Printable View
Replacing its dated Wolfson architecture Linn finally added a DAC chip to the Klimax Streamer/ DAC, which can actually play back DSD.
From a Linn perspective this is a huge change of heart, as they have been a very strong proponent of the PCM camp so far.
https://www.linn.co.uk/technology/katalyst
Haha. That's funny. They had such an anti-DSD campaign for so long.
Maybe they should have skipped DSD, saved face and gone straight to MQA.
Lumin has some significant competition now, but the last time I checked, the Linn app was no where near as polished as the Lumin app.
If you can't beat 'em....[emoji6]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Better late than never. If they do DSD like they do PSM could be interesting.
Have to agree with Mike that the change of heart is almost funny.
But you do have a good point as well: if they indeed do DSD or MQA for that matter) as well as they do PCM it could freshen up the market a bit. I used to own a Klimax and must admit you can't say anything else, than that it was very good. But at that time Lumin was not around yet...
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
On the link that you have included you can see they still don't support DSD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuoppis
http://s16.postimg.org/yrrkh2wxx/Sch...m_18_46_17.jpg
If you can't beat 'em...., use them! That is what I do for years now for my Linn and Auralic mini. I agree the Lumin app is a lot better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
http://s10.postimg.org/oh0nundtl/Lum...ture_Aries.jpg
I realize Linn has no traction in the US. For what I understand due to a poor distributor. But here in Europe Linn is the most sold and acknowledged hi-end streamer brand. And according the high-end audio magazines as well as users in Europe on a higher level SQ compared to Lumin. True or not, Linn brought this new Katalyst to improve sound quality and as early users say it is again a big step up.
They do, you have just to dig a bit deeper into the specs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glareskin
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Thanks. Can you send the link because I couldn't find it and also the Linn community seems to think it cannot support DSD. http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=34384Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuoppis
I digged into the specs and it came up, and of course the DAC chip supports it. So I think they would be plain stupid to disable it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glareskin
But frankly speaking, I don't care. I switched to Meitner some years ago due to lack of DSD support of the Klimax. So figure it out, I am not going to engage in an irrelevant battle here if someone is not able to read product specs. I do not mean to be rude, but I simply do not care enough to argue about this.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Wow! I don't understand where this reaction is coming from. I am just asking your source as I haven't found it and it was you who started this thread. I am not looking for a battle, just facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuoppis
https://image.spreadshirtmedia.com/i...-sign-hand.png
As said, the intention is not to be rude. Just dig into it and find out for yourself. Happy hunting.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
The Linn is very musical. But a few years ago, Jock (The Professor) and others compared the top of the line Linn (Klimax??) to the Lumin and the Lumin was preferred.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glareskin
Will be interesting to see if Linn does support DSD, MQA, etc. in the future.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I guess they will have a tough stand, as Lumin is quite up-to-date with the latest technical developments.
And as you mentioned Mike, the Lumin app appears to be state-of the-art.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Glareskin.......I dug a little deeper for you. The new Linn Klimax DS and DSM uses the latest AKM4497 DAC that is seen in the photo below. The data sheet on the AKM AK4497 DAC is here: https://www.akm.com/akm/en/file/datasheet/AK4497EQ.pdf . It states the AK4497 accepts up to 768kHz PCM data and 22.4MHz DSD data. Linn does not show in the spec sheet for the Klimax components that it can play DSD. https://www.linn.co.uk/hifi-separate...mparison-table
https://c4.staticflickr.com/9/8016/2...686a519d_b.jpg
Plus a much lower price point here in the U.S. and many model options available from $2k to $10k. And Lumin is participating here on AS daily and always available, answering questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuoppis
Didn't the old man who founded Linn retire and now the kid is running the show? I could be wrong...
As for AKM, isn't that the same chip used in the new Esoteric network music player? I think that's competitively priced too.
Linn had the market. They were the pioneers. But at least here in the U.S., they buried their heads in the sand and told consumers they were wrong to want DSD. Gave us all kinds of charts and graphs and reasons to tell consumers they were wrong. That didn't work out so well.
I would love to see Linn up their game here. That may push Lumin too! Good for consumers.
AKM...interesting choice. Good. But interesting.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Mike.......Just for general information in response to your commement above, the new Esoteric K-01X and K-03X CD/SACD/DAC players use the AKM AK4495S DAC. The newest, and yet to be released, Esoteric Grandioso K1 SACD/CD/DAC player uses the AKM AK4497 DAC.
What does the Esoteric D-02x use? Any idea?Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-D
If I'm not mistaken from what I read its the same chip used in the Brytson BDA-3,the AK4490Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
Hmmmm. Is that fairly old? How does it compare to the 4495S and 4497 Dan mentioned? What's in the Esoteric Network Music Player?Quote:
Originally Posted by CPP
Well, to present the "other side" of the story, I actually prefer the Linn app (Kazoo) to the Lumin app. I've them all installed on our iPads, and most people that come here end up preferring Kazoo too. Plus, there's Kazoo on my Mac, so I don't even need to reach out for the iPad... Since Linn created the actual protocol Lumin runs on (and made it open), there would be no Lumin if it weren't for Linn :)
Second, the whole DSD thing was problematic, yes. I'm still annoying when I pick an album from my collection, and the Linn simply won't play, because it's DSD. But from what I understand, dealing with DSD wouldn't allow Linn to provide the compreensive DSP / room optimization that its streamers provide:
https://www.linn.co.uk/technology/space-optimisation
It's just not feasible to apply DSP to DSD streams in real-time (not today, let alone many years ago when Linn started this whole streaming thing), so they went with what was possible, PCM.
I will know more about these new products in about a week. I'm pretty curious to see if they really did DSD, and if they did, how are they coping with the DSP stuff...
One thing I agree with Mike, though: technological progress should turn better (and cheaper) products for us! And besides, choice is good :)
cheers,
alex
Mike if your talking about the N05, The same chip. http://www.esoteric-usa.com/Products/dacs/N-05.php As far as old, it was introduced late 2014.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
interesting schematic of the D-02x showing the 4490's
http://www.audioshark.org/attachment...id=17273&stc=1
Thanks Chris. So the N-05 uses 4490?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
10-4 oh birthday boyQuote:
Originally Posted by Mike
http://ludwig-audio.blogspot.com/201...1_archive.html
LOL.Quote:
Originally Posted by CPP
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hegel, Questyle and Astell & Kern are also using AK chips.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
It is rather astonishing that Linn appears to have intentionally crippled the AK4497 DAC's capability to decode DSD in their newest Klimax components. That AKM AK4497 DAC is the same one that's in the new Esoteric Grandioso K1, their premier single box SACD/CD/DAC to be released next month in Japan. The AK4497 is capable of 768kHz PCM data and 22.4MHz DSD. Other than maintaining the company mantra of the uselessness of DSD, I don't understand why Linn would stifle sales opportunities against their competitors with such a narrow minded design philosophy, especially when their chosen DAC delivers state of the art DSD capabilities.
It will be really interesting to see if that indeed is the case, it would be bamboozling. Especially as there now also are Linn DSD downloads (only a few though). And a +15K DAC without support for all possible formats might be a hard sell in the future. But as it is a FPGA concept any truth might also be temporary.
As the entire Katalyst announcement is fairly recent (Sep 16), there is not too much data available yet on how the AK4497 has been implemented in the Klimax range. Let's wait and see.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Dan / Kuoppis,
As I said, the apparent lack of DSD might have something to do with the DSP functionality that's built-in every Linn streamer. You can't do DSP in pure DSD at this point, so maybe they just opted not to offer it, prefering the benefits of DSP instead.
But as I said, I'll know more soon!
BTW I've just heard from Linn, and one good bit of news here: existing Klimax DS and DSM owners will be able upgrade to the new DAC platform, for a fraction of the price of a new unit!
Also a few years ago two groups of audio enthusiasts in Asia and Europe compared the Lumin (the first on the market, I think it is still the top model?) with the Linn line-up from that time and concluded that the Lumin was on Majik level. A later test in Audio magazine more or less confirmed this. I have copied a link to the Asian comparison because that was in English. http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthre...ighlight=luminQuote:
Originally Posted by Mike
Since then Linn introduced two new generations and the latest one with the Katalyst PCB gets very good feedback. Here is a review in the British magazine HiFi+.
http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/lin...-music-player/
Also Audio rated the Klimax DS/3 (with Katalyst) as the best they ever heard. I realize these are just opinions but I also believe they cannot all be wrong or biased. I think the audio lovers on this forum that always pick the very finest gear should at least give it a try one day. And it does work fine with the great Lumin app :-)
https://s13.postimg.org/m94yj9dcn/Au...nking_2016.jpg
Will the new product(s) support DSD?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No. At least not for now. According to the chip specialists in this thread the chip set is capable of DSD but Linn doesn't offer it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
Thanks Dan! But as you concluded: Linn doesn't offer it....Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-D
Well, there are two types of companies, those who change and those who disappear.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I've just attended the launch event for the new Linn Klimax w/ the new (4th generation) DAC technology, called Katalyst.
Indeed, DSD is not supported for the reason I outlined before: it would simply negate a lot of the benefits that Linn offers in its products, and what makes them different from a regular streamer. So, no volume control, no room optimization, among other things.
Their technical director was available, and he said they could do DSD, it's all a question of priorities. At the moment, they're hard at work getting the whole Linn lineup ready for multichannel/surround, so that's taking a lot of resources.
At the event, I could also compare the previous Klimax DS (and DSM) to the new models, and the difference isn't subtle. The new stuff attains levels of naturalness that are very impressive, for an all-in-one-box solution.
Those of us who have been in the hobby for a long time will remember that Linn steadfastedly refused to acknowledge that digital even existed. It was their LP12 or the highway. They were holdouts for such a long time that it came as a bit of a shock when they finally conceded the blindingly obvious and released a CD player.
They really don't deserve their success. If there are forward thinking British companies that deserve to be successful, that would be Meridian, Wilson Benesch, or Chord. Linn can continue to live in denial and go into receivership for all I care.
Update: Talking to a Linn dealer in the region he suggested that Linn will save the DSD option for a next "upgrade".
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Yes, I talked to Linn's technical director, and they just have too much on their plate right now.
I'm just trying to get them to support DSD>PCM on-the-fly conversion in their Linn Kazoo server. That'll help a lot for folks who won't want to mess with MinimServer and ffmpeg etc.
In my server, I'm running a separate instance of MinimServer for the DSD files, and doing the DSD>PCM on-the-fly thing, while I keep a main instance with all the files playing straight through...
Why not just use MinimServer for both DSD and PCM files? Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by asiufy
Yes, this is the Linn philosophy. The problem is just that DSD sounds better than PCM.Quote:
Originally Posted by asiufy
Linn' logic is of course that then there is no point in buying DSD files if they're anyway spoilt afterwards in the Linn streamer's conversion process.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Because the Linn doesn't do DSD. So one instance converts DSD>PCM, and the other instance doesn't. So, if I'm playing the Linn, I'll use one instance, and if I'm playing other DACs/streamers (like our MSBs), we can use the other instance.Quote:
Originally Posted by wklie
Revisiting this thread, a year later, to announce that, finally, Linn now supports native DSD! It's only in the Katalyst powered devices, like the Linn Klimax DS/DSM!
It's just a simple software upgrade, done via Linn's Konfig app.
From what I've read, it's native DSD, direct into the AKM chip, no PCM conversion.
Played a couple of albums already, and it sounds awesome!
The bets are now when Linn will do MQA... My guess is somewhere around 2020 :)
cheers,
Alex
Finally. I mean the guys are good, but nevertheless they need to move with the market or risk being left behind.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Well said. I chuckled when I read this. I’m thinking “DSD? That was so yesterday...”Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuoppis
But better late than never and Linn makes terrific products.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I agree with you Mike. DSD is table-stakes, MQA is today’s question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
But to be fair, a lots of manufacturers are struggling with MQA due to the secretive comms policy and some of the tech arguments. If you cut the high-end off and paste it in again on the bottom, is it then still lossless?
Luckily as an end-consumer I have the privilege to just judge it by-the-ear and and be happy or not [emoji3].
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk