Diffuse vs Dampen/eliminated

I recently changed some things in my listening room, removed two large wood cabinets that housed my gear and stored stuff and replaced them with a more traditional equipment rack; I got rid of a large DLP TV that was between my speakers, I did cover the screen when listening to 2-channel. I'm leaning toward a projector and the screen would be hidden when not in use.

So now I have a bit of reflection, like the sound of a room without a lot of furnishing, it's not bad but I can hear it when standing and talking or clap. I am firmly convinced our room is a very important part of our system performance. So I'm beginning to look into what to do to improve my room acoustics.

My room is heavy carpet over concrete, drywall, rectangle in shape with the system on one short wall. The rear of the room is not completely open but does have a larger than normal opening, no door. Odd measurements, about 14 x 22 or so.

I have been in treated rooms with panels to eliminate reflections but to my ears I just didn't care for the overall sound of the room, I can't explain it, though the audio sounded great it just didn't seem natural to have the room so dead. At an audio show I heard MBL using diffusers and I really think that's the way I want to go. The system sounded great but the room allowed for harmonics. I think "harmonics" is proper. The music seemed to still be alive and natural opposed to being heard and going nowhere.

So any experience or advice in treating my room would be appreciated, dampen but slightly? diffusing is the way to go? mix things up? etc.

Also, any brands of treatments? I've looked at Auralex who offers products that does both stop or diffuse.

GIK Acoustics Alpha Series Diffusor / Absorber Panels

http://www.gikacoustics.com/product-.../alpha-series/

Acoustic Geometry also makes some nice panels 2' x 2' and their "curves" are very useful for tuning. My 2 cents FWIW.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

I recently changed some things in my listening room, removed two large wood cabinets that housed my gear and stored stuff and replaced them with a more traditional equipment rack; I got rid of a large DLP TV that was between my speakers, I did cover the screen when listening to 2-channel. I'm leaning toward a projector and the screen would be hidden when not in use.

So now I have a bit of reflection, like the sound of a room without a lot of furnishing, it's not bad but I can hear it when standing and talking or clap. I am firmly convinced our room is a very important part of our system performance. So I'm beginning to look into what to do to improve my room acoustics.

My room is heavy carpet over concrete, drywall, rectangle in shape with the system on one short wall. The rear of the room is not completely open but does have a larger than normal opening, no door. Odd measurements, about 14 x 22 or so.

I have been in treated rooms with panels to eliminate reflections but to my ears I just didn't care for the overall sound of the room, I can't explain it, though the audio sounded great it just didn't seem natural to have the room so dead. At an audio show I heard MBL using diffusers and I really think that's the way I want to go. The system sounded great but the room allowed for harmonics. I think "harmonics" is proper. The music seemed to still be alive and natural opposed to being heard and going nowhere.

So any experience or advice in treating my room would be appreciated, dampen but slightly? diffusing is the way to go? mix things up? etc.

Also, any brands of treatments? I've looked at Auralex who offers products that does both stop or diffuse.

---

Take a look at Vicoustics. http://www.vicoustic.com/ That's what I use (and carry). Very happy with the results.

http://www.vicoustic.com/product/cinema-round-premium

Mike, your not listed on their website yet as to "where to buy" in the U.S.
Might want to get them to update their site.
Looks like nice products

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jadedavid

Mike, your not listed on their website yet as to "where to buy" in the U.S.
Might want to get them to update their site.
Looks like nice products

---

Thanks. I will let them know. This is not uncommon (unfortunately).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

[...]
I have been in treated rooms with panels to eliminate reflections but to my ears I just didn't care for the overall sound of the room, I can't explain it, though the audio sounded great it just didn't seem natural to have the room so dead. At an audio show I heard MBL using diffusers and I really think that's the way I want to go. The system sounded great but the room allowed for harmonics. I think "harmonics" is proper. The music seemed to still be alive and natural opposed to being heard and going nowhere.

So any experience or advice in treating my room would be appreciated, dampen but slightly? diffusing is the way to go? mix things up? etc.

Also, any brands of treatments? I've looked at Auralex who offers products that does both stop or diffuse.

---

Yes, I know what you mean, over damped rooms don't sound natural. For this reason I am a strong advocate for the use of diffusion, particularly at early reflection points. The Auralex stuff is dubious and I'd recommend you look at more credible suppliers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kiwi_1282001

Yes, I know what you mean, over damped rooms don't sound natural. For this reason I am a strong advocate for the use of diffusion, particularly at early reflection points. The Auralex stuff is dubious and I'd recommend you look at more credible suppliers.

---

Kiwi,

We have somewhat different viewpoints on this subject.

Hope you don't mind if I interject a comment & question...

Everyone knows that the frequency response of ANY speaker - when measured well off-axis (such as the angle one might encounter at an early reflection point) - is going to be unpleasant. In fact, it is very colored, in a negative manner.

So why would you want to disperse or diffuse a badly colored sound anywhere into your room?

Best,

Jim

Treating your room can make a big difference to the sound , both positive and negative, knowledge of which direction to go and what type of treatment is necessary can save you alot in time and money, unless of course, the experimentation and journey is part of the plan ... :)


Many a room have been improved by yanking out unnecessary treatments ....


Regards...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jim Smith

Kiwi,

We have somewhat different viewpoints on this subject.

Hope you don't mind if I interject a comment & question...

Everyone knows that the frequency response of ANY speaker - when measured well off-axis (such as the angle one might encounter at an early reflection point) - is going to be unpleasant. In fact, it is very colored, in a negative manner.

So why would you want to disperse or diffuse a badly colored sound anywhere into your room?

Best,

Jim

---

Hello Jim,


Because reflected waves return at different phase angles and add to the ambient quality of the sound , distance from the wall and time of arrival is best controlled by diffusing than absorbing. Absorption can lead to that dreaded "dead " sound that some mentioned, this is not to say absorption is not necessary, there are many situations where absorption is beneficial , especially with bright speakers, speakers which over power the room and poor RT60 times ...


Regards ...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by a.wayne

Hello Jim,


Because reflected waves return at different phase angles and add to the ambient quality of the sound , distance from the wall and time of arrival is best controlled by diffusing than absorbing. Absorption can lead to that dreaded "dead " sound that some mentioned, this is not to say absorption is not necessary, there are many situations where absorption is beneficial , especially with bright speakers, speakers which over power the room and poor RT60 times ...


Regards ...

---

Thanks!

I guess we have to agree to disagree.

FWIW - My viewpoint comes from practical experience, having successfully voiced many hundreds of systems.

Of course, I do think that there is art & science to be applied that are often unknown - or worse - ignored re absorption... :sigh:

I just wanted to say thanks to all who replied. Too lazy to click everyone, LOL

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jim Smith

Kiwi,

We have somewhat different viewpoints on this subject.

Hope you don't mind if I interject a comment & question...

Everyone knows that the frequency response of ANY speaker - when measured well off-axis (such as the angle one might encounter at an early reflection point) - is going to be unpleasant. In fact, it is very colored, in a negative manner.

So why would you want to disperse or diffuse a badly colored sound anywhere into your room?

Best,

Jim

---

Hello Jim,

a.wayne has stepped in to reply before I could and he is on the money – it is about the ambient quality (i.e. spreading the sound energy without removing ambience) and naturalness of sound and this is backed up by published research, some loudspeaker manufacturer recommendations and years of my own experience; though I happily acknowledge differing opinions exist and your interjection is welcome.

Our ears are completely remarkable, together with the brain they are used to process both direct and indirect (reflected) sounds on a daily basis and this processing has become second nature to us to the extent that if you completely remove reflected sound the result immediately seems unnatural.


Best,

Ralph

I thought I'd come back and share where I was at.

A sampling of Auralex was in a local music store, upon inspection I ruled it out.

I did visit vicoustics, I can't remember why nothing happened, maybe I couldn't find my way.

I spoke to a gik rep, the product he recommended would have taken to much area in my room. One of those guys who had you squirming in your chair because you realize how much you have wrong in the room you can't, or, don't want to change, LOL

I was leaning hard toward Acoustic Geometry's Curved Diffusers and maybe something for the corners. I liked the theory behind the diffusers, which are really a combo of bass trap & diffuser. A big concern was no dealer in my entire state and a 50% restock fee. I certainly planned to keep them if they work, but, what if

A friend brought over a few of the DIY Corning 703 panels that are already made up. They are about 2x4 ft. and around 4 inch thick. He sat one on each wall around the 1st reflection and two on the wall behind the speakers and facing me. Those two worked there better than in the corners. Absorption is not the way I thought I wanted to go but with just those 4 to play with the result was amazing. At first the room absent of reflection seemed to feel a bit closed in. After hearing what I'd call dramatic improvement in familiar music I think I can live with it.

You all know already, but I wish I had played with actual room treatments much earlier, better vocal intelligibility, improved bass, incredible revelation of fine details, nice. The downside, low WAF. But, she designated my listening area to the lower level for some reason, LOL

I wonder what people did for treatments before the internet, you sure can't walk in off the street to get any, or help. My friend has these extra and willing to part with them, so being able to try them first, and, the great results, it looks like the way I will be going.

Take a look at ATS Acoustics. They are located just south of Chicago in Piper City.

That's great that you get to hear the results of the product before buying. Taming the first reflection point is quite often very rewarding. I tried absorption panels there and like you found a more relaxed "quieter" sound. Initially I enjoyed the change but as time went on I felt the music lacked drive or "boogie factor". A friend turned me on to the Acoustic Geometry "curves". Placing them at the first reflection point brought back that "toe tapping" feeling to the music. Furthermore, based upon their half circle construction, slight placement changes result in changing width and depth of the soundstage. Perhaps as an experiment you could take some large pieces of cardboard and slightly roll them into a half circle shape approximating the AG Curves. This would give you an idea of the results of the radial diffusion from the curves.
Good luck and have fun with it.

It would be great to have been able to try the curve diffusers. From what I've read about them I doubt I could imitate one. There's an internal membrane that traps bass, then at a certain point from there up is diffused. In my opinion their ridiculous restocking policy is probably a stumbling block to more business. But maybe the company had a bad experience that caused it.

I've also read, "you can't have too much bass trapping", however, I think I have to be careful with the absorption regarding mids/highs. With absorption it seems the 703 Corning is like the benchmark.

I hope I don't get restless with the effect. The sound is some more relaxed but actually eliminating the reflections allowing me to hear more into the recording gives a better sense of melody.

I will still remember Acoustic geometry and folks like that have chimed in here have been converted to diffusion for a reason. Plus, some of the companies at shows use the diffusers to help in their room. For now, it's a matter of circumstance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jadedavid

That's great that you get to hear the results of the product before buying. Taming the first reflection point is quite often very rewarding. I tried absorption panels there and like you found a more relaxed "quieter" sound. Initially I enjoyed the change but as time went on I felt the music lacked drive or "boogie factor". A friend turned me on to the Acoustic Geometry "curves". Placing them at the first reflection point brought back that "toe tapping" feeling to the music. Furthermore, based upon their half circle construction, slight placement changes result in changing width and depth of the soundstage. Perhaps as an experiment you could take some large pieces of cardboard and slightly roll them into a half circle shape approximating the AG Curves. This would give you an idea of the results of the radial diffusion from the curves.
Good luck and have fun with it.

---

When using the curves at the first reflection point the Bass membrane is of little to no effect as it is the 180 degree reflection pattern that will affect the sound most thus the quick DIY experiment with the cardboard. When using the Curves in the corners or by the room boundaries is where the bass traps will have a greater positive effect.FWIW.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

I thought I'd come back and share where I was at.

A sampling of Auralex was in a local music store, upon inspection I ruled it out.

I did visit vicoustics, I can't remember why nothing happened, maybe I couldn't find my way.

I spoke to a gik rep, the product he recommended would have taken to much area in my room. One of those guys who had you squirming in your chair because you realize how much you have wrong in the room you can't, or, don't want to change, LOL

I was leaning hard toward Acoustic Geometry's Curved Diffusers and maybe something for the corners. I liked the theory behind the diffusers, which are really a combo of bass trap & diffuser. A big concern was no dealer in my entire state and a 50% restock fee. I certainly planned to keep them if they work, but, what if

A friend brought over a few of the DIY Corning 703 panels that are already made up. They are about 2x4 ft. and around 4 inch thick. He sat one on each wall around the 1st reflection and two on the wall behind the speakers and facing me. Those two worked there better than in the corners. Absorption is not the way I thought I wanted to go but with just those 4 to play with the result was amazing. At first the room absent of reflection seemed to feel a bit closed in. After hearing what I'd call dramatic improvement in familiar music I think I can live with it.

You all know already, but I wish I had played with actual room treatments much earlier, better vocal intelligibility, improved bass, incredible revelation of fine details, nice. The downside, low WAF. But, she designated my listening area to the lower level for some reason, LOL

I wonder what people did for treatments before the internet, you sure can't walk in off the street to get any, or help. My friend has these extra and willing to part with them, so being able to try them first, and, the great results, it looks like the way I will be going.

---

Its great to read you are experimenting and drawing your own conclusions.

I also found absorption at first sidewall reflection points to improve sound quality vs. Bare wall reflections. However, once i tried well engineered diffusors in the same position there was absolutely no going back.

Deleted. Double post.

Balanced between diffusion and dumping is very important, but we must not forget to room dimension as well. Square is not good, better is rectangle, wall distanc shell not be in multiplications.

Which direction is best for the long axis of a rectangular room?

What are the dimensions of the room? That could go either way depending.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hikerneil

Which direction is best for the long axis of a rectangular room?

---

Quote:

---

Martin Logan Montis Speakers

---

https://www.linkwitzlab.com/rooms.htm
https://www.audioshark.org/attachmen...id=27513&stc=1

Well, you can try placing on the long wall, but the short wall will allow you to sit further back, and that's what you want with M/L's (Dipoles), check your owner's manual if in doubt.

I mean my M/L Aerius speakers are 3-feet from the front wall per the owner's manual, that alone is going to shrink one dimension of the room.

I was unable to find the exact diagram that illustrates seating position "sweetspot" comparative of conventional dynamic loudspeakers and dipole panel speakers.

However as you all know the panel speakers in general are regarded to have a smaller sweet spot and are more narrowly directive. That is to say the sound projects out in straight planes and does not expand out in a wide rating pattern (polar dispersion) as a "point source".

I am getting notices that this thread is being active, but cannot read the new posts.

I have done a lot of acoustic experiments, listening and research in the past couple of months since my last post.

I have changed my mind on a few things to say the least, always learning to be kind to myself.

Link to DIY projects and room:

kach22i's system | What's Best Audio and Video Forum. The Best High End Audio Forum on the planet!

And regarding my Martin Logan dispersion comment, sort of figured out the nuances of that topic too.

The big lie - Dispersion Horizontal: 30 Degrees | What's Best Audio and Video Forum. The Best High End Audio Forum on the planet!

I am getting notices that this thread is being active, but cannot read the new posts.

I have done a lot of acoustic experiments, listening and research in the past couple of months since my last post.

I have changed my mind on a few things to say the least, always learning to be kind to myself.

Link to DIY projects and room:

kach22i's system | What's Best Audio and Video Forum. The Best High End Audio Forum on the planet!

And regarding my Martin Logan dispersion comment, sort of figured out the nuances of that topic too.

The big lie - Dispersion Horizontal: 30 Degrees | What's Best Audio and Video Forum. The Best High End Audio Forum on the planet!