Thread: Niagara 7000 vs Denali 6000T - my experience

Hey Justin - that's great news! I would love to hear the Denali in my system.

Did you see this test? I use my Entech as well. You either have good clean AC or you don't. The Entech doesn't lie. The funniest part is when I take it to friends places who think they have good clean power and then they hear the crap that's on their lines.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6f1kwyZbM8


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I had both in my system also. Both are great products and depending on ones system and incoming power etc. I can see somebody liking either one depending on the system.

Originally Posted by Justin

After living with the 7000 for a week, Paul swapped it out for the Denali yesterday. I was shocked at my reaction. Compared to the 7000, the Denali was immediately more open. There was more space. There was more detail. Much bigger soundstage. I could hear the instruments in their right places instead of a more unified sound. More detail - but not cold. To me, significantly more neutral, transparent, musical.

Am I crazy for preferring 6000T to 7000? Do I just prefer the Shunyata "house" sound to Audioquest? Do I need to have my hearing checked with an audiologist ASAP? Flame away if you must!


Justin

First off IMHO, you are never crazy for believing what your ears tell you and what you like for your system regardless of what others may say, what hype is on the street for a product you choose not to get, or even what any "professional reviewer/expert" has to say. Always use your ears and select what you think is right for your system and tastes. I think it is great that you stand by your experience and listening instead of going with what others may say or what hype surrounds a given product. So, no, you are not crazy at all in my book..

When my wife and I chose the Niagara 7000, we also compared it to other units (including your Hydra), but for our tastes we preferred the Niagara. I do firmly agree with what theprofessor stated elsewhere on this thread that both are great products and our choice of the Niagara came down to what it did in our system vs. the Hydra. On a side note, it did (to our ears in our system) significantly improve over our old Equi=Tech 2Q) and thus was a reason for us purchase it.

Thanks for sharing your feedback on the Audioquest and Shunyata power products.

This year, I switched to a Shunyata Triton V2 / Typhon from a PS Audio P10 after listening and finding similar differences between those products, as you did between the 2 that you demoed.

Justin,

I haven't had a chance to try the Niagra 7000, but like you, the Denali 6000 had a very significant and positive effect in my system.

I think the Niagara is a great product, but as in PS Audio case, as soon as you mess with the electricity you get into murky waters IMHO. And well yes, I am obviously a Shunyata guy - guilty as charged .


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Originally Posted by Justin

Over the past 4 years or so, I have upgraded from my initial system and had reached a point where I felt that power really needed to be addressed. Current system is Rockport Atria speakers, VAC Signature SE preamp, Hegel H30 amp, Berkeley Ref DAC, Kubala cabling... I had been using a Shunyata Venom PS8 for the past few years (going into a dedicated 20 amp circuit). Really like the Rockports but spend way too much time trying to figure out what my next speaker is.

Anyways, with the help of Paul Chambers at Goodwin's High End, one of the nicest guys I've met in audio, I have been able to demo at home the Niagara 7000 and Denali 6000T in my system over the past 10 days. I expected to like Niagara more, based on all the feedback I've heard and buzz about it.

I initially had my VAC preamp plugged into a high current bay on the 7000... as soon as I moved it to one of the many lower current spots it sounded great. Felt like a layer had been peeled off... among other improvements, noticeably better bass. Clearer, easier, fuller. I assumed this would be the easy winner.

After living with the 7000 for a week, Paul swapped it out for the Denali yesterday. I was shocked at my reaction. Compared to the 7000, the Denali was immediately more open. There was more space. There was more detail. Much bigger soundstage. I could hear the instruments in their right places instead of a more unified sound. More detail - but not cold. To me, significantly more neutral, transparent, musical.

We went back and forth. A to B for a bit. For both of us, it was clear as day which we preferred. The Denali did not seem to add or change anything in the music -- I would describe it as feeling totally neutral, just dramatically lowering the noise floor and letting me hear everything better. When going back to the Niagara, it felt like listening to music that was more compressed... I absolutely was left with the impression of a darker background, a quieter system with the Denali.

So now I sit listening to Neil Young - Harvest Moon on a Saturday morning, enjoying the 6000T.

Am I crazy for preferring 6000T to 7000? Do I just prefer the Shunyata "house" sound to Audioquest? Do I need to have my hearing checked with an audiologist ASAP? Flame away if you must!

Maybe it's my specific system that is favoring the Denali... I don't know.

The good news to me is that my fear is always leaving a demo utterly confused about a preference. In this instance, there was no doubt about preference. Quieter, more detail, more musical to me, less altering of the music... it sounds tremendous. Big thanks to Paul and Goodwin's for giving me plenty of time to hear each of these on my own turf.

Justin

Hi Justin,

Thanks for your review of the two power conditioners. What make and model power cords did you use for your comparison?

Thanks,
Ken

cool experience, thanks for sharing. like the new form factor of the Denali quite a bit, myself

One big difference as I see it, is that the AudioQuest has a 90amp power reserve for dynamic spikes. I don't see any power current reservoir on the Denali.

Also, from speaking with Denali users, many are plugging the amps into the wall, and the rest of the gear into the Denali, therefore negating the principle of common/star grounding.

I would love to compare the AQ1000 to one of the Denali's. That would be a level playing field since the 1000 doesn't have the 90am power reserve bank.

Thoughts?


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One big difference as I see it, is that the AudioQuest has a 90amp power reserve for dynamic spikes. I don't see any power current reservoir on the Denali. Am I wrong?


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Originally Posted by Mike

One big difference as I see it, is that the AudioQuest has a 90amp power reserve for dynamic spikes. I don't see any power current reservoir on the Denali. Am I wrong?


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I don't see where the Denali stores any power but then the Denali doesn't limit current and passes a full 20 amps via the lower connections and a full 15 via the remaining connections.

I have been auditioning one in my system for about 10 days now. I contacted my dealer today to inform him I will be keeping the unit. I have had my Momentum's connected to the unit and just returned from my other dealer with a 15' Transparent PC so that I can also connect my pre-amp. I have been going back an forth between a Transparent connection to the Denali with Shunyata's Alpha HC. It is TBD which I will end up using.

Two different ways to get your equipment better power. Both are good products.

My $.02. Without a battery pack or way to store power like big capacitors for very short needs, I don't think there is a way to get more power than from the wall plug itself. That would be a perpetual motion generator. Transformers are not 100% efficient, you loose power with them. So physics aside, it seems like the 90amp power reserve spec has some holes in it unless the wall plug has 91 amps.

Again - using my ears - both are worth auditioning and who cares about specs.

Originally Posted by the professor

Two different ways to get your equipment better power. Both are good products.

My $.02. Without a battery pack or way to store power like big capacitors for very short needs, I don't think there is a way to get more power than from the wall plug itself. That would be a perpetual motion generator. Transformers are not 100% efficient, you loose power with them. So physics aside, it seems like the 90amp power reserve spec has some holes in it unless the wall plug has 91 amps.

Again - using my ears - both are worth auditioning and who cares about specs.

Hi Jock,

I think the Niagara 7000's output is 90 amps peak current and 20 amps continuous current in the high-power outlets.

Best,
Ken

Originally Posted by Alpinist

Hi Jock,

I think the Niagara 7000's output is 90 amps peak current and 20 amps continuous current in the high-power outlets.

Best,
Ken

That's exactly right. You can see on the internal pics a large "tube".


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Originally Posted by La Dolce Vita

I have the same Entech noise analyzer and use it often. The Monster guys used to use this device to demonstrate the noise reduction of their units years ago. Today, Shunyata has videos posted on their website using it to demonstrate the efficacy of the Denali in this same regard. If you can get your hands on one do so - it's a fun little toy. From a practical standpoint however it measures some line noise but perhaps not all - there are several different types of noise. I can tell you whether I use the Audience, Shunyata, etc, the meter almost always reads "0" or very close to it. To me, it is not just how one marker on line noise reads but all about that magical sound experienced that Justin was talking about in his listening experience and review.


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I have the entech line noise analyzer. The 7000 measures 0.00

Originally Posted by La Dolce Vita

I agree with Jock. Again, different people will prefer different gear. There is not one that outperforms all others necessarily. This said, while a nice feature to have, at least in a good number of cases the Audioquest 90 amp power reserve spec may indeed be redundant. It's only for milliseconds. Good power amps have these integrated into their power supplies as well. For me, it all comes back to the sound...


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Absolutely. I would love to compare the Denali to the AQ. I wouldn't be surprised if one sounded better in one system and the other sounded better in another. It's all about the system. Both seem to deliver great results. Clean power is so important. The thing to do is to compare both in your system since there are two different approaches. Did you do that? Then you'll know for sure.

You never had the 7000 in your system? So...you don't know. It might have been better. And 90 amp available current is never a bad thing. If you're using a device without a power reserve, and you begin to add up the amp draw from each device plugged into the system, you are quickly choking the system with only 12 amps available (15 amp circuit) or 15 amps available (20 amp circuit). That's why a 90 amp buffer is so important in most systems.

I would say this, if the total load of the system is under 12/15 amps, rock on! If you're using Class A amps which store power, rock on. But if you're exceeding 12/15 amps or you're using Class A/B amps which draw the power from the power source as needed, such as for dynamic peeks, then a 90 amp reserve is crucial.

In your case Andy, with your Class A amps, I think you made a good choice since a 90 amp reserve wouldn't have provided any additional benefit. So save the difference between the Denali and AQ7000 and rock on.

Originally Posted by La Dolce Vita

True! As you'll appreciate it's a process. I will... just takes time and money is all. Thanks for the info Mike. By the way, in light of your moving to the Audioquest 7000, how/where are you utilizing your famed APC units?


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The APC's are on static display. . The 7000 in my system was a game changer. But I still would love to compare it to the Denali. If you've read everything I've done with respect to AC, I'm after absolute power!

Originally Posted by Mike

You never had the 7000 in your system? So...you don't know. It might have been better. And 90 amp available current is never a bad thing. If you're using a device without a power reserve, and you begin to add up the amp draw from each device plugged into the system, you are quickly choking the system with only 12 amps available (15 amp circuit) or 15 amps available (20 amp circuit). That's why a 90 amp buffer is so important in most systems.

I would say this, if the total load of the system is under 12/15 amps, rock on! If you're using Class A amps which store power, rock on. But if you're exceeding 12/15 amps or you're using Class A/B amps which draw the power from the power source as needed, such as for dynamic peeks, then a 90 amp reserve is crucial.

In your case Andy, with your Class A amps, I think you made a good choice since a 90 amp reserve wouldn't have provided any additional benefit. So save the difference between the Denali and AQ7000 and rock on.

Mike, since you have had the APC's, you have had the ability to check the current draw (watts) of a system connected to it. What is the highest that you have noted? I ask because of your quote above. In my system (SET listed below) I only draw 326 watts in full tilt. (approx 3 amps). And I have a total of 16 tubes glowing.
10 amps or more of current draw would, as a byproduct, create a great amount of heat.
As per the 90 amps available, as has been previously stated, this must be by storage from a capacitor. The power supplies in our equipment usually have very large capacitor banks to handle dynamic peaks.
Having not had the opportunity to hear either unit, my comments are generic in nature.

Originally Posted by jadedavid

Mike, since you have had the APC's, you have had the ability to check the current draw (watts) of a system connected to it. What is the highest that you have noted? I ask because of your quote above. In my system (SET listed below) I only draw 326 watts in full tilt. (approx 3 amps). And I have a total of 16 tubes glowing.
10 amps or more of current draw would, as a byproduct, create a great amount of heat.
As per the 90 amps available, as has been previously stated, this must be by storage from a capacitor. The power supplies in our equipment usually have very large capacitor banks to handle dynamic peaks.
Having not had the opportunity to hear either unit, my comments are generic in nature.

It all depends on what gear I'm circling in and out. My SET wouldn't draw hardly anything. Big Bryston, Soulution, Mc, Pass X series, etc. - different story. The one thing I did find was that the Vitus sounded best going direct into the wall with the APC. But when I got the AQ 7000, it was a game changer. It went up a whole 'nother level plugged into the AQ 7000. In fact, it was the Vitus SS-103 with the SL-102 mk2 and the Lumin S1 which made me buy the 7000 in the first place after my rep brought it down for me to demo. I couldn't believe the A:B comparison.

I think that the newest products from the various manufacturers are getting much better with the power conditioners. My experience is much like Mikes. When I have tried other conditioners be it Shunyata, Ansuz, Accuphase, AG, Audience etc., I always had found that my amps were better going directly into the wall.

When I tried the Denali 2000t (2 outlets), I found that it was better going through the Denali than straight into the wall.

Originally Posted by the professor

I think that the newest products from the various manufacturers are getting much better with the power conditioners. My experience is much like Mikes. When I have tried other conditioners be it Shunyata, Ansuz, Accuphase, AG, Audience etc., I always had found that my amps were better going directly into the wall.

When I tried the Denali 2000t (2 outlets), I found that it was better going through the Denali than straight into the wall.

Professor,

That's been my experience as well. My amps sound better plugged into the Denali 6000 than directly into the wall.


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After spending 2 hours on the phone with Grant today, I am thoroughly convinced the passive approach to current will work better in my highly sensitive system and I look forward to trying a 6000 and pair of 2000's with Sigma PC's in my system.


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It will be fun to see how it sounds.

Hi Justin,

When you did your home audition of the Niagara 7000, did you plug all your components including the amplifier into the power conditioner? In the Stereophile review, they didn't initially plug in the Dartzeel preamp and it compromised the overall sound quality.

Also, did you plug your amp into the Denali 6000T?

Thanks,
Ken

Same for me!

I have not had the pleasure of trying out the Niagara 7000 in my system. I have a great deal of respect for the designer and manufacturer. I'm am less familiar with it so I make no comment about its performance.

I have had the Shunyata Denali 6000/T (tower) in my system for about three weeks now.

So what is it exactly that the Denali is doing?

If you look on the front of the Denali brochure it states "listen to the sound of silence". It is a component that in my view is all about noise reduction.

Our musical enjoyment is reduced by electrical line noise contamination. This can be either from Differential or Common Mode line noise. Differential noise is created by our audio components that feedback pollution onto the mains. Common mode noise is introduced by RFI, EMI, amplitude modulation, wireless communications and other sources.

I believe that the Dinali takes a more passive approach into reducing many of these forms of noise.

I think that the first four outlets reduce many forms of these types of noise by more than 60 dB in the frequencies that are easiest for us to hear.

60 dB is huge!

Other power conditioners that I am familiar with only reduce this noise by only 10 to 20 dB.

The result is a much lower noise floor. My equipment has a much easier time in resolving individual instruments and voices. I don't usually listen at higher volumes. I want to save what hearing I have left. I normally listen to music in the 75 dB range with 80 dB peaks. On those occasions that I listen to larger scale music such as orchestral selections with natural wide dynamic swings, my trusty decibel meter may peak at 95 dB's now.

In addition to hearing many of the things described by others on this thread with the Denali, I have much less auditory distress when the music crescendos towards double or triple fortissimos.

The Dinali is leading to longer intervals of listing. There is "space between the notes". Digital hash is removed. The noise floor in my system is as low as I have ever heard.

I am amazed at how well it works. It is easily the best ancillary component I have added to my system this year. I may be buying a second one over time.

Originally Posted by parkcaka

Thanks everyone for sharing information and experiences. I have a Triton. I just couldn't find the exact answer to the question "What is the difference between Triton and Denali?" Is Denali a smaller Triton or is it something different all together?


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The Denali line is new technology that was developed to reduce noise for medical devices. It is all about reducing measurable noise. It turns out that this approach is just as beneficial for audio sound quality as it is for medical devices. From those I've spoken with, the Denali line is a major breakthrough in power line conditioning and rejecting noise from other system components.

Ken

Originally Posted by hieukm

What do you guys think of plugging the Denali into Isolation transformer such as Torus or it should be use on its own straight from the wall?

On its own straight from the wall.

Ken

I had the pleasure to listen Le Roy's system a couple weeks ago and he did demo the 6000T. I was floored with the difference. The amount of detail and layers of resolution was simply amazing.

+1

Originally Posted by Alpinist

On its own straight from the wall.

Ken

Here is a blind test of the Denali 6000 vs. Niagara 7000. Conditioner #1 starts at 0:08 and Conditioner #2 starts at 3:11. If you listen to the video before reading the comments, it will be a totally blind test. Please post your preference on this thread. The results have yet to be revealed, so please be patient!

Best,
Ken

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddJQDnT4cUI

I think that I like the second test or conditioner 2 more than the first. Seemed a little less bright, smoother and a little fuller. I'll try again later on my computer and see if I still feel the same way.

Originally Posted by joeinid

I think that I like the second test or conditioner 2 more than the first. Seemed a little less bright, smoother and a little fuller. I'll try again later on my computer and see if I still feel the same way.

Hi Joe,

I totally agree with you on all three of your points. IMO, the improvement on the second one was not subtle.

Best,
Ken