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Thread: MSB Select II

  1. #101
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    Re: MSB Select II

    In native mode. I was actually wondering, what enhanced in the menu means and does.
    Adam

    Speakers: Magico M3
    Amp: Dagostino Momentum Stereo
    Digital: Lampi Pacific + Lampi DSD Komputer
    Cables: AQ WEL Signature IC / Synergistic Research Foundation / AQ Hurricane PCs

  2. #102
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    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by Elberoth View Post
    In native mode. I was actually wondering, what enhanced in the menu means and does.
    Hi Adam,

    The DSD Optimized Mode converts from DSD to PCM.

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases, Femto 33 Clock, Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus
    Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps
    Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7 Mk2
    Power: Two AudioQuest Niagara 5000’s with AudioQuest Dragon and Hurricane Power Cords

  3. #103
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    Re: MSB Select II

    I also prefer enhanced, even though taking me back to PCM does seem to defeat the purpose, doesn't it? Could've stuck with 24/192 in the first place...

    Comparing DSD (5.something mega) to 24/192, I preferred the latter on a Yello album (the one with "the race" on it). Both files direct from master-tape, supposedly. The 24/196 sounded more punchy, better transient attack, better dynamic rendering -- and I'm a sucker for dynamics!
    Digital: Musichi player on Minix; DAC: Ideon Audio Absolute (loan), MSB Select II, Ideon Audio Ayazi II, 2x Ideon 3R Master Time signal reclocking; Analogue: TT: Simon Yorke - Pluto 6 // Pro ject Xtension 12'΄; Preactive: Borbely Reference; Prepassive: Steven & Billington; Amplifier: Symphonic Line -- Kraft 250 class A; Speakers: Devore / vintage Etude; Cabling: homegrown, Bearlabs, Nordost Valhalla; Isolation: Neuance shelves, Nordost pulsars Rack: suspended devices

  4. #104

    Re: MSB Select II

    Actually MSB Enhanced mode is DSD via DoP.......

  5. #105
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    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingsrule View Post
    Actually MSB Enhanced mode is DSD via DoP.......
    Hi King,

    Hope you are well. Care to elaborate on this?

    The Select User Manual says the optimized mode is the DSD decimation done using a special method developed by MSB. I looked this up and this appears to mean a DSD to PCM conversion.

    I can ask Daniel Gullman if you want me to verify this.

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases, Femto 33 Clock, Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus
    Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps
    Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7 Mk2
    Power: Two AudioQuest Niagara 5000’s with AudioQuest Dragon and Hurricane Power Cords

  6. #106

    Re: MSB Select II

    Hi Ken

    Sure check with MSB but I'm sure its DSD via DoP

  7. #107
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    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingsrule View Post
    Hi Ken

    Sure check with MSB but I'm sure its DSD via DoP
    I guess this is possible. We’ll see how Daniel at MSB responds.

    From the DCS Website:

    FAQ: What is DoP (DSD over PCM)?

    The original idea for DoP was invented by dCS in 2011. It involves taking groups of 16 adjacent 1-bit samples from a DSD stream and packing them into the lower 16 bits of a 24/176.4 data stream. Data from the other channel of the stereo pair is packed the same way. A specific marker code in the top 8 bits identifies the data stream as DoP, rather than PCM. The resulting DoP stream can be transmitted through existing 24/192-capable USB, AES, Dual AES or SPDIF interfaces to a DoP-compatible DAC, which reassembles the original stereo DSD data stream COMPLETELY UNCHANGED.

    If something goes wrong and the data stream is decoded as PCM, the output will be low-level noise with faint music in the back ground, so it fails safely. This can happen if the computer erases the marker code by applying a volume adjustment.
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases, Femto 33 Clock, Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus
    Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps
    Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7 Mk2
    Power: Two AudioQuest Niagara 5000’s with AudioQuest Dragon and Hurricane Power Cords

  8. #108
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    Re: MSB Select II

    DoP is a system developed to send DSD signal from a transport to a DAC. It has nothing to do with a D/A conversion.
    Adam

    Speakers: Magico M3
    Amp: Dagostino Momentum Stereo
    Digital: Lampi Pacific + Lampi DSD Komputer
    Cables: AQ WEL Signature IC / Synergistic Research Foundation / AQ Hurricane PCs

  9. #109

    Re: MSB Select II

    DoP = DSD over PCM


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  10. #110
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    Re: MSB Select II

    For all current MSB DACs (Select, Reference, Premier and Discrete):

    "Native DSD" is the native DSD data-stream at the native sample rate (eg. 2.8224 MHz, etc...) sent directly to a large number of parallel DSD single bit DACs without manipulation (the number DSD DACs available depends on the model). The converted result is then low pass filtered in the analog domain to remove the large amount of DSD quantization noise. Analog volume control is required because there is no manipulation of the digital data.

    "Optimized DSD" removes the majority of the DSD quantization noise using digital filtering without changing the sample rate (eg. 2.8224 MHz, etc...) and then plays back the multi-bit super high sample rate data using the multi-bit capabilities of the DACs. The converted result is then low pass filtered in the analog domain to remove the very small amount of DSD quantization noise remaining. It would be accurate to call this PCM playback, but that is also an oversimplification since the "PCM" DACs are running at the native DSD sample rate and there is no sample rate conversion, just quantization noise removal. On models without analog volume control this mode also allows digital volume control.

    DOP is just a way of transporting DSD on a link such as S/PDIF that would not normally be compatible with DSD. DOP is native DSD that has been packed into a PCM container and must be unpacked by a compatible decoder at the end of the link (such as in a DAC that supports DOP). All current MSB DACs support DOP unpacking if DOP data is detected on any of the inputs.

  11. #111
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    Re: MSB Select II

    Thanks Daniel for your detailed response!

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases, Femto 33 Clock, Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus
    Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps
    Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7 Mk2
    Power: Two AudioQuest Niagara 5000’s with AudioQuest Dragon and Hurricane Power Cords

  12. #112

    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by DSMSB View Post
    For all current MSB DACs (Select, Reference, Premier and Discrete):

    "Native DSD" is the native DSD data-stream at the native sample rate (eg. 2.8224 MHz, etc...) sent directly to a large number of parallel DSD single bit DACs without manipulation (the number DSD DACs available depends on the model). The converted result is then low pass filtered in the analog domain to remove the large amount of DSD quantization noise. Analog volume control is required because there is no manipulation of the digital data.

    "Optimized DSD" removes the majority of the DSD quantization noise using digital filtering without changing the sample rate (eg. 2.8224 MHz, etc...) and then plays back the multi-bit super high sample rate data using the multi-bit capabilities of the DACs. The converted result is then low pass filtered in the analog domain to remove the very small amount of DSD quantization noise remaining. It would be accurate to call this PCM playback, but that is also an oversimplification since the "PCM" DACs are running at the native DSD sample rate and there is no sample rate conversion, just quantization noise removal. On models without analog volume control this mode also allows digital volume control.

    DOP is just a way of transporting DSD on a link such as S/PDIF that would not normally be compatible with DSD. DOP is native DSD that has been packed into a PCM container and must be unpacked by a compatible decoder at the end of the link (such as in a DAC that supports DOP). All current MSB DACs support DOP unpacking if DOP data is detected on any of the inputs.
    It looks like what I read about Optimized was incorrect. Why isn't the above in the owners manual and on the MSB website? And why doesn't MSB give this info to the MSB reviewers? (If they do, my apologies but it would be incumbent on them to make sure Optimized vs. Native is understood and reported correctly)

    So what mode does everyone prefer?

  13. #113
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    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingsrule View Post
    So what mode does everyone prefer?
    Hi King,

    I have used DSD Optimized ever since Vince from MSB did a demonstration at Axpona, flipping back and forth between the two on the Select DAC. The Optimized Mode appeared to have more presence than the Native Mode. I will have to do my own comparison on some of my favorite tracks.

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases, Femto 33 Clock, Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus
    Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps
    Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7 Mk2
    Power: Two AudioQuest Niagara 5000’s with AudioQuest Dragon and Hurricane Power Cords

  14. #114

    Re: MSB Select II

    I go back and forth but mostly listen to Optimized....

  15. #115
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    Re: MSB Select II

    I did my own comparison of DSD Native and Optimized and I’ve now switched to DSD Native. I feel it sounds more natural and conveys more ease than DSD Optimized.

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases, Femto 33 Clock, Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus
    Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps
    Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7 Mk2
    Power: Two AudioQuest Niagara 5000’s with AudioQuest Dragon and Hurricane Power Cords

  16. #116
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    Re: MSB Select II

    you guys are pushing me to revisit this dsd question. it's been a few years since i played around with it. i know dsd 'Optimized' does apply a PCM conversion of some sort.

    with the increased transparency of the Extreme TAS Alpha version maybe something will more completely sort itself out.

  17. #117
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    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
    you guys are pushing me to revisit this dsd question. it's been a few years since i played around with it. i know dsd 'Optimized' does apply a PCM conversion of some sort.

    with the increased transparency of the Extreme TAS Alpha version maybe something will more completely sort itself out.
    Not really a conversion. It uses PCM to transfer the DSD file. Think of the DSD file piggy backing on a PCM signal.


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  18. #118

    Re: MSB Select II

    I appreciate the sharings on these threads, from which I learned a great deal. Having recently listened to Discreet and Ref DAC's, I too joined the club and ordered the Select DAC & transport. Will share listening feedback in future after they arrived.

  19. #119
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    Re: MSB Select II

    Interesting....you auditioned Discrete and Reference, didn't audition Select, but bought Select? What options did you order with it?
    Speakers: Magico M3, Q3, ACC, S-SUB | Electronics: Esoteric Grandioso | Amplification: Halcro |
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    and YG Acoustics Rack 1.1 amp stands (pair)

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  20. #120

    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by brodricj View Post
    Interesting....you auditioned Discrete and Reference, didn't audition Select, but bought Select? What options did you order with it?
    Didn’t have time to listen to Select locally except in an audio show. Decided on select based on what I heard with discreet and Reference and word of mouth and forums like these. I hope I didn’t make a grave mistake. It is a bundled package nowadays except I added the proISL and the proISL/proUSB modules.


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  21. #121
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    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by Alectiong View Post
    Didn’t have time to listen to Select locally except in an audio show. Decided on select based on what I heard with discreet and Reference and word of mouth and forums like these. I hope I didn’t make a grave mistake. It is a bundled package nowadays except I added the proISL and the proISL/proUSB modules.


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    Where are you located?


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    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

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    https://suncoastaudio.com/
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  22. #122

    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Where are you located?


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    Singapore.


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