Thread: Magico S5 mk2

Originally Posted by LVB

What is really is impressive is the S3 figure of distortion at 63Hz. It is 3 times lower then the Alexia, a ported design, which suppose to put less stress on the woofers.

Better parts. Better drivers. Better design. Better measurable results.


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Originally Posted by LVB

the 3 green numbers at 63/3K/10KHz are the distortion figures. On the S3 the 3K and 10K they measure less then lab ability to capture, we are talking amplifier territory- a big deal for a mechanical device.

this isn't that big of a deal. there is a reason JA doesn't even provide this data.

Originally Posted by a.wayne

Thanks for the response and data, The Step response shows a discontinuity relative to and both aren't time align designs , So Hmmmm. What were the distortion numbers on the WA and i could not tell if they were tested at 1 watt or not ........


Regards..

Here is a real suite of measurements on the Alexia:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/w...2sYfi6h62bP.97

Originally Posted by LVB

It is a very big deal, at least according to everyone who does measure distortions, and there are quite a few, Martin Colloms, one of the fathers of loudspeaker design, is one of them - otherwise why would they bother to do that? I can respect your admiration of JA, but his methods are not more (or less) valid than anyone else. He does not measure distortion because he most likely does not have the proper environment to do so (he may have other explanations, again I don't know, obviously others do believe in it).

It's interesting, but down the list of important factors - both Dr. Toole and JA agree here. Also, Magicos (and others) compress at higher volumes so what does that THD even relate to? JA on the subject:

Harmonic Distortion
There is considerable discussion in the literature of nonlinear (harmonic) distortion in loudspeaker behavior [46, 47, 48]. All loudspeakers have nonlinear distortion, and small, inexpensive loudspeakers tend to have more nonlinear distortion than large, expensive loudspeakers. Perversely, I don't think this is that important a factor in loudspeaker performance. I have measured loudspeaker harmonic distortion spectra when listening tests had suggested that it was unusually high or low [49, 50]. I have also investigated distortion when I have found a loudspeaker producing audible sub-harmonics, tones whose frequencies are an integral fraction, one half, one third, one quarter, of the fundamental [51]. In a presentation at the 1989 Audio Engineering Society Convention in New York, the mathematician Manfred Schroeder postulated that the production of subharmonics is often related to the presence of chaotic behavior in a diaphragm. This latter phenomenon can be heard on Stereophile's Test CD 2, Track 25.


But of all the loudspeakers that have been reviewed in Stereophile in the past eight years, there are only a few in which noticeable levels of harmonic distortion have been associated with negative review findings. However, I do conjecture that listeners use overall distortion to set a comfortable playback level. If a loudspeaker has high intrinsic distortion, hence a limited dynamic range, it won't be played as loud. Once the level of harmonic distortion rises above a threshold (probably one that is different for each listener), the listener reaches for the volume-control knob. I realize, of course, that my opinions on this subject will be controversial.

Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/m...ymAjHy2otmZ.99

I think Doug Schneider does an excellent job describing why speaker measurements aren't the panacea some look for:

http://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/opinion/852-why-i-don-t-infer-a-speaker-s-sound-from-its-measurements

My own opinion has evolved on the subject, but psychoacoutics has a large role in speaker selection - for instance, I find B&Ws bright while many consider them mellow as the dip in FR is dependent on the subject's response. Some trebles are too flat at extension which comes off as analytical to some, great resolution to others.

Wilson changed the voicing of their speakers significantly in the past 5 years. This was in response to D. Wilson working with the Vienna Philharmonic - what measurements were associated with those?

And then I know people who would never own a Wilson or Magico as they are panel fans and hate the lack of coherency despite smooth step responses.

And we haven't even discussed driver material, which measurements don't tell the whole story.

Originally Posted by KeithR

It's interesting, but down the list of important factors - both Dr. Toole and JA agree here. Also, Magicos (and others) compress at higher volumes so what does that THD even relate to? JA on the subject:

Harmonic Distortion
There is considerable discussion in the literature of nonlinear (harmonic) distortion in loudspeaker behavior [46, 47, 48]. All loudspeakers have nonlinear distortion, and small, inexpensive loudspeakers tend to have more nonlinear distortion than large, expensive loudspeakers. Perversely, I don't think this is that important a factor in loudspeaker performance. I have measured loudspeaker harmonic distortion spectra when listening tests had suggested that it was unusually high or low [49, 50]. I have also investigated distortion when I have found a loudspeaker producing audible sub-harmonics, tones whose frequencies are an integral fraction, one half, one third, one quarter, of the fundamental [51]. In a presentation at the 1989 Audio Engineering Society Convention in New York, the mathematician Manfred Schroeder postulated that the production of subharmonics is often related to the presence of chaotic behavior in a diaphragm. This latter phenomenon can be heard on Stereophile's Test CD 2, Track 25.


But of all the loudspeakers that have been reviewed in Stereophile in the past eight years, there are only a few in which noticeable levels of harmonic distortion have been associated with negative review findings. However, I do conjecture that listeners use overall distortion to set a comfortable playback level. If a loudspeaker has high intrinsic distortion, hence a limited dynamic range, it won't be played as loud. Once the level of harmonic distortion rises above a threshold (probably one that is different for each listener), the listener reaches for the volume-control knob. I realize, of course, that my opinions on this subject will be controversial.

Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/m...ymAjHy2otmZ.99

I think Doug Schneider does an excellent job describing why speaker measurements aren't the panacea some look for:

http://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/opinion/852-why-i-don-t-infer-a-speaker-s-sound-from-its-measurements

My own opinion has evolved on the subject, but psychoacoutics has a large role in speaker selection - for instance, I find B&Ws bright while many consider them mellow as the dip in FR is dependent on the subject's response. Some trebles are too flat at extension which comes off as analytical to some, great resolution to others.

Wilson changed the voicing of their speakers significantly in the past 5 years. This was in response to D. Wilson working with the Vienna Philharmonic - what measurements were associated with those?

And then I know people who would never own a Wilson or Magico as they are panel fans and hate the lack of coherency despite smooth step responses.

And we haven't even discussed driver material, which measurements don't tell the whole story.

Keith, do you find Magico speakers lack coherency? I find them to be the most coherent multi driver speakers that I have heard.

I have heard the Mini 2 (own it), the V2, V3, M5, Q1, Q3, Q5, Q7, S1, S5, S7 and M Pro (extensively).

The V3 was the least coherent in my experience. The M5 was superb, the Mini 2 disappears (as all great mini monitors should). The Q series sounds very coherent (of a whole) to me. The S7 and M Pro were also. The S series perhaps not quite as much as the Q, but as far as an entire range or line from one manufacturer, I find them to be extremely coherent sounding, though individual models certainly sound different from each other in other areas.

The M5, Q3 and M Pro are the largest speakers that I have ever heard completely disappear as sound sources. Extraordinary. Of course, this did have a lot to do with proper set up in the room.

Tonal balance is sometimes quite apparent and different depending on set up and system, but the driver integration almost always was near seamless, except for the V3, in my experience.

Originally Posted by Mike

Wow. That's impressive. Can't even measure the distortion? Magico definitely is constantly pushing the envelope in speaker engineering.

If there is anyone who can speak from experience about Magico distortion at high volume then it is me.

I accidentally turned my preamp to the max one night, and I was just sitting there absolutely amazed at how a speaker could play so LOUD, yet still sound fantastic. I was literally being pounded by the music while it sounded as good as at lower volume levels. Unfortunately, after some time the high volume broke the speakers, but they sounded great until then.

Originally Posted by a.wayne

BTW at what level does THD in speakers and Audio in general become audible......

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=2962

Originally Posted by kzhtoo

If S3's are time incoherent, I don't hear it. They sound a lot more coherent than all the speakers that passed through my room and those that I heard at the dealers. In fact, that is the trait that I am in awe every day, not the midrange and/or frequency extreme performance, but as a whole the manner they reproduce music. Everyday I scratched my head how they could sound effortless and at ease with my Pass XA30.8 amp.

Congratulations. Your system must sound fantastic. Magico/Pass is a great combination. I've got the Mini II and Pass XA160.5. Effortless and very natural sounding.

Originally Posted by BlueFox

If there is anyone who can speak from experience about Magico distortion at high volume then it is me.

I accidentally turned my preamp to the max one night, and I was just sitting there absolutely amazed at how a speaker could play so LOUD, yet still sound fantastic. I was literally being pounded by the music while it sounded as good as at lower volume levels. Unfortunately, after some time the high volume broke the speakers, but they sounded great until then.

Bud - are you joining us on August 28th at Magico?


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Originally Posted by Mike

Bud - are you joining us on August 28th at Magico?

If you are going to be in Hayward then I would love to be there. I certainly know how to get there. Count me in.

Originally Posted by kzhtoo

Thank you, Peter. I follow and admire your mini 2 system on various forums. I also hope Magico make "Q2" or "M2" just for you.

Thanks. Glad to read that someone is following my posts. I'd call it a "Mini M". For the M Pro owner who wants a great, smaller second system, or for the guy with a small room who wants great sound. I just don't know if Magico thinks the market would be big enough for such a speaker.

Originally Posted by kzhtoo

If S3's are time incoherent, I don't hear it. They sound a lot more coherent than all the speakers that passed through my room and those that I heard at the dealers. In fact, that is the trait that I am in awe every day, not the midrange and/or frequency extreme performance, but as a whole the manner they reproduce music. Everyday I scratched my head how they could sound effortless and at ease with my Pass XA30.8 amp.

What speakers are incoherent to you?

Originally Posted by PeterA

Keith, do you find Magico speakers lack coherency? I find them to be the most coherent multi driver speakers that I have heard.

Not particularly, but I'm not a coherency nut like a lot of panel guys. In fact, I've always wanted to purchase used M5s as I wasn't a fan of the Q series at all. Unfortunately they require an arc welder to drive

My Magico experience most recently was with the S5 on all Vac gear and the tweeter definitely drew attention to itself in that dealer setup. Perhaps less toe-in or whatnot would have alleviated that concern. I also didn't find them particularly dynamic, despite monster tube amps, which is a key buying criteria for me.

Originally Posted by KeithR

Not particularly, but I'm not a coherency nut like a lot of panel guys. In fact, I've always wanted to purchase used M5s as I wasn't a fan of the Q series at all. Unfortunately they require an arc welder to drive

My Magico experience most recently was with the S5 on all Vac gear and the tweeter definitely drew attention to itself in that dealer setup. Perhaps less toe-in or whatnot would have alleviated that concern. I also didn't find them particularly dynamic, despite monster tube amps, which is a key buying criteria for me.

My friend has a pair of Martin Logans. I don't know the model but it is a panel with a cone woofer in an enclosure below. I never thought this speaker was very coherent. I could always hear the woofer separate from the panel. The two do not seem very well integrated, imo, so he has tried to modify the crossover pretty extensively. This is only limited experience with panels.

I also heard a pair of Altec horns with a massive woofer. The guy had them set up for near field listening and there was no coherency. Cello sounded very strange.

Driver integration and coherency is an interesting issue and can really destroy the sense of believability of a system.

Originally Posted by kzhtoo

I didn't say a particular speaker is time incoherent. I don't in fact know how to even define it. What I said was S3's sound more time coherent to me than many speakers that I heard or owned. That's a big difference than saying Wilson and Magico are not time coherent.

When I think of a speaker being "coherent" sounding, it sounds as a whole, or as one unified piece, to me, and it is not possible to identify individual drivers when listening to the system. It just sounds natural and it often disappears from the room or soundstage. This is different from a tweeter sounding "hot" which to me is more of a tonal balance issue.

The Magico S3 is one of the few Magicos that I have not had the pleasure of hearing.

Originally Posted by PeterA

When I think of a speaker being "coherent" sounding, it sounds as a whole, or as one unified piece, to me, and it is not possible to identify individual drivers when listening to the system. It just sounds natural and it often disappears from the room or soundstage. This is different from a tweeter sounding "hot" which to me is more of a tonal balance issue.

Correct, and I hope I didn't imply otherwise.

having owned a full range driver based system for a long time, I really start to hear things in certain systems - particularly bothersome when I can hear an instrument coming out of a particular driver.

people who I know who are really sensitive to it tend to prefer gentle sloped, lower order crossovers as well.

Hi Mike .I am in the process of changing my speakers . As someone who has owned Magico S5and 5 MKII , could you tell me what are the differences between the two Thank you

Originally Posted by nonesup

Hi Mike .I am in the process of changing my speakers . As someone who has owned Magico S5and 5 MKII , could you tell me what are the differences between the two Thank you

The midrange and tweeter are vastly improved in the mk2 version. All drivers are also much better integrated. Nothing stands out. It all blends beautifully. If you have a good Magico dealer in Spain, I encourage you to go and hear the S5 mk2 speaker for yourself.

The new tweeter is home run !


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El importador para España, se encuentra ahora en la sala principal, el Proyecto M.
Dijo que en septiembre estarán dispuestos a escuchar, el S5 MKII.
Saludos

Sorry I wrote in Spanish.

The importer for Spain, is now in its main hall, the M Project.
He says that in September, the S5 MKII will be available for your hearing

At last !

And we haven't forgotten the hardware: John Atkinson waxes lyrical over the Magico S5 Mk.II speaker; Ken Micallef does likewise over the unique NEAT Iota Alpha; Mikey Fremer drives his Wilsons with humongous Boulder monoblocks; Art Dudley and Herb Reichert listen to idiosyncratic digital components from EAR and Schiit; and Herb Reichert auditions Rega's new Planar 3 LP player.

Looks like he liked them

Like the fact that I do have a digital subscription, just dropped into my inbox.


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All this Magico S5 v2 talk has me working with Mike on getting a pair for me.

Originally Posted by BlueFox

All this Magico S5 v2 talk has me working with Mike on getting a pair for me.

Right on!

Now the hard part....








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Originally Posted by Mike

Right on!

Now the hard part....








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Color WAS the hardest choice. Picking the s5 mk2 was the easy choice . Also, working with Mike was the easy choice ! Good luck Bud!!


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Just read Atkinson's review, I think he liked them .


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