Thread: Magico Pricing

It seems you are assuming and yourself judging what I meant.

I was stating an opinion from my own experience, including the myriad moments in my own life and this hobby where I have done exactly what I have written.

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Originally Posted by SCAudiophile

It seems you are assuming and yourself judging what I meant.

I was stating an opinion from my own experience, including the myriad moments in my own life and this hobby where I have done exactly what I have written.

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You must have missed the part where I said my post was not aimed at you but was a comment in general.

Sorry....yes I did.

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Originally Posted by SCAudiophile

Sorry....yes I did.

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No worries - all good.

Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute

And that is there right to pay what ever they want, even if others think they spent too much. Who are we to judge how they spend their own money?

I would't spend $120K on a car when a Honda or Toyota will get people to the same place just as fine. But I don't judge people who for for they choose to spend their money or what makes them happy.

I wouldn't spend $100 for a steak at a steak house when I can cook one just as good and pay $25 for it from Costco. Again, I won't judge them for it or call it a 'rip off'. People sure do waste a lot of time and energy being mad about how other people choose to spend their money (not aimed at you).

Yeah now ask what watch everyone is wearing. Same deal, a $25 Timex tells the same time as a $20K Rolex, but some people have the need to say "I have a Rolex" It is no different with every other luxury item out there including audio.

Originally Posted by Shadowfax

Yeah now ask what watch everyone is wearing. Same deal, a $25 Timex tells the same time as a $20K Rolex, but some people have the need to say "I have a Rolex" It is no different with every other luxury item out there including audio.

so I guess everyone should work there whole life and not enjoy the fruit of there labor, gotcha

Originally Posted by brodricj

A2A also took Siltech, Crystal Cable and Pillium from him. Against that he's picked up Bladelius. BTW I'm really happy with Bladelius, it's proving to be a very good pairing with M3. Basically the Bladelius ASK has taken over from my seven box Esoteric Grandioso stack.

Yeah, as I said the distribution mode has changed with the new distributor. A2A bought a sea container of everything from Magico, including M9. That must have been a $2M order. Prices went up, despite shipping cost going down (Magico use to be air freighted to order, now by sea freight and one of everything kept in stock).

That is obviously how they got the agency - bought a lot of kit up front.

They also bought a lot of kit from Naim and Focal, which I guess they didn't sell all of - hence Naim Statement amps and 40% off and Focal Grant Utopia @ 180k off retail - everyone is moaning that it's trashing the brand - probably overpriced to start with - but definitely the best Naim and Focal pricing available globally at this point.

Originally Posted by Porsche

so I guess everyone should work there whole life and not enjoy the fruit of there labor, gotcha

That is not at all what I said. I was just pointing out that we have the same issue with all luxury items AND how different people feel about them. On another site, Vintage Majority usually tells anyone who asks not to buy new because vintage is better and cheaper. Then those same people post all their expensive watches in another thread. It's all about priorities and for some status.

And although my opinion is that there are many things way over priced, they will always remain that way as long as people buy them, and they will. I don't think the Manufacturer is Ripping anyone off because as said above, nobody is holding a gun to your head to purchase said item. But in reality, there are CEOs making what their employees make in a year, in a day or a week. That is pure Capitalism, Legal yet Immoral. Greed!

Originally Posted by Shadowfax

That is not at all what I said. I was just pointing out that we have the same issue with all luxury items AND how different people feel about them. On another site, Vintage Majority usually tells anyone who asks not to buy new because vintage is better and cheaper. Then those same people post all their expensive watches in another thread. It's all about priorities and for some status.

And although my opinion is that there are many things way over priced, they will always remain that way as long as people buy them, and they will. I don't think the Manufacturer is Ripping anyone off because as said above, nobody is holding a gun to your head to purchase said item. But in reality, there are CEOs making what their employees make in a year, in a day or a week. That is pure Capitalism, Legal yet Immoral. Greed!

This is the second time now in this thread you have called Capitalism immoral. Keep it up, you are sounding like a socialist every time you make that statement and you are trying to turn this thread into political posturing.

Originally Posted by mep

This is the second time now in this thread you have called Capitalism immoral. Keep it up, you are sounding like a socialist every time you make that statement and you are trying to turn this thread into political posturing.

exactly

Originally Posted by mep

This is the second time now in this thread you have called Capitalism immoral. Keep it up, you are sounding like a socialist every time you make that statement and you are trying to turn this thread into political posturing.

Morality has nothing to do with politics, or does it in your case? Only you have brought up politics. Capitalism can be and is a good thing because it allows for other than state run businesses. It just isn't right when a CEO makes a 1000 times more than the people doing the work. If we don't agree, fine, that is what makes the world go round.

I find it ironic that anyone in high end audio and probably having other nice expensive "toys" and possessions, a nice house in a desirable place with the freedom to post whatever they like would intimate or flat out assert that Capitalism is immoral!

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There also seems to be a recurring assertion by some that a price is not a rip-off if someone chooses not to pay it. A price on something can still be a rip off in and of itself. The person electing not to pay it is a separate circumstance. These two topics are being conflated incorrectly, IMHO.

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Originally Posted by SCAudiophile

I find it ironic that anyone in high end audio and probably having other nice expensive "toys" and possessions, a nice house in a desirable place with the freedom to post whatever they like would intimate or flat out assert that Capitalism is immoral!

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Let me revise a little bit, "Can be"

Originally Posted by Shadowfax

Let me revise a little bit, "Can be"

Humans certainly can be....regardless of inanimate (non-human) economic system.

Exactly

Con artists rip people all the time - and just because somebody falls for it doesn't subtract from the fact it's a rip off.

IN NO WAY am I saying that Magico is a rip off. I only say this in this thread because it's so far away from its original topic.

The ongoing effects of runaway inflation are causing a distortion in our price perception.


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"IN NO WAY am I saying that Magico is a rip off. I only say this in this thread because it's so far away from its original topic."

Good point, same here for my posts, not implying Magico pricing is a rip-off.

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Originally Posted by Mike

The ongoing effects of runaway inflation are causing a distortion in our price perception.


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Stop using facts and logic. You should know better than to try and do that.

Originally Posted by kzhtoo

this! Just because no one is pointing a gun to your face, it doesn’t mean something isn’t a rip-off.

There's a difference between saying a price for a commodity is a rip off vice saying you bought something and were ripped off as a result of your purchase.

Originally Posted by Mike

The ongoing effects of runaway inflation are causing a distortion in our price perception.


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This timely post came up in a thread on another forum I am following.

Post-Gotta love inflation

Reply-which is very often just price gouging.

Originally Posted by Mike

The ongoing effects of runaway inflation are causing a distortion in our price perception.


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It's not all "perception". It is true that inflation has run up and costs have increased bringing them legitimate needs to increase prices. By the same token,
you cannot convince me that all these audio and speaker manufacturers (cables, etc..) just so happen to design and build amps, others components, speakers
whose price increases purportedly due to these factors happen such that they all result in eye-popping big jumps in prices into the same or eerily similar price bands.

I will stay away from naming brand and model names as this seems to be happening across the industry all under the guise of inflation/costs/"CODB"/etc however
I believe I've noticed more than a few examples of "unnatural gymnastics" with some interesting coincidences happening in product range and price ladders out there
with special attention paid toward speakers and amps & preamps in particular.

Originally Posted by SCAudiophile

It's not all "perception". It is true that inflation has run up and costs have increased bringing them legitimate needs to increase prices. By the same token,
you cannot convince me that all these audio and speaker manufacturers (cables, etc..) just so happen to design and build amps, others components, speakers
whose price increases purportedly due to these factors happen such that they all result in eye-popping big jumps in prices into the same or eerily similar price bands.

I will stay away from naming brand and model names as this seems to be happening across the industry all under the guise of inflation/costs/"CODB"/etc however
I believe I've noticed more than a few examples of "unnatural gymnastics" with some interesting coincidences happening in product range and price ladders out there
with special attention paid toward speakers and amps & preamps in particular.

Cables I’ll leave alone. But generally, everything is affected by inflation. Everything. The bulk dog food we buy was always $99. For years. It’s now $140. It went $120, $130, $140. Inflation is the biggest middle class tax. Look at the price of a dozen eggs. Everything is affected. Have you priced a pool lately? Insane.


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Pricing a pool (or the house with it) is enough to make ya want to go jump in the lake .

Though I'm a properly rabid audionut with respect to cables, we can definitely agree to leave cables out of this

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Originally Posted by Mike

Cables I’ll leave alone. But generally, everything is affected by inflation. Everything. The bulk dog food we buy was always $99. For years. It’s now $140. It went $120, $130, $140. Inflation is the biggest middle class tax. Look at the price of a dozen eggs. Everything is affected. Have you priced a pool lately? Insane.


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Current rate prices will double every 7 yrs ..!

Originally Posted by a.wayne

Current rate prices will double every 7 yrs ..!

Only if the poor economic policy decisions of the last 2.5 years continue to be made. As an example look at how much energy cost have gone up and interest rates are at the highest in 40 years due to these decision. The inflation rate prior to the last 2.5 years was virtually nil (have you priced food lately? It's insane). Debt just hit $33 TRILLION for the first time in history. People seem to forget the biggest driver of inflation. Blame the source - not the people who are harmed by these decision and then adjust prices accordingly (businesses and consumers).

Not regarding Magico specifically I went out early in the year considering a couple hi-end brands and was told by the dealers of the brands the business model was to raise the prices 3% each quarter and if I was if I was interested I should move quick. Who knows maybe 3% a quarter will help used value, but for me hearing that price structure form 3 different dealers about 3 different brands was a reality check.

Originally Posted by steve59

Not regarding Magico specifically I went out early in the year considering a couple hi-end brands and was told by the dealers of the brands the business model was to raise the prices 3% each quarter and if I was if I was interested I should move quick. Who knows maybe 3% a quarter will help used value, but for me hearing that price structure form 3 different dealers about 3 different brands was a reality check.

That sounds about right - trying to keep up with inflation as best as possible in real-time.

Thats 12% a year while my job is 2.5-3% so it just leaves me 0 room for error

Originally Posted by steve59

Thats 12% a year while my job is 2.5-3% so it just leaves me 0 room for error

Yup. That's why people have effectively been going backwards in real wages the last 2.5 years - their raises can't keep up with the inflation.

Good news is you can do well in the used market. I just sold a bicycle I bought 3 years ago for exactly what I paid for it as it now sells for $1500 more than when I bought it.

Has anyone for half a second stopped to think of things a different way with respect to the new S3?

The reality is, the new S3 is FAR closer to an M3 than it’s predecessor. Diamond coated beryllium tweeter, far heavier speaker with higher grade aluminum structure, graphene cones, neodymium under-hang motors, the best Mundorf crossover parts and more.

Maybe if this speaker was called the T3, people would be focusing on the real trickle down from the M series instead of comparing it to the old S3, which in reality, there is no comparison.


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I heard the new S3 in Munich a few months back; it was really impressive.

Originally Posted by Mike

Cables I’ll leave alone. But generally, everything is affected by inflation. Everything. The bulk dog food we buy was always $99. For years. It’s now $140. It went $120, $130, $140. Inflation is the biggest middle class tax. Look at the price of a dozen eggs. Everything is affected. Have you priced a pool lately? Insane.


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Inflation is everywhere. Just today I went to a local Macy’s store to kill some time while waiting for a movie in the theater next door. Was floored to see the Polo polos that used to be $59 for $110!

Sadly, the elevated prices are here to stay unless the economy crashes.

Originally Posted by Mike

Has anyone for half a second stopped to think of things a different way with respect to the new S3?

The reality is, the new S3 is FAR closer to an M3 than it’s predecessor. Diamond coated beryllium tweeter, far heavier speaker with higher grade aluminum structure, graphene cones, neodymium under-hang motors, the best Mundorf crossover parts and more.

Maybe if this speaker was called the T3, people would be focusing on the real trickle down from the M series instead of comparing it to the old S3, which in reality, there is no comparison.


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Had the chance to audition the Magico S3 2023 last Friday. Peter Mackay was on hand to moderate. Set up with Boulder electronics (1110 preamp, 2160 amp, 812 DAC), Nordost Odin 2 cables and the new Nordost QBase Reference power distribution system. While I know the S3 had a bit to go with regard to break in, it was extraordinarily musical and engaging. The speakers disappeared in the room, with unfettered dynamics, and surprisingly extended bass considering their size. The soundstage was simultaneously wide and tall extending to the limits of the room. Depth of imaging was a bit shallow but I attribute that in part to the electronics but primarily to the need for additional break in. I will return for another listen when the speakers have another 100 hours or so of run-in but as Mike suggests, the new S3 is a significant leap forward from its predecessor. This sort of achievement does not come without significant investments in research and development, testing, materials technology, industrial design, etc, the list goes on and on.

IMO, considering the performance envelope of the S3, it will stand up to comparison with speakers well beyond its price point. Whether it is fairly priced or not is an individual decision. Having heard it first hand I think it is.

Originally Posted by Mike

The ongoing effects of runaway inflation are causing a distortion in our price perception.


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Really Mike?

What is the inflation rate in the US last 10 years?
US monthly inflation rate: 2012 – 2023

The average inflation rate for the past 10 years is 2.65%. The Federal Reserve sets target inflation at 2% for medium term economic stability.

Originally Posted by XV-1

Really Mike?

What is the inflation rate in the US last 10 years?
US monthly inflation rate: 2012 – 2023

The average inflation rate for the past 10 years is 2.65%. The Federal Reserve sets target inflation at 2% for medium term economic stability.

A 10 year average has nothing to do with current realities, or in this case, the past 24 months. The past two years inflation has gone from 1.5% to 8%. The CPI average has risen nearly 13% in the past 2 years. Butter and Eggs have risen 51% and 54% respectively. Bread is up 23%. Must be all those greedy farmers huh? They’re in cahoots with those audio manufacturers. Bread, butter, eggs and speakers!

All raw material costs, including aluminum has sky rocketed. Add to this wage increases. Admittedly, they are lagging inflation as a whole, but we were seeing 8% increases in wages, something unheard of 2, 5 or 10 years ago.

The bright side? I think inflation fears are beginning to ease as its meteoric rise has begun to ease. But the Skelton lurking in the closet is interest rates. It has literally halted housing sales. We need interest rates back down around 4% or a wee bit lower.


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Originally Posted by XV-1

Really Mike?

What is the inflation rate in the US last 10 years?
US monthly inflation rate: 2012 – 2023

The average inflation rate for the past 10 years is 2.65%. The Federal Reserve sets target inflation at 2% for medium term economic stability.

Wow. You can't use an average like that. We hade REAL inflation rate (not the picking and choosing from the federal reserve) of about 2% under the previous administration. The Real Inflation rate (which takes into account things the FR ignores but is a part of every day life) under the current administration has been about 30%

The average American while making gains in real wages under the previous administration has been loosing about $10K per year under the current administration. The average food bill for the average American Family as reported by the Wall Street Journal has increased under the current administration by over $500 PER MONTH.

So while I'm not here to talk politics, when you as a non US resident spout off info that is completely false it needs to be corrected. I respectfully suggest you don't tell us about the economic disaster of the last several years we are trying to navigate through while you sit abroad.

Here is the government inflation rate numbers which means they are lower than actual real world numbers as they only account for a small sample of prices, but since you wanted to quote, here you go:

"Since President Biden took office, prices have increased cumulatively by 17.4 percent, while hourly wages have increased only 13 percent. In looking at the past seven presidents, only Jimmy Carter had a bigger inflation rate, 26.2 percent, at a similar point in his presidency."

August 2023 Using CBO numbers:

Inflation is up more than 15 percent.
The cost of groceries for Americans has risen approximately 50 percent.
U.S. gas prices are up nearly 62 percent.
Natural gas prices are up more than 40 percent.
Interest rates highest since 1985. Home mortgages were at 2.7% three years ago and are 8% now making home buying unaffordable

THIS IS NOT ABOUT POLITICS OR A PARTICULAR PARTY BUT INSTEAD ABOUT REAL INFLATION HITTING US ALL

Excellent post, maps to daily reality.

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I think we all can say we expected some inflation after the US government handed out so much money during covid,. I'm as politically ignorant as possible for my own personal mental health, but could see inflation coming. On the + side a year ago my MM acct was paying nothing on $100k and now is paying around $500 a month. I'm sure it's not keeping up with inflation, but it does cover the difference in groceries, lol

Enough to have you shop Wal-Mart? LOL

Originally Posted by Ritmo

Inflation is everywhere. Just today I went to a local Macy’s store to kill some time while waiting for a movie in the theater next door. Was floored to see the Polo polos that used to be $59 for $110!

Sadly, the elevated prices are here to stay unless the economy crashes.

If you don't think that some of the Inflation numbers are being driven by fat bottom lines then you aren't paying attention to Wall Streets numbers. Airlines, Big Banks, Oil Companies, and even the auto companies are at or near record profits.

Oil companies (the big ones) all recorded record profits in 2022 and after higher returns in the first quarter of 2023 raised this years forecast.

The Banking Industry seems to love these interest rates and lower default rates as they recorded record first quarter profits of $80bn up 30% year over year. The Big Six US Banks earned a Trillion dollars in the last decade and that is after the billions in penalties they were fined.

The airlines are a bit harder to figure out but they doubled their second quarter profits year over year on fewer flights. Funny that aviation fuel costs are down while everyone seems to be complaining about gasoline prices.

Big Three auto industry profits have been in the $30B range the last few years. 2022 was an odd year. Great profits yet US auto sales of 13.7 million were the lowest since 2011. Those numbers should increase by at least 10% as supply chain issues lessen.

Again in the food industry you see record profits from companies like Con-Agra up over 50%, Kraft-Heinz up from $255m to $887m or 448% and Cal-Main up from $40m to $323 or 718%. Is it possible that the food and agriculture industry has become so concentrated that there is little incentive to gain market share by competing on price?

When you have an economy that has virtually no unemployment, where we have twice the number of open positions than the number of unemployed workers, you will have labor cost pressures. Getting work permits to fill open positions in the hotel and agriculture industries could help a bit. There is hardly a business in our ara that doesn't have a help wanted sign on the door.

In summary, yes commodity costs have increased significantly since the pandemic. Labor cost are rising. The impact of tariffs has been passed to the consumer. Companies have used inflation to pad their bottom lines. (No, I do not have the answer as to what if any value is too much profit. )I can tell you that the average consumer does not benefit from stock dividends generated by these profits. Fortunately those of us on these forums often do.

Originally Posted by still-one

If you don't think that some of the Inflation numbers are being driven by fat bottom lines then you aren't paying attention to Wall Streets numbers. Airlines, Big Banks, Oil Companies, and even the auto companies are at or near record profits.

I can tell you that the average consumer does not benefit from stock dividends generated by these profits. Fortunately those of us on these forums often do.

After being shut down (you can decide on another forum if legally or illegally by the government) for two years, where virtually every company lost money, prices went up due to almost no supply nor shipping ability. Of course the companies are now making profits due to the artificial meddling in the market economy. and recouping there losses.

And you are 100% wrong - EVERY average consumer who has a 401K or a pension is benefiting from these profits and stock splits.

You can't have artificial manipulate of a market on the scale we did to first destroy hundreds of thousands of business (NYC alone lost over 40.000 companies that will never come back) that have closed forever, and then complain the survivors are benefiting.

And we have low unemployment due to the fact that - as reported by CBO (a non partisan budget office) people have STOPPED LOOKING TO WORK (they are not counted in the unemployment figures) due to unemployment and covid benefits still being paid in many states for people to not work AND they CHANGED how they calculated unemployment recently to make the numbers look better. They have also vastly expanded those who qualify for unemployment undoing the Clinton era reforms to rein in fraud and laziness. Massachusetts as an example was paying $70,000 a year in unemployment (as reported by WBZ). Who would be crazy enough to get a job with that amount?

So adding more visa's isn't the answer, and stop paying people to NOT work is.

Again, this is a very simple issue that only those who don't like the results of their actions claim is complicated. Every half intelligent economist was warning for years this was going to happen with the actions taken with the trillions wasted. We were told they were lying. And now it's all come true.

Originally Posted by MichaelsMinute

After being shut down (you can decide on another forum if legally or illegally by the government) for two years, where virtually every company lost money, prices went up due to almost no supply nor shipping ability. Of course the companies are now making profits due to the artificial meddling in the market economy. and recouping there losses.

And you are 100% wrong - EVERY average consumer who has a 401K or a pension is benefiting from these profits and stock splits.

You can't have artificial manipulate of a market on the scale we did to first destroy hundreds of thousands of business (NYC alone lost over 40.000 companies that will never come back) that have closed forever, and then complain the survivors are benefiting.

And we have low unemployment due to the fact that - as reported by CBO (a non partisan budget office) people have STOPPED LOOKING TO WORK (they are not counted in the unemployment figures) due to unemployment and covid benefits still being paid in many states for people to not work AND they CHANGED how they calculated unemployment recently to make the numbers look better. They have also vastly expanded those who qualify for unemployment undoing the Clinton era reforms to rein in fraud and laziness. Massachusetts as an example was paying $70,000 a year in unemployment (as reported by WBZ). Who would be crazy enough to get a job with that amount?

So adding more visa's isn't the answer, and stop paying people to NOT work is.

Again, this is a very simple issue that only those who don't like the results of their actions claim is complicated. Every half intelligent economist was warning for years this was going to happen with the actions taken with the trillions wasted. We were told they were lying. And now it's all come true.

I am not wrong, only 60% of the country is invested in the stock market and that includes those 401k's. Around 78% of Americans have less than $50k saved for retirement. With few companies still offering defined pension plans those who are going to have to live off Social Security and their 401k's will be hurting.

Yes every intelligent economist has warned for years that tax cuts and artificially low interest rates were not good for the long run.

I am not going to argue that unemployment benefit programs should not be overhauled. In many cases they are a dis-insensitive to work. We need those people back paying taxes and receiving benefits, not just being offered enough hours to keep them below the benefit threshold.

Raising the cap of H-2B visas has allowed many seasonal jobs to be filled. There were over 130k requests for the 33k summer allocation. The temporary increase of ~66k visas for 2023 has helped. Still in many hotels you have to almost beg to get your sheets changed daily or fresh towels delivered automatically.

Those hot Texas temperatures having you drinking the Kool-Aid.

Originally Posted by still-one

Those hot Texas temperatures having you drinking the Kool-Aid.

Let me fix this for you - from the Bureau of Labor: "As of March 2022, 69 percent of private industry workers had access to retirement benefits (either defined benefit or defined contribution plans), while 92 percent of state and local government workers had access."

Yeah - blame the high-on-cocaine trillions spending spree and inflation of the last 2.5 years on tax cuts. Oh and tax cuts are definitely the reason they don't have savings. LOL

I see you are a reader and follower of Saul Alinsky.