How well does your home stereo handle pipe organ music?

[JDBarrow]

I always thought that the gold standard in the ability of electronic equipment to faithfully reproduce music recordings was measured by how nicely pipe organ recordings sound. The pipe organ is the most awesome musical instrument with a very broad compass of pitch.

My pipe organ music does not sound so well through a VIPEX Bluetooth headset. Much muddiness or distortion. It sounded much better even on a cheap stereo record player we got in 1973 from Montgomery Ward with bookshelf speakers. The record label was Columbia Masterworks. This also leads me to believe that vinyl records produce superior performance over digital media for such revered timeless classical music by Johann Sebastain Bach.

I'm hoping my new Sony stereo receiver with 30" Dayton Audio tower speakers will play back Toccata and Fugue in F Major as performed by E. Power Biggs (ripped from CD to MP3) from a Bluetooth-paired digital source much better than my VIPEX BT headphones can or even better than the cheap Kenwood 6" speakers in my automobile. This piece has long pedal points in the intro and a very low bass register. It demands the ultimate in audio technology, I believe, to play back cleanly.

I want organ bass sounds that do not flap and treble pipe organ notes that aren't scratchy.

[Hear Here]

I don't think you can expect modest speakers to reproduce organ music well.

You need plenty of bass-producing drivers, particularly for the piece you mention. My own 100 Kg speakers have twin 12" drivers per channel and they pale into insignificance compared with the organ in my local cathedral. OK, I wouldn't want that organ in my home and my speakers offer a rendition that gets the crockery rattling and perhaps neighbours complaining, but I wouldn't bother with organ music from small speakers. There's plenty of other music they are much better equipped to deliver in a far more convincing way.

[JDBarrow]

I don't think you can expect modest speakers to reproduce organ music well.

You need plenty of bass-producing drivers, particularly for the piece you mention. My own 100 Kg speakers have twin 12" drivers per channel and they pale into insignificance compared with the organ in my local cathedral. OK, I wouldn't want that organ in my home and my speakers offer a rendition that gets the crockery rattling and perhaps neighbours complaining, but I wouldn't bother with organ music from small speakers. There's plenty of other music they are much better equipped to deliver in a far more convincing way.

Thank you, sir. One is going to be hard-pressed to get perfect organ reproduction with "consumer grade" audio equipment. I'm thinking that the digital media I have of Biggs' organ performances might not be of high-fidelity quality anyway. Back in the 1970's, Biggs' organ works played back from Columbia LP's or even 8-track tapes sounded excellent, to my ears anyway, even on most store-bought consumer-grade audio equipment at that time, whether on bookshelf speakers or 16-ohm floor speakers. I fear digital remastering of this old Columbia label classical music by Sony Music for today's digital music media may have corrupted the awesome factor present on the conventional analog recording media.

Columbia/CBS/Masterworks records was once the gold standard record label for classical music and even jazz music.

Perhaps if I were to rip my organ CD's to WAV format (vs MP3 with compression) there might be some fidelity improvements.

[Mr Peabody]

Are you serious? Here/s some thoughts in case you aren't joking. I am not meaning to offend or sound like a snob but mentioning bluetooth and mp3 in the same sentence with reproducing pipe organ is absurd.

Your amp needs good control of the driver/woofer to get good clean deep bass. A Sony receiver will not do that nor will Dayton speakers be able to handle it if it did.

Using mp3 may help your current system be able to play the track cleaner but only because a mp3 is only about 324 mbps at best where a CD is 1,411 mbps. So by converting to mp3 you have already defeated being able to reproduce the track in anything approaching convincing because you see you have removed much of the information in the original track.. However by converting to mp3 and removing much of the information may enable entry gear from distorting.

A pipe organ goes down to about 27 Hz to reproduce that convincing you need a high quality amp with power and control, and speakers capable of approaching that low frequency. You have to move a lot of air to feel 27 Hz.

Dynamic range is the measure of the range between the loudest and quietest point in a track. Compression reduces that dynamic range.

The best move you can make with keeping with your current gear would be to add a subwoofer and stop using mp3's. A decent subwoofer should play lower and better handle the low frequencies you are trying to reproduce.

[JDBarrow]

Are you serious? Here/s some thoughts in case you aren't joking. I am not meaning to offend or sound like a snob but mentioning bluetooth and mp3 in the same sentence with reproducing pipe organ is absurd.

Your amp needs good control of the driver/woofer to get good clean deep bass. A Sony receiver will not do that nor will Dayton speakers be able to handle it if it did.

Using mp3 may help your current system be able to play the track cleaner but only because a mp3 is only about 324 mbps at best where a CD is 1,411 mbps. So by converting to mp3 you have already defeated being able to reproduce the track in anything approaching convincing because you see you have removed much of the information in the original track.. However by converting to mp3 and removing much of the information may enable entry gear from distorting.

A pipe organ goes down to about 27 Hz to reproduce that convincing you need a high quality amp with power and control, and speakers capable of approaching that low frequency. You have to move a lot of air to feel 27 Hz.

Dynamic range is the measure of the range between the loudest and quietest point in a track. Compression reduces that dynamic range.

The best move you can make with keeping with your current gear would be to add a subwoofer and stop using mp3's. A decent subwoofer should play lower and better handle the low frequencies you are trying to reproduce.

I could try using WAV audio files. They are lossless. The aforementioned Toccata and Fugue in F Major was an MP3 download purchased from amazon.com. I will have to buy CD versions of this organ music, I guess. I'll need software to rip CD's to WAV.

The only question is, will the audio equipment I purchased even perform to "MY SATISFACTION". This is all subjective. YOUR level of satisfaction might not be the same as my level.

[Mr Peabody]

I presume you are trying to keep to a budget, right? With that in mind I would recommend not buying the Sony and get the Onkyo for $249.00, I forget the model. It's only rated at 50 watts per channel but trust me it will best the Sony. Onkyo uses higher current than most for receivers so therefore has a more powerful sound. The extra current will also control the speakers better. I also think the Onkyo has a built-in DAC so you can plug your computer digitally into the receiver, if that's what you are using to download to. If you are just using your phone you can buy an external DAC for it that would be better than Bluetooth but for not much more money you can get a streamer that will allow you to stream music from Tidal or Qobuz that is CD or better quality. I mentioned the Blue Sound Node in one of your other posts.

I didn't check the price of the Dayton's. You might want to price an Elac or Monitor Audio Bronze series which may allow better sound. Keep in mind Crutchfield allows you 60 days to return.

Here's what will help you the most, adding the subwoofer. The sub will better be able to reproduce the low end of a pipe organ. A lot depends on your room size but I recommend getting a 10" or 12's sub with as much power as you can budget. It takes more power to reproduce low frequencies. Even if you keep your original choices in receiver and speakers adding the sub is what you need.

My friend has a Marantz receiver with Klipsch speakers, he added a SVS sub and it made a tremendous difference in his overall sound.

Expectations are hard to gauge. Especially not knowing what you've had in the past and used to. The more I think about it I really think adding a subwoofer to your set up will make you very happy. Just remember when dialing it in you shouldn't be able to hear where the sub is located in your room. You want it to blend with your speakers. One thing at a time though. If any of the receivers you are looking at has a subwoofer output with crossover that would be perfect. Then the receiver wouldn't send anything above the cutoff point to your main speakers. This will take some of the load off your receiver's amp and be easier to blend.

If you didn't need the tuner section of the receiver maybe consider an integrated amp like from NAD. Without getting too far past the price of the receiver you are looking at the NAD may not have as many features but be a nice step up in sound quality. These may look like low power rating but it's not how many watts sometimes as much as the quality of those watts.

I could try using WAV audio files. They are lossless. The aforementioned Toccata and Fugue in F Major was an MP3 download purchased from amazon.com. I will have to buy CD versions of this organ music, I guess. I'll need software to rip CD's to WAV.

The only question is, will the audio equipment I purchased even perform to "MY SATISFACTION". This is all subjective. YOUR level of satisfaction might not be the same as my level.

[Hear Here]

I will have to buy CD versions of this organ music, I guess. I'll need software to rip CD's to WAV.

The only question is, will the audio equipment I purchased even perform to "MY SATISFACTION". This is all subjective. YOUR level of satisfaction might not be the same as my level.

A less cumbersome suggestion - buy a CD of that piece of music and play it on your CD player. No need to rip and no need to buy a download from Amazon.

Organ music is not currently a popular genre so you are likely to find recordings of T&F at your local charity shop for $1 / £1 or less.

Regarding your second question - I hope you will consider increasing your satisfaction level. This is a high end forum, so you are likely to be cold-shouldered here by some contributors, so perhaps look for a more accommodating forum where more members use budget-level kit. There's lots of good advice elsewhere, but most people here are sitting on 5 or 6 figure sums invested in their kit. Good luck.

[JDBarrow]

When I joined here I thought one could talk about "anything audio" here. Amazon still sells plenty of CD's of organ music. This is supposed to be a friendly forum so, ladies and gentlemen here, please refrain from negative cold-shoulder remarks. Not all music lovers are rich snobs. Some of us do have both economic and physical space retrains on what we can realistically own to play our favorite music.

[JDBarrow]

I presume you are trying to keep to a budget, right? With that in mind I would recommend not buying the Sony and get the Onkyo for $249.00, I forget the model. It's only rated at 50 watts per channel but trust me it will best the Sony. Onkyo uses higher current than most for receivers so therefore has a more powerful sound. The extra current will also control the speakers better. I also think the Onkyo has a built-in DAC so you can plug your computer digitally into the receiver, if that's what you are using to download to. If you are just using your phone you can buy an external DAC for it that would be better than Bluetooth but for not much more money you can get a streamer that will allow you to stream music from Tidal or Qobuz that is CD or better quality. I mentioned the Blue Sound Node in one of your other posts.

I didn't check the price of the Dayton's. You might want to price an Elac or Monitor Audio Bronze series which may allow better sound. Keep in mind Crutchfield allows you 60 days to return.

Here's what will help you the most, adding the subwoofer. The sub will better be able to reproduce the low end of a pipe organ. A lot depends on your room size but I recommend getting a 10" or 12's sub with as much power as you can budget. It takes more power to reproduce low frequencies. Even if you keep your original choices in receiver and speakers adding the sub is what you need.

My friend has a Marantz receiver with Klipsch speakers, he added a SVS sub and it made a tremendous difference in his overall sound.

Expectations are hard to gauge. Especially not knowing what you've had in the past and used to. The more I think about it I really think adding a subwoofer to your set up will make you very happy. Just remember when dialing it in you shouldn't be able to hear where the sub is located in your room. You want it to blend with your speakers. One thing at a time though. If any of the receivers you are looking at has a subwoofer output with crossover that would be perfect. Then the receiver wouldn't send anything above the cutoff point to your main speakers. This will take some of the load off your receiver's amp and be easier to blend.

If you didn't need the tuner section of the receiver maybe consider an integrated amp like from NAD. Without getting too far past the price of the receiver you are looking at the NAD may not have as many features but be a nice step up in sound quality. These may look like low power rating but it's not how many watts sometimes as much as the quality of those watts.

Mr. Peabody, you should see my other thread where I discuss the various stereo systems my family and I have owned and experienced in the past. I was born in 1964 and I'm an American. Audio equipment was bought from various stores like Pacific Stereo in Daly City, California, Circuit City, The Good Guys, and at department stores like Emporium Capwell's and Sears Roebuck. This is what I remember and gauge modern sound equipment by. If I only had that 1974 Electrophonic hi-fi again with a pair of giant 16-ohms today in mint condition. I still like the convenience of my phone as a source for tracks for playback. Records, tapes and CDs wear out and/or can become scratched. MP3's work fine for most of the classical, orchestral, pop, rock, jazz, folk, country and Latin I have in my digital music collection. Perhaps, I should have a serious collection of pipe organ music on CD, however. Digital audio files take up virtually no physical space and virtually never "wear out". I like the ability of being able to go onto amazon.com and download one music track for about a dollar instead of buying a whole album to get just one song.

I can remember rock radio stations in the 1970's playing commercials advertising Kenwood, Marantz, Fisher and Pioneer audio equipment for both home and automobile.

Marantz as supposed to have been the Rolls Royce of Audio back in the day. Kenwood was also a highly touted American brand. High-school boys would brag about Fisher stereos in the 1980's and Pioneer car systems, but Blaupunkt was the Rolls-Royce (or Mercedes-Benz??) of car audio in the 1980's.

[Shadowfax]

When I joined here I thought one could talk about "anything audio" here. Amazon still sells plenty of CD's of organ music. This is supposed to be a friendly forum so, ladies and gentlemen here, please refrain from negative cold-shoulder remarks. Not all music lovers are rich snobs. Some of us do have both economic and physical space retrains on what we can realistically own to play our favorite music.

AudioKarma may be a better place for you as they have many thousands more members who own and love vintage and budget gear. Unfortunately, there are very few members here with a lesser system than I have. This place is for those that aspire to higher end gear but nobody is trying to give you the cold shoulder. In fact, you got several very good suggestions but you poo pooed them right away.

[JDBarrow]

Yes, sir, I really need a "blue collar" audio forum for most people, the masses. I'm starting to feel some "shark bites" here already.

[Shadowfax]

Yes, sir, I really need a "blue collar" audio forum for most people, the masses. I'm starting to feel some "shark bites" here already.

Now you are being condescending. This is one of the more friendly forums you will find, but not everyone here can answer questions about the performance of $250 mass market receivers or speakers. Again, you got the exact answers to your questions but refused to accept them.

Can I run the two sets of speakers noted was answered as No
How can I run the 2 sets of speakers was answered with the suggestion of a speaker selector box, but you did not like that suggestion
You asked if what you are suggesting to own can reproduce Pipe Organ music properly. That question almost would not need to be asked because even some of the gear you see in this place cannot. My system cannot properly reproduce it.
You then brought up MP3s which do not sound better than a CD. A WAV file is pretty close to what is on the CD. I listen to MP3s on my office setup and in the car but they are not a faithful reproduction of anything. That said, not everyone wants the same sound quality and it does not always correlate with your budget. I have a friend with more money than he knows what to do with but cannot pick the bass line out of a Victor Wooten track.

You have also received a short lesson on several topics all while you claim this is not a friendly place.

SMH

[Mikado463]

Yes, sir, I really need a "blue collar" audio forum for most people, the masses. I'm starting to feel some "shark bites" here already.

JD, I think you're being a little presumptuous, regardless if AVR discussion is what you're after may I suggest........

Home Theater Reviews, HDTV, HDMI Receivers | Audioholics

Alot of knowledgeable folks over there, take a look !

[Mr Peabody]

Yeah, things have changed since to 70's/80's.

I've always been into music. I got a suitcase style record player while in elementary school and bought albums from yard sales. I've had those all-in-one systems. I got my first receiver in high school. I have attended and judged car audio contests. My grandson has a very small bedroom, I gave him a Denon HEOS which I ran into Audio Engine powered speakers. I'm a couple years older than you. All of this to say I didn't begin with the system I have now. The trip was fun though. I am also fine with being able to put together a budget system.

I hope you stay on the forum.

You might consider downloading in FLAC which stores the files in small packages and end up in CD quality or better. As I mentioned somewhere for you, a stand alone streamer will allow you to use your phone, almost all have an app. The app will allow you to create favorites and playlists.

Some of the companies of yesterday have been bought and sold, even more than once. Fisher became entry level in the 80's. They still offered a decent value rack system though. Marantz began high end went through some changes where they were just entry but have battled back offering both good home theater and some higher end products.

Mr. Peabody, you should see my other thread where I discuss the various stereo systems my family and I have owned and experienced in the past. I was born in 1964 and I'm an American. Audio equipment was bought from various stores like Pacific Stereo in Daly City, California, Circuit City, The Good Guys, and at department stores like Emporium Capwell's and Sears Roebuck. This is what I remember and gauge modern sound equipment by. If I only had that 1974 Electrophonic hi-fi again with a pair of giant 16-ohms today in mint condition. I still like the convenience of my phone as a source for tracks for playback. Records, tapes and CDs wear out and/or can become scratched. MP3's work fine for most of the classical, orchestral, pop, rock, jazz, folk, country and Latin I have in my digital music collection. Perhaps, I should have a serious collection of pipe organ music on CD, however. Digital audio files take up virtually no physical space and virtually never "wear out". I like the ability of being able to go onto amazon.com and download one music track for about a dollar instead of buying a whole album to get just one song.

I can remember rock radio stations in the 1970's playing commercials advertising Kenwood, Marantz, Fisher and Pioneer audio equipment for both home and automobile.

Marantz as supposed to have been the Rolls Royce of Audio back in the day. Kenwood was also a highly touted American brand. High-school boys would brag about Fisher stereos in the 1980's and Pioneer car systems, but Blaupunkt was the Rolls-Royce (or Mercedes-Benz??) of car audio in the 1980's.

[Hear Here]

JD, I think you're being a little presumptuous, regardless if AVR discussion is what you're after may I suggest........

Home Theater Reviews, HDTV, HDMI Receivers | Audioholics

Alot of knowledgeable folks over there, take a look !

Not sure if that site is good for anyone to ask about 2-channel music as I think the OP is. That's an AV forum so the discussion will revolve around multi-channel systems and everyone will be promoting subs and "room correction" DSP!

I'm more tempted to suggest Audio Asylum but it no longer has the number of members it once had, though it is well divided into sensible sections and is primarily a 2-channel forum. Alternatively the now-struggling (since a management disagreement) HiFiWigwam or the 2-Channel section of AV Forum though far too many AV guys interfere with the genuine 2-channel questions! For his own safety and sanity, perhaps he should avoid AVS forum - maybe in fact we all should!

To the OP - there is no need to get upset or annoyed at some of the replies you've received here. It's a bit like going into a Michelin Star restaurant and asking for a burger or fish & chips! Having said that, you have been provided with constructive replies and perhaps rather fewer negative ones than perhaps may be expected! However, keep looking at this forum and chuckle to yourself when people are discussing which $100K amp or DAC they should be looking at for their next upgrade, or which $1000 fuse they should use, or which $5K power cable is best! Yes, there are plenty of crazy posts here, but it's still a remarkably un-argumentative and polite place to visit. Good luck anyway.

[Mikado463]

Not sure if that site is good for anyone to ask about 2-channel music as I think the OP is. That's an AV forum so the discussion will revolve around multi-channel systems and everyone will be promoting subs and "room correction" DSP!

Wrong, like ANY forum, one needs to know how to 'work the floor' !

There are plenty of knowledgable folk there with regards to two channel playback.

[Shadowfax]

Wrong, like ANY forum, one needs to know how to 'work the floor' !

There are plenty of knowledgable folk there with regards to two channel playback.

Why didn't you suggest AK?

[Hear Here]

Wrong, like ANY forum, one needs to know how to 'work the floor' !

There are plenty of knowledgable folk there with regards to two channel playback.

Well, to tell you the truth I hadn't heard of the forum you mentioned, but I took a quick look. You can't deny it has an AV name and there's no 2-Channel or Stereo specific forum sub-heading.

No doubt there are plenty of knowledgeable and hopefully helpful people there, but the visitor needs to be skilled enough to "work the floor". I wonder if the OP is in that situation. It really bugs me when I visit the AVForum site and go to the 2-Channel section, only to be bombarded by AV guys insisting that everyone NEEDS subs and DSP. They ridicule the notion of big full-range speakers that often deliver sound that doesn't needs DSP when properly set up in sympathetically furnished or treated rooms.

[Mikado463]

Why didn't you suggest AK?

yep another good option along with Audio Circle, plenty of 2 channel 'receiver folks' on both !

[Bones13]

I grew up in a home with DIY Klipschorn speakers powered by McIntosh Pre and MC60 monoblocks. My dad was proud of the organ sound reproduction by his system. I have a baseline.

I don’t have 15 inch woofers in horn enclosures, powered by 60 watts of tube goodness. But, in my small room, my 100 watt amps, with efficient speakers with 8 inch woofers do a nice job down to the low 30hz range. Organ frequencies can go to 20hz and lower (feel more than hear). It takes a nice system, big woofers, and an appropriate room (most rooms have a bass mode that spoils natural bass response) to make this feeling. Probably best done with subwoofer(s) properly tuned, and EQ’d to the room.