Thread: Lumin T3

I have recently purchased the Lumin T3. The jury is out as to whether this is an improvement or backward step for me. Sound quality seems to be improving daily. At this point I might have about 60 hours of playback time, and what I'm reading here is that it needs more time to sound better. My question is more about the App. I am unable to find the save playlist icon (save/load as per manual) and therefore cannot create a saved playlist. The icon is simply missing. My music library is contained on a Synology NAS, that was easily found by the player. I am using an older IPAD as well, but this should not be an issue. The App version is 8.2.0 which was the latest version the IPAD would download. No better luck with my I-phone 11. I'm sure it must be able to save a playlist, I could do this 10 years ago with the MPD app on an older IPAD. Any help would be appreciated and any comments on the player itself. Wondering if I should have gone up the food chain, but its quite a bit more money. Thanks again.

Yes I tried with an entire list populated and still to no avail. Thanks for the reply.

IMG_1872.jpg
Here's a pic of the missing icon.

Originally Posted by Newmill

I have recently purchased the Lumin T3. The jury is out as to whether this is an improvement or backward step for me. Sound quality seems to be improving daily. At this point I might have about 60 hours of playback time, and what I'm reading here is that it needs more time to sound better. My question is more about the App. I am unable to find the save playlist icon (save/load as per manual) and therefore cannot create a saved playlist. The icon is simply missing. My music library is contained on a Synology NAS, that was easily found by the player. I am using an older IPAD as well, but this should not be an issue. The App version is 8.2.0 which was the latest version the IPAD would download. No better luck with my I-phone 11. I'm sure it must be able to save a playlist, I could do this 10 years ago with the MPD app on an older IPAD. Any help would be appreciated and any comments on the player itself. Wondering if I should have gone up the food chain, but its quite a bit more money. Thanks again.

I would give the T3 a minimum of 400 hours run-in before making any assessments. My P1 required this and it took 500 hours to fully "burn-in". Just some data for the "database".

On iPad 5gen (quite old) the last app version should be 8.8.1

Thanks for all the replies. I still cannot get this work.

Thanks for the encouragement Puma Cat. I'm finding the sound stage a little smaller and the center image a little rearward sounding. The high frequencies are rolled off and vocals not as pure or delicate. On the up side the lower frequencies are quite better than what I'm used to, with a little more presence in this region. Do you think these things will come into better focus with more time?

Forgot to mention, I'm connected to a ARC Ref 6 pre amp, so the Lumin is only streamer/DAC.

Yes, but when I tried to create or save; nothing would happen. In the manual the icon beside the highlighted one in above post was the one needed. It wasn't there. Last night i tried a bunch more times and after tapping the second icon (highlighted above), swiping to the right on "create new playlist" the text box appeared, the keyboard was opened, and the ability to save a playlist was born! The third icon appeared (the one I could not find originally) that was highlighted in the manual. All this because you have to swipe to the right, not tap. Feel pretty stupid, but extremely happy to be able to save these late night playlists that are so enjoyable. I am extremely grateful for everyone's effort to help! Thank You all.

Another update if anyone is interested. I have kept the Lumin T3 playing in a loop frequently when I'm not in "The Room", and would guesstimate a little under 100 hours of playing time have lapsed. Seems like quite a good improvement has occurred over this time. I am slowly being swayed to the opinion that this might end up sounding quite good when the break-in is completed. Another question I have is: Are there any balanced cables that seem to be a better suited synergistic match than others, or is this fairly low on the list of end-game tuning? Currently using JPS Labs Super Conductor XLR's. These are probably 12 years old or so and were sold when digital was in its infancy. I also have JPS Labs connecting the ARC pre to the ARC amp.

Originally Posted by Newmill

Another question I have is: Are there any balanced cables that seem to be a better suited synergistic match than others, or is this fairly low on the list of end-game tuning? Currently using JPS Labs Super Conductor XLR's. These are probably 12 years old or so and were sold when digital was in its infancy. I also have JPS Labs connecting the ARC pre to the ARC amp.

Can't really say without doing a side-by-side comparison of the cables with the same content on the same system under the same environmental conditions (temp, humidity, and barometric pressure).

When I bought the Constellation Inspiration integrated, it prefers XLR to RCA, and I'm using the new Venom-X XLR ICs from Shunyata with it, and I am very happy with it. And this is compared to the Alpha V2 single-ended RCA ICs I used to use with my First Sound preamp and CJ tube amp, which are a couple models "higher up" the product line.

For what its worth, the Lumin T3 is starting to sound really nice; improvements in every way. Needless to say I am very happy to hear this trending in such a positive manner. Maybe this will be a keeper, but I am not ruling out the P1 as a better choice for me.

Another interesting thing I learned today, and maybe others can weigh in on this:
Went to a local dealer yesterday to talk about cabling; options, results, costs, etc. During this discussion he asked if I had ever experimented with Ethernet cable changes. In my mind, this did not really make sense (12" of cable??). He proceeded to show me the results through a demonstration. First up the (blue) CAT5e cable straight into the streamer which happened to be a Moon streamer, but not sure of the model. Played a track that was more bass oriented jazz. Then he changed (using a basic TPI Ethernet switch). Next up was an Audioquest Vodka cable. I was surprised to hear the bass quality go from a little muddy to really clear and tight. I'm sure there was other improvements as well, but we only listened for 30 seconds at a time to the same track at the same volume. Next up was a Nordost cable, but not sure what the model was. Another step up but this time less pronounced. I ended up leaving with the Audioquest cable. I must say I am pretty amazed at this improvement to my sound. It really positively impacted my system in every way imaginable. Don't want to bore you with the typical cliche audiophile jargon. I am now even happier with the Lumin T3. It did turn out to be a nice upgrade for me. I really can't understand how 1 foot of signal cable can have such a profound effect. Anyone have similar results? Anyway gotta run........can't get enough of my listening room right now

Originally Posted by Newmill

For what its worth, the Lumin T3 is starting to sound really nice; improvements in every way. Needless to say I am very happy to hear this trending in such a positive manner. Maybe this will be a keeper, but I am not ruling out the P1 as a better choice for me.

Great to hear that the T3 is getting better and better and proving to be enjoyable. Just some info for reference: your T3 will take a minimum of 400 hours to"get "on the cam" as they say in motor racing, and 500 hours to fully burn in. Listening 5 hours/day, that's about 3 1/3 months. The 500 hours burn-in requirement is consistent for many Lumin products including the P1, the T3, and the new U2.

Another interesting thing I learned today, and maybe others can weigh in on this:
Went to a local dealer yesterday to talk about cabling; options, results, costs, etc. During this discussion he asked if I had ever experimented with Ethernet cable changes. In my mind, this did not really make sense (12" of cable??). He proceeded to show me the results through a demonstration. First up the (blue) CAT5e cable straight into the streamer which happened to be a Moon streamer, but not sure of the model. Played a track that was more bass oriented jazz. Then he changed (using a basic TPI Ethernet switch).
Next up was an Audioquest Vodka cable. I was surprised to hear the bass quality go from a little muddy to really clear and tight. I'm sure there was other improvements as well, but we only listened for 30 seconds at a time to the same track at the same volume. Next up was a Nordost cable, but not sure what the model was. Another step up but this time less pronounced. I ended up leaving with the Audioquest cable. I must say I am pretty amazed at this improvement to my sound. It really positively impacted my system in every way imaginable. Don't want to bore you with the typical cliche audiophile jargon. I am now even happier with the Lumin T3. It did turn out to be a nice upgrade for me. I really can't understand how 1 foot of signal cable can have such a profound effect. Anyone have similar results?

Yes. Ethernet cables have a audibly significant impact on audio quality.

Regarding your experiences with Ethernet cables: they really make a difference, sometimes significantly so, depending on their construction. When I was implementing up my "streaming set-up" (a "remote" music server sending ripped or "streamed" music files to a network bridge/streamer), I did what is known in product development as a "competitive benchmarking" of several makes of Ethernet cables. I rented in some some Ethernet cables, and bought a few others, including the Wireworld Belden Cat 6A, Supra Cat, 8, Audioquest Cinnamon, Starlight Cat 8, and Audioquest Vodka. Of of these, I thought the Vodka was the best, it's a nice cable. Once they became available, I also tested the Shunyata Venom and Alpha Ethernet, and of all the cables, I evaluated, these were the best I evaluated.

So, my final rankings were:
Shunyata Alpha
Shunyata Venom
Audioquest Vodka
WW Starlight Cat 8
Supra Cat 8
AQ Cinnamon
Belden Cat 6A (really didn't like this cable)

If you need a quality Ethernet cable for other connections and are "budget-constrained", I'd suggest considering the Supra Cat8, just be mindful it can be a bit bright-sounding in certain set-up/positions (where the cable is being used), and on certain content.

One of the reasons that different Ethernet cables can sound different is due to their construction. Shielded Ethernet cables with the shields connected at "both ends" can conduct high-source impedance leakage current* (usually caused by switch-mode power supplies), which causes threshold jitter*, which leads to timing errors (the effects of timing errors are very audible, which is why high-end "master clocks" make such a big difference for digital music reproduction).

From John Swenson, who designed EtherREGEN:

"Clock thresholds, ground-plane noise, and receiver jitter:
So where does jitter come from? All oscillators (which generated a clock signal) have jitter, some more, some less. We classify this jitter component as “source intrinsic jitter.” Additional jitter can be added to this at the receiver of the clock, which is typically a flip-flop inside the DAC chip. The flip-flop has its own intrinsic jitter, which is called “receiver intrinsic jitter.” But there is a third class, “threshold jitter,” which is harder to conceptually understand, and threshold jitter is what will be discussed in the most depth in this paper.
Even though we tend to think of digital signals as being "binary" with just two possible states—high (1) and low (0)—changing instantaneously between them, this is not actually the case. The signal is an analog voltage. When going from a high to a low state it hits all the intervening voltages, and the change takes a finite interval of time. This is called the "ramp time,"—the time it takes to "ramp up" or “ramp down." This time interval can be very fast, but it is still not zero. A common ramp time found in modern digital audio circuits is several nanoseconds (ns). A ns is one-billionth of a second, and while that sounds fast, in the realm we are discussing it is not. This is important because every circuit receiving a clock signal has a threshold voltage. This is the voltage above which the circuit thinks the signal is a 1, and below which it thinks it is a 0. So what happens when this threshold changes? Think of a line going up from left to right, with a threshold at say 2 volts. Whenever the signal gets above 2V, the circuit sees it as going from 0 to 1. But what if the threshold changes from 2.0V to 2.1V? The signal takes a little while longer to get to 2.1 than 2.0, so the time it takes the circuit to see this change to a “1” also increases slightly. Note that the clock signal itself did not change; the change in timing was entirely a property of the receiver.
Okay, so why is the receiver changing threshold? Well the receiver itself really isn't, it stays at 2.0V. Where does the extra 0.1V come from? The voltage on the ground pin of the receiver! The 2.0V is not some physical property of the universe. It is the voltage between the ground pin and the clock input. However, if there is any voltage between the ground pin of the receiver and the ground pin of the source, this difference will be seen as an effective change in threshold, thus changing the timing the receiver sees, otherwise known as threshold jitter."

*–threshold jitter reference: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/06...f?v=1583429386

The other noise factor that has an audible effect is common-mode noise†, and this is why the higher-end Shunyata Ethernet cables (Alpha and higher) have an in-line common-mode noise filter. Reducing common-mode noise also plays a significant role in how good an Ethernet cable sounds.

†-Common-mode noise: https://www.pulseelectronics.com/wp-...Mode-Noise.pdf

Thanks for the excellent information and first hand experience with these cables. It's a never ending learning process, and is so enjoyable to learn about. I'll keep you posted of any further developments. I do have another question though. The T3 seems really overly smooth, especially in the higher frequency range. Is this the case with the P1 as well or is there just more break-in time needed on the T3. I know its hard question due to the variety of gear assembled in ones personal hifi rig.

Originally Posted by Newmill

Thanks for the excellent information and first hand experience with these cables. It's a never ending learning process, and is so enjoyable to learn about. I'll keep you posted of any further developments. I do have another question though. The T3 seems really overly smooth, especially in the higher frequency range. Is this the case with the P1 as well or is there just more break-in time needed on the T3. I know its hard question due to the variety of gear assembled in ones personal hifi rig.

Not sure what you mean by "overly smooth". The biggest factor in any audio system is the room itself. Also, be mindful that the components do not function "independently" one from another: they interact with each other. The cables, including the digital cables, ICs, PCs, and speaker cables also interact with the source and amplification components to create a "system". For example, signal ground noise from one component can be carried to the other components in your system by...the interconnects. They all can and often do, interact each other because they're now all connected to each other. So, when you connect a set of different components together, now all their "signal ground planes" (the 0 volt "reference point" in the circuit(s)) are all interconnected to each other, and...they can be slightly different from one component to another. This means noise from one component can travel through to all the other components from being "interconnected" with each other. This is why it's difficult to make "generalizations" when the overall sound is due to the interactions of aspects of the system as a whole. From systems engineering perspective, the "control factors" can be impacted by the "noise factors". Noise factors interact with control factors to take functional responses "off-target, add variance, or both. While noise can be reduced, it can never be eliminated. This is just the "physics" of the system as a whole.

And I can't speak to the P1 with respect to this specific "characteristic", all I can say is the P1 is one of a handful of the finest components I've ever heard, both as a "digital component (streamer/DAC) and a as "control preamplifier". The only way to know how it will sound in your system is to evaluate it in your room with your other system components and cables, power distribution set-up, and environmental factors (the temperature and barometric pressure have an effect on how your system sounds, as well.)

I definitely understand that the system as whole creates the final musical presentation. The only thing I changed was the streamer/dac and the sparkle has kind of disappeared. It reminds me a bit of the dolby noise reduction on a compact cassette player. When enabled, everything was kind of rounded off. Less shimmer on cymbals, less air, but smoother bass, if that analogy makes any sense? I used to close my eyes while listening, and feel like there was a human singing in my music room. Now I close my eyes and I feel like I'm listening to recorded music. The room itself is top tier. Dedicated everything, with Dennis Foleys's activated carbon bass management etc. If this does not start to become more revealing and life like, I wont be able to live with it. Give it more time I guess? Or Play with cables?

@Newmill,

My Lumin experience is with the X1. For me this unit noticeably improved over hundreds of hours. 200 playing hours for me was a major settling in point, but still improved and thought around 400 hours it hit its stride. That's much longer than I was used to considering for "break-in". Possibly this could have been similar for other pieces, and I didn't notice it. I have tried (emphasis on tried) to limit additional changes, such as cabling, etc. during the earlier hours, but admit I am not the best doing that. Your reference to Dolby with cassette player made me smile--I go back long enough that at one time I had a stand alone Dolby B unit, so I can relate to your description. However, I do not feel that applies to my X1. I'm a Boomer and know that my upper range hearing is compromised. Through the years I have come to believe that what I had earlier ascribed as increased detail was at times really noise. As you accumulate more hours, I believe you will experience more dynamics and presence than you may be now experiencing. Best of luck and enjoyment with your T3.

Further I really appreciate reading your personal experiences. The encouragement is greatly appreciated. I can't help but think I made a mistake with this purchase, but hearing what you and others have discovered through longer ownership gives me hope. Good advice on the cabling. I'll try to restrain myself from any more impulse purchases. On the up side, the T3 does some really great things too. The sound stage width and depth is not larger than what I'm used to, but it seems to be a much more cohesive presentation, better than lets say a grouping of perfectly defined instruments without exact placement on the stage. Hard for me to describe exactly the improvement that I'm hearing without getting super long winded with audiophile rhetoric. I'm leaving the Lumin running on repeat as I have a heavy work schedule this week and won't be in the room to use it. Hoping this aids in the break in. Another thought; are you shutting the player off with the switch on the back when you're not using it, or is it left on? Not sure what the manufacturer recommendations are. Thanks again.

Newmill,

I do not power down with the switch unless I'm going to be away for a period of more than a couple days. Instead, I allow Idle Sleep function in the App (I have selected 15 minutes) to control the standby timing or manually go to a sleep/standby with my optional remote control.

I believe it's always prudent to power down when making cabling connection changes.

Originally Posted by Newmill

Further I really appreciate reading your personal experiences. The encouragement is greatly appreciated. I can't help but think I made a mistake with this purchase, but hearing what you and others have discovered through longer ownership gives me hope. Good advice on the cabling. I'll try to restrain myself from any more impulse purchases. On the up side, the T3 does some really great things too. The sound stage width and depth is not larger than what I'm used to, but it seems to be a much more cohesive presentation, better than lets say a grouping of perfectly defined instruments without exact placement on the stage. Hard for me to describe exactly the improvement that I'm hearing without getting super long winded with audiophile rhetoric. I'm leaving the Lumin running on repeat as I have a heavy work schedule this week and won't be in the room to use it. Hoping this aids in the break in. Another thought; are you shutting the player off with the switch on the back when you're not using it, or is it left on? Not sure what the manufacturer recommendations are. Thanks again.

Further has given you some good info that I agree with based on my own experience. Again, I wouldn't make any final assessments until you minimally have 400 hours on the T3, and ultimately, 500 hours. If you leave the component on with content "streaming" through it, it will 3 weeks to get to 500 hours on it with it powered on and functioning (i.e., signal coming in and signal going out) continuously. However, it's also helpful to completely power off the component from time to time for a spell (e.g. overnight) to help with "forming" the capacitors.

Something I do is create a little spreadsheet and track the hours of "burn-in/"run-in" with actual data. Also be mindful that during burn-in, sometimes a component will go through a phase of "sounding worse" than at the beginning or at the end of the burn-in phase. It can be an "up or down" kinda thing. In my experiences with some other devices, once you "get there", it can be like flipping a switch: "Bing! I'm here!" So, just bear that in mind.

Originally Posted by further

Newmill,

I do not power down with the switch unless I'm going to be away for a period of more than a couple days. Instead, I allow Idle Sleep function in the App (I have selected 15 minutes) to control the standby timing or manually go to a sleep/standby with my optional remote control.

I believe it's always prudent to power down when making cabling connection changes.

Especially so with direct-coupled circuitry devices.

Thank You for the great replies. Here's a bit of an update. The streamer has between 350 and 450 hrs of play time in my best estimation. It is sounding really much better and I am again finding it hard not to spend a huge part of my time in the room. Everyone's advice about proper break in time required is spot on. I had a similar scenario when I installed the Furutech receptacles in my listening room many years ago. It got worse for quite a while (to the point I was going to remove them) and then greatly improved over time. I have made some changes in my room recently, but feel most of the improvement is the running in time of the Lumin T3 over the last couple of weeks.

Originally Posted by Newmill

Thank You for the great replies. Here's a bit of an update. The streamer has between 350 and 450 hrs of play time in my best estimation. It is sounding really much better and I am again finding it hard not to spend a huge part of my time in the room. Everyone's advice about proper break in time required is spot on. I had a similar scenario when I installed the Furutech receptacles in my listening room many years ago. It got worse for quite a while (to the point I was going to remove them) and then greatly improved over time. I have made some changes in my room recently, but feel most of the improvement is the running in time of the Lumin T3 over the last couple of weeks.

Thanks for the update. Your findings are consistent with my experience with respect to "burn-in" hours.

To expand on this subject a bit, I have recently added cable elevators and supports to all the cabling. The subwoofer cables were coiled on the floor so i shortened them, straightened them, and got them off the floor. I'm pretty sure the coiled cable is a bad idea. I also lifted the speaker wires and power cables.

The power cable supports were made in the shop from stainless steel, aluminum and rubber base and the name of the plastic i forget. Its not a very common material but we had some in the shop that was not being used.

Here's the power cable support on the Lumin.

he runs a tidy shop by the looks of it. that's for sure.

Thanks Guys. I was wondering. Does anyone have any thoughts or preferences regarding how they like to use the Lumin. Using Lumin volume control, or using a preamp? I havent tried it straight into the amp.

Originally Posted by Newmill

Thanks Guys. I was wondering. Does anyone have any thoughts or preferences regarding how they like to use the Lumin. Using Lumin volume control, or using a preamp? I havent tried it straight into the amp.

I use my P1 as my preamp, as well as my streamer and DAC, as the P1 is a superb preamplifer. And, I say this as the owner of a First Sound Presence Deluxe preamp with external dual-mono power supplies with almost 300,000 uF of power supply capacitance, and which presently is sitting nearby, unused.

In using the P1 as my preamp, I set my Inspiration integrated amp to unity gain, and then adjust the output volume with either the Lumin remote, or within the Roon interface, using the LEEDH volume control methodology. Personally, I think the LEEDH volume control methodology is the best-sounding I've ever heard. I also connect my EAR 324 phono stage to the P1 and again, it performs superbly as "straight" preamp.

I would definitely like to try Lumin T3 with a good linear power supply.

Originally Posted by Puma Cat

That is correct.

The Upscale Audio page also states this fact, in red lettering on the SBooster adapter page. Also, just obtained some additional info the SBooster LPS are known to have durability issues.

Caveat emptor.

Interesting, I've never had a single issue with my U2 mini running off an Uptone or Antipodes LPS.

Not to mention it's more musical than streamers costing 5x more that I've had in my system.

I like the audio sensibility kit. It can be used with many LPS.

Originally Posted by vert

Interesting, I've never had a single issue with my U2 mini running off an Uptone or Antipodes LPS.
.

It comes down to the original product manufacturer (e.g., Lumin) being able to profitably and sustainably provide consistent quality and a standard, consistent, and actionable quality support capability for their products with respect to the company's product warranty for all customers, not just a single customer. They also have safety codes, e.g., UL, IEC, etc., that they have to conform to.

It can be next to impossible, and most likely, is impossible, for the original manufacturer, who BTW, have to create value and provide safety for their customers, to provide "warranty support" for any of a number of safety non-compliant 3rd party (e.g., LPS) manufacturers, when the original manufacturer has virtually no control over the mfg. quality, SPC* and safety code compliance of these 3rd party products, and especially so when those products are installed by untrained customers. As such, no disciplined and mature company is going to provide warranty support for 3rd party companies modifying their products, let alone assume the safety liability risk of untrained customers installing after-market products that are not compliant with electrical safety codes. This risk is further increased when it involves untrained customers “modifying and installing” the electrical power subsystem of a non-compliant device or component.

Lumin is following standard and accepted best business practices for being able to provide consistent, predictable, and safe product quality, and being able to back up that quality with a product warranty, and safety code compliance.

This is also why Mike has quite properly and accurately pointed out above that installing these products voids the warranty.

*–SPC: Statistical Process Control. For any product to provide predictable and consistent quality, it has to be manufactured under statistical process control, with a Cp/CpK ≥ 4.0. This is MFG 101.