The Ultimate MAGICO Experience for Audioshark Members - Saturday August 27, 2016

**Mike** · September 10, 2016, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by kiwi_1282001

LoL. Brilliant.

We can add the double bass and many orchestral instruments – all with ported cabinets (nee sound holes) which enable them to project their sound more efficiently at low frequencies and with greater acoustic power and headroom via the physics of energy release rather than attempted containment.

I guess it depends on whether you look at speakers as a musical instrument or mechanical instrument. It comes down to the whole theory of introducing colorations into the music from ports and vibrating cabinets. Not saying one is right and one is wrong, as ultimately it's a preference. If you're the type of person who is seeking out the purest (as in least coloration), best measuring dynamic speaker that exhibits SOTA cabinet design, then Magico is definitely on your short list.

The other thing about sealed vs ported is the drivers. Sealed drivers have to be built to a much higher tolerances and standards because they are subjected to much more stress. Can't get away with $20 drivers in a sealed box.

**Mike** · September 10, 2016, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by still-one

Mike
As an example I doubt there is any way one of the larger Magico speakers would ever sound optimal in MF's listening room. It is too small. With Wilson's he is able to adjust/direct the mid's and tweeter drivers towards his listening position to "help" offset the small room size.

I have no desire to debate the ported versus sealed enclosure issue. IMO it is all set-up and room dependent.

That's true. I have seen his room and it's less than ideal. Angling the mid and tweet can allow a user to theoretically sit closer to the speaker. I would love to hear his system. I can't believe he doesn't have some real challenges.

**a.wayne** · September 10, 2016, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

Very room and setup dependent. I've found REAR ported designs can cause more problems than downward or front ported designs and I've had very little problems setting up sealed designs.

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Ported speakers excite the room differently , so a bit more care is necessary when setting them up , rear ports have advantages but are sensitive to distance from the rear wall , front ports are better for near field listening but have to be sized right in order to not color the sound , due to out of bandwidth enclosure noise.

when done and setup correctly they are pretty good IMO, when comparing to acoustic bass Instrument reproduction ..

**a.wayne** · September 10, 2016, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

I guess it depends on whether you look at speakers as a musical instrument or mechanical instrument. It comes down to the whole theory of introducing colorations into the music from ports and vibrating cabinets. Not saying one is right and one is wrong, as ultimately it's a preference. If you're the type of person who is seeking out the purest (as in least coloration), best measuring dynamic speaker that exhibits SOTA cabinet design, then Magico is definitely on your short list.

The other thing about sealed vs ported is the drivers. Sealed drivers have to be built to a much higher tolerances and standards because they are subjected to much more stress. Can't get away with $20 drivers in a sealed box.

What are these additional stresses over vented woofers mike ?

Vented do have a 6db gain over sealed in the bass , so better on low watt stuff , not to mention what happens to MMS when a sealed cabinet hits resonance ...

Sealed will require more woofers to have the same db level in the bass , their advantages is a lower frequency roll off and no phase inversion at port resonance , port phase inversion is a red herring, as most if not all are not sensitive to it , what they are sensitive to is a poorly designed port with too much out off bandpass THD and noise due to too high a cutoff and poor port ratios , coloring and interfering with the midrange, rear porting eliminates most of the noise /coloration issues, Not to mention , the multiple different type of ported designs available when ( low pressure /high) designing...

Sealed speakers are pretty simple to get right , selecting the driver and desired cabinet Q make them pretty straight forward , 2 woofers are required to produce the same bass level per watt of a ( same size drivers ) vented design , the two woofer setup also lowers thd over one , but add complexities ...

I view sealed vs ported as different means to achieve desired design goals , their strenghts and weakeness's, more dependent on design goals and application...

iPhone .. I hope not too abreviated , Im all typed out ..

**kiwi_1282001** · September 10, 2016, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

I guess it depends on whether you look at speakers as a musical instrument or mechanical instrument. It comes down to the whole theory of introducing colorations into the music from ports and vibrating cabinets. Not saying one is right and one is wrong, as ultimately it's a preference. If you're the type of person who is seeking out the purest (as in least coloration), best measuring dynamic speaker that exhibits SOTA cabinet design, then Magico is definitely on your short list.

The other thing about sealed vs ported is the drivers. Sealed drivers have to be built to a much higher tolerances and standards because they are subjected to much more stress. Can't get away with $20 drivers in a sealed box.

Mike,

Fully agree that there is no absolute right or wrong on the sealed vs. ported loudspeaker design debate and ultimately preference will play a role. Magico will never have the bass slam of Wilson and its interesting to note a growing trend among Magico owners to add supplemental sub-woofers.

It is true that ports can add coloration and noise as can unwanted vibration from any source, but much comes down to design execution and room interface because as low distortion as any loudspeaker design (sealed or ported) may be – once the soundwave is launched in the room – the room will colour the sound far more than the loudspeaker.

I am looking forward to reading Mr. Valin’s observations on the Magico M3 at his own digs. I do enjoy his writing style which unlike many reviewers attempts to describe how everything sounds instead of long-winded descriptions of everything else.

**a.wayne** · September 10, 2016, 11:03 AM

Ahhh , cant fully Subscribe to woofer non linearities at low frequency between the two unless you are exceeding woofer xmax , there are timing issue thou with excessive excursion vs not , hence why large woofers in large cabinets with small peak to peak is more desirable than small , eq , high xmax driven woofers ...

Imo, ymmv,

**kzhtoo** · September 10, 2016, 11:08 AM

Kiwi,
Have you had a chance with a newer Magico (Q/S series) in your room? I think the quality of sealed bass will surprise you. I understand and have no intention to argue over ported design over sealed design - 6db more, better slam, etc, but IMO the quality of bass I get from properly made sealed design like S3's is several levels above the bass I used to get with ported designs, at least in my room. And at times, better quantity as well. My point is unless you try a properly designed sealed speaker in your room, there really isn't a way of knowing what sealed bass is all about.

**a.wayne** · September 10, 2016, 11:20 AM

Sealed vs ported compared to what ? live acoustic instruments or what one likes , if the latter, they are all winners ..

**Mike** · September 10, 2016, 11:35 PM

Interesting read here: http://www.soundstageultra.com/index...a-vivid-wilson

**metaphacts** · September 11, 2016, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

Interesting read here: http://www.soundstageultra.com/index...a-vivid-wilson

"Overall, I like the speakers on your list and could see you liking them, too. Of course, you will have to listen to each to really know. It has been my experience that once you do that, one of the models will appeal to you more than the others and it will make the buying decision relatively easy. Window-shopping online rarely offers clarity on a purchase of this magnitude. Good luck with your decision and please do let me know how it works out."

At the end of the day (and the article), Jeff sums it up perfectly.

**tunes** · September 14, 2016, 08:39 AM

Sircom's visit to Magico.
http://absolutehiend.com/ahe_files/pdf/Magico.pdf
Kronos, ch, soulution, constellation, wow!

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**tunes** · September 14, 2016, 08:50 AM

Duplicate post. Sorry!

**Nataraja** · September 15, 2016, 03:56 AM

Gentlemen, would you please make a comparison between the new Magico М3 and the S5mkII?
Do you think the performance difference justifies the price? In what areas do you think M3 is vastly superb and is there anything (except the price) you think the S5mkII are better at?
What about the room? Do you think both models are suitable for the same size rooms, or one of them should perform better in smaller/larger one?
Please share your detailed opinion - i`m sure it would be interesting for many users here.

Thank you!

**joeinid** · September 15, 2016, 10:45 AM

Welcome Nataraja, thank you for joining.

**Mike** · September 15, 2016, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by Nataraja

Gentlemen, would you please make a comparison between the new Magico М3 and the S5mkII?
Do you think the performance difference justifies the price? In what areas do you think M3 is vastly superb and is there anything (except the price) you think the S5mkII are better at?
What about the room? Do you think both models are suitable for the same size rooms, or one of them should perform better in smaller/larger one?
Please share your detailed opinion - i`m sure it would be interesting for many users here.

Thank you!

Hi Nataraja - welcome!

My M3's are in transit and will be arriving next week. Having only heard them at Magico HQ, it's difficult to draw any significant comparisons. But based on what I've heard, the M3's do a complete disappearing act. They have improved drivers and most importantly seamless driver integration (so good, that they must be heard to be believed).

Is the price difference justified? To me....HELL YES! But we are talking about M3's which cost almost double the S5 mk2's - a very capable and amazing speaker in their own right.

I would put it to you this way: if you are going for the best speaker under $50k, the S5 mk2 is definitely on a very very short list and probably at the top. If you are going for the best speaker under $100k, the M3 is again on a very very short list.

I will note one more thing. Unlike the Q series, which seemed to be polarizing - some loved it, others not so much and those that weren't keen on the Q series in turn, often gravitated toward the S series. I personally feel the M3 will in fact be MORE popular than the S series and appeal to an even larger audience - if that makes sense. They are that good.

The M3 also will work as well, maybe even a little better, in small to large rooms. The footprint of the M3 is perfect. Not too big, not too small....you know the rest!

In the 24 x 33 sized room at Magico (a BIG room), the M3's performed brilliantly. I would have no hesitation putting them in a 12 x 15 up to a 24 x 33 room and everything in between.

I am SUPER excited to be getting mine next week.

Mike

**the professor** · September 15, 2016, 02:27 PM

The M3 is the first Magico speaker that I truly believe I could live with for the long haul.

I keep reading that the S5 mk2 are close to the M3s - I don't agree at all. I think that people are saying the S5 mk2 is close just to make the S5 mk2 owners feel better. And I don't get why S5 owners would be upset - the M3s are twice the price of the S5 mk2s, and in my opinion they are way better than twice better in sound.

The M3s should be a must listen to anybody wanting a speaker over $50,000. And that includes the Q7 etc. range of speakers.

**Nataraja** · September 15, 2016, 03:34 PM

Thank you all!
So you think there is nothing that S5 mk2 do better than the M3.
How about the lowest frequencies and the sound pressure.
I noticed that the demo in Magico`s room included two mighty Magico subs, but since their room is so big, i guess in a smaller space M3 would be absolutely adequate on their own.

Mike, i`m eager to read your impressions and comparison between the two models, when the M3 arrive. And i`m more than curious how they pair with Vitus.

**Mike** · September 15, 2016, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Nataraja

Thank you all!
So you think there is nothing that S5 mk2 do better than the M3.
How about the lowest frequencies and the sound pressure.
I noticed that the demo in Magico`s room included two mighty Magico subs, but since their room is so big, i guess in a smaller space M3 would be absolutely adequate on their own.

Mike, i`m eager to read your impressions and comparison between the two models, when the M3 arrive. And i`m more than curious how they pair with Vitus.

We listened to the M3's mostly without the subs. Like you, I was curious about the low end. I was shocked at how good the bass was. Tight, bass, balanced, punchy and most importantly, incredibly detailed. A kick drum sounded like a real kick drum!

The M3 is superior in the "rattle your ass" department...but it's close. As Ian (MadFloyd) always tells me, "Mike, nothing beats Magico bass."

**Melbguy1** · September 15, 2016, 03:58 PM

At twice the price of the S5 Mk2's, in theory atleast the M3's should be twice as good as the S5 Mk2. However the law of diminishing returns still applies, so I'd expect the S5 Mk2's would hold their own, perhaps even get close to the M3's in one or two areas. Actually, the two speakers share some commonality; the S5 Mk2 uses exactly the same midrange drivers as the M3 (Part No: MAG6004RTC), as well as the copper woofer coupling system, computer-modeled polymer midrange enclosure & machined, 3D convex top plate.

Apropos which, I'm auditioning the M3's this weekend at my Dealer's showroom which should be a revelation!

.

**the professor** · September 15, 2016, 04:02 PM

I agree with Mike. The M3s without subs were more than adequate in Magico's large room. Alon played some really loud passages and there was no strain at all from the M3s.

**still-one** · September 15, 2016, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by Melbguy1

The M3's at twice the price of the S5 Mk2 should be twice as good as the S5 Mk2 in theory. .

I think you left out the smiley face at the end of this sentence. Nowhere is audio do ratios apply. Unfortunately it often works the other way.

**Melbguy1** · September 15, 2016, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by still-one

I think you left out the smiley face at the end of this sentence. Nowhere is audio do ratios apply. Unfortunately it often works the other way.

Indeed, the law of diminishing returns certainly applies, and Magico is not immune. Though more than any other high end company I know, Magico offer great cost/performance at every price point in their range.

**kzhtoo** · September 15, 2016, 07:16 PM

Yes, nothing beats Magico bass.

The Ultimate MAGICO Experience for Audioshark Members - Saturday August 27, 2016

**CharlesL** · September 15, 2016, 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by kzhtoo

Yes, nothing beats Magico bass.

+1, especially in articulation and coherence with the upper ranges.

**hieukm** · September 15, 2016, 10:48 PM

Hi all,

Its my first post and i am very curious about Mike comment that the M3 will fit in a 12x15 room which exactly is my room dimension. I currently have a S1 mk2 but really want to upgrade to M3 as a long time speaker. However, i have been put off by the thought that M3 maybe oversize for my room.

**Mike** · September 15, 2016, 11:13 PM

Hi hieukm, welcome!

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**hieukm** · September 16, 2016, 12:18 AM

Hi Mike,

Appreciate if you can elaborate your thought on the M3 on a small room(15x12).

**XV-1** · September 16, 2016, 04:58 AM

Originally Posted by Melbguy1

Indeed, the law of diminishing returns certainly applies, and Magico is not immune. Though more than any other high end company I know, Magico offer great cost/performance at every price point in their range.

Your back Bodhi . Play nice

**Mike** · September 16, 2016, 06:01 AM

Originally Posted by hieukm

Hi Mike,

Appreciate if you can elaborate your thought on the M3 on a small room(15x12).

The M3's are not a large speaker (footprint). The sealed box also helps accommodate them into a smaller room. You would obviously want to try them in your particular room to be sure.

**hieukm** · September 16, 2016, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

The M3's are not a large speaker (footprint). The sealed box also helps accommodate them into a smaller room. You would obviously want to try them in your particular room to be sure.

Yes Mike. Thank you very much. The area I was wondering the most is whether the soundstage depth, width can be improved in comparison to my current S1 mk2 which already fill up the room quite good.

My room is well treated.

P/S: sry to bother with such simple question because auditioning the speakers in my area is very difficult as dealer dont carry stock.

**Mike** · September 16, 2016, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by hieukm

Yes Mike. Thank you very much. The area I was wondering the most is whether the soundstage depth, width can be improved in comparison to my current S1 mk2 which already fill up the room quite good.

My room is well treated.

P/S: sry to bother with such simple question because auditioning the speakers in my area is very difficult as dealer dont carry stock.

I personally find that Magico's respond to soundstage depth directly proportional to the amount they are into the room. So, you may have to give up something. That being said, I bet it will be similar to your S1 mk2's. I'll have a much better idea once I get my pair next week and start playing with them.

**a.wayne** · September 16, 2016, 12:15 PM

Good Stuff Mike, are you setting them upstairs ..?

**Mike** · September 16, 2016, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by a.wayne

Good Stuff Mike, are you setting them upstairs ..?

Only if you come back down and help me carry them up.

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**a.wayne** · September 16, 2016, 04:23 PM

LOL, OK i will bring my engine hoist..

I heard sealed woofers work best outdoors next to pools .....Suggestion to Alon, make them in 2 or 3 sections, coupled mass will be the same and you wont need the Avengers.

**Mike** · September 16, 2016, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by a.wayne

LOL, OK i will bring my engine hoist..

I heard sealed woofers work best outdoors next to pools .....Suggestion to Alon, make them in 2 or 3 sections, coupled mass will be the same and you wont need the Avengers.

You're thinking of the Devialet Phantom.

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**Alectiong** · September 18, 2016, 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by Melbguy1

At twice the price of the S5 Mk2's, in theory atleast the M3's should be twice as good as the S5 Mk2. However the law of diminishing returns still applies, so I'd expect the S5 Mk2's would hold their own, perhaps even get close to the M3's in one or two areas. Actually, the two speakers share some commonality; the S5 Mk2 uses exactly the same midrange drivers as the M3 (Part No: MAG6004RTC), as well as the copper woofer coupling system, computer-modeled polymer midrange enclosure & machined, 3D convex top plate.

Apropos which, I'm auditioning the M3's this weekend at my Dealer's showroom which should be a revelation!

.

Melbguy1, would you please share your listening impression?

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**Melbguy1** · September 18, 2016, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by Alectiong

Melbguy1, would you please share your listening impression?

Alectiong, my Dealer had an International visitor this weekend, so the audition was off. But i've got an audition locked in for next Saturday to listen to this exact setup. I must admit, even via crappy pc speakers, those things sound punchy, dynamic & articulate as hell. Can't wait!

**madfloyd** · September 18, 2016, 11:25 AM

Great video. Sounds like the dart is driving the M3's very well...

**Rhapsody** · September 18, 2016, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by Nataraja

Thank you all!
So you think there is nothing that S5 mk2 do better than the M3.
How about the lowest frequencies and the sound pressure.
I noticed that the demo in Magico`s room included two mighty Magico subs, but since their room is so big, i guess in a smaller space M3 would be absolutely adequate on their own.

Mike, i`m eager to read your impressions and comparison between the two models, when the M3 arrive. And i`m more than curious how they pair with Vitus.

Here is Vitus SL102 and SM102 mono running in Class A driving the M3's

https://www.audionirvana.org/forum/t...speaker-thread

**Mike** · September 18, 2016, 11:40 AM

We need video!

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**Mike** · September 18, 2016, 11:54 AM

My M3's are in transit. Will get them this week. Anxious to try them with Vitus and VAC.

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**Rhapsody** · September 18, 2016, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

We need video!

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I would never do video of my M3's or at Magico. imho you have to be in the room to have the correct impression and experience. I spent 9 hours with Alon at Magico this last Wednesday. I ordered two Q15 subs, not for the bass, but the extra 10' of depth, out through the back wall and you already get 10' deep through the back wall of depth, and the overall soundstage presence that the subs matched with the M3's deliver.

I have over 500 hours on the M3's and they are jaw dropping, at least the 20 people that have heard them dropped their jaws, but they actually were jaw dropping almost out of the crate.

**Mike** · September 18, 2016, 12:19 PM

I'll take a video when I get mine.

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**Rhapsody** · September 18, 2016, 01:53 PM

That will be great to see the video and I would invite anyone that is in NYC to stop in for a listen and a substantial experience.

**Mike** · September 18, 2016, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by Melbguy1

Alectiong, my Dealer had an International visitor this weekend, so the audition was off. But i've got an audition locked in for next Saturday to listen to this exact setup. I must admit, even via crappy pc speakers, those things sound punchy, dynamic & articulate as hell. Can't wait!

I wonder if they got the MPOD's?

Also - is that a CH preamp or DAC?

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**Alectiong** · September 18, 2016, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

I wonder if they got the MPOD's?

Also - is that a CH preamp or DAC?

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The video sounds clean and punchy. Would be interested to hear the bass extension. I heard it goes down to 25hz? If you are going to pay so much money, would be nice to get the last octave and be full range, in my opinion.

**Rhapsody** · September 18, 2016, 08:59 PM

This is exactly why I would not do a video of the M3's. The M3's produce a 22' wide soundstage in my 17' wide room, depth way out through the back wall, layer instruments with pinpoint precision, on a 3D holographic soundstage, with all SS electronics, have world class bass, resolution out the whazoo and are natural sounding, and so musically involving. You can't get these attributes from a video and then you get impressions that are made and passed on from the videos.

I understand videos are part of the audio game, but it's very misleading in this case as the M3's are so capable and it cannot come across in a video.....not saying I'm right, just giving my opinion.

**Alectiong** · September 18, 2016, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by Rhapsody

This is exactly why I would not do a video of the M3's. The M3's produce a 22' wide soundstage in my 17' wide room, depth way out through the back wall, layer instruments with pinpoint precision, on a 3D holographic soundstage, with all SS electronics, have world class bass, resolution out the whazoo and are natural sounding, musically involving and have soul. You can't get these attributes from a video and then you get impressions that are made and passed on from the videos.

I understand videos are part of the audio game, but it's very misleading in this case as the M3's are so capable and it cannot come across in a video.....not saying I'm right, just giving my opinion.

Sounds like a game changer! What SS amp is used in your room? What do you mean when you say it has soul?
Regards

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**Rhapsody** · September 18, 2016, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by Alectiong

Sounds like a game changer! What SS amp is used in your room? What do you mean when you say it has soul?
Regards

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It actually is a game changer, in my estimation. Vitus SM102's or SM011's. I used the wrong term, people have been loving Magicos for 10 years for a reason, they have always been great speakers and continue to be. The M3 attributes of being full bodied, transparent BUT with weight, great midbass, natural, captivating, musically involving, an easy emotional connection to the music is very special. The M3's are great speakers, but really Alon has been making great speakers for years now.

**Mike** · September 18, 2016, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by Alectiong

The video sounds clean and punchy. Would be interested to hear the bass extension. I heard it goes down to 25hz? If you are going to pay so much money, would be nice to get the last octave and be full range, in my opinion.

The bass is the most surprising thing to me. I was really impressed, low, tight, fast and most importantly really well defined (kick drums sounded like they were in the room and so real).

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