MSB Select II

**Elberoth** · October 5, 2020, 03:08 AM

In native mode. I was actually wondering, what enhanced in the menu means and does.

**Alpinist** · November 3, 2020, 03:46 AM

Originally Posted by Elberoth

In native mode. I was actually wondering, what enhanced in the menu means and does.

Hi Adam,

The DSD Optimized Mode converts from DSD to PCM.

Ken

**Gregm** · November 3, 2020, 08:45 AM

I also prefer enhanced, even though taking me back to PCM does seem to defeat the purpose, doesn't it? Could've stuck with 24/192 in the first place...

Comparing DSD (5.something mega) to 24/192, I preferred the latter on a Yello album (the one with "the race" on it). Both files direct from master-tape, supposedly. The 24/196 sounded more punchy, better transient attack, better dynamic rendering -- and I'm a sucker for dynamics!

**Kingsrule** · November 3, 2020, 12:16 PM

Actually MSB Enhanced mode is DSD via DoP.......

**Alpinist** · November 3, 2020, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by Kingsrule

Actually MSB Enhanced mode is DSD via DoP.......

Hi King,

Hope you are well. Care to elaborate on this?

The Select User Manual says the optimized mode is the DSD decimation done using a special method developed by MSB. I looked this up and this appears to mean a DSD to PCM conversion.

I can ask Daniel Gullman if you want me to verify this.

Ken

**Kingsrule** · November 3, 2020, 05:25 PM

Hi Ken

Sure check with MSB but I'm sure its DSD via DoP

**Alpinist** · November 3, 2020, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by Kingsrule

Hi Ken

Sure check with MSB but I'm sure its DSD via DoP

I guess this is possible. We’ll see how Daniel at MSB responds.

From the DCS Website:

FAQ: What is DoP (DSD over PCM)?

The original idea for DoP was invented by dCS in 2011. It involves taking groups of 16 adjacent 1-bit samples from a DSD stream and packing them into the lower 16 bits of a 24/176.4 data stream. Data from the other channel of the stereo pair is packed the same way. A specific marker code in the top 8 bits identifies the data stream as DoP, rather than PCM. The resulting DoP stream can be transmitted through existing 24/192-capable USB, AES, Dual AES or SPDIF interfaces to a DoP-compatible DAC, which reassembles the original stereo DSD data stream COMPLETELY UNCHANGED.

If something goes wrong and the data stream is decoded as PCM, the output will be low-level noise with faint music in the back ground, so it fails safely. This can happen if the computer erases the marker code by applying a volume adjustment.

**Elberoth** · November 3, 2020, 07:28 PM

DoP is a system developed to send DSD signal from a transport to a DAC. It has nothing to do with a D/A conversion.

**Elztalbiker** · November 3, 2020, 08:06 PM

DoP = DSD over PCM

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**DSMSB** · November 3, 2020, 10:04 PM

For all current MSB DACs (Select, Reference, Premier and Discrete):

"Native DSD" is the native DSD data-stream at the native sample rate (eg. 2.8224 MHz, etc...) sent directly to a large number of parallel DSD single bit DACs without manipulation (the number DSD DACs available depends on the model). The converted result is then low pass filtered in the analog domain to remove the large amount of DSD quantization noise. Analog volume control is required because there is no manipulation of the digital data.

"Optimized DSD" removes the majority of the DSD quantization noise using digital filtering without changing the sample rate (eg. 2.8224 MHz, etc...) and then plays back the multi-bit super high sample rate data using the multi-bit capabilities of the DACs. The converted result is then low pass filtered in the analog domain to remove the very small amount of DSD quantization noise remaining. It would be accurate to call this PCM playback, but that is also an oversimplification since the "PCM" DACs are running at the native DSD sample rate and there is no sample rate conversion, just quantization noise removal. On models without analog volume control this mode also allows digital volume control.

DOP is just a way of transporting DSD on a link such as S/PDIF that would not normally be compatible with DSD. DOP is native DSD that has been packed into a PCM container and must be unpacked by a compatible decoder at the end of the link (such as in a DAC that supports DOP). All current MSB DACs support DOP unpacking if DOP data is detected on any of the inputs.

**Alpinist** · November 4, 2020, 04:08 AM

Thanks Daniel for your detailed response!

Ken

**Kingsrule** · November 4, 2020, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by DSMSB

For all current MSB DACs (Select, Reference, Premier and Discrete):

"Native DSD" is the native DSD data-stream at the native sample rate (eg. 2.8224 MHz, etc...) sent directly to a large number of parallel DSD single bit DACs without manipulation (the number DSD DACs available depends on the model). The converted result is then low pass filtered in the analog domain to remove the large amount of DSD quantization noise. Analog volume control is required because there is no manipulation of the digital data.

"Optimized DSD" removes the majority of the DSD quantization noise using digital filtering without changing the sample rate (eg. 2.8224 MHz, etc...) and then plays back the multi-bit super high sample rate data using the multi-bit capabilities of the DACs. The converted result is then low pass filtered in the analog domain to remove the very small amount of DSD quantization noise remaining. It would be accurate to call this PCM playback, but that is also an oversimplification since the "PCM" DACs are running at the native DSD sample rate and there is no sample rate conversion, just quantization noise removal. On models without analog volume control this mode also allows digital volume control.

DOP is just a way of transporting DSD on a link such as S/PDIF that would not normally be compatible with DSD. DOP is native DSD that has been packed into a PCM container and must be unpacked by a compatible decoder at the end of the link (such as in a DAC that supports DOP). All current MSB DACs support DOP unpacking if DOP data is detected on any of the inputs.

It looks like what I read about Optimized was incorrect. Why isn't the above in the owners manual and on the MSB website? And why doesn't MSB give this info to the MSB reviewers? (If they do, my apologies but it would be incumbent on them to make sure Optimized vs. Native is understood and reported correctly)

So what mode does everyone prefer?

**Alpinist** · November 4, 2020, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Kingsrule

So what mode does everyone prefer?

Hi King,

I have used DSD Optimized ever since Vince from MSB did a demonstration at Axpona, flipping back and forth between the two on the Select DAC. The Optimized Mode appeared to have more presence than the Native Mode. I will have to do my own comparison on some of my favorite tracks.

Ken

**Kingsrule** · November 6, 2020, 11:06 AM

I go back and forth but mostly listen to Optimized....

**Alpinist** · December 6, 2020, 01:04 PM

I did my own comparison of DSD Native and Optimized and I’ve now switched to DSD Native. I feel it sounds more natural and conveys more ease than DSD Optimized.

Ken

**Mike Lavigne** · December 6, 2020, 01:16 PM

you guys are pushing me to revisit this dsd question. it's been a few years since i played around with it. i know dsd 'Optimized' does apply a PCM conversion of some sort.

with the increased transparency of the Extreme TAS Alpha version maybe something will more completely sort itself out.

**Mike** · December 6, 2020, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne

you guys are pushing me to revisit this dsd question. it's been a few years since i played around with it. i know dsd 'Optimized' does apply a PCM conversion of some sort.

with the increased transparency of the Extreme TAS Alpha version maybe something will more completely sort itself out.

Not really a conversion. It uses PCM to transfer the DSD file. Think of the DSD file piggy backing on a PCM signal.

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**Alectiong** · January 16, 2021, 08:02 PM

I appreciate the sharings on these threads, from which I learned a great deal. Having recently listened to Discreet and Ref DAC's, I too joined the club and ordered the Select DAC & transport. Will share listening feedback in future after they arrived.

**brodricj** · January 16, 2021, 08:08 PM

Interesting....you auditioned Discrete and Reference, didn't audition Select, but bought Select? What options did you order with it?

**Alectiong** · January 16, 2021, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by brodricj

Interesting....you auditioned Discrete and Reference, didn't audition Select, but bought Select? What options did you order with it?

Didn’t have time to listen to Select locally except in an audio show. Decided on select based on what I heard with discreet and Reference and word of mouth and forums like these. I hope I didn’t make a grave mistake. It is a bundled package nowadays except I added the proISL and the proISL/proUSB modules.

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**Mike** · January 16, 2021, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by Alectiong

Didn’t have time to listen to Select locally except in an audio show. Decided on select based on what I heard with discreet and Reference and word of mouth and forums like these. I hope I didn’t make a grave mistake. It is a bundled package nowadays except I added the proISL and the proISL/proUSB modules.

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Where are you located?

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**Alectiong** · January 17, 2021, 06:22 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

Where are you located?

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Singapore.

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