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Thread: MSB Select II

  1. #101
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    Re: MSB Select II

    In native mode. I was actually wondering, what enhanced in the menu means and does.
    Adam

    Speakers: Magico M3
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    Digital: Lampi Pacific + Lampi DSD Komputer
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  2. #102
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    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by Elberoth View Post
    In native mode. I was actually wondering, what enhanced in the menu means and does.
    Hi Adam,

    The DSD Optimized Mode converts from DSD to PCM.

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases and Femto 33 Clock; Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus; MSB UMT V Signature Transport
    Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps; MSB M204 Mono Amps
    Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7 Mk2
    Power: Two AudioQuest Niagara 5000’s with AudioQuest Dragon and Hurricane Power Cords

  3. #103
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    Re: MSB Select II

    I also prefer enhanced, even though taking me back to PCM does seem to defeat the purpose, doesn't it? Could've stuck with 24/192 in the first place...

    Comparing DSD (5.something mega) to 24/192, I preferred the latter on a Yello album (the one with "the race" on it). Both files direct from master-tape, supposedly. The 24/196 sounded more punchy, better transient attack, better dynamic rendering -- and I'm a sucker for dynamics!
    Music library: c. 4.5T digital, c.3.5k LPs & CDs
    Digital source: Optimised Mini X -- Musichi player external linear PS; DAC: (MSB Select II), Ideon Audio Ayazi II, 2x Ideon 3R Master Time signal reclocking external linear PS; Analogue source: TT: (S-Yorke S7/ S-Yorke S4 - Pluto 6) / Pro ject Xtension 12'΄; Active pre: Borbely Reference; Passive pre: Stevens & Billington; Amp: Symphonic Line Kraft; Speakers: Devore / ProAc; Cabling: Bearlabs, Nordost Valhalla, bespoke; Isolation: bespoke rack with hanging shelves, Neuance shelves, Nordost pulsar points, various cones (metal, ceramic, etc);

  4. #104

    Re: MSB Select II

    Actually MSB Enhanced mode is DSD via DoP.......

  5. #105
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    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingsrule View Post
    Actually MSB Enhanced mode is DSD via DoP.......
    Hi King,

    Hope you are well. Care to elaborate on this?

    The Select User Manual says the optimized mode is the DSD decimation done using a special method developed by MSB. I looked this up and this appears to mean a DSD to PCM conversion.

    I can ask Daniel Gullman if you want me to verify this.

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases and Femto 33 Clock; Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus; MSB UMT V Signature Transport
    Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps; MSB M204 Mono Amps
    Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7 Mk2
    Power: Two AudioQuest Niagara 5000’s with AudioQuest Dragon and Hurricane Power Cords

  6. #106

    Re: MSB Select II

    Hi Ken

    Sure check with MSB but I'm sure its DSD via DoP

  7. #107
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    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingsrule View Post
    Hi Ken

    Sure check with MSB but I'm sure its DSD via DoP
    I guess this is possible. We’ll see how Daniel at MSB responds.

    From the DCS Website:

    FAQ: What is DoP (DSD over PCM)?

    The original idea for DoP was invented by dCS in 2011. It involves taking groups of 16 adjacent 1-bit samples from a DSD stream and packing them into the lower 16 bits of a 24/176.4 data stream. Data from the other channel of the stereo pair is packed the same way. A specific marker code in the top 8 bits identifies the data stream as DoP, rather than PCM. The resulting DoP stream can be transmitted through existing 24/192-capable USB, AES, Dual AES or SPDIF interfaces to a DoP-compatible DAC, which reassembles the original stereo DSD data stream COMPLETELY UNCHANGED.

    If something goes wrong and the data stream is decoded as PCM, the output will be low-level noise with faint music in the back ground, so it fails safely. This can happen if the computer erases the marker code by applying a volume adjustment.
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases and Femto 33 Clock; Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus; MSB UMT V Signature Transport
    Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps; MSB M204 Mono Amps
    Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7 Mk2
    Power: Two AudioQuest Niagara 5000’s with AudioQuest Dragon and Hurricane Power Cords

  8. #108
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    Re: MSB Select II

    DoP is a system developed to send DSD signal from a transport to a DAC. It has nothing to do with a D/A conversion.
    Adam

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  9. #109

    Re: MSB Select II

    DoP = DSD over PCM


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  10. #110
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    Re: MSB Select II

    For all current MSB DACs (Select, Reference, Premier and Discrete):

    "Native DSD" is the native DSD data-stream at the native sample rate (eg. 2.8224 MHz, etc...) sent directly to a large number of parallel DSD single bit DACs without manipulation (the number DSD DACs available depends on the model). The converted result is then low pass filtered in the analog domain to remove the large amount of DSD quantization noise. Analog volume control is required because there is no manipulation of the digital data.

    "Optimized DSD" removes the majority of the DSD quantization noise using digital filtering without changing the sample rate (eg. 2.8224 MHz, etc...) and then plays back the multi-bit super high sample rate data using the multi-bit capabilities of the DACs. The converted result is then low pass filtered in the analog domain to remove the very small amount of DSD quantization noise remaining. It would be accurate to call this PCM playback, but that is also an oversimplification since the "PCM" DACs are running at the native DSD sample rate and there is no sample rate conversion, just quantization noise removal. On models without analog volume control this mode also allows digital volume control.

    DOP is just a way of transporting DSD on a link such as S/PDIF that would not normally be compatible with DSD. DOP is native DSD that has been packed into a PCM container and must be unpacked by a compatible decoder at the end of the link (such as in a DAC that supports DOP). All current MSB DACs support DOP unpacking if DOP data is detected on any of the inputs.

  11. #111
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    Re: MSB Select II

    Thanks Daniel for your detailed response!

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases and Femto 33 Clock; Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus; MSB UMT V Signature Transport
    Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps; MSB M204 Mono Amps
    Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7 Mk2
    Power: Two AudioQuest Niagara 5000’s with AudioQuest Dragon and Hurricane Power Cords

  12. #112

    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by DSMSB View Post
    For all current MSB DACs (Select, Reference, Premier and Discrete):

    "Native DSD" is the native DSD data-stream at the native sample rate (eg. 2.8224 MHz, etc...) sent directly to a large number of parallel DSD single bit DACs without manipulation (the number DSD DACs available depends on the model). The converted result is then low pass filtered in the analog domain to remove the large amount of DSD quantization noise. Analog volume control is required because there is no manipulation of the digital data.

    "Optimized DSD" removes the majority of the DSD quantization noise using digital filtering without changing the sample rate (eg. 2.8224 MHz, etc...) and then plays back the multi-bit super high sample rate data using the multi-bit capabilities of the DACs. The converted result is then low pass filtered in the analog domain to remove the very small amount of DSD quantization noise remaining. It would be accurate to call this PCM playback, but that is also an oversimplification since the "PCM" DACs are running at the native DSD sample rate and there is no sample rate conversion, just quantization noise removal. On models without analog volume control this mode also allows digital volume control.

    DOP is just a way of transporting DSD on a link such as S/PDIF that would not normally be compatible with DSD. DOP is native DSD that has been packed into a PCM container and must be unpacked by a compatible decoder at the end of the link (such as in a DAC that supports DOP). All current MSB DACs support DOP unpacking if DOP data is detected on any of the inputs.
    It looks like what I read about Optimized was incorrect. Why isn't the above in the owners manual and on the MSB website? And why doesn't MSB give this info to the MSB reviewers? (If they do, my apologies but it would be incumbent on them to make sure Optimized vs. Native is understood and reported correctly)

    So what mode does everyone prefer?

  13. #113
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    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingsrule View Post
    So what mode does everyone prefer?
    Hi King,

    I have used DSD Optimized ever since Vince from MSB did a demonstration at Axpona, flipping back and forth between the two on the Select DAC. The Optimized Mode appeared to have more presence than the Native Mode. I will have to do my own comparison on some of my favorite tracks.

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases and Femto 33 Clock; Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus; MSB UMT V Signature Transport
    Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps; MSB M204 Mono Amps
    Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7 Mk2
    Power: Two AudioQuest Niagara 5000’s with AudioQuest Dragon and Hurricane Power Cords

  14. #114

    Re: MSB Select II

    I go back and forth but mostly listen to Optimized....

  15. #115
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    Re: MSB Select II

    I did my own comparison of DSD Native and Optimized and I’ve now switched to DSD Native. I feel it sounds more natural and conveys more ease than DSD Optimized.

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases and Femto 33 Clock; Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus; MSB UMT V Signature Transport
    Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps; MSB M204 Mono Amps
    Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7 Mk2
    Power: Two AudioQuest Niagara 5000’s with AudioQuest Dragon and Hurricane Power Cords

  16. #116
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    Re: MSB Select II

    you guys are pushing me to revisit this dsd question. it's been a few years since i played around with it. i know dsd 'Optimized' does apply a PCM conversion of some sort.

    with the increased transparency of the Extreme TAS Alpha version maybe something will more completely sort itself out.

  17. #117
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    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
    you guys are pushing me to revisit this dsd question. it's been a few years since i played around with it. i know dsd 'Optimized' does apply a PCM conversion of some sort.

    with the increased transparency of the Extreme TAS Alpha version maybe something will more completely sort itself out.
    Not really a conversion. It uses PCM to transfer the DSD file. Think of the DSD file piggy backing on a PCM signal.


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  18. #118

    Re: MSB Select II

    I appreciate the sharings on these threads, from which I learned a great deal. Having recently listened to Discreet and Ref DAC's, I too joined the club and ordered the Select DAC & transport. Will share listening feedback in future after they arrived.

  19. #119
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    Re: MSB Select II

    Interesting....you auditioned Discrete and Reference, didn't audition Select, but bought Select? What options did you order with it?
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  20. #120

    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by brodricj View Post
    Interesting....you auditioned Discrete and Reference, didn't audition Select, but bought Select? What options did you order with it?
    Didn’t have time to listen to Select locally except in an audio show. Decided on select based on what I heard with discreet and Reference and word of mouth and forums like these. I hope I didn’t make a grave mistake. It is a bundled package nowadays except I added the proISL and the proISL/proUSB modules.


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  21. #121
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    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by Alectiong View Post
    Didn’t have time to listen to Select locally except in an audio show. Decided on select based on what I heard with discreet and Reference and word of mouth and forums like these. I hope I didn’t make a grave mistake. It is a bundled package nowadays except I added the proISL and the proISL/proUSB modules.


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    Where are you located?


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  22. #122

    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Where are you located?


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  23. #123
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    Re: MSB Select II

    I just purchased a lightly used MSB UMT V Signature Transport with two power bases. It is built like a tank. The transport has a solid aluminum tray and is based on the Oppo BDP-105D. The two power bases are really heavy. They feel like solid blocks of aluminum.

    I think the sound quality of my Select II DAC with Renderer V2 Module and Roon Nucleus Plus is terrific but the asynchronous transport with its proprietary Pro I2S connection surpasses it in transparency, ease and noise floor. Stunning vocals and instrumentals emanate from dead silence. The noise floor isn’t quite as low as MSB’s new Pro ISL optical connection but having listened to this transport and the new Reference Transport, I can tell you that sonically, it is damn close. The Pro ISL optical connection really excels when used with the Pro USB Module for computer audio, where electrical noise is much more of an issue than on the transport.

    Consequently, I am very happy with this purchase as I can now spin CDs and SACDs again, and have improved sound quality for a fraction of the price of the Reference Transport.

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases and Femto 33 Clock; Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus; MSB UMT V Signature Transport
    Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps; MSB M204 Mono Amps
    Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7 Mk2
    Power: Two AudioQuest Niagara 5000’s with AudioQuest Dragon and Hurricane Power Cords

  24. #124
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    Re: MSB Select II

    Very interesting


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  25. #125
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    Re: MSB Select II

    Isn't it shocking how much component to component noise there is between audio equipment.

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    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post
    Isn't it shocking how much component to component noise there is between audio equipment.
    It’s Roon. I keep telling you guys. Roon is noisy as hell. Ken finally heard the difference this weekend.


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  27. #127
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    Re: MSB Select II

    I don't doubt that at all Mike. I dumped Roon a long time ago. Qubuz direct and HQ Player direct. Although I don't like HQ 4. I liked 3 a lot better.

  28. #128
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    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    It’s Roon. I keep telling you guys. Roon is noisy as hell. Ken finally heard the difference this weekend.


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    Would using HQPlayer processing in Roon reduce the noise that you referred to?

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases and Femto 33 Clock; Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus; MSB UMT V Signature Transport
    Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps; MSB M204 Mono Amps
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  29. #129
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    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post
    I don't doubt that at all Mike. I dumped Roon a long time ago. Qubuz direct and HQ Player direct. Although I don't like HQ 4. I liked 3 a lot better.
    How do you stream qobuz directly without Roon ?


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  30. #130
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    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by no32 View Post
    How do you stream qobuz directly without Roon ?


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    Aurender


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  31. #131
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    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by no32 View Post
    How do you stream qobuz directly without Roon ?


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    My server is Linux based. The manufacturer added the link.

    Sometimes I though I missed Roon. But of late, I find a lot more music I like by reading the various What Are You Listening To Now threads in forums and going to what members are suggesting.
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  32. #132
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    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    It’s Roon. I keep telling you guys. Roon is noisy as hell. Ken finally heard the difference this weekend.


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    Mike,
    Have you soured on Roon? Have you stopped recommending it to your customers? I am streaming Tidal directly on my Lumin player. Do you think that is superior to using Roon as an interface?
    Anshul

  33. #133
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    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by apdoc2004 View Post
    Mike,
    Have you soured on Roon? Have you stopped recommending it to your customers? I am streaming Tidal directly on my Lumin player. Do you think that is superior to using Roon as an interface?
    Anshul
    If they want the best sound, yes we recommend something other than Roon. If they want the best interface, no, Roon’s has the best interface.

    Many of our devices are Roon enabled - including preamps with built in DAC’s. If someone wants the all in one with Roon solution, fine. We will help them get the best sound from Roon. If they want the best sound overall, then no, Roon is not the direction we recommend.

    I guess you haven’t been following. MSB Select II. I’ve been pretty vocal about my concerns with Roon and overall sound quality for quite some time. Their customer support has also been highly lacking. The Taiko guys agree about the Roon sonics and their own software is miles better sonically.

    Yes, I think you should try the Lumin app.




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  34. #134
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    Re: MSB Select II

    I went from Lumin to Roon back to Lumin. For the same reasons Mike mentioned.

    If I had Esoteric (N-01XD) or any Aurender, I would use their music app VS Roon.

    I do like the Roon user interface but that’s it.
    _______________

    Mike

  35. #135

    Re: MSB Select II

    Roon thru the Taiko Extreme, especially with the latest driver update, is pretty good...
    "We all know real when we hear it"

  36. #136
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    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingsrule View Post
    Roon thru the Taiko Extreme, especially with the latest driver update, is pretty good...
    I would hope a ~$30k solution would sound better than Roon for under $3k. Same goes for Aurrender's W20SE answer at ~$20k.

    I can tell you that the Innuos Statement in a A/B in my set-up running with and without Roon wasn't better.
    Jim

    D'Agostino Momentum M-400's & HD Pre-amp
    Wilson Alexandria X2 Series 2 speakers
    Digital: dCS Vivaldi DAC, Clock & Upsampler
    Analog: SME 20/3 with Esoteric E-03 Phono
    Transparent Opus Speaker Cable & Interconnects & Opus Power Cords
    Power Cords on Digital: Shunyata
    Power Conditioner - Shunyata Everest

  37. #137

    Re: MSB Select II

    It's like anything the better stuff costs more
    U have like $30k + in Shunyata and Transparent... basically copper wire and band-aids. And u scoff at 30k for real hardware, 24Tb of storage, real software and amazing support? Oh yea and best in class sonics....


    Really missing your point
    "We all know real when we hear it"

  38. #138
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    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingsrule View Post
    It's like anything the better stuff costs more
    U have like $30k + in Shunyata and Transparent... basically copper wire and band-aids. And u scoff at 30k for real hardware, 24Tb of storage, real software and amazing support? Oh yea and best in class sonics....


    Really missing your point
    You usually do.
    Jim

    D'Agostino Momentum M-400's & HD Pre-amp
    Wilson Alexandria X2 Series 2 speakers
    Digital: dCS Vivaldi DAC, Clock & Upsampler
    Analog: SME 20/3 with Esoteric E-03 Phono
    Transparent Opus Speaker Cable & Interconnects & Opus Power Cords
    Power Cords on Digital: Shunyata
    Power Conditioner - Shunyata Everest

  39. #139
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    1,109

    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by still-one View Post
    I would hope a ~$30k solution would sound better than Roon for under $3k. Same goes for Aurrender's W20SE answer at ~$20k.

    I can tell you that the Innuos Statement in a A/B in my set-up running with and without Roon wasn't better.
    Interesting. Was the experience, play a song via roon, then play same song via Qobuz application? How did you analyze the playback.

  40. #140
    Senior Member
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    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritmo View Post
    I went from Lumin to Roon back to Lumin. For the same reasons Mike mentioned.

    If I had Esoteric (N-01XD) or any Aurender, I would use their music app VS Roon.

    I do like the Roon user interface but that’s it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingsrule View Post
    Roon thru the Taiko Extreme, especially with the latest driver update, is pretty good...

    Quote Originally Posted by still-one View Post
    I would hope a ~$30k solution would sound better than Roon for under $3k. Same goes for Aurrender's W20SE answer at ~$20k.

    I can tell you that the Innuos Statement in a A/B in my set-up running with and without Roon wasn't better.
    not to butt into your fun. but what each of you are saying does not actually conflict.

    just say'n.

    Kingsrule can like how Roon sounds (as do i) on his Extreme/MSB Select II (and still like another music management program better (TAS)) and still-one can prefer the Lumin to Roon. you can both be right as there is no conflict. apples and oranges. maybe if still-one actually dislikes Roon (which he does not say.......he merely says he likes the interface, not that he dislikes Roon......Roon maybe is 'meh' to him). one man's 'meh' is another man's like. Kingrule does not claim he likes Roon 'best'.

    this is a weak basis for conflict.

  41. #141
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    Re: MSB Select II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post
    Interesting. Was the experience, play a song via roon, then play same song via Qobuz application? How did you analyze the playback.
    it's very easy to switch back and forth between Roon and TAS music management systems to A/B tracks with the Taiko Extreme.

    and Quboz is a music streaming service inside Roon or TAS. you see the Quboz in both systems. maybe Quboz has it's own playback program, but i've not tried it or heard of anyone using it.

  42. #142
    Senior Member
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    1,109

    Re: MSB Select II

    I had JRiver loaded to my machine today. The most brief listen left me wondering if I could tell JRiver from HQ Player 4. I heard more of a positive shift changing my USB cable than the playback software.
    First Sound Mark3SI preamp. Audion Black Shadow 845 SET Monoblocks. Mojo Audio Deja Vu Server. Mojo Audio Mystic 3 DAC. Linear Solution Ethernet Switch. Gigafoil with LPS. STST Motus II TT with Vertere SG1 arm, Hana ML Cartridge, Allnic H1201 phono pre. Pure Audio Project Trio 15 Horn speakers with Mundord Supreme oil caps. Power via 10 awg Oyaide cable from panel to custom distribution strip feeding front end. Oyaide dedicated10 AWG branch circuits from panel to each amp. Inakustik speaker and interconnect cables, Genesis Interconnect.

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