Q: Can anyone speak to the differences between LampizatOr GG and MSB Premier?

I can't comment on your question as I did not hear both at the same time but as I have almost the same electronics as you do (Ref75, Ref6) I can definitely comment on the upgrade path which you had in your mind initially (GG1 to GG2 or even Pacific). I've made this move few months ago from GG1 to the latest iteration of GG2 and for my ears the increase in SQ is just amazing in all possible ways you can imagine. Tube set you have is great, but just adding KR242 or KR242RK or PX25 (just any of those) would make a very significant (positive) change in sound delivery vs 300b. As a last step, other USB cable can make a very noticeable difference (directly compared to Lightspeed which you have). All in all, as said, not really answering your question but rather giving perspective on your initial idea.

Cheers;
G

Dear Porsche Fan

I totally concur with Golum about the upgrade from GG to GG2.
It is a very worthwile and yet rather affordable upgrade.
This GG2 upgrade brings you tonally closer to the Pacific DAC. The GG2 is closer to the Pacific DAC than it is to the GG1.

I also would strongly encourage you to try and buy the new Riccardo Kron KR 242 Output tubes.
Your Taka 274b recti is already excellent :tup:

In addition to that, you might also consider the Final Touch Audio Callisto USB cable. I
t is massively better sounding than my trusty Light Harmonic Lightspeed 10G (while the LH 10G was better than the rest I tried before, obviously because I bought the LH 10G).
My LH showed all other cables out the door, until I got the opportunity to try the FTA Callisto, which is a big step above the LH10G sonically.

I hope those informations are of use for you :hey:

Thank you, Golum and Christophs. I appreciate your input on the GG2 and Callisto USB cable. I have no doubts that there is optimization available through either the GG2 and/or a different USB cable; however, I am most interested in the MSB Premier relative to the GG or GG2.

There is a great deal of buzz around the new offerings from MSB (same was/is true with the Lampizator products for good reason) and I want to explore the relative differences. The simplicity of operation is another element that makes the MSB appealing assuming, of course, that the MSB is equivalent to the GG2 in terms of "real musicians in space", fully fleshed out tonality, detail, and dynamics. My highest goal: a convincing illusion of being in the original space with real musicians. When that fails due to recording limitations...a reasonable illusion of musicians in my listening room. Rich tonality, "dense" images all serve those goals to some degree if the software is compliant.

P.S. Christoph, although I am a Porsche fan, my user name refers to my appreciation for german boxer dogs, particularly those of working bloodlines.

Hi GB

Sorry for the misinterpretation of your moniker.

I hope Alrainbow can chime in, because he is very knowlegdable about Lampis anyways but also about msb as he owned the top of the heap msb DAC for several years himself and heard the Select 1 and 2 on several occasions.

PS: I would say you haven't heard your present GG the best it can Sound with those 300b tubes you use :blush:

@Alrainbow, are you (or others) able to weigh in on my questions above?

Thanks,

Jordan

Hello yes I can give you my views.
Can you pm me and we can talk or email.
I don't sell products or have affiliations either.
But i have owned both dacs and others

I

Germanboxers said:

Thank you, Golum and Christophs. I appreciate your input on the GG2 and Callisto USB cable. I have no doubts that there is optimization available through either the GG2 and/or a different USB cable; however, I am most interested in the MSB Premier relative to the GG or GG2.

There is a great deal of buzz around the new offerings from MSB (same was/is true with the Lampizator products for good reason) and I want to explore the relative differences. The simplicity of operation is another element that makes the MSB appealing assuming, of course, that the MSB is equivalent to the GG2 in terms of "real musicians in space", fully fleshed out tonality, detail, and dynamics. My highest goal: a convincing illusion of being in the original space with real musicians. When that fails due to recording limitations...a reasonable illusion of musicians in my listening room. Rich tonality, "dense" images all serve those goals to some degree if the software is compliant.

P.S. Christoph, although I am a Porsche fan, my user name refers to my appreciation for german boxer dogs, particularly those of working bloodlines.

Click to expand...

Intesrd dogs at one point in my life
we still have one left. A MANCHESTER terrier female. We were going to get a German pincher too.

I have in my place a new GG 2 to do a small review on for the forums.
Lets email

Alrainbow said:

Hello yes I can give you my views.
Can you pm me and we can talk or email.
I don't sell products or have affiliations either.
But i have owned both dacs and others

Click to expand...

Alrainbow, I'm sure many on the forum would be interested in your opinions, rather than restricting to a pm?

Willco said:

Alrainbow, I'm sure many on the forum would be interested in your opinions, rather than restricting to a pm?

Click to expand...

+1

Of course I'll share to all. But first I want a Simple conversation with out being a back and forth of others as these forums can be.
Im always honest if you read my posts here and else where.

Well...Mike was kind enough to ship me his demo MSB Premier DAC so that I could actually compare it directly to my Lampizator Golden Gate. After a couple of hours of warm up on the first day I received it, I sat down for a listen. I was impressed by how tonally "dense" it was, especially being solid state, but after a few hours I felt some fatigue...usually a bad sign. I left it on for the next few days and popped down to my listening room for a few songs once in awhile just to get a fix during the busy week.

Saturday morning came and I was up early, espresso in hand, and in for some deep comparative listening. I prefer not to jump back and forth when I compare equipment since I tend to lose the "gestalt" of the sound of each, but I did have a good setup for that if/when I decided to do so. I have a capsv3 computer fed by a Uptone Audio LPS as NAA feeding the GG with the output of the DAC going to my ARC Ref5SE. Since I have multiple ethernet feeds, changing from the MSB to the GG was as simple as changing zones in Roon and changing the input on the preamp via remote.

A few hours of listening just to the MSB Premier confirmed that the extra time powered on eliminated the fatigue I felt shortly after receiving it. I could sink in and enjoy a wide range of music. My high level conclusion was that these two fight in the same weight class. Both allow me to "turn off" and enjoy the music.

After lunch I decided to do some head to head comparisons. After doing so, I do think the Premier is technically superior. It has better balance top to bottom for one, it reveals more low-level details like hall ambiance, it's a little "faster" in that it seems notes are more aligned, giving transients a bit more focus and snap. BUT, I don't really make decisions of this nature and magnitude on a balance sheet of technical merits. I have to "feel it" if that makes sense. And through Sat afternoon, I didn't "feel it". I vacillated between "just stick with what you have, you love it" and "this Premier is very good too, I could easily live with it (and love it) and it gets that computer out of the room".

After dinner with the wife Saturday night, I went back in for some more listening, but decided to try the MSB Premier direct to my ARC Ref75SE amp. I was very surprised that the sound quality did not take a step backward. In fact, it was hard to say the sound changed much at all. This has not been the case when I tried going direct with the Golden Gate in the past. So, I listened, and vacillated some more. By late evening I was leaning toward the Premier.

I woke up Sunday morning, listened some more, then fired off an e-mail to Mike and yada yada yada I'm sending back the Premier and buying an MSB Reference with Femto 77, render v2 and the preamp module!!! Yikes!! I felt it...and I decided to leave no question about my front end by buying the Reference. Strange how this hobby works, but I'm very excited to be able to simplify, having only two pieces of electronics in the room, not counting the the bluray and cable boxes. My wife will be able to use the room for music or movies whereas now she won't even try to use it given the complexity. And I will have my entire collection of music to rediscover!!!

MSB and Lampizator are truly State of the Art audio manufacturers. Adding the Golden Gate dac to my system 3 years ago was the single biggest/most important upgrade I had experienced in 30 years in this hobby. I'm excited about where the MSB Reference will bring me in my music enjoyment.

Thanks,

Jordan

Germanboxers said:

Well...Mike was kind enough to ship me his demo MSB Premier DAC so that I could actually compare it directly to my Lampizator Golden Gate. After a couple of hours of warm up on the first day I received it, I sat down for a listen. I was impressed by how tonally "dense" it was, especially being solid state, but after a few hours I felt some fatigue...usually a bad sign. I left it on for the next few days and popped down to my listening room for a few songs once in awhile just to get a fix during the busy week.

Saturday morning came and I was up early, espresso in hand, and in for some deep comparative listening. I prefer not to jump back and forth when I compare equipment since I tend to lose the "gestalt" of the sound of each, but I did have a good setup for that if/when I decided to do so. I have a capsv3 computer fed by a Uptone Audio LPS as NAA feeding the GG with the output of the DAC going to my ARC Ref5SE. Since I have multiple ethernet feeds, changing from the MSB to the GG was as simple as changing zones in Roon and changing the input on the preamp via remote.

A few hours of listening just to the MSB Premier confirmed that the extra time powered on eliminated the fatigue I felt shortly after receiving it. I could sink in and enjoy a wide range of music. My high level conclusion was that these two fight in the same weight class. Both allow me to "turn off" and enjoy the music.

After lunch I decided to do some head to head comparisons. After doing so, I do think the Premier is technically superior. It has better balance top to bottom for one, it reveals more low-level details like hall ambiance, it's a little "faster" in that it seems notes are more aligned, giving transients a bit more focus and snap. BUT, I don't really make decisions of this nature and magnitude on a balance sheet of technical merits. I have to "feel it" if that makes sense. And through Sat afternoon, I didn't "feel it". I vacillated between "just stick with what you have, you love it" and "this Premier is very good too, I could easily live with it (and love it) and it gets that computer out of the room".

After dinner with the wife Saturday night, I went back in for some more listening, but decided to try the MSB Premier direct to my ARC Ref75SE amp. I was very surprised that the sound quality did not take a step backward. In fact, it was hard to say the sound changed much at all. This has not been the case when I tried going direct with the Golden Gate in the past. So, I listened, and vacillated some more. By late evening I was leaning toward the Premier.

I woke up Sunday morning, listened some more, then fired off an e-mail to Mike and yada yada yada I'm sending back the Premier and buying an MSB Reference with Femto 77, render v2 and the preamp module!!! Yikes!! I felt it...and I decided to leave no question about my front end by buying the Reference. Strange how this hobby works, but I'm very excited to be able to simplify, having only two pieces of electronics in the room, not counting the the bluray and cable boxes. My wife will be able to use the room for music or movies whereas now she won't even try to use it given the complexity. And I will have my entire collection of music to rediscover!!!

MSB and Lampizator are truly State of the Art audio manufacturers. Adding the Golden Gate dac to my system 3 years ago was the single biggest/most important upgrade I had experienced in 30 years in this hobby. I'm excited about where the MSB Reference will bring me in my music enjoyment.

Click to expand...

Hi Jordan

Congrats on the new aquisition :congrats:
May I ask what tubes you used in the GG?

Christophs said:

Hi Jordan

Congrats on the new aquisition :congrats:
May I ask what tubes you used in the GG?

Click to expand...

Sure, Christophs.

I was not a serial tube roller, but I did experiment with quite a few before settling in on a combo that worked well in my system and to my ears. Just based on memory I have experimented with the following output tubes:
Elrog Original 300B - very nice, but unreliable!
Sophia Princess 300B - nice midrange, but soft on top and bottom.
Emission Labs 45 - balanced, but uninspiring if memory serves.
KR 300B Balloons - settled with these after acquiring the Takatsuki 274B rectifier
PSvane Western Electric replica 101D - detailed, but not my cup of tea otherwise.
PSvane ceramic base 101D - similar to WE101D above.
Takatsuki 274B - the best rectifier for me considering all qualities combined.
Philips 5Z4GY - cannot remember much about it, but I did like it over the more conventional 5UG/5R4 Shuguangs.
GEC U52/5U4G - a more vintage sound if my memory holds...liked it, but the Tak 274B gave more goodness overall and from top to bottom.

2 years ago I had the GG 1.5, then listened to the Nagra HD and the first Aqua Formula, and overall preferred the Formula in my system. but in the back of my mind I was trying to reach the MSB Select II level for less money. later I did go from the Formula to the MSB Select II.

I can certainly relate to Jordan's experience and congratulate him on his choice of the Reference with the 33 Femto. the MSB is a dac that 'gets' the musical wholeness of the GG......along with lots more too. I loved the GG and GG1.5 in my system but my MSB is less in the way of the musical message......and compliments my particular system better.

Germanboxers said:

Sure, Christophs.

I was not a serial tube roller, but I did experiment with quite a few before settling in on a combo that worked well in my system and to my ears. Just based on memory I have experimented with the following output tubes:
Elrog Original 300B - very nice, but unreliable!
Sophia Princess 300B - nice midrange, but soft on top and bottom.
Emission Labs 45 - balanced, but uninspiring if memory serves.
KR 300B Balloons - settled with these after acquiring the Takatsuki 274B rectifier
PSvane Western Electric replica 101D - detailed, but not my cup of tea otherwise.
PSvane ceramic base 101D - similar to WE101D above.
Takatsuki 274B - the best rectifier for me considering all qualities combined.
Philips 5Z4GY - cannot remember much about it, but I did like it over the more conventional 5UG/5R4 Shuguangs.
GEC U52/5U4G - a more vintage sound if my memory holds...liked it, but the Tak 274B gave more goodness overall and from top to bottom.

Click to expand...

Thank you Jordan
I wonder how it would have gone if you had a pair of RK series KR 242 or KR PX25 on hand for the compare.
I'm really not a fan of 300b tubes in the GG

Christophs said:

Thank you Jordan
I wonder how it would have gone if you had a pair of RK series KR 242 or KR PX25 on hand for the compare.
I'm really not a fan of 300b tubes in the GG

Click to expand...

Given that I have high sensitivity speakers (Zu 101db/w) I didn't feel any lack of drive with 300B's if that is what you are concerned about, Christophs? I have also tried the KR PX4 that I did not mention and it did have more drive, but that was not/is not an issue to resolve in my system with my preferences. The 300B Balloons could boogy aplenty in my system.

Mike - you said succinctly what took me several paragraphs. Thanks for adding to this thread. I did follow your progression on here and WBF as you progressed through your digital front end. Given that you ended up with the Select II, I felt our paths were forever on different trajectories...yet ultimately I was wrong about that...at least in some degree. Damn Mike for being so kind to send me his Premier to audition!!!! LOL

so when does the bad boy Ref dac land? So excited for you, Jordan!

Mike- any updated comments on the Premier vs Ref as you've had significant time with them now?