Thread: Thinking about upgrading my preamp...

I'm currently running a Parasound Halo P5 preamp. It has served me quite well over the past 3+ years since purchased new. It has done everything I've asked it to do and I have had no issues with it. With that being said, I think I could better these days with a new preamp.

I'm looking at preamps at a max of about $1800. It needs to have at least one balanced input and one balanced output as well as a pair of SE outputs. A built-in DAC isn't exactly crucial but may prove beneficial as I use the one in the P5 for my Roku. It doesn't even need a built-in phono preamp as I can get a Schitt Mani pre fairly cheap. Heck, even a Modi for that matter for the Roku. Though it would be a lot cleaner in the rack without having a bunch of extra components.

What I have been looking at so far is the new Parasound Halo P6. It's supposed to be a decent upgrade from the P5, not to mention it uses that 128 stepped resistor volume control. Another strong contender is the PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell DAC with its gain cell volume control.

Right now, I'm actually leaning more towards the PS Audio. And of course, if you guys/gals have any other recommendations, please share them with me. Many thanks in advance!

Why not consider a used JC2 preamp? It will be huge step up from the P5, P6 and P7.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/li...er-solid-state

I considered one after selling my Pass X1 preamp but decided to go the tube route with my BAT.

I have a friend that has the JC2 and it sounds awesome.

That's a thought, but I'd rather purchase new.

IMO the best sounding preamp under $2K is the Wyred4Sound STP-SE

I guess you could say the STP-SE is "under" $2k, at $1999. LOL

I totally forgot about W4S, and that is a great preamp that shoots above its price point, which is the theme of my system. I'll have to read up on it again.

Any other suggestions fellas? I'm all ears!

Charles let me start by asking you what qualities are important to you in the reproduction of the music you listen to? Maybe with some simple info we can guide you to the options that are best suited to your audio tastes.

Check out the NAD C568, I believe msrp is $1500. I haven't heard one but several places sell with return policy.

Really though, in sub $2k I have to wonder if you'd gain enough improvement to make a switch worth while.

Originally Posted by nc42acc

Charles let me start by asking you what qualities are important to you in the reproduction of the music you listen to? Maybe with some simple info we can guide you to the options that are best suited to your audio tastes.

I prefer a nice and natural or neutral sound overall. A solid, tight bottom end, midrange with good presence and openness, and an airy, detailed top end with just a bit a warmth so it stays silky and smooth. I don't like hyper-detail, analytical, etchy sound, or dry and lean bass and midrange.

A better way of putting it essentially would be bi-amping with a traditional solid state amp for the bass, a hybrid SS/tube amp for the midrange, and a tube amp for the treble... If that makes any sense.

I would love to have a tube preamp honestly, but considering I leave my system up and running 24/7, a tube preamp wouldn't be the right choice.

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

Check out the NAD C568, I believe msrp is $1500. I haven't heard one but several places sell with return policy.

Really though, in sub $2k I have to wonder if you'd gain enough improvement to make a switch worth while.

I'm assuming you mean the NAD C510.

I too was thinking that, that it would be a sideways move. But... I think the major upgrade in the volume control in the two preamps mentioned in my first post alone would be a healthy improvement. My Halo P5 uses a simply analog volume pot.

Charles so you need both RCA and XLR inputs and sounds like at least two outputs for biamping?

Originally Posted by chops

I prefer a nice and natural or neutral sound overall. A solid, tight bottom end, midrange with good presence and openness, and an airy, detailed top end with just a bit a warmth so it stays silky and smooth. I don't like hyper-detail, analytical, etchy sound, or dry and lean bass and midrange.

A better way of putting it essentially would be bi-amping with a traditional solid state amp for the bass, a hybrid SS/tube amp for the midrange, and a tube amp for the treble... If that makes any sense.

I would love to have a tube preamp honestly, but considering I leave my system up and running 24/7, a tube preamp wouldn't be the right choice.

A second for the STP-SE.

Originally Posted by nc42acc

Charles so you need both RCA and XLR inputs and sounds like at least two outputs for biamping?

Marty, I would need two sets of outputs, one pair of the subs, one pair (preferably XLR) for the amps. And if I decide to keep the Oppo 105D, possibly at least one set of XLR inputs. I guess I wouldn't really "need" to run balanced, but it is nice to have it and use it.

Charles here is an option that is a little different. It is a Hattor passive preamp with a buffer. Not everyones cup of tea but I have the fully passive version and am waiting on the version with the buffer. My only gripe with the fully passive version is you lose some of the dynamics but the transparency is amazing. Just an option with the other great suggestions. http://www.hattor.com/

I really like that Hattor preamp, Marty.

I wish their site went into detail on the various options they offer (Takman REX, REY) as well as the active options (OPA2134, NewClassD), not to mention, I don't understand what the real difference is between stereo and dual mono mode. Either way, you have two channels with stereo information going through both.

I know that Vishay and Takman are resistors, but they could at least explain differences in sound, likewise with the opamps and NewClassD.

Charles the person behind Hattor is Arek Kallas and he is very good about answering questions. If you are interested please send him an email and I am sure he will respond. He is located in Poland so remember the time difference. Good luck.

Marty, before I contact Arek, I still want to look at other options as well, but thanks for the info. I'm definitely keeping the Hattor in mind.

Charles there are many options out there. The W4S option looks like an amazing bargain in a preamp. Those guys keep churning out great products. Good luck.

Originally Posted by chops

Marty, before I contact Arek, I still want to look at other options as well, but thanks for the info. I'm definitely keeping the Hattor in mind.

Funny no one says anything about the two I mentioned, especially the PS Audio. The Stellar Gain Cell DAC preamp is supposed to be quite the heavy hitter.

Another preamp I was looking at was the Schiit Freya. Yes it uses tubes, but at one point, Schiit produced solid state tube replacements for the 6SN7's. Those SS replacements were said to actually sound pretty good, but they are now hard to get a hold of, and as far as I know, no one else makes SS replacements. And the only reason I would want those SS replacements again is because I leave my system running 24/7.

Thinking about it more however, I supposed I'm highly limiting myself by completely ruling out tube preamps. If I found a tube preamp that didn't have any kind of turn-on/off thump, I could still leave the amps on. It's a bit of a pain to the amps on and off considering the power switch is on the back panels, and they're on the bottom shelf.

Originally Posted by Oly

IMO the best sounding preamp under $2K is the Wyred4Sound STP-SE

I really enjoyed the STP-SE when I had mine. Recently purchased a used Stage 2 STP-SE. It's stellar. WAAAAY better than the regular version. I absolutely love it.

Charles

Based on the reviews and the owners on the PS forum the Gain Cell is a quality piece of gear but I haven't heard it only the BHK which I own. I have owned the STP-SE for five years and I know that it is hard to beat without spending a good bit more plus it's input and output flexibility is very good. Also it's gain structure makes it an easy match for almost any amp on the market. As Joe said the $2000 upgrade to the Stage 2 does make a big difference but it can be done at a latter date.

Sorry, number swap, https://nadelectronics.com/product/c...streaming-dac/

Originally Posted by joeinid

I really enjoyed the STP-SE when I had mine. Recently purchased a used Stage 2 STP-SE. It's stellar. WAAAAY better than the regular version. I absolutely love it.

Originally Posted by Jack

Charles

Based on the reviews and the owners on the PS forum the Gain Cell is a quality piece of gear but I haven't heard it only the BHK which I own. I have owned the STP-SE for five years and I know that it is hard to beat without spending a good bit more plus it's input and output flexibility is very good. Also it's gain structure makes it an easy match for almost any amp on the market. As Joe said the $2000 upgrade to the Stage 2 does make a big difference but it can be done at a latter date.

Man, that is a lot of $$$ for the Stage 2 upgrade, but if it's worth it...

On that note, one of my brothers has a barely used Emotive PT-100 preamp that I could borrow for a bit. That way I can go ahead and sell the Parasound Halo P5 along with the Oppo 105D that I'm also putting up for sale this weekend. At the rate both of these units are selling for currently, I can get close to $2k for them alone. Add to that my tax return, I should be able to stretch up to around $3k or so for a preamp.

So there's that. $3k could get me into a whole other tier of preamps.

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

Sorry, number swap, https://nadelectronics.com/product/c...streaming-dac/

No worries sir.

I was actually looking at this unit a couple days ago. There's no mention of a silver version for it, which is something I would want. Not that I wouldn't buy black anyway, but if I can get silver, even better.

Basic Black has been the NAD standard for decades.

Charles

If you put in saved searches on hifishark.com you may be able to find a used STP-SE and Gain Cell for not much more than $2k for both of them and then you can try them both and sell one of them with little or no loss.

Also another solid option since you are using a pair of their amps is the Nuprime DAC-10. I have been using one in my FR system for over two years with a variety of amps including the ST-10 and have no desire to change it out.

Originally Posted by audio.bill

Highly unlikely that there would be a silver version offered, since none of the standard NAD line (non-Master series) are offered in any optional finishes.

Originally Posted by Jack

Basic Black has been the NAD standard for decades.

Very true. Good point.

Originally Posted by Jack

Charles

If you put in saved searches on hifishark.com you may be able to find a used STP-SE and Gain Cell for not much more than $2k for both of them and then you can try them both and sell one of them with little or no loss.

Also another solid option since you are using a pair of their amps is the Nuprime DAC-10. I have been using one in my FR system for over two years with a variety of amps including the ST-10 and have no desire to change it out.

For whatever reason, I keep forgetting about the NuPrime preamps. Don't know why since like you said, I have two of their amps sitting in front of my face every day. LOL I wonder how it compares to the other preamps mentioned here.

Another preamp that I've been interested in but thought it was out of my price range is the Hegel P20. From the little bit that I've read, it's supposed to be pretty decent as well.

Originally Posted by chops

Funny no one says anything about the two I mentioned, especially the PS Audio. The Stellar Gain Cell DAC preamp is supposed to be quite the heavy hitter.

Another preamp I was looking at was the Schiit Freya. Yes it uses tubes, but at one point, Schiit produced solid state tube replacements for the 6SN7's. Those SS replacements were said to actually sound pretty good, but they are now hard to get a hold of, and as far as I know, no one else makes SS replacements. And the only reason I would want those SS replacements again is because I leave my system running 24/7.

Thinking about it more however, I supposed I'm highly limiting myself by completely ruling out tube preamps. If I found a tube preamp that didn't have any kind of turn-on/off thump, I could still leave the amps on. It's a bit of a pain to the amps on and off considering the power switch is on the back panels, and they're on the bottom shelf.

If you are considering a budget tube preamp, give a look to AVA HiFi. Frank Van Alstine makes nice sounding gear. And he has a 30 day return policy. He can customize his preamps as well to some extent. I own some of his older gear and have done reviews for him. His SS preamp sounds very good.

https://avahifi.com/collections/preamplifiers

Don't know about turn-on or off thump as I have never used one of Frank's tube based preamp but with an input sensitivity of 1.4 volts for the STA-9 you should be good with a tube preamp into the mid-teens with gain. I think Frank told me his were 12 db. Only problem is they are strictly SE only.

As to the sound of the STP-SE vs the DAC-10 they are both pretty much neutral which would be a good match for your amps which are on the warmer side of neutral as are your speakers.

Originally Posted by Jack

Don't know about turn-on or off thump as I have never used one of Frank's tube based preamp but with an input sensitivity of 1.4 volts for the STA-9 you should be good with a tube preamp into the mid-teens with gain. I think Frank told me his were 12 db. Only problem is they are strictly SE only.

As to the sound of the STP-SE vs the DAC-10 they are both pretty much neutral which would be a good match for your amps which are on the warmer side of neutral as are your speakers.

Good points made.

I think you're right that either one of those preamps would be a good match. The P5 is said to be a little "chalky" or cold, which is probably why I went with these amps and speakers. But with my other choices, it all evens out.

I imagine going with either of those preamps, I'd probably get just a little more warmth on the top end due to them not being "hot" up top.

Spend a little more, and get a Pass XP-12.

Bud

Not sure how three times your budget qualifies as "a little more."

Charles

If you get the DAC-10 from AA then you have 30 days to verify that it does what you want. The DAC in it is a step up from where you are now also.

You might also want to check in on AC as there are plenty of users there.

Originally Posted by Jack

Bud

Not sure how three times your budget qualifies as "a little more."

Don’t pay retail. Shop around.

Trust me, I would absolutely LOVE to have a Pass XP-12. But unless Mike can get me a really great deal on one or I find one second hand, it ain't gonna happen.

Nice thing is though, Mike's store isn't but about 60 miles west of me, so there's that.

Charles maybe Mike will be gracious and let you demo a few preamps at home? This is the only way you will know if it I the right piece for you and your tastes.

Originally Posted by chops

Trust me, I would absolutely LOVE to have a Pass XP-12. But unless Mike can get me a really great deal on one or I find one second hand, it ain't gonna happen.

Nice thing is though, Mike's store isn't but about 60 miles west of me, so there's that.

Originally Posted by nc42acc

Charles maybe Mike will be gracious and let you demo a few preamps at home? This is the only way you will know if it I the right piece for you and your tastes.

Very true indeed.

I know nothing about Jeff Rowland gear but there is a Capri + with phono card listed on Audiogon for under your budget.

Charles, what happened to all that great Carver gear you had collected? I thought you were enamored by it.

Originally Posted by nc42acc

I know nothing about Jeff Rowland gear but there is a Capri + with phono card listed on Audiogon for under your budget.

I saw that also. I know JR is darn good gear, but I haven't heard any of it in a very long time.

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

Charles, what happened to all that great Carver gear you had collected? I thought you were enamored by it.

Sold it all months ago. It sounded good, but you had to do a LOT of modding to get them there, which meant a LOT of $$$. Also, they all had little issues that kept popping up and I had to keep sending units back and forth across the country.

Originally Posted by chops

Sold it all months ago. It sounded good, but you had to do a LOT of modding to get them there, which meant a LOT of $$$. Also, they all had little issues that kept popping up and I had to keep sending units back and forth across the country.

Ahhh... sorry to hear that. I knew at the time you seemed pretty thrilled, but I also understand the feeling. Finding something that at first you love but over time it sours a bit. I have had a few changes trying to get to that certain point myself ...

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

Ahhh... sorry to hear that. I knew at the time you seemed pretty thrilled, but I also understand the feeling. Finding something that at first you love but over time it sours a bit. I have had a few changes trying to get to that certain point myself ...

Yeah, trying to revitalize 30+ year old gear and keeping it running smoothly gets costly after a short while, especially when the PCB's weren't exactly the greatest quality and the circuit designs needed to be re-designed as part of the updates/upgrades. It's not like an old McIntosh piece that all you have to do is replace a few caps, resistors and diodes and let it live on for another 50 years.

You guys have had me thinking about that Pass Labs XP-12 all day today. I probably need to get in contact with Mike and see what he can do for me. If he can't work out a deal on an XP-12, maybe he has some XP-10's laying around that he can let go in my price range.

I'm a bit confused as to the goal of changing pre's. What is it that the P5 currently isn't providing?

It seems to me a move to the P6 is a lateral move. Pararsound makes great products, but would think you need to increase your budget to gain appreciable differences. To spend basically the same amount "again" ($1500 ~) on a similar product? I'm sure it would be a great fit if you're happy with the P5 but I don't really see the logic IMHO.

A used JC2 would be the more apt upgrade in the Parasound line up for sure and the increase in budget would deliver substantial results I would think

The comments on the Pass and wyred 4 sound by all accounts, would be a significant upgrade and something to consider heavily depending on your goals.

Originally Posted by Swisstrips

I'm a bit confused as to the goal of changing pre's. What is it that the P5 currently isn't providing?

It seems to me a move to the P6 is a lateral move. Pararsound makes great products, but would think you need to increase your budget to gain appreciable differences. To spend basically the same amount "again" ($1500 ~) on a similar product? I'm sure it would be a great fit if you're happy with the P5 but I don't really see the logic IMHO.

A used JC2 would be the more apt upgrade in the Parasound line up for sure and the increase in budget would deliver substantial results I would think

The comments on the Pass and wyred 4 sound by all accounts, would be a significant upgrade and something to consider heavily depending on your goals.

My thought going with the P6 would be the better volume control and better DAC over my older P5.

The more I think about all of my options so far, I'm still leaning towards the PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell DAC. The price is right, the quality is there, the positive reviews are there, the buyer's remorse wouldn't be there. LOL The only thing missing would be a phono stage, but I can easily take care of that with the very cost friendly and very flexible Schiit Mani.

It's still all up in the air at the moment, but that's the direction I'm probably going to go.

Might be a good choice for you Charles. The DAC is not as important to you being that you are a vinyl nut .

I owned the matching mono amps for a while, the M700s. They were very nice, no complaints at all. I just never got that warm and fuzzy from them. Don't even know why... just never grabbed me.

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

Might be a good choice for you Charles. The DAC is not as important to you being that you are a vinyl nut .

I owned the matching mono amps for a while, the M700s. They were very nice, no complaints at all. I just never got that warm and fuzzy from them. Don't even know why... just never grabbed me.

It may be. I still have a little research to do with other units of course, but I keep coming back to the PS Audio. Oddly enough, even more so than the Wyred 4 Sound. And it's not because of the $$$ difference either. I've been entertaining the Hegel P20 for ages now, and still, I keep coming back to the PS Audio.

Ugg... Choices...


Randy, what gear "haven't" you tried in your system. LOL