeCh
The nice thing is that there is still a significant level of improvement beyond this better-than-average basic set-up guide. :)
BTW - Seating position always comes first when-or-if you want to move beyond the level of musical involvement available from this basic guide.
Thanks Jim. Yep, going to play with the seating position next. I started with the speaker positions as they are easiest to move. Now that I've got that improvement happening, I'll move the seating position which consists of an 8x10 rug, the 500lb record storage/coffee table/trunk that sits in front of my couch and the couch itself. Once there, evaluate and see if I need to do more....like get your book and follow more guidance.
Thanks much Mike.
Does most of you have the speaker placed somewhat in the 1/5th range, if that's possible in the room ?
You mean at 1/5th of the room length?Quote:
Originally Posted by Devg
I have mine (driver plane) 7 feet from the front wall, in a 24 feet long room.
It’s different from the Cardas room guide of .276 and .447 ratio.
http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_rectangular_room.php
if you religiously follow Cardas method, it will put the speakers either right in the middle of the room (.447) or they are too close to each other (thus narrowing down the soundstage). I have never found it effective in my room.
yes, I meant 1/5th of the room length from the front wall and 1/5th of the width from the side wall as stated in the video. Just trying to see how close is this approximation in different setups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al M.
Mine are 1/5th using the front baffle and center of the drivers as starting point. Have been that way since the 3A Signature days. That method doesn't quite work though with the OB Spatials.
Jack,
have you tried moving the speakers from the 1/5th position to see if you benefit form it ? if not, worth the try.
Dev
I have, especially with the three Vandersteen models as they were finicky especially the Treo. Also with the Golden Ear, the Odyssey Lorelei, the big Offrande monitor, the Meadowlark Shearwater and the Nola's. In the the end they all ended up pretty close to the 1/5th position after moving them around. The smaller monitors like the Nola Boxer, Soliloquy, Reynaud Trente and the Green Mountains were all different. In the Main system room due to it's dimensions that just seems to work out the best in the end. The Spatial's were only in that room a couple of days to test them out before putting them in a spare BR for a week of break-in so I just put them in front and to the inside of the KO's so don't know how they would have ended up as they never went back in that room again.
is your listening position also around 1/5th from the back wall ?
For now it's a little short of 1/5th but when the new rack gets here I may try moving it around a bit and see what the effect is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al M.
If I move the speakers that far back,Quote:
Originally Posted by Devg
a) the speakers do not fully energize my room, robbing the music of 'live feel' -- at the current position they do that splendidly
b) the soundstage gets rather shallow
Every situation, room and acoustic is different. There cannot be any dogmatic hard rules, just general guidelines that can serve as a starting point from which all options are probed.
Dev,Quote:
Originally Posted by Devg
My room dimensions are 17' W x 14'-8" D x 7' T. The gear and speakers are set up along the long wall but are not centered on that wall.
Yes, my loudspeakers were 5" closer to the front wall (30" overall from front baffle to wall) before I moved them the additional 5" into the room (now 35" overall from front baffle to wall) to meet the 1/5th depth dimension. Just moving that 5" really helped solidify the center image.
I'm not quite sure how to calculate the 1/5th dimensions/ratio for width in my room as the system and speakers sit off center on the long wall. The left speaker sits 33" from left wall to center of drivers and the speakers themselves are 6'-10" between left and right speaker driver centers. This puts the right hand speaker driver centers 7'-5" from the right wall. Currently, it sounds great so not certain if I'll move them around (left and right) right now. Instead, I'll play with my listening position as it will need to move back about 12" to meet the 1/5th rule from the rear wall and is easy enough to test/check.
Hi Mike,Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeCh
glad that you are enjoying the new position. I think most of us understand the importance of speaker position relative to a room. I was trying to statistically see how close are folks for a particular rule - if every speaker is positioned differently and far away from a particular rule, what's the point of having a rule then ? Some will say its just a starting point but there are N number of rule and hence possibly N number of starting points. For example, mine are 6'.3" from the front wall in a room length of 19' - a far away numbers from the 1/5th rule, whereas yours and Jack's are going well with this particular rule.
Some says to find the listening position first but my speaker manufacturer suggest to find the speaker position first and then find the listening position. All setups I have heard with my speaker and done by the manufacturer sounds terrific to my ears.
I guess it all boils down to a combination of room, speaker and electronics used and there is no one particular rule to start with and experiment is the key. At one point I probably have experimented with all the "rules" that I could find on the internet (1/5th, 1/3rd, Cardas, WASP, etc) and other expert suggestions/books - I find the Nordost setup guideline/disc to be very effective.
Sometime changing gears can also lead to re-position of the placement. I am not done yet and still experiment when time allows....
Different strokes...Quote:
Originally Posted by Devg
In over 800 successful room/system tuning sessions, including at shows (fortunately winning best-sound-of-show awards at 5 out of the 7 shows we did, and with speakers that had been ignored or disliked), at dealers and manufacturers, and of course with consumer clients, I have always found it necessary to first establish the Anchor Position for tuning the speakers to the room. That has always meant finding the best listening position first, because that is where the bass is smoothest (working with the room rather than against it). It makes a powerful difference in musical dynamics (no boom at some frequencies, no missing notes at others), with dynamics being one of the major aspects of system playback that can pluck the heartstrings (musical engagement).
I have NEVER found any system that was set-up with ANY guide or technique - no matter how famous - that couldn't be greatly improved upon in a matter of a few hours, sometimes less. FWIW - Over the years, I've gone behind ALL of the famous guides and set-up techniques espoused by the "experts" as well as speaker manufacturers - at the request of frustrated clients - with the client always amazed at how much more alive and musically engaging their system became, without buying another component. In fact, AFAIK, it's never failed.
Please understand - after looking at the above, even I think it sounds like an ad. However, it's not supposed to be about me - and it's not rocket science - anyone can do it with a bit of insight.
One more question/comment - how can all of the guides/techniques be so different and yet all are supposed to be best? Just asking...
IMO/IME of course.
The "middle of the room" would only occur in a square room. In most rooms (say 14' by 20') they will be about a third of the way into the room. As far as distance between the speakers, that doesn't matter so much in the super-near field listening position recommended by Cardas, but I think most us are happier with the listening position Jim recommends, and the Cardas method may not be compatible with that,Quote:
Originally Posted by Devg
Here’s my free million dollar idea - a well built, fine material listening chair on a track allowing you to slide forward or back 4”- 6”
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Actually my Lazy Boy reclines moving my ear position that much!
That’s a tweak, just not sure about the reclining part...essentially I am talking like a power seat, kinda geeky but done rightQuote:
Originally Posted by Dguitarnut
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Honestly I'm always struggling with finding the correct position for my speakers. My living room is about 410*620cm. According to the manufacturer I can place my speakers fairly close to the side walls and at least 2.5 meters apart.
That’s the issue. These are just manufacturer guidelines. People who think some cleverly named speaker setup program is the panacea for setup in all rooms, regardless of size, shape and layout, not to mention accompanying items in that room, wall types and more are fooling themselves. One doesn’t even mention necessary measurement and location of the seating position. The starting point. Geesh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordante
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My two cents on the subject. Manufacturers suggestions are just that a suggestion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
This Industry has big issues with facts. Its easy to see from many pictures of systems that they really cant sound there best just by the lovely symmetrical placement of all the gear lined up like soldiers along the back wall.
No one wants to tell you that speakers should not be near walls and corners or in fact that you actually need to hook them to wires LOL see all advertising pictures of speakers without them!!!
Clients always ask me the same questions about how far from the walls and the answer is never a simple 32 inches or 40 inches. Set up in a room takes time and listening. The more you invest the more you get out. Rule ! - DO NOT BE AFRAID TO MOVE THE SPEAKERS. You can start and mark where you had them if your afraid.
Take a quality recording with a good constant bass track, move the speakers an inch or two at at time to start and then as you get closer move them smaller distances until they are in the right place. I know this is a simplification and I have found people would rather buy all kinds of expensive qizmo's but never want to pay someone , if they can't to set their system up.
I have never used Jim Smith's services but I have heard many highly complimentary statements about his work. I have also found that when I was a dealer that most customers think they know how and that they don't need expertise particularly if they have to pay someone.
In all my years in Audio I have to admit that I have heard very few systems that were set up to the max. Sad but true and I have been invited to some very high end systems that were just dreadful.This includes many manufacturers showrooms, dealers showrooms, consumers and of course high end shows. Shows are for the most part just to give you an idea of the product since its a hotel and there is limited time to get the system set up in a marginal space. IMHO the positioning of the speakers is the most important item in getting GREAT sound no matter the price range.
#MOVETHEM
BINGO! And move the seating position - even more critical or as critical at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by BendingWave
Trust me, I’ve gone into clients rooms that have apparently had their speaker manufacturer sales rep trained in some house program and it was terrible.
Thankfully I’ve learned a lot from Jim and can apply some of his wonderful techniques in setup.
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Yes of course Mike that's correct. I see sitting positions that are against or very near the wall and people using chairs made for sleeping with huge high head rest areas that also influence what our ears receive. All of these issues will change and affect the sound you hear.
Do not be afraid to move it move it!!!
The other thing to consider is acoustics. Over the years I must have spent far more time and energy trying to improve the acoustics of my room than auditioning and choosing components. The result, while still far from perfect, seems to be quite good, given not just my own satisfaction, but the feedback from others. But of course it is far sexier choosing the next shiny component than toiling with positioning/choosing of carpets, tube traps, diffusing or absorbing panels, or installing window plugs -- and precisely dialing in your speakers. But the latter things may be much more efficient in giving you great sound than that new shiny component. Not that the latter may not be desirable, once you have also worked on those other issues :)Quote:
Originally Posted by BendingWave
Some really good advice here. New speakers have landed with me Harbeth P3ESR and I have been moving them like never before. Been reading up on Jim Smith too, nothing beats experience in this area. It’s been a real education how small movements can change things. This includes toe in for image vs treble energy. It’s been great fun and I have increased the systems performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by BendingWave
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Smith
I love the question Jim. I hate formulas like the equilateral triangle and specific toe-in instructions used universally. Every speaker is different just like every room is different. Rear port, front port, needs reinforcement, needs space... so many different design philosophies.
I went into a client's house one time and he had been telling me how bad his room was. He even called GIK to get help and they gave up on it given the dimensions, layout, and varying wall constructions. After spending 2 hours moving his stuff around every which way, I told him he should give up and buy headphones (jokingly of course, but some sincerity there). It was the most dumbfounding experience I have ever had and I refuse to set foot in that room again. His room was the equivalent of the Audiophile's Bermuda Triangle.
Huuummm... i have my doubts here. I know that speaker position is important, but, if the system is "right", i think is more a matter of taste. Let me try to explain. I prefer them pointed directly to me, but i could live with them in a parallel position. More focus versus a bigger soundstage. I also prefer them to be far away from each other, but with them close there´s no danger of any hole in the sound.
Always a tradeoff. I think that´s why this is a never ending talk
To me, the most important thing about a speaker (i´m talking about dynamic speakers), the real thing that can real damage and compromise all the performance of a system, more than the position, is the way they contact to the floor. In my opinion you must solve two problems; dissipate the speaker vibrations to the floor, and prevent the vibrations of the floor from going to the loudspeaker. This point is so important that can affect the sound in a dangerous way, no matter the quality of the gear behind or the acoustics of the room. Do all the experiences you want and you will see…
Okay, I think I’ve removed most if not all the offensive posts.
Please keep the negative, at best and blatantly obviously mean at worst, comments out of public view.
If anyone has anything bad to say (especially about someone else), STOP, do not do it. I don’t like it and others, members or casual observers, don’t like to see it either.
Well done.Quote:
Originally Posted by joeinid