Thread: Tube vs. Solid State Pre Amp

I am going to be a busy girl....but, after installing a second cellular blind which covers the artificial fireplace, once again the sound has less SS harshness, almost warm on some recordings...Joni Mitchell, "Wild Things Run Fast" for example.

I will try the VTL 5.5 initially, then I will have a first impression of what the difference might be in the No. 38 and tubes. In any case, all the listening, traveling, or in general goofing off, isn't this what it is all about....LOL?

In my latest speaker movements I have discovered differences in an inch or so. And, I believe I will do some more "room tuning" with dense foam to adjust the low end. I like solid floors, i.e., down to 20Hz, it just seems to add a subtle part to many pieces, barely perceptible, but important.

Thanks for all the suggestions

Like some mentioned before Octave makes some of the best tube amps in the business. Also a 2nd hand Zanden Model3000 is among the best if you want tubes.

For SS pre amps I regard the Symphonic Line RG3 highly. (sorry bit of a SL fanboy)

Sounds like you are having fun with your system and that is what it is all about. My STP-SE is way back to me so I am very excited to be getting some pre-amplifier improvements to play around with very shortly also!!!!

Originally Posted by Msmoto

I am going to be a busy girl....but, after installing a second cellular blind which covers the artificial fireplace, once again the sound has less SS harshness, almost warm on some recordings...Joni Mitchell, "Wild Things Run Fast" for example.

I will try the VTL 5.5 initially, then I will have a first impression of what the difference might be in the No. 38 and tubes. In any case, all the listening, traveling, or in general goofing off, isn't this what it is all about....LOL?

In my latest speaker movements I have discovered differences in an inch or so. And, I believe I will do some more "room tuning" with dense foam to adjust the low end. I like solid floors, i.e., down to 20Hz, it just seems to add a subtle part to many pieces, barely perceptible, but important.

Thanks for all the suggestions

Did not read the whole thread so if I am repeating so sorry. I have the PS Audio BHK Pre and it fits all the needs you mentioned on the first page. You can also tube roll, turn off tube section when not listening. Well below budget. Mosfet output combines best of both tube and solid state.

Congratulations Randy!

Now that was a smart move You still have the option of doing the Level 2 on it in the future for even more performance.

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

Sounds like you are having fun with your system and that is what it is all about. My STP-SE is way back to me so I am very excited to be getting some pre-amplifier improvements to play around with very shortly also!!!!

Yea, already mentioned it to EJ. I just have to save up to afford the upgrade ....

The STP- SE is arriving tomorrow ... Unfortunately I have to go to an office that is about an hour away tomorrow to meet with the data team of the company that bought us .... so I won't get to play until the evening... really looking forward to seeing how it interacts with the ARC amp.

Already mentioned earlier, but the Cary SLP05 and Rogue Hera II are fantastic options (Cary will give you a little more "warmth" then the Rogue).

If you don't care about a remote control, don't care about balanced, and don't mind waiting a while to get one in....the Leben RS-28CX is an AMAZING pre (and you will be quite a bit under your budget as well).

I would also think about the Line Magnetic 512CA.

Line Magnetic 25B is also another option....

I hooked the Ampzilla up tonight. Wanted to give it a little play time before the STP-SE arrives tomorrow... Boy, I got to say this really is a fantastic amplifier... I forgot just how good it's imaging is... all kinds of guts (using nice terms)... just a sweet sounding amplifier...

I think it is only a matter of time before people start realizing what an amazing amplifier this is... the TAS Editor's Choice Award it just received won't hurt either...

OK, folks, my question is answered. I auditioned the VTL 5.5 II pre amp and that was about all there was. For my ears, it solved the issue I wanted resolved, the harshness of the upper end with the ML No. 38. Plus, I was able to remove some of the Roomtunes and the sound remained clear, sweet, not at all harsh.

Another difference, is the room seems filled with sound, not broken into discrete little pieces. More like a concert hall than a recording studio which is dead. Or, closer, IMO, to a live performance.
For those tube fans out there, I suspect you know what I am talking about. But for me, having never had tubes in my own system, only heard them in another less tuned system, i.e., a $50,000 set up 25 years ago, my old impression was they did not give the subtitles of the human voice. However, what I have now, so delicately detailed yet no harshness, this is close to the ultimate, once again, my ears, my opinion.

Once I catch my breath from this outlay of cash, I will be thinking of replacing the No. 27.5. Tubes or solid state, golly, more questions. I suppose if anyone has an opinion on this, i am all ears.... no pun intended......LOL

Thanks for all the help and suggestions. It made my decision so much easier.

enjoy your toy Tommie !

Enjoy... very glad you found what you are looking for!

Totem likes some current, if you must replace the power amp I recommend solid state for that reason. You should take a listen to Pass Labs. Now though there are tubes like kt120 & 150 that I've not experienced in a system. I've also heard a 40 watt Octave integrated drive a set of Dynaudio Confidence 4's pretty well, so tubes may not be totally out of the equation. There is also those who have had good results matching a tube pre to Class D power.

A lot also depends on your taste in music and listening habits. Although I loved my tubes I find myself enjoying the transient response of solid state on Rock and higher energy Jazz preferable. There's tube amps out there now that probably have better transients than my CJ had but you'll find good tube power amps for equal power are very expensive comparatively to SS or Class D.

Originally Posted by Msmoto

OK, folks, my question is answered. I auditioned the VTL 5.5 II pre amp and that was about all there was. For my ears, it solved the issue I wanted resolved, the harshness of the upper end with the ML No. 38. Plus, I was able to remove some of the Roomtunes and the sound remained clear, sweet, not at all harsh.

Another difference, is the room seems filled with sound, not broken into discrete little pieces. More like a concert hall than a recording studio which is dead. Or, closer, IMO, to a live performance.
For those tube fans out there, I suspect you know what I am talking about. But for me, having never had tubes in my own system, only heard them in another less tuned system, i.e., a $50,000 set up 25 years ago, my old impression was they did not give the subtitles of the human voice. However, what I have now, so delicately detailed yet no harshness, this is close to the ultimate, once again, my ears, my opinion.

Once I catch my breath from this outlay of cash, I will be thinking of replacing the No. 27.5. Tubes or solid state, golly, more questions. I suppose if anyone has an opinion on this, i am all ears.... no pun intended......LOL

Thanks for all the help and suggestions. It made my decision so much easier.

Or try a Hybrid like the BHK amps or another of that type.

good idea as well

Originally Posted by Jack

Or try a Hybrid like the BHK amps or another of that type.

I just got my STP-SE pre-amplifier back from my buddy. What an amazing sounding unit. Currently using it with the ARC but will try it with the Ampzilla later on.... In my opinion EJ's two finest pieces.

Originally Posted by Jack

Or try a Hybrid like the BHK amps or another of that type.

........or the Rogue Medusa, drove my electrostatics with ease, the most musical and affordable Class D (Hybrid) I've heard to date

http://www.rogueaudio.com/Products_Medusa.htm

Interestingly enough, my first thoughts are that I would have to have something like 150 watt mono blocks to satisfy the Totems if I were going the tube route.

There is one amp I have access to which just might have the current capabilities to drive the Totems well, enough head room for a car to drive through, the Plinius SB-301. This would be putting out about 400 watts a side into 6 ohms. And, some folks have heard this amp sound very "tube like" if this is possible.

My music tastes run from full orchestral pieces...Henryk Gorecki to Leo Kottke, throw in Amanda McBroom, The Tenors, a bit of Cannonball Adderley, Sarah Brightman, Jewel, The Eagles, Heart, David Ball....on and on. My favorite staging pieces are on Roger Water's Amused to Death, the first and last tracks. Oh, golly, Virgil Fox, Ton Koopman on organs.... now this is where one needs the power. With my sub which hits 20 Hz measured..... the house is shaking, like sixth row at a live organ concert. A "happening" as Virgil might say.

My methodology for equipment is to attempt to listen, but this is almost always with great difficulties as all sound rooms are different, and getting the equipment into my space is not often easy. So, I read reviews, like someone describing a ballet, not a lot of help, but this can perk up my interest in a particular piece of equipment, thus encouraging the actual listening experience. Mostly I read reviews of what is suggested on these forums, a starting place at least.

So, the Plinius will be the next audition, and if it proves to be a nice improvement, OMG, more cash out the door.... One fact, or alternative fact whatever your pleasure, is, I cannot imagine what improvement could be made. Possibly bringing my soundstage forward...something which the VTL 5.5 did to a great extent. I like having the voices in my lap, sonically, that is.

OK, appreciate all the help. Will check in when I have more progress to report.

Tommie, another 'Plinny' fan here, I have the SA-102 driving my Revel Studio 2's. I also use a pair of Rogue M-180 (tube) mono blocks when the mood strikes, great amps. Check out Rogue Audio when you get a chance, great products at affordable prices IMO.

If we are going to start suggesting amplifier brands to consider you would be doing yourself a favor considering the new SST Son Of Ampzilla II. The last design by an audio design legend, hall of fame member, and finished by a young audio design genius ....

This thread here on the Shark is fairly revealing... Benchmark AHB2 (read the entire thread)

And the issue of TAS that just came out gave it an Editor's Choice Award... certainly worthy of consideration.... being hand built in the US (Atascadero California) and backed with a five year warranty does not hurt either...

I've not heard Plinius but lot's of good feedback. Maybe the dealer will give you a home audition which would be great, your own system and room. Let me know how it goes when you get a listen.

The older Levinson has that presentation that puts you further back in the venue, that can be difficult to get used to.

Originally Posted by Msmoto

Interestingly enough, my first thoughts are that I would have to have something like 150 watt mono blocks to satisfy the Totems if I were going the tube route.

There is one amp I have access to which just might have the current capabilities to drive the Totems well, enough head room for a car to drive through, the Plinius SB-301. This would be putting out about 400 watts a side into 6 ohms. And, some folks have heard this amp sound very "tube like" if this is possible.

My music tastes run from full orchestral pieces...Henryk Gorecki to Leo Kottke, throw in Amanda McBroom, The Tenors, a bit of Cannonball Adderley, Sarah Brightman, Jewel, The Eagles, Heart, David Ball....on and on. My favorite staging pieces are on Roger Water's Amused to Death, the first and last tracks. Oh, golly, Virgil Fox, Ton Koopman on organs.... now this is where one needs the power. With my sub which hits 20 Hz measured..... the house is shaking, like sixth row at a live organ concert. A "happening" as Virgil might say.

My methodology for equipment is to attempt to listen, but this is almost always with great difficulties as all sound rooms are different, and getting the equipment into my space is not often easy. So, I read reviews, like someone describing a ballet, not a lot of help, but this can perk up my interest in a particular piece of equipment, thus encouraging the actual listening experience. Mostly I read reviews of what is suggested on these forums, a starting place at least.

So, the Plinius will be the next audition, and if it proves to be a nice improvement, OMG, more cash out the door.... One fact, or alternative fact whatever your pleasure, is, I cannot imagine what improvement could be made. Possibly bringing my soundstage forward...something which the VTL 5.5 did to a great extent. I like having the voices in my lap, sonically, that is.

OK, appreciate all the help. Will check in when I have more progress to report.

As it turns out, I can audition an sb-301 which has a few hundred hours on it..thus I will get the full effect. My intentions are not so much to improve anything, but simply to bring what I have more up to date. And, what I have read about the Plinius is pretty good.

My current configuration, speakers about 7 feet apart, listening spot 9 feet back, has a sound stage with orchestral works of roughly 18 - 20 feet wide, yet solo voices are spot on, not blurred in anyway. I have a very real sense of depth fore and aft as well, especially with small groups. Isolation of piano, drums, horns, strings, very nicely accomplished.

This has been arrived at after about twenty or thirty speaker positions, moving an inch or so at a time.

Thus, improvement will be difficult to achieve, but a sense of more head room for the speakers, this may turn out to be the primary improvement.

My mind also gets in the way, suggesting to me that it is all smoke and mirrors, even when it is my own...LOL

Having just finished Henryk Gorecki's Symphony No. 3, Opus 36.... cannot imagine it getting any more beautiful. But we will see.

Enjoy! Hopefully it will give you everything you are hoping for and then some ...

And, now the decision.....

My audition of the Plinius SB-301.... very nice, a bit warmer than my ML No. 27.5, but only marginally so. IMO, not worth the switch at big bucks. I am concluding i have either an exceptional No. 27.5, or the combination of interconnects, FLAC files as source, the Pro-Ject turntable, whatever, is working so as to give me the warmest possible sound from my current configuration.

And, so now, the VTL S200.... tried with both Moderate and Lo damping factor, both triode and tetrode mode.....the results.... Lo damping factor seemed to give an overall brightness to the Totems, maybe a bit warmer than the ML 27.5, but not appreciably so. With moderate damping factor... driving the 4 ohm Totems became a phenomenal experience. Exactly what I was looking for in the mid and upper mid range. This removed the grit from Ruthie Henshall, George Jones, and Willie Nelson while retaining the excellent detail inherent in all these voices. At the same time i felt I was hearing a more tightly controlled low end as well. Have as yet to figure out the exact difference between tetrode and triode as I did not know which was in.

While a novice in all this high end audio stuff.... that is I really do not know if it is all smoke and mirrors or if I am actually hearing these subtleties, I think the suggestion that matching a VTL pre amp and amp is somewhat of an advantage as Bea and the gang must know at least a bit of what they are doing. In any case, the VTL S200 will replace the ML 27.5.

Now, more questions....about the tubes in the S200.... if any thoughts about this are possible, would love to hear these. First, the pre amp tubes in the S200, 12AT7 and 12BH7... 2 each. Any thoughts about these? Recommendations? And, the eight amplifier or power tubes, 6550 or KT-88. Which are the best and for what reasons? Brands? Gold pins?

Open ears are listening.....thanks, Tommie

Awesome and glad you found what you are looking for!

I am working through similar things as you, learning and discovering, etc. I am liking having both a tube amp and a solid state to switch back and forth. I do not like the playing around and worrying about biasing tube amps ... and I am thinking that something like the ARC VT80 will probably be my destination amp ...

Tommie, with regards to tubes, both signal and power, listen through your stock supplied tubes for awhile to establish your 'benchmark' before you start the rolling game. Get your self acquainted with other owners of like equipment so as to feel out their opinions, touch base with some reliable vendors. For me Jim McShane has never let me down, here's his link ........

http://www.mcshanedesign.net

Several thoughts on the VTL Signature S200 amp.... adjustable damping factor, automatic tube biasing, and easily switched from tetrode to triode, simply push a button and the amp goes through its own electronically protected switching process. Wonderful convenience, it makes the change from a dynamic boom-boom listening to a softer warmer presentation so easy.

Damping factor changes, these require complete shut down, cooling off, and very carefully opening the cabinet. I did it with a very delicate wooden paddle, being extremely careful to not touch any of the tubes. When I told my dealer what I had done during the audition, he got a bit excited about me going into his amp, but I reassured him .... probably mumbling something about replacing the tube i knocked over....LOL...tooo funny.

This tetrode/triode switching ease is only on their Signature Series, not on the less expensive amps in VTL's line-up, however.

So you gave your dealer a heart attack eh .... that is funny.... enjoy discovering your new pre and new amplifier!

The VTL sounds like a nice amp. If I ever went back to tubes self bias would be a feature I'd like to have. It also sounds like you are able to tailor the presentation to taste to some extent using the damping factor and tetrode/triode.

I'm not a tube guru, I always thought kt-88 and 6550 were pretty much the same thing. What really changes the sound is the brand of tube.

Trust your ears, you are the bes judget and most familiar with your system and what you are used to hearing.

Only about another ten days for the KT-88's to arrive, then I will have my new S200 in place. From what I can gather about the difference in a KT-88 and 6550, the 6550 has better bass but also has a bit of graininess in the mid and highs. As my Totem Element Metals with the accompanying Thunder II Sub have such powerful bass already, I have no concerns about the low end. The characteristics of the Element Metal are a nearly holographic, highly detailed mid and upper end, and this can exacerbate, at least to my ears, the issues of digital, even from the No. 27.5 ML amp, and my desire is for a warmer sound, which I think the KT-88's can give vs. the 6550.

And, from the folks at VTL, "I highly recommend the Gold Lion KT-88 tubes which is a premium quality tube and offers a top end that's more extended and less grainy than the 6550. I personally prefer the Gold Lion KT-88 for its richer tonal quality. However, the 6550 tube does go deeper in the bass and may have a tad more control of the bass than the KT-88. In the end this is very much a personal preference determined by the user's musical taste."

So, thee you have it....just sitting here patiently waiting....and of course listening to some Leonard Cohen.....

Too bad the real Gold Lion/Genelex/M&O KT-88 tubes are no longer in production. They do not take a backseat in the bass department to any 6550 and they outperform them everywhere else in the audio spectrum. The Russian Gold Lion remake of the KT-88 tube is pretty good and I would take it over any 6550 tube in current production.

Tubes have shipped from VTL.... seven days and counting......

Nice... sounds like you are getting into your new gear... that is excellent!

After a couple weeks of waiting, the new tube set (KT-88's) for the S200 arrived, have been installed, and are functioning well. I am now hearing with the VTL S200, after replacing the Mark Levinson No. 27.5, a solid amplifier which has served extremely well for nearly 25 years, is an expanded sound stage, better spacial delineation front to rear, but most of all, an increase in the fullness of the notes, the lack of any harshness in the upper range, and detail even in the quietest passages.
My favorite sound stage test cut currently is The Ballad of Bill Hubbard, the first track on Roger Water’s Amused to Death CD. While the beginning dog bark was previously out to one’s right at 2:30 or 3:00 o’clock, it is now nearly behind the listener at 4:00 o’clock. And, the initial voices instead of on the left at 10:00 o’clock, now are out at 9:00. With the volume up loud enough to hear the voices well, the first big note was rather cutting and harsh with the Levinson, now it is simply large and clear, with a warmth and sweetness even at a level which tends to move one back in their chair. The remainder of the track follows with such roundness to the notes, a filled in sound stage which was clearly lacking with the solid state amplification previously used. And, this, I am told, is what tubes are all about.
The convenience of the VTL set up is in the programming. The 5.5 Series II pre amp controls the power to the S200 amp and triggering of the S200 occurs after the pre is fully warmed up. The sequence electronically for the Signature VTL line is designed so as to take care of issues folks have apparently complained about with tubes for years. Even the bias issues are covered with the programmed warm up in both units. So, what we end up with is all the wondrous musicality of tubes, but without all the previous headaches, VTL has it covered.

Now on to more listening, which of course I have done. Female vocalists not only have more detail, especially the breathiness which is a primary character of feminine voice, but the gentle nature is more present, something which the solid state amplification did not seem to have. And I tested a high end solid state amp considered to have much in the way of tube qualities, but this did not even come close to the results with the VTL S200.

Chet Atkins, well he may have some folks who are his equal, but nothing can top him, my opinion, of course. And, his notes are so beautifully reproduced with the tubes, they sound to me very close to classical guitar, rather than electric. Leo sounds fantastic as well.

When Ruthie Henshall sings Pilgrim on her album by the same name, one hears her voice gently crack as she dips down low, and the softness when up in her range, such an addition to the listening experience, like being in the same room.

In summarizing my early experience with the VTL 5.5 II and S200, for my ears this sounds better than anything I have heard previously, including some speakers in the >$100,000 range. Am I happy? Your guess....

Hi, Msmoto, aka Ms. Tommie Lauer, I'm happy for you, it is great when you get your system the way you like it to sound.