MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

**thyname** · May 13, 2019, 10:21 PM

Granted, I only have two days with my new Discrete. I got both modules from dealer, with the understanding that I will eventually keep only one.

The regular USB Quad / MQA module, and the current v2 Renderer module.

I know the Renderer is supposed to sound better, as everyone (including the dealer) say so, but for some reason I prefer the USB module.

My USB configuration: Using my Innuos ZENith MK3 as Roon server and streamer, Synergistic Research Atmosphere X Reference USB cable out to MSB Discrete. Sablon Ethernet cable from my fiber media converters to ZENith.

For The Renderer module, identical Ethernet cable to MSB. And Innuos only being a Roon server.

What gives?

**kzhtoo** · May 14, 2019, 12:44 AM

Originally Posted by thyname

Granted, I only have two days with my new Discrete. I got both modules from dealer, with the understanding that I will eventually keep only one.

The regular USB Quad / MQA module, and the current v2 Renderer module.

I know the Renderer is supposed to sound better, as everyone (including the dealer) say so, but for some reason I prefer the USB module.

My USB configuration: Using my Innuos ZENith MK3 as Roon server and streamer, Synergistic Research Atmosphere X Reference USB cable out to MSB Discrete. Sablon Ethernet cable from my fiber media converters to ZENith.

For The Renderer module, identical Ethernet cable to MSB. And Innuos only being a Roon server.

What gives?

Add a Gigafoil between your router/switch and MSB renderer module, you’ll flip 180’.

**Mike** · May 14, 2019, 01:42 AM

Originally Posted by kzhtoo

Add a Gigafoil between your router/switch and MSB renderer module, you’ll flip 180’.

Agreed.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**thyname** · May 14, 2019, 07:03 AM

Well... I already have dual fiber media converters implemented for a while now, powered by a SOtM sPs-1000 linear power supply. Should accomplish similar thing with the GigaFoil.

My plan is to get the Uptone Audio etherRegen when it launches in a couple of months. It has been delayed a few times though

**kzhtoo** · May 14, 2019, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by thyname

Well... I already have dual fiber media converters implemented for a while now, powered by a SOtM sPs-1000 linear power supply. Should accomplish similar thing with the GigaFoil.

My plan is to get the Uptone Audio etherRegen when it launches in a couple of months. It has been delayed a few times though

Did you happen to also look at SOtM sNH-10G switch? I’m considering that one.

I also power my Apple Airport Express with Teddy Pardo power supply. But when I added Gagafoil + Keces, the improvement is not subtle.

**thyname** · May 14, 2019, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by kzhtoo

Did you happen to also look at SOtM sNH-10G switch? I’m considering that one.

I also power my Apple Airport Express with Teddy Pardo power supply. But when I added Gagafoil + Keces, the improvement is not subtle.

I did look at the new SOtM switch, but it's too expensive. The etherRegen is supposed to be cheaper. Rumors are about $600-$650

As I said before, I do have dual fiber media converters from TPLink that I use for electric isolation of Ethernet lines, similar in concept with what the GigaFoil does

**Alpinist** · May 14, 2019, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by kzhtoo

Did you happen to also look at SOtM sNH-10G switch? I’m considering that one.

I also power my Apple Airport Express with Teddy Pardo power supply. But when I added Gagafoil + Keces, the improvement is not subtle.

I’m planning on purchasing the SOtM switch and using the clock output from my Select DAC to clock the switch. Someone is already doing this and says it sounds phenomenal. A bigger improvement than even adding the Ethernet Filter.

Ken

**kzhtoo** · May 14, 2019, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Alpinist

I’m planning on purchasing the SOtM switch and using the clock output from my Select DAC to clock the switch. Someone has already doing this and says it sounds phenomenal. A bigger improvement than even adding the Ethernet Filter.

Ken

Hi Ken, the same reason I’m also considering this switch. But your Select clock may be vastly different than my Discrete clock from word sync output.

**Alpinist** · May 14, 2019, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by kzhtoo

Hi Ken, the same reason I’m also considering this switch. But your Select clock may be vastly different than my Discrete clock from word sync output.

I have the Femto 33 clock but I would suspect that any clock MSB utilizes would be superior to the SOtM clock.

Ken

**Kingsrule** · May 14, 2019, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by thyname

I did look at the new SOtM switch, but it's too expensive. The etherRegen is supposed to be cheaper. Rumors are about $600-$650

As I said before, I do have dual fiber media converters from TPLink that I use for electric isolation of Ethernet lines, similar in concept with what the GigaFoil does

Not even close. I had a similar setup...The Gigafoil does much,much more. Forget the switch and get a Gigafoil first

**thyname** · May 14, 2019, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by Kingsrule

Not even close. I had a similar setup...The Gigafoil does much,much more. Forget the switch and get a Gigafoil first

That may be 100% right. And I realize that. I was very close to purchasing the GigaFoil, but I decided to wait for etherRegen, which is supposed to do much more than what gigaFoil does.

**Kingsrule** · May 14, 2019, 05:20 PM

TP Link converters sound bad. 10Gtek much better. And u cannot use 1000mb on the V2 renderer. Its 100
How r u powering them? Stock wall wart is bad, iFi better, Sbooster types much better still....all easily heard with MSB. What ethernet cable after the TP Links? Thats important also.
Many over at Audiophile Style take a different light on things.....caveat emptor my friend......

**thyname** · May 14, 2019, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by Kingsrule

TP Link converters sound bad. 10Gtek much better
How r u powering them? Stock wall wart is bad, iFi better, Sbooster types much better still....all easily heard with MSB. What ethernet cable after the TP Links? Thats important also.
Many over at Audiophile Style take a different light on things.....caveat emptor my friend......

I am using a SOtM sPS-1000 linear power supply to power them.

The Ethernet Cable is Sablon Panatela : http://www.sablonaudio.com/index.php/signal but I am thinking of upgrading to a Synergistic Research Atmosphere X Reference Ethernet Cable, after the great experience I had with same line USB cable from SR.

**Adyc** · May 14, 2019, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by Alpinist

I’m planning on purchasing the SOtM switch and using the clock output from my Select DAC to clock the switch. Someone is already doing this and says it sounds phenomenal. A bigger improvement than even adding the Ethernet Filter.

Ken

I check with Jonathan from MSB. They are not compatible. Select DAC will not reclock the switch. This is his wordings

No, the Select cannot generate a 10MHz clock. A 10MHz clock is not useful for audio conversion as audio is not recorded at a division of 10MHz.

I assume you got the SOtM switch? This seems to be popular with the need for a 10MHz clock.

**Alpinist** · May 14, 2019, 07:42 PM

F

Originally Posted by Adyc

I check with Jonathan from MSB. They are not compatible. Select DAC will not reclock the switch. This is his wordings

No, the Select cannot generate a 10MHz clock. A 10MHz clock is not useful for audio conversion as audio is not recorded at a division of 10MHz.

I assume you got the SOtM switch? This seems to be popular with the need for a 10MHz clock.

No, I have not purchased the SOtM switch yet. I have spoken with Alex from Alma Audio. He is currently using the SOtM switch and clocking off the Word Sync Output (44/48) on his Select II DAC. He cannot explain why it works because the frequencies don’t match, only that it does and it sounds phenomenal.

Ken

**KeithR** · May 14, 2019, 10:00 PM

Don’t think you need a GigaFoil with an Innuos with isolated Ethernet.

**thyname** · May 14, 2019, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by KeithR

Don’t think you need a GigaFoil with an Innuos with isolated Ethernet.

‘Can you please elaborate? I think my ZENith MK3 still benefits from full isolation from electrical noise.

**Mike** · May 15, 2019, 01:57 AM

I had the pleasure of sitting next to an Innuos employee on the shuttle one morning here in Munich. We talked at length for about 20 minutes and at the end, concluded, in an Ethernet only environment, the GigaFoil/Keces did the same thing as the Innuos from an Ethernet filtering standpoint. Their main competition is Aurender and Melco.

I still want to get one to try though.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**thyname** · May 15, 2019, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

I had the pleasure of sitting next to an Innuos employee on the shuttle one morning here in Munich. We talked at length for about 20 minutes and at the end, concluded, in an Ethernet only environment, the GigaFoil/Keces did the same thing as the Innuos from an Ethernet filtering standpoint. Their main competition is Aurender and Melco.

I still want to get one to try though.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So Mike you are saying if one has an Innuos ZENith or ZEN, there is no need for putting a GigaFoil v4 on the Ethernet line feeding the Innuos? Even when the Innuos is used as both streamer and renderer (feeding a DAC via USB cable)?

Thanks!

**Mike** · May 15, 2019, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by thyname

So Mike you are saying if one has an Innuos ZENith or ZEN, there is no need for putting a GigaFoil v4 on the Ethernet line feeding the Innuos? Even when the Innuos is used as both streamer and renderer (feeding a DAC via USB cable)?

Thanks!

That we never discussed. I was looking at it the other way: “what benefit would the Innuos provide if one is using the GigaFoil/Keces to the MSB Roon Renderer module?” The answer we concluded was none. But you know, I still want to try.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**thyname** · May 15, 2019, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

That we never discussed. I was looking at it the other way: “what benefit would the Innuos provide if one is using the GigaFoil/Keces to the MSB Roon Renderer module?” The answer we concluded was none.

I understand. But you need something to run a Roon Core (server), right? And an Innuos does a great job at that, even if only used as a server, and NOT a renderer. Obviously, it can be used for both, as Roon Core and Roon Endpoint (renderer, streamer, call it what you want).

And yes, I do believe from my own experience that servers matter. Be it an Innuos or the Roon's own Nucleus.

So, since I already have an Innuos (the ZENith MK3) that I use with Roon, and therefore there is no decision to be made whether I should buy one, the question becomes: when using an Innuos as a Server and Rendererer, does adding a GigaFoil on the Ethernet line feeding the Innuos improve anything? Honest question, as I don't know.

As for the MSB Discrete, it happened to be that the unit I have comes with both modules (USB and Renderer) with an understanding that I would keep only one. As my original post says, I am leaning towards keeping the USB module, as my USB streaming setup is already in place through my Innuos ZENith MK3 and my USB cable (so no decision to be made here), and SQ wise, I hear a slightly better sound, albeit subtle, vs. the Renderer module on my MSB. Perhaps adding a gigaFoil will improve the things with the Renderer module on my MSB. However, maybe adding the same GF on the Ethernet line to my Innuos unit will also improve things? I don't know...

**Mike** · May 15, 2019, 10:55 AM

Yes, Roon Nucleus+

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**Alpinist** · May 15, 2019, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Adyc

I check with Jonathan from MSB. They are not compatible. Select DAC will not reclock the switch. This is his wordings

No, the Select cannot generate a 10MHz clock. A 10MHz clock is not useful for audio conversion as audio is not recorded at a division of 10MHz.

I assume you got the SOtM switch? This seems to be popular with the need for a 10MHz clock.

Originally Posted by Alpinist

F

No, I have not purchased the SOtM switch yet. I have spoken with Alex from Alma Audio. He is currently using the SOtM switch and clocking off the Word Sync Output (44/48) on his Select II DAC. He cannot explain why it works because the frequencies don’t match, only that it does and it sounds phenomenal.

Ken

I spoke with Alex again and your point is a valid one. The clocking may not be working off the Select DAC’s Word Sync Output. It may be defaulting to the switch’s internal clock module. Trying to figure out what drove the improvement. Stay tuned.

Ken

**KeithR** · May 15, 2019, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by thyname

‘Can you please elaborate? I think my ZENith MK3 still benefits from full isolation from electrical noise.

Built-in isolated ethernet is doing something similar to a Gigafoil.

As Mike said, you can still try one and see which works better. I'm of the simpler is usually better mentality so didn't bother.

**kzhtoo** · May 15, 2019, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by Alpinist

I spoke with Alex again and your point is a valid one. The clocking may not be working off the Select DAC’s Word Sync Output. It may be defaulting to the switch’s internal clock module. Trying to figure out what drove the improvement. Stay tuned.

Ken

Thanks Ken. I will be looking forward to your additional findings.

**Adyc** · May 15, 2019, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by Alpinist

I spoke with Alex again and your point is a valid one. The clocking may not be working off the Select DAC’s Word Sync Output. It may be defaulting to the switch’s internal clock module. Trying to figure out what drove the improvement. Stay tuned.

Ken

So far the only data point is from Alex. If you finally decide to buy SOTM switch with clock, please let us know your impressions. Love to have more data points.

**Alpinist** · May 15, 2019, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by Adyc

So far the only data point is from Alex. If you finally decide to buy SOTM switch with clock, please let us know your impressions. Love to have more data points.

Will do, Adyc. I’m still weighing my options as far as the SOtM switch is concerned. When you add the power supply and external Cybershaft clock, it ends up being a lot of boxes and space on the rack. It could be well worth it though.

Ken

**Adyc** · May 15, 2019, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by Alpinist

Will do, Adyc. I’m still weighing my options as far as the SOtM switch is concerned. When you add the power supply and external Cybershaft clock, it ends up being a lot of boxes and space on the rack. It could be well worth it though.

Ken

Will all extra boxes, the cost adds up quickly. ProUSB seems theoretically better and it is cheaper and occupies much less space!

**Alpinist** · May 16, 2019, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by Adyc

Will all extra boxes, the cost adds up quickly. ProUSB seems theoretically better and it is cheaper and occupies much less space!

I’ve read the Pro USB is really good and eliminates the need for the optical ethernet filter. I’m really happy with the sound quality of the Renderer V2 in conjunction with the GigaFoilv4 Ethernet Filter. Adding the two Keces LPS has also made a nice difference. I’ll hold out for the Renderer V3, which should have an optical connection like the Pro USB.

Ken

**thyname** · May 16, 2019, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by Alpinist

I’ll hold out for the Renderer V3, which should have an optical connection like the Pro USB.

Ken

Are there rumors for this? If so, when is it expected to launch?

**Alpinist** · May 16, 2019, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by thyname

Are there rumors for this? If so, when is it expected to launch?

Nothing that I’ve heard thus far.

Ken

Thread: MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!