Thread: Can you name a preamp with the ..........

Can you name a preamp with the biggest, widest, tallest, deepest and most layered three dimensional sound stage?

I am curious, in your experience, what you value most in a preamp.

STP-SE

Obvious answer for me is a preamplifier that does what I need it to do and gets out of the way. One not so obvious feature that I have recently learned to value and has become an absolute for me is number of outputs. I do not know if many other preamps have this or not, but the STP-SE has four sets of outputs and I am now using them all. I do not know if I could get by with less at this point.

I have one set to my First Watt amplifier, another to the Audio Research. A third set goes to the two subwoofers and the fourth is used by the headphone amplifier. By being able to keep all hooked up allows me to turn on or off whatever amplifiers I am using at the time. So if I am listening to headphones I have the other amplifiers (including subwoofer amps) turned off, and only the Woo on.

Sound wise image and sound stage is one aspect that I really enjoy and the Wyred pre seems to deliver very well! I do not need a bunch of do-dads.... tone controls and fancy lights. I actually prefer a preamplifier that is more minimalistic. The only flash thing that I use on the STP-SE is I do label the inputs.

For tubes: VAC Statement or REF10.

For SS: the one you already have. Ayre KX-R Twenty. Although my Vitus SL-102 Mk2 is right up there.

On a budget: used REF5SE. What do I say to myself when I remember letting that one go? DAMN IT! DAMN IT! DAMN IT!

Ha!

I understand. I miss my GAT. I should have upgraded to GAT II, although it wasn't the quietest preamp, it was pretty awesome. My Ayre has spoiled me, it's stellar and dead quiet.

Would agree on the new ARC Ref stuff.

Definitely not their old LS line.

Dag preamp is up there.

For me, it is my McIntosh C1000C/P solid state preamplifier. I also owned the C1000C/T tube preamplifier I used in a separate sound system but discovered the C1000C/P solid state preamplifier was quieter, particularly the moving coil phono stage. This preamplifier is a true statement piece that delivers a tremendously realistic performance. The power supply is dual mono, and completely independent in its own component enclosure from the dual mono and fully balanced audio circuits in the preamplifier enclosure. The C1000C/P has all the control functions I need and none that I don't require. The build quality and parts selection are top notch. It provides four balanced and four unbalanced outputs per channel for unsurpassed connectivity. Best of all the C1000C/P sounds superb, is dead quiet, incredibly dynamic, and creates an astonishingly wide, deep, and holographic sound stage. It is highly unlikely I will ever part with this preamplifier. It provides everything I need to reproduce a thoroughly believable and completely enjoyable audio performance.

Looks beautiful Dan. I had the C500T and loved it. A friend had, sold and is now getting another C1100. I love that piece. I'm going back over to hear it again once it's broken in. I'm thinking the C1100 plus MC2301's could be IT!

Originally Posted by Mike

For tubes: VAC Statement or REF10.

For SS: the one you already have. Ayre KX-R Twenty. Although my Vitus SL-102 Mk2 is right up there.

On a budget: used REF5SE. What do I say to myself when I remember letting that one go? DAMN IT! DAMN IT! DAMN IT!

Well there is a used one right now for $8300 on Audiogon

Originally Posted by joeinid

Can you name a preamp with the biggest, widest, tallest, deepest and most layered three dimensional sound stage?

I am curious, in your experience, what you value most in a preamp.

Without question, an ARC REF 40 Anniversary....

Cheers...

Originally Posted by joeinid

Can you name a preamp with the biggest, widest, tallest, deepest and most layered three dimensional sound stage?

I am curious, in your experience, what you value most in a preamp.

I owned and borrowed many preamplifiers.
There is one that stands alone if sound quality is your priority including the aspects you mention above.

It does not have XLR connections, only RCA and it does not have a remote.
A single tube gain stage and massive external power supplies with hand soldered attenuators.

And you have probably never heard of it. It is made in the US by an artisan, one at a time - special order only. If you are looking for the best, this should be on your audition list.

Emmanuel Go
First Sound

http://www.firstsoundaudio.com

Looks awesome Caelin. I think I really need a remote for volume at least.

Originally Posted by joeinid

Looks awesome Caelin. I think I really need a remote for volume at least.

Yeah, it's not for everyone.
I have a low tech remote: "Dear, would you turn the volume up please."

Just went over to the Firstsound website ...

Paramount MKIII-S Super Special Edition Statement
Two Paramount MKIII-SI Special Edition units used separately for left and right channels
6 chassis unit

Paramount MKIII-S Super Special Edition Statement
Two Paramount MKIII-SI Special Edition units used separately for left and right channels
6 chassis unit

Wow! 6 chassis units!

So even the input is selected separate for each channel. That is kind of interesting. Don't think I have ever seen a true dual mono preamplifier...

Originally Posted by Mike

For tubes: VAC Statement or REF10.

For SS: the one you already have. Ayre KX-R Twenty. Although my Vitus SL-102 Mk2 is right up there.

On a budget: used REF5SE. What do I say to myself when I remember letting that one go? DAMN IT! DAMN IT! DAMN IT!

Yes, the ARC REF 10 can have a very wide and deep soundstage depending on the recording. I did a head-to-head comparison between the REF 10 and the REF 6 and while the REF 6 produced a large soundstage depending on the recording, the REF 10 was much wider and deeper. The REF 10 is one of my favorite components. It's never leaving my rack.

Best,
Ken

Hi Mike,

I have no doubt that you love the new Dart pre. I had the original version and enjoyed it but the battery kind of drove me nuts. Sometimes I have music playing for 12-15 hours daily. Of course, not all active listening. The battery would drain, charge, drain, charge in endless cycles. Within a short period the battery life was virtually non-existent and in a constant state of charge. I don't know if the new units have a full AC overide but I eventually sold it.

I will say that my GAT on the Dart 108 was sublime.

Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne

well; there is wide and deep like what a balloon does where everything gets blown up bigger. i'll call that 'bloom+'. it's an artifact that is a coloration.

then there is allowing a source or media to define an actual larger space but action within the space retains a realistic size and shape, allows more ambient clues, and define the actual recording venue more completely with lower noise and less distortion. this is where the recording starts prior to the first note the room comes into focus in your mind and there is a place where this music lives and breathes. the new version 2 of the battery powered darTZeel NHB-18NS does it this way. it's a space machine that allows for every recording to sound more different and when that media has the space, width and depth then you get it. but when it's not there in the recording, there is no sameness of an inflated picture. sometimes the soundstage is flat and narrow. sometimes an instrument is close mic'd and larger than life, and other times things are small and short.

of course; some preamps have a measure of each of those characteristics. there is no right and wrong, but a matter of preference.

personally; give me truth and allow the source and recording and mixing engineer to show their stuff.

I probably should have scooped up Ken's Soulution preamp

Originally Posted by sharkmouth

For me the closest i have experienced in looking into a recording through the preamp has been with MSB & Soulution.

Originally Posted by joeinid

Can you name a preamp with the biggest, widest, tallest, deepest and most layered three dimensional sound stage?I am curious, ie your experience, what you value most in a preamp.

CAT Legend with Black Path Caps and built in phono stage. Sorry but no remote. I really thought I'd miss the remote but I don't really miss it at all. I put on a record, dial the volume to where I want it, and sit down and listen to the whole side. CAT has fine tuned their volume control on this model to pretty small volume increments so its easy to get it just right. I set the volume within about a 3 click range on the knob and leave it alone. Sort of a purist way to do it but no problem after getting used to it. Plus IMHO, the CAT pretty much beats my GAT2. Not that the GAT2 is a slouch; its a great preamp! But the tonality, dynamics, presence, sound stage and imaging of the Legend are just in another league.

Originally Posted by bonzo

I haven’t heard the VAC but would agree on AR Ref 10. It killed the old Dartzeel and the Ypsilon PST 1 with Constellation Inspiration going into Alexia, Lampi as the source. The soundstage was gigantic, pressed back and sideways, and loads of muscle and slam. The attributes in Roy Gregory’s compare with VTL 7.5 and CJ Gat were visible (I haven’t compared with the other 2).

I am not a big fan of lower AR models because though great on air and midrange, they congested on orchestral, but I think probably due to the separate power supply they got rid of that problem

The AR REF 40 Anniversary has the same kind of soundstage retrieval, it also has a massive 40 pound separate power supply .......

Cheers.....

Originally Posted by jdandy

For me, it is my McIntosh C1000C/P solid state preamplifier. I also owned the C1000C/T tube preamplifier I used in a separate sound system but discovered the C1000C/P solid state preamplifier was quieter, particularly the moving coil phono stage. This preamplifier is a true statement piece that delivers a tremendously realistic performance. The power supply is dual mono, and completely independent in its own component enclosure from the dual mono and fully balanced audio circuits in the preamplifier enclosure. The C1000C/P has all the control functions I need and none that I don't require. The build quality and parts selection are top notch. It provides four balanced and four unbalanced outputs per channel for unsurpassed connectivity. Best of all the C1000C/P sounds superb, is dead quiet, incredibly dynamic, and creates an astonishingly wide, deep, and holographic sound stage. It is highly unlikely I will ever part with this preamplifier. It provides everything I need to reproduce a thoroughly believable and completely enjoyable audio performance.

Hello Dan,

Yes. The C1000P had the biggest scene in all dimensions that I experienced in my system at that time.
I would be curious to have it again in my system which is very different now. Especially to compare its scene with the CJ GAT which also have a very big scene. But I do guess that it will win again in this field.
Musically speaking though, in terms of pure musical enjoyment, the C1000P may not be among the very best in my opinion. It is very slightly dark sounding and it misses a few degrees of excitement compared to other designs.
But when you look at all the features, especially the fully balance design and the great inboard phonostage, the C1000P remains a super great choice. (I have serious doubts that the new C1100 could be at the same level of quality). Especially with the mighty 2301's.

I was impressed with my ARC REF 3 years ago until I upgraded to the BAT REX. It was equal in width and had depth of stage that was really great. That being said, the AudioNet PRE G2 preamp I own now is on the same level or better than anything I have heard or owned. It's a special preamp.

Originally Posted by Jerome W

Hello Dan,

Yes. The C1000P had the biggest scene in all dimensions that I experienced in my system at that time.
I would be curious to have it again in my system which is very different now. Especially to compare its scene with the CJ GAT which also have a very big scene. But I do guess that it will win again in this field.
Musically speaking though, in terms of pure musical enjoyment, the C1000P may not be among the very best in my opinion. It is very slightly dark sounding and it misses a few degrees of excitement compared to other designs.
But when you look at all the features, especially the fully balance design and the great inboard phonostage, the C1000P remains a super great choice. (I have serious doubts that the new C1100 could be at the same level of quality). Especially with the mighty 2301's.

Jerome.......I appreciate you expressing your opinion. I do not agree with you that the C1000C/P may not be among the very best. To begin with, the subjectivity of sound and listening to music is never an absolute. I am not discounting your ability to make accurate and rational decisions about your personal audio experiences but those decisions are not necessarily unconditional. The many variables with respect to ancillary components, cables, power conditioning, speakers, and isolation, not to mention the source recordings themselves, create a recipe for sound reproduction that can be shifted one way or the other with the slightest change of ingredients. This makes it nearly impossible to definitively make statements that are universally valid among all with respect to any component's sound. Essentially, it always ends up revolving around a personal opinion. We all have plenty of those.

Saying a component is among the best is not saying a component is THE best. Personally, I do not think any group of audio enthusiasts can agree without exception on the superiority of one component over all others. None the less, there are many excellent audio components that remain highly respected. It is my opinion the McIntosh C1000C/P ranks well among the best.

Michael Fremer had this to say about the C1000 in Stereophile magazine; "The McIntosh C1000 combines ultralow noise and ultra low distortion with transparency, harmonic completeness, and, thanks to its ultralow noise floor, resolution of low level-level microdynamics that is unprecedented in my experience. It delivered unrivaled image specificity without unnatural edge, layer on layer of detail, transient speed and purity without sounding hyper, and delicacy and suppleness without sounding soft and soupy." I am in complete agreement with Michael's comments.

Originally Posted by jdandy

Jerome.......I appreciate you expressing your opinion. I do not agree with you that the C1000C/P may not be among the very best. To begin with, the subjectivity of sound and listening to music is never an absolute. I am not discounting your ability to make accurate and rational decisions about your personal audio experiences but those decisions are not necessarily unconditional. The many variables with respect to ancillary components, cables, power conditioning, speakers, and isolation, not to mention the source recordings themselves, create a recipe for sound reproduction that can be shifted one way or the other with the slightest change of ingredients. This makes it nearly impossible to definitively make statements that are universally valid among all with respect to any component's sound. Essentially, it always ends up revolving around a personal opinion. We all have plenty of those.

Saying a component is among the best is not saying a component is THE best. Personally, I do not think any group of audio enthusiasts can agree without exception on the superiority of one component over all others. None the less, there are many excellent audio components that remain highly respected. It is my opinion the McIntosh C1000C/P ranks well among the best.

Michael Fremer had this to say about the C1000 in Stereophile magazine; "The McIntosh C1000 combines ultralow noise and ultra low distortion with transparency, harmonic completeness, and, thanks to its ultralow noise floor, resolution of low level-level microdynamics that is unprecedented in my experience. It delivered unrivaled image specificity without unnatural edge, layer on layer of detail, transient speed and purity without sounding hyper, and delicacy and suppleness without sounding soft and soupy." I am in complete agreement with Michael's comments.

Hi Dan,

Of course subjectivity reigns in our hobby. You will notice that I stated "in my opinion".
This is just my opinion. Based on my experience of various preamps and power amps. For my sole and only "taste".
I lived 2 happy years with the C1000P. But I got at least 5 preamps that are just better sounding to my ears, and by a significant margin. They are the CJ Premier LS17, the GAT, the Shindos Giscours and Monbrison and the Manley 300B Neo Classic.
So the C1000P may well be among the best preamps ever made. I agree with that. But the Pantheon of my ears chose other pieces.
That's not to say that any music lover will think like me. I just stated my experience.
As I said, I spent two beautiful years with the C1000P. But after these two years I got bored.
I just have no other words. The music was always sounding the same. I do not mean that the C1000 is colored. But to me it is not as full, as rich as some others.
I live with the Shindo Giscours since 6 years now.
Not only I did not loose my passion for it. But it still amazes me each time I turn it on. I know that you feel the same with your C1000P.
Best or not, that is the only thing that matters.

Jerome.......I have followed your system(s) evolution with great interest through the years. You navigated another path that has certainly pleased many people. It is clear you are happy with your choices. Like you with your Shindo gear, I too have lived with my McIntosh C1000C/P for years, eight to be exact. During that time it has driven many different amplifiers, stereo and mono MC275's, MC352, MC501's, MC452, MC601's, and now four years driving my MC2301's. The C1000C/P never ceases to amaze me. Something else worthy of attention, it is flawless in its operation and has never caused me one single problem. We both have audio gear we revere and look forward to enjoying. You are correct, that's the only thing that matters. Here's wishing you many years of audio bliss with your fine sound systems.

Originally Posted by jdandy

Jerome.......I have followed your system(s) evolution with great interest through the years. You navigated another path that has certainly pleased many people. It is clear you are happy with your choices. Like you with your Shindo gear, I too have lived with my McIntosh C1000C/P for years, eight to be exact. During that time it has driven many different amplifiers, stereo and mono MC275's, MC352, MC501's, MC452, MC601's, and now four years driving my MC2301's. The C1000C/P never ceases to amaze me. Something else worthy of attention, it is flawless in its operation and has never caused me one single problem. We both have audio gear we revere and look forward to enjoying. You are correct, that's the only thing that matters. Here's wishing you many years of audio bliss with your fine sound systems.

Hi Dan,

I see time and time again how the synergy between preamp and amp from the same company can make a huge difference in sound quality. The fact that you drove six different McIntosh amplifiers with the C1000C/P and got great sound each time bears this out. It must be one fine preamp!

Best,
Ken

Originally Posted by Alpinist

Hi Dan,

I see time and time again how the synergy between preamp and amp from the same company can make a huge difference in sound quality. The fact that you drove six different McIntosh amplifiers with the C1000C/P and got great sound each time bears this out. It must be one fine preamp!

Best,
Ken

Ken.......I sure think so. The C1000C/P and the MC2301's will be here for life.

Joe.......My apology. I did not mean for my initial post about my preamp to side track your original post and thread. There are so many other premium preamplifiers to talk about.

Hi Dan,

Please don't worry, I am taking this all in and love the discussion that flows from my initial post. I could easily go for a C1100 and maybe even MC2301's. I am a little all over the place. I love to see everyone's opinion here so I actually encourage threads getting a little OT because I learn so much.

Originally Posted by jdandy

Joe.......My apology.I did not mean for my initial post about my preamp to side track your original post and thread. There are so many other premium preamplifiers to talk about.

Originally Posted by joeinid

Hi Dan,

I could easily go for a C1100 and maybe even MC2301's.

Big Mac attack?

Might be an itch that I need to scratch.

Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

Big Mac attack?

Joe.......This is an itch that deserves to be scratched.


THIS







+ two of these






DONE!

I'm working on it. Beautiful pairing for sure. I wish they had a solid state version of the C1100

I would love to hear your Ayre... bet they sound special ... that or Audio Research would be my end game pieces...

Randy,

The Ayre combo is out of this world great. I don't need anything else, but old habits die hard.

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

I would love to hear your Ayre... bet they sound special ... that or Audio Research would be my end game pieces...

You crack me up ... so if you got to scratch an itch.... how about a wonderful classic ARC VT50, recently refurbished and retubed at the ARC factory AND an amazing meticulously hand built by Nelson Pass himself, First Watt F6. I mean what a combo ...

So did I peek your interest ... scratch that itch ...

I don't want that itch turninig into a major infection.

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

You crack me up ... so if you got to scratch an itch.... how about a wonderful classic ARC VT50, recently refurbished and retubed at the ARC factory AND an amazing meticulously hand built by Nelson Pass himself, First Watt F6. I mean what a combo ...

So did I peek your interest ... scratch that itch ...