Thread: The rubber hits the road: MSB direct to power amp or not?

All,

I have an interesting situation.

My Gryphon Pandora is faulty (right channel not working). Maybe just a fuse - who knows. My wonderful Gryphon dealer in Singapore is checking it out.

In the meantime, am running my MSB Premier DAC directly to my Gryphon Antileon Evo. For the first time. Can’t believe I never even compared the Pandora to the MSB.

Anyway, it sounds fantastic! Definitely different compared to the Pandora. Can’t quite put my finger on the difference: would need them both up and running so I can compare. And the MSB pre-amp has not been burnt in so am sure it will get better.

Does anyone else have experience with this situation?

Andrew

So far, the high end and low end are good. Mid range is muddy. But only 10 hours into burning it in so let’s see

Keep us posted!

One thing that has occured to me: presumably we all agree that the mid range is the most important. It is the vocals, the drums and the bass, within what we can hear. Of course we need a broader range. But why is it that the mid range only gets a 6” speaker? Maybe because that is all that is needed. I dunno

Tested my US$700 canare speaker cables against my MIT $7.5k cables (which my dog ate) replacement testing cables in a blind testing with mates. Nobody could tell the difference. Fascinating.

Keen to test the MSB Reference direct to my Antileon Evo.

Originally Posted by AJR

Tested my US$700 canare speaker cables against my MIT $7.5k cables (which my dog ate) replacement testing cables in a blind testing with mates. Nobody could tell the difference. Fascinating.

Stop the presses, say it isn't so !!

I do not want to believe! Will reserve judgment when I do a blind A/B. But for now, nobody can tell the difference!

Originally Posted by AJR

I do not want to believe! But for now, nobody can tell the difference!

no problem, keep enjoying the Kool-Aid !

in general, toward the bottom of the scale of the price/performance curve, a preamp is a hinderance to the purity of a source. by that i mean that the drive benefits of a modestly priced preamp, are held back by the modest circuits, modest chassis and modest cables needed. you have added restrictions to the signal path, that are not sufficiently compensated for by the active preamp advantages.

for your system; one might need the switching capabilities of a full line stage, or the extra drive for your cable lengths. but it's not helping the net performance.

now; past this point of price/performance, a preamp may possess sufficient performance to provide a net gain.

when people are asking me about how to allocate resources (budget) to various components when starting out, i mostly recommend most of it go to speakers and the source. find a source with a volume control, or buy a cheap passive pre, but until you get past a certain system investment level, a preamp is not pushing the performance.

please know that i do not claim this is your circumstance. but i know that MSB dacs have excellent passive preamps, and i know how that works in my system. it takes a $50k battery powered darTZeel preamp to better my MSB dac going direct to my amps.

I had the mighty Audio Research Reference 10 Preamp in my system, which I was using in conjunction with the Esoteric Grandioso K1 Player. The combo produced a warm and wonderful sound with tremendous dynamics.

I decided to move up to the MSB Select DAC and when I removed the ARC REF10, I achieved significantly increased transparency, more detail and a lower noise floor with no loss in dynamics. The system retained its natural warmth but with greater clarity and accuracy.

I consequently decided to sell the ARC REF10 and have never looked back. Running direct from my Select DAC to my Vandersteen M7-HPA mono amps has given me better sound than I could have ever imagined.

Ken

Originally Posted by Alpinist

I had the mighty Audio Research Reference 10 Preamp in my system, which I was using in conjunction with the Esoteric Grandioso K1 Player. The combo produced a warm and wonderful sound with tremendous dynamics.

I decided to move up to the MSB Select DAC and when I removed the ARC REF10, I achieved significantly increased transparency, more detail and a lower noise floor with no loss in dynamics. The system retained its natural warmth but with greater clarity and accuracy.

I consequently decided to sell the ARC REF10 and have never looked back. Running direct from my Select DAC to my Vandersteen M7-HPA mono amps has given me better sound than I could have ever imagined.

Ken

This makes sense for someone whose system sources are 100% digital. However, once you have multiple sources which includes analog, active preamps come in real handy.

Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne

in general, toward the bottom of the scale of the price/performance curve, a preamp is a hinderance to the purity of a source. by that i mean that the drive benefits of a modestly priced preamp, are held back by the modest circuits, modest chassis and modest cables needed. you have added restrictions to the signal path, that are not sufficiently compensated for by the active preamp advantages.

for your system; one might need the switching capabilities of a full line stage, or the extra drive for your cable lengths. but it's not helping the net performance.

now; past this point of price/performance, a preamp may possess sufficient performance to provide a net gain.

when people are asking me about how to allocate resources (budget) to various components when starting out, i mostly recommend most of it go to speakers and the source. find a source with a volume control, or buy a cheap passive pre, but until you get past a certain system investment level, a preamp is not pushing the performance.

please know that i do not claim this is your circumstance. but i know that MSB dacs have excellent passive preamps, and i know how that works in my system. it takes a $50k battery powered darTZeel preamp to better my MSB dac going direct to my amps.

How about a dollar figure for what you consider the bottom of the scale of the price performance cure where a preamp will hinder the purity of a source?

Originally Posted by nicoludio

Minimal difference or no difference at all?

It’s a great question and I should have elaborated. No-one could tell which cable was which. But there were differences: Canare was slightly more “transparent” with a “clearer soundstage”. MITs were slightly more “fuller/weightier” in sound. Very, very small differences however. Will keep testing.

And will report back when I receive my repaired Pandora on the comparison between with and without the Pandora.

And yep - I am 100% digital so that impacts the analysis.

Originally Posted by mep

How about a dollar figure for what you consider the bottom of the scale of the price performance cure where a preamp will hinder the purity of a source?

Won’t it depend on the particular preamp and how it fits in with the system?

Received my repaired Pandora back today. A slightly sheepish backtrack: no question that my music sounds better using the Pandora as my pre-amp instead of going direct from my MSB Premier to my Antileon Evo. Much richer, more detailed, and just sounds better. A good lesson that memory is not a good measure of sound. Can only compare in real time by switching between whatever it is that you are comparing, and ideally blind testing. Would still love to compare the better pre-amp stage of the MSB Reference with the Pandora. But for now will be sticking with the Pandora and waiting until I move into a bigger apartment at which point my focus will be on a speaker upgrade.

Originally Posted by AJR

Received my repaired Pandora back today. A slightly sheepish backtrack: no question that my music sounds better using the Pandora as my pre-amp instead of going direct from my MSB Premier to my Antileon Evo. Much richer, more detailed, and just sounds better. A good lesson that memory is not a good measure of sound. Can only compare in real time by switching between whatever it is that you are comparing, and ideally blind testing. Would still love to compare the better pre-amp stage of the MSB Reference with the Pandora. But for now will be sticking with the Pandora and waiting until I move into a bigger apartment at which point my focus will be on a speaker upgrade.

Glad to hear the Pandora preamp is sounding so good. The preamp stage of the Reference and Select DAC is significantly better than the Premier’s preamp stage. I think you are making the right choice using the Pandora.

Ken

Thanks Ken. Would *love* to test the Reference direct to my AE. No chance unfortunately. I am happy with my electronics now (but with an eye to the Reference at some point in the future) and will be focusing on speakers closer to when I move into a new apartment/house in 12 months or so.

Actually, another observation: think my Pandora (which I bought 2nd hand) was faulty from the start. Am jamming the system at level 46 and am certain that pre-repair I needed to get to 55+ for a similar output. And what I am hearing now is much more balanced. Probably should have sent my 2nd hand Pandora to my dealer for a full check before I purchased it. Anyway, US$300 equivalent for repairs and I am super happy. The value of a good dealer.

Originally Posted by AJR

Tested my US$700 canare speaker cables against my MIT $7.5k cables (which my dog ate) replacement testing cables in a blind testing with mates. Nobody could tell the difference. Fascinating.

Which model Canare speaker cable?

Originally Posted by mep

How about a dollar figure for what you consider the bottom of the scale of the price performance cure where a preamp will hinder the purity of a source?

it's really not a fixed dollar figure thing, more an awareness thing. it depends on how good the source is, and the level of the preamp you are bypassing, how good or bad the cables you are eliminating. and overall system refinement. you might have an active preamp that is working fine, but upgrade your speakers or improve room acoustics, and now that preamp is revealed to be a detriment. your system situation can evolve and change the equation.

it's like where an integrated dac/pre is better than separates. saving on one chassis boosts the quality of the internal circuits up to a certain quality level.

is that under $3k, under $5k? or maybe under $20k. no hard and fast rule. just don't add a preamp and expect it to be better. it might be different, or worse. it's most relevant when you are trying to judge system dollar allocation and at what point adding a preamp makes sense. take the preamp budget and add it to the source or speaker budget might take you further. better interconnects and power cables for your source might push you further than a preamp (i realize cable performance is not universally valued).

of course switching sources, driving long interconnects, amplification synergy, and remote volume control are all reasons to add an active preamp. but performance can suffer adding those features.

i'm just always cautious about the effect of any preamp. i went 4 years with a passive after i moved on from my Mark Levinson #32 back 20 years ago. i tried 5 or 6 spendy preamps that my passive surpassed or equaled. until i found the darTZeel.

IMO, unless you are a one trick digital pony, you need a preamp. If all you need is a digital source with a volume control so you can connect your digital source directly to your amp, good on ya. My system requires a preamp with both balanced and unbalanced inputs and outputs.

Originally Posted by mep

IMO, unless you are a one trick digital pony, you need a preamp. If all you need is a digital source with a volume control so you can connect your digital source directly to your amp, good on ya. My system requires a preamp with both balanced and unbalanced inputs and outputs.

i'm with you 100% Mark, as i too have multiple sources....multiple....multiple. so need an active preamp. it's essential for me.

but the subject of this thread is relevant to a single source system. so i was trying to expand on the issues involved in the decision.

Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne

i'm with you 100% Mark, as i too have multiple sources....multiple....multiple. so need an active preamp. it's essential for me.

but the subject of this thread is relevant to a single source system. so i was trying to expand on the issues involved in the decision.

Understood.

They are custom made by a cable company which uses Canare to make them. Half the cost was actually the furutech connectors.

Sure. Am 100% digital. Maybe should have made this clearer. Obviously if anyone has multiple sources then a preamp is necessary.

Even digital only systems will benefit from an active Preamp , much better jump drive and tone after Gain matching ..!



Regards

Originally Posted by a.wayne

Even digital only systems will benefit from an active Preamp , much better jump drive and tone after Gain matching ..!



Regards

Word. 100% correct. The difference (with my repaired power supply) is a no brainer. But would *love* to compare the Pandora against the MSB Reference pre-amp.

Originally Posted by AJR

Sure. Am 100% digital. Maybe should have made this clearer. Obviously if anyone has multiple sources then a preamp is necessary.

Something to consider would be using the Premier DAC direct into a MSB 202 amp. Jeff Fritz (Soundstage Ultra) was amazed by the synergy of this combo in an all-digital system. Logistics might make a comparison difficult for you

Originally Posted by rbbert

Something to consider would be using the Premier DAC direct into a MSB 202 amp. Jeff Fritz (Soundstage Ultra) was amazed by the synergy of this combo in an all-digital system. Logistics might make a comparison difficult for you

Agreed. The MSB DAC’s into the MSB amps is a perfect synergy. Otherwise, I tend to like a preamp.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Don’t want to bang on too much about this. But the repaired Pandora is delivering around 40% (yes, that much) improvement in dynamics, speed, punch and soundstage. All top end and midrange. Not bass, interestingly. Feels like I have a brand new soundsystem and for the first time it *really* feels that my S3 Mk2 (as good as they are) are the limiting factor. Before, it was all hypotheticals.

Originally Posted by rbbert

Something to consider would be using the Premier DAC direct into a MSB 202 amp. Jeff Fritz (Soundstage Ultra) was amazed by the synergy of this combo in an all-digital system. Logistics might make a comparison difficult for you

Thanks. Thought about this a while back - but no way am I replacing my Antileon Evo. Would rather replace electronics upstream of it. Thought I had found a simple solution: sell the Pandora pre and upgrade my MSB Premier to a Reference and use the Reference’s pre-amp. Unfortunately no silver bullet! Back to focusing on a speaker upgrade and maybe a DAC clock upgrade to tide me over in the short term. After all that, will consider a DAC upgrade

actually when you get to the MSB Reference level or better the Preamp is analog with an analog volume control . You can use either digital or analog inputs and it's amazing. As Alpinist ditched his extremal preamp so did I once I moved from the Premier Dac to the Reference. A home demo is all it would take for confirmation. I thought my system was dead quiet but until I removed the external preamp I didn't know what quiet was.

I was responding to a previous post and thought I hit "Reply" so this is out of place but the sentiment remains the same.