Pass INT-60 & INT-250 Integrated Amps

**wizard** · January 4, 2015, 11:00 AM

New products at CES - INT-60 $9'000 and INT-250 $12'000.

**watercourse** · January 4, 2015, 01:20 PM

So these are both single chassis? Wonder how they are able to do that. Wonder even more how the INT-60 sounds!

**watercourse** · January 4, 2015, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by rbbert

Something about the 60 is hard to figure; it's too small and inexpensive to be a 60.8A series amp, but it's significantly more expensive than the current INT-150. Maybe it's the integrated equivalent of the 30.8A?

Agreed. Maybe the "60" is for peak output in Class A, and therefore based on the XA30.8 as you suggest. That would make sense in terms of form factor and price.

Or they needed to name it something to distinguish it from the INT-30A.

Still want to hear it regardless.

**watercourse** · January 4, 2015, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

I'm guessing 60 watt class AB?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The XA30.5 provides about 57 peak watts in Class A, then up to ~90 watts in AB (8 ohm, up to about ~130 wpc to 4 ohms). The .8 is described as providing more Class A watts (from the Pass literature, nominally 61 wpc), but no independent measurements yet for when it hits 1% distortion. I'd assume it's similar to the 30.5.

**rbbert** · January 4, 2015, 05:37 PM

It's not. One big difference between the A.5 series and the A.8 series is the headroom above maximum Class A watts. For the A.5 it is 6 dB; for the A.8 closer to 1.5 or 2 dB. We should know more soon; I'm guessing that it is the A30.8 integrated and the name is to distinguish it from the INT-30.

**wizard** · January 4, 2015, 06:10 PM

Based on Pass Labs’ lauded INT-30A, the 60-watt INT-60 Integrated Amplifier provides wattage with finesse and delicacy surpassing its predecessor, and works best with speakers of 87dB efficiency or greater.

The INT-60 builds upon the INT-30A’s legendary “You are there” soundstage, offering spectacular realism, even with difficult speaker loads such as electrostatics or planars. The INT-60 features the same power supply and output stages, along with the iconic glowing meter, as found on Pass Labs’ Point 8 amplifiers. The new model features Direct Access buttons for the four inputs on the faceplate, a digital level display, plus a Volume Control knob and Mute button. On the back are four line-level inputs, a line-level output, and two pairs of Furutech speaker binding posts.

The new INT-250 ups the wattage from the INT-150’s 150 watts to 250 watts per channel. The INT-250 is optimized for greater versatility with speaker loads of 86dB efficiency or less. Like the INT-60, the INT- 250 features the same power supply and output stages, along with the iconic glowing meter as found on Pass Labs’ Point 8 amplifiers. It too features four line-level inputs, a line-level output, and two pairs of Furutech speaker binding posts. As with the INT-60, there are Direct Access buttons for the four inputs on the faceplate and a digital level display, in addition to a Volume Control knob and a Mute button.

**watercourse** · January 4, 2015, 06:42 PM

If anyone is going to CES and sees/hears this, please report back!

**watercourse** · January 13, 2015, 01:34 AM

Pass Labs launch INT-60 and headphone amplifiers at CES 2015 | DAR__KO

**watercourse** · January 13, 2015, 01:43 AM

CES 2015 New Integrateds

**rbbert** · January 13, 2015, 09:05 AM

More mis-information than new information in that write-up. Oh well, not surprising from a static show report, I suppose.

**Mike** · January 13, 2015, 09:41 AM

I spoke with Pass yesterday about these two beautiful new integrated amps. The specs are a little light right now because they have not finished measuring things.

What I do know is this:

The new integrated amps are:
INT-60: 60 Watts and $9,000 MSRP
INT-250: 250 Watts and $12,000 MSRP

The INT-250 is definitely an AB design. As for the INT-60, stay tuned.

As a side note, they are very proud of their new headphone amp. They said they were able to achieve the .8 sonic signature in a headphone amp.

**Mike** · January 13, 2015, 09:53 AM

I started a new thread for these new integrated amps.

**rbbert** · January 13, 2015, 09:55 AM

The INT-60 is the integrated version of the 30.8A basic amp.

**Mike** · January 13, 2015, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by rbbert

The INT-60 is the integrated version of the 30.8A basic amp.

Not exactly. Stay tuned.

**Mike** · January 13, 2015, 10:12 AM

Moved all INT-60/INT-250 discussions here.

**rbbert** · January 13, 2015, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

Not exactly. Stay tuned.

True; I should have said "appears to be".

**Moby** · January 13, 2015, 04:28 PM

Now I've got to decide between the INT-60, INT-250 or the NuVista 800 to drive my Cremona M Floorstanders. This is a nice dilema to have and its nice to see all of these presumably superb integrated amps show up on the market in the last few months.

From Digital Audio Review (sorry, I don't have enough posts to post link):

Pass Labs launch INT-60 and headphone amplifiers at CES 2015

John Darko

Rugged glory. My direct experience with Pass Labs amplifiers sums to zero but Nelson Pass has a well-cemented reputation as one of the world’s finest amplifier designes. He’s the amp designer’s amp designer – that’s how Hugh Dean of Melbourne’s NASKA/Aspen tells it. Zu Audio’s Sean Casey is also a BIG fan. Michael Lavorgna runs the most excellent Audiostream Website and is also now a staff writer for Stereophile. Over dinner on Thursday night his enthusiasm spilled big for the Pass Labs INT-60 integrated amplifier, more than enough to have me lock in a visit to the Pass Labs room on the 34th floor of the Venetian Hotel the following morning. Of course, Pass himself wasn’t in attendance but Lavorgna might be interested in the new INT-60 integrated that doubles down on his own amplifier’s 30wpc…but without doubling up on price. The INT-30 sells for US$6000 whilst its newer sibling will retail for US$9000.

To spell it out in more simplistic terms: the INT-60 will drive 60 Class A watts into an 8 Ohm load. And simplicity is Pass’ thing; the INT-60 loads in only two gain stages – affording “improved gain management” according to representative Wayne Colburn – whilst borrowing the output stage and power supply from the Point 8 designs. The circuit is fully balanced. Cooling fins loom large on each side and out back we note 4 x line-level inputs (balanced and single ended), pre-amplifier outputs, a line-level output and Furutech loudspeaker binding posts. Much marketing noise is also being made of the front panel’s glowing meter. If there’s one thing audiophiles love it’s a glowing meter. An no, I’m not being sarcastic.

The INT-60 is assembled entirely in California and will be available “in the next couple of months”, according to Colburn. For those with more cash at their disposal or those with greater power needs (or both), the similarly new INT-250 will sell for US$12000.

**Mike** · January 13, 2015, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by Moby

Now I've got to decide between the INT-60, INT-250 or the NuVista 800 to drive my Cremona M Floorstanders. This is a nice dilema to have and its nice to see all of these presumably superb integrated amps show up on the market in the last few months.

100% Pass. IF the INT-60 sounds like the 60.8, I would go that way. Pass and SF is a fabulous synergy.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**watercourse** · January 13, 2015, 04:38 PM

My sources have told me that the INT-60 will provide 60wpc, not peak wpc. This would make it not based on the standard XA30.8, and also not based on the 60.8.

I further asked about weight differences between the INT-30A and INT-60, but this wasn't divulged. Although one of the articles I posted reported an increase in weight due to design changes.

**rbbert** · January 13, 2015, 06:17 PM

I'll be very interested to read and hear about final specs etc., but based on the physical layout and price I'll repeat that this really appears to be the integrated version of the 30.8A. It's too small and inexpensive to differ significantly. Although there could certainly be minor differences they would almost have to be minor.

**WayneC** · January 14, 2015, 12:58 AM

The Int 60 is 30+ Watts class a so your speakers will be 100 dB in class a if they are average. The preamp section has adjustable gain if you need it. It does weigh more with better heat sinking and more power supply. We can't quite get 60 stereo Watts into a mono package yet but Desmond did get the meter.

**joeinid** · January 14, 2015, 01:15 AM

Wayne, welcome to the forum. Thank you so much for joining!!!!! I love my Pass gear!

**joeinid** · January 14, 2015, 01:18 AM

Nice!

Originally Posted by WayneC

The Int 60 is 30+ Watts class a so your speakers will be 100 dB in class a if they are average. The preamp section has adjustable gain if you need it. It does weigh more with better heat sinking and more power supply. We can't quite get 60 stereo Watts into a mono package yet but Desmond did get the meter.

**Mike** · January 14, 2015, 08:23 AM

Thanks for joining Wayne. Great to see you here. I love my Pass gear too!

**Myles B. Astor** · January 14, 2015, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by WayneC

The Int 60 is 30+ Watts class a so your speakers will be 100 dB in class a if they are average. The preamp section has adjustable gain if you need it. It does weigh more with better heat sinking and more power supply. We can't quite get 60 stereo Watts into a mono package yet but Desmond did get the meter.

Hi Wayne!

**MDP** · January 14, 2015, 10:28 AM

Welcome to AS Wayne !!

Pass gear is great stuff.

**Mike** · May 6, 2015, 07:08 PM

The new INT-60 will be $9000 MSRP

(note, the new INT-250 will be $12,000 MSRP).

**rbbert** · May 6, 2015, 08:02 PM

I have an offer for an in-home trial of the INT-60 starting tomorrow, but I think I'm going to pass; too many other priorities right now

**Audioseduction** · May 6, 2015, 10:27 PM

Welcome Wayne! I've spoken to you a few times over the phone in the past. Pass is the gear for me!

**rbbert** · June 11, 2015, 07:20 PM

Next week I will have an opportunity for a 2 wk home audition for one of these integrateds, to see if I want to replace my INT-150. I'm leaning towards the INT-60, which even though it has a little less power than my current amp actually has more gain (as does the INT-250, of course) and I'm not sure I need the extra power. Remember the INT-60's amp section is basically the XA-30.8. Which one should I choose?

**a.wayne** · June 11, 2015, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by rbbert

Next week I will have an opportunity for a 2 wk home audition for one of these integrateds, to see if I want to replace my INT-150. I'm leaning towards the INT-60, which even though it has a little less power than my current amp actually has more gain (as does the INT-250, of course) and I'm not sure I need the extra power. Remember the INT-60's amp section is basically the XA-30.8. Which one should I choose?

Vote for the INT-250

The Most power , dynamic compression thingy ............

The 150 clips at 245 watts into 4 ohms , your speakers are rated at 90db/2.83v@6ohm/M or 88db when compared to nominal 8 ohm speaker. If your listening distance is 4 M then figure on 79db/2.83v without room gain, you will need all 250 and more for clean dynamic passages.

looking at the graph from the bench test , the sweet spot is actually 100 watts RMS , IME this is the min power i would ( INT-150) recommend for your setup , cant see how going to a smaller amp would be beneficial ....

Regards...

**Mike** · June 11, 2015, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by rbbert

Next week I will have an opportunity for a 2 wk home audition for one of these integrateds, to see if I want to replace my INT-150. I'm leaning towards the INT-60, which even though it has a little less power than my current amp actually has more gain (as does the INT-250, of course) and I'm not sure I need the extra power. Remember the INT-60's amp section is basically the XA-30.8. Which one should I choose?

I vote for the INT-60.

**rbbert** · June 11, 2015, 08:05 PM

FWIW, Desmond Harrington last week at THE Show suggested the INT-60 for my speakers and room size (about 3200-3300 cubic feet). The INT-60 should have about 100 watts "peak power" (probably a bit more before clipping) into 6 ohms. Until I spoke with Desmond I was leaning toward the 250, but now I'm reconsidering.

**a.wayne** · June 11, 2015, 08:25 PM

I'm sure you will be able to decide when you try it, how far do you sit from the speakers? You might find this interesting ...

or not ..

Bob Cordell :

Most amplifiers have dynamic headroom of 0.5 to 3 dB. The PAPD will quickly give you an idea of this. When you just clip the amplifier you are using, you'll see the dynamic headroom power displayed. Compare this to the rated continuous sinewave power and you get a dB ratio that represents the dynamic headroom capability of the amplifier on real music.

A variety of music was used for this demonstration, but the musical cut with the highest crest factor we have found so far is Rickie Lee Jones' "Ghetto of my Mind" on her Flying Cowboys CD. Play this cut at even remotely realistic levels and monitor it with the Peak/Average Power Display and you will re-think how much power your amplifier needs to have. Of course, most music (unfortunately) is not this "bad" because of compression often added in the recoding process for the primary target market: car CD players and boom boxes.
This demonstration was a real "Wow" for the attendees. The Rickie Lee Jones (RLJ) cut was played at realistic, but certainly not unpleasant, levels in the relatively small hotel exhibit room on speakers with an estimated sensitivity of about 89 dB. The average power typically read 1-2 Watts, while the power on peaks often topped 250 Watts (the power display monitored only one channel, so these numbers should be interpreted as Watts per channel). On this cut, most peaks occurred with an aggressive "thwack" to a snare drum positioned dead center.
While it is true that the RLJ track has an unusually large dynamic range, this data still suggests that many listeners may be clipping their amplifiers more often than they think. This may especially be the case for those with tube amplifiers who are not using extraordinarily efficient speakers. The amount of clipping, and the way in which amplifiers handle clipping, may account for more of the perceived differences in amplifier sound than we realize. As an aside, it would be nice if all amplifiers had accurate and fast clipping indicators. It might be a real eye-opener. If your amplifier is clipping, have you left the realm of high fidelity?

http://www.cordellaudio.com/he2007/show_report.shtml

Personally i never go down ...... forward ever ...

**rbbert** · June 11, 2015, 09:18 PM

It's pretty unusual for any commercially released music to have a peak (even one) more than about 23-26 dB above average rms volume, so that would be what, about 100-200 x average power needed for peaks in those cases. In fact, even on excellent sounding classical music it's more like 17-18 dB above average, with correspondingly less power difference. Almost no non-classical music has peaks running more than 17-18 dB, and even that is extremely rare IME.

**a.wayne** · June 11, 2015, 09:38 PM

I cant agree on that regarding crest factor ( you must be using mostly digital to feel this way) and the recording in question is nothing special , as a matter of fact my experience over the years mirrors Cordell and for the most part when individuals select amplifiers , they are really selecting how an amplifier sounds while clipping and of course recovery, since most hi-fi systems are under powered .

With your 60 watt amp you will see clipping at 12- 15db peaks , with Cordells example...

Please pay attn to the power vs distortion curve, i posted earlier, remember the power is at 1%thd, at this point the amp is in run away distortion that's why you see the fast rise, this is what gives, it the "edge" or "hardness" some complain of. With toobs, this harshness takes place higher up the thd scale so no surprise when people claim toobs play louder with less power , the harmonic distortion trail is far more palatable than SS hard clipping .

An Easy experiment of power required for playback with live instruments , the next time you are playing at your usual listening level , have someone play an acoustic instrument , anything percussive, even an acoustic guitar , strum it or play along hitting the body, listen how much it takes over your system playing .

No accident or surprise to see those with high sensitivity Speakers starting to use larger amplifiers than in the past ....

Regards...

**a.wayne** · June 11, 2015, 09:45 PM

Originally Posted by rbbert

Almost no non-classical music has peaks running more than 17-18 dB, and even that is extremely rare IME.

Play Eagles hotel California (CD) check the applause peak at the end .... many examples

**dlb2** · June 11, 2015, 09:48 PM

I vote for the INT-30A. Too bad that wasn't an option.

**rbbert** · June 11, 2015, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by dlb2

I vote for the INT-30A. Too bad that wasn't an option.

You don't think the .8 series is better than the .5 series?

**rbbert** · June 11, 2015, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by a.wayne

Play Eagles hotel California (CD) check the applause peak at the end .... many examples

Which CD mastering? Is there applause on a studio recording?

The most dynamic Eagles recording I can find is the DVD "Hell Freezes Over" PCM track (16/48), which does have percussion notes in places that run about 20-22 dB above the average level (much higher than any applause).

**KeithR** · June 11, 2015, 11:11 PM

Trying both out seems wise. AZ recommends 50 watts on its website fwiw

**MDP** · June 11, 2015, 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by rbbert

Next week I will have an opportunity for a 2 wk home audition for one of these integrateds, to see if I want to replace my INT-150. I'm leaning towards the INT-60, which even though it has a little less power than my current amp actually has more gain (as does the INT-250, of course) and I'm not sure I need the extra power. Remember the INT-60's amp section is basically the XA-30.8. Which one should I choose?

That's a great question Rob, All I know, is with speakers like yours, you can't make a bad decision. I've been to Robert's place and heard them, great speakers!

**rbbert** · June 11, 2015, 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by KeithR

Trying both out seems wise. AZ recommends 50 watts on its website fwiw

True, although Robert frequently demo's them with 20 watt SET's at shows.

I can demo one without any cash outlay; I'm pretty sure if I wanted to do it twice I'd have to make a deposit, not undoable but nice not to have to do...

**a.wayne** · June 11, 2015, 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by rbbert

Which CD mastering? Is there applause on a studio recording?

The most dynamic Eagles recording I can find is the DVD "Hell Freezes Over" PCM track (16/48), which does have percussion notes in places that run about 20-22 dB above the average level (much higher than any applause).

That exceeds your previous comment ..

please chk, the applause is also extended ....

**a.wayne** · June 11, 2015, 11:26 PM

Originally Posted by rbbert

True, although Robert frequently demo's them with 20 watt SET's at shows.

I can demo one without any cash outlay; I'm pretty sure if I wanted to do it twice I'd have to make a deposit, not undoable but nice not to have to do...

recommended Min Power means nothing really, max power is more relevant..........

**kkfan** · June 11, 2015, 11:29 PM

Rob,

Please watch this video in its entirety of a demonstration of power requirements when playing different types of music. Granted, some extreme cases are used, but it helps in understanding the actual power drawn by speakers. There is no theory here, only practice.

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/s...4629#post34629

**KeithR** · June 11, 2015, 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by rbbert

True, although Robert frequently demo's them with 20 watt SET's at shows.

I can demo one without any cash outlay; I'm pretty sure if I wanted to do it twice I'd have to make a deposit, not undoable but nice not to have to do...

Btw Rob, what did you think of the new Dart integrated at the show?

**Mike** · June 12, 2015, 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by kkfan

Rob,

Please watch this video in its entirety of a demonstration of power requirements when playing different types of music. Granted, some extreme cases are used, but it helps in understanding the actual power drawn by speakers. There is no theory here, only practice.

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/s...4629#post34629

Thanks for sharing. That was a great video.

**a.wayne** · June 12, 2015, 08:11 AM

To copy everything i said , my god some people have no limits ....

**rbbert** · June 12, 2015, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by KeithR

Btw Rob, what did you think of the new Dart integrated at the show?

I don't think I actually heard it except as a DAC, despite it being present in at least 3 rooms?

Originally Posted by a.wayne

That exceeds your previous comment ..

please chk, the applause is also extended ....

I said it was very rare, and I'll stand by that. BTW, on the CD there is no peak more than about 10.5 dB above average, it's very compressed...

Thread: Pass INT-60 & INT-250 Integrated Amps

Pass INT-60 & INT-250 Integrated Amps

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