If connected via USB , Is there a max HDD size ?

**midpoint** · February 9, 2019, 02:57 PM

I have the Lumin D1,besides a NAS I attached two HDD discs a 10 Tbyte and a 12 Tbyte.

(Yes ISO files suck

)

At the start the Lumin recognizes both drives (with a different name of course), but after a stop only the last used HDD is recognized.

Switching to mimiserver (Nas) and then again to usb does not help? Even disconnecting from the mains does not help.

Any suggestions.

**wklie** · February 14, 2019, 11:12 PM

Lumin currently supports one USB HDD only. After every USB device removal please power cycle the Lumin device.

I've recently been told by users they're using a 8TB drive. Yours is even larger. Since direct attached USB HDD browsing is slow, and album / artist / genre browsing views are only available from MinimServer or L1, using those are preferred to direct attached USB HDD.

**midpoint** · February 15, 2019, 05:43 AM

Originally Posted by wklie

Lumin currently supports one USB HDD only. After every USB device removal please power cycle the Lumin device.

I've recently been told by users they're using a 8TB drive. Yours is even larger. Since direct attached USB HDD browsing is slow, and album / artist / genre browsing views are only available from MinimServer or L1, using those are preferred to direct attached USB HDD.

I am using a 10TB and a 12 TB drive.

Using one of the drives is no problem , because all the FIles are HD with an average of at least 1 Gbyte it comapares with a drive of 2 TB filled with only 16 bit 44 kHz flac files

After a rescan there are no problems with searching. I often use the windows app of Linn Kazoo. This app has a maximum of 20 subfiles, if you keep that in mind while organizing the folder structure there is no problem.
I only search by folder structure. The android Lumin app works with more than 20 subfolders but often loses contact.

The work around I now apply is put the power of ,of the second HDD, make a quick rescan of the first HDD and it works.

If I want to play from the other HDD I stop the Lumin, switch the power off of the first HDD, the power on of the second HDD, rescan and use the folder structure to navigate.

The only problem left is working with two HDDs simultaniously, this only works after initital restart Lumin and rescan of the HDD. But it is of no use because aftere a while the HDD wich is not used at that moment disappears. I suppose it has something to do with the energy saving software of the HDD.

I use USB 3.1 cabinet and Belkin cables.

Thanks Johan

**nicoff** · February 16, 2019, 12:17 PM

Have you considered increasing the size of the HDD in your NAS, transferring all files to the NAS and use the NAS exclusively?

**midpoint** · February 16, 2019, 04:47 PM

Hi Nicoff

I have a NAS rate 5 capacity 4*3 Tbyte, netto about 6,5 TB

First problem , I had to wait for new available Harddiscs, calculation 6,5 Nas + 8 (10TB )+ 9,5 (12TB) = 24 TB (with rate 5 you need 4*12) or reduce from rate 5. The max offered capacity for a professional disc is 14 TB now.

Second problem, the max capacity of the minimserver software, which is already stretched to the limits on the NAS with about 200000 tracks

Third problem, when the NAS is busy with organizing tasks, de streaming is often 'hampered', I use Belkin cat 8 cables and the cable distances are very limited below 3 meters. By hampering I mean "digital failures" in the sound quality. (on video you can easily see them but you can hear them as well. I stream about 15 years.

Fourth problem, when the LAN is used by other applications, streaming of HD files hampers the streaming as well. I use a Netgear 100Gbyte router.

That problems don't exist with usb HD, when you keep the sorage ratio below 80% and optimize the hard disc regurlary, use usb 3 and prime USB cables practival no hampering occurs (unless the Lumin is indexing).

Then practically, each year the market offers new models HD with more capacity. it is more economical to upgrade each year one HD, the old ones are used for backup.

Maybe I connect one of the HDs to the Netgear router, and install minimserver on my PC to manage that HD.

**nicoff** · February 16, 2019, 06:50 PM

I have a NAS with five 6TB drives. Available space is about 22TB.
I access the NAS via Ethernet. Category 5/6 wires nothing fancy.
I am using Roon for streaming (including HD) and I have never experienced any hiccups or streaming issues. I am not aware of library size limitations with Roon.
Not all NAS are created equal. It sounds to me that the issues that you are experiencing could be with your set up.

**midpoint** · February 16, 2019, 07:48 PM

Hi Nicoff

I have a Nas with 4 slots, rate 5. Rate 5 does not solve backup problems so I could change that anyway. Rate 5 demands 4 equal HDD's.

I did not make myself clear , I dont experience hicups, just somewhat less quality and sadly I am too much focused on that. Thanks for your suggestion on Roon, I will check out the possibilities, I never looked into it because I dont want all those information tags, I always browse
by folder * , but if it could handle the whole of my catalogue it could be worthwhile.
* If I want to play random I place a couple of CD folders in the playlist and hit the random button.

I have been using Logitech for more than 10 years, there have always been size problems in art size search times browse times logging etc. Keep in mind that not only the music files are transferred but the indexes as well.

The same accounts for minimserver. I wonder if Roon is much better because of the many vieuws and information it adds.

I personally would prefer a basic system soleley based on folder structure and 3 fields artist title genre. I would even gladly offer the display of the covers. I don't need playlist functionality.

**wklie** · February 16, 2019, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by midpoint

First problem , I had to wait for new available Harddiscs, calculation 6,5 Nas + 8 (10TB )+ 9,5 (12TB) = 24 TB (with rate 5 you need 4*12) or reduce from rate 5. The max offered capacity for a professional disc is 14 TB now.

Second problem, the max capacity of the minimserver software, which is already stretched to the limits on the NAS with about 200000 tracks

Third problem, when the NAS is busy with organizing tasks, de streaming is often 'hampered', I use Belkin cat 8 cables and the cable distances are very limited below 3 meters. By hampering I mean "digital failures" in the sound quality. (on video you can easily see them but you can hear them as well. I stream about 15 years.

If you discover SQ is being affected by busy network or busy NAS, it's time you look into Ethernet isolation and LPS for the NAS and your network router, you can ask Mike for some new stuff:
GigaFoil v4 Inline Ethernet Filter
Keces Power Supplies

Where is the limit of MinimServer stated? (A quick google search is not successful for me.)

If the music library is too huge to be handled by MinimServer, Roon on an i7 Windows PC needs to be considered - however, Roon does not support folder browsing.

**nicoff** · February 17, 2019, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by midpoint

Hi Nicoff

I have a Nas with 4 slots, rate 5. Rate 5 does not solve backup problems so I could change that anyway. Rate 5 demands 4 equal HDD's.

I did not make myself clear , I dont experience hicups, just somewhat less quality and sadly I am too much focused on that. Thanks for your suggestion on Roon, I will check out the possibilities, I never looked into it because I dont want all those information tags, I always browse
by folder * , but if it could handle the whole of my catalogue it could be worthwhile.
* If I want to play random I place a couple of CD folders in the playlist and hit the random button.

I have been using Logitech for more than 10 years, there have always been size problems in art size search times browse times logging etc. Keep in mind that not only the music files are transferred but the indexes as well.

The same accounts for minimserver. I wonder if Roon is much better because of the many vieuws and information it adds.

I personally would prefer a basic system soleley based on folder structure and 3 fields artist title genre. I would even gladly offer the display of the covers. I don't need playlist functionality.

I was a Logitech squeezebox user for many years too. In my opinion, Roon is what LMS would have become if Logitech had not abandoned it.

I keep my music in a folder structure. Roon uses those files and does its own thing. You get used to it. You can browse and find your music faster using Roon.

I suggest that you explore getting four higher capacity hard drives (for your NAS) and Roon. I recently replaced the hard drives in my NAS and the new faster drives made a huge difference in accessing data from the NAS.

And by the way, if you still have any squeeze boxes laying around, they can be used as Roon endpoints.

**midpoint** · February 17, 2019, 07:17 PM

Hi Nicoff

Thnx for your reply

I could both test ethernet filtering, and check if I can use my QNAP without mirroring.

The HDD I have bought are professional fast NAS drives , with some backup help I might be able to use them. and would then have to add only one 12 TB.

After reorganizing the folders I could test roon, but not being able to browse folders gives me the shivers. After ripping many thousands of cd's LP's and sacd's I know how non standard tags are , especially classic music and that you can not rely on freedb etc.

**midpoint** · February 17, 2019, 07:33 PM

Hi Peter Lee

I will take your suggestion of USB filtering into account. Maybe you recognize the problem someting is not perfect but not always, is it the pre amp, the wires, the connections? the Carver ASL;s (of age) the Krell power amp, the lumin or ethernet.

The ethernet distances are very short 1 meter from QNAP Nas tot Netgear 100 Gbyte router and 2 meters from router tot the Lumin. I installed CAT 8 cables, but within one meter there is a lot of gear.

Anwering your question as I experienced with LMS the Minim software stores a lot of files* in the limited cachespace. I am not a specialist but countered a problem as described in the next link

MinimServer Forum / MinimServer / General

/ java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space

I solved this by simply transfer a lot of files to another map not below the main minimserver map, after a rescan the problem was solved

* indexes, logfiles, even covers were stored in LMS. the more tags the more indexes is my simple conclusion.

**dznutz** · February 17, 2019, 07:42 PM

Simply goes to show, no matter how well built or designed, some one will always find some sort of fault.

**nicoff** · February 17, 2019, 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by midpoint

After reorganizing the folders I could test roon, but not being able to browse folders gives me the shivers. After ripping many thousands of cd's LP's and sacd's I know how non standard tags are , especially classic music and that you can not rely on freedb etc.

You could try out Roon for free and see if the issues that you are having go away. Roon gives you ability to search and organize your music in ways not possible browsing the folders. Try for example: All works by Beethoven, conducted by Solti, on Decca, not mp3, after 1965. Easy to do with Roon. And you can save that search into a “dynamic” folder that gets automatically updated whenever you add an album that meets that criteria.

Think of Roon as 21st century data management as compared to last century (folder browsing). There is just no comparison.

I agree that classical music metadata is all over the place. That is where tagging software comes into play. I use mp3tag to fix metadata. I highly recommend it. For classical music tag fixing software is a must have imo.

And there are non-free metadata software programs specially designed around classical music. Much more powerful and accurate than Freedb.

One more thing, you can start using Roon right away without attempting to try and fix the metadata first. Roon gives you the option to select the metadata that Roon suggests instead of the faulty one that you have.

**midpoint** · February 18, 2019, 07:02 AM

Hi Nicoff

I have used MP3 tag and also Bliss to correct thousands of cd's.

Some of the problems i encountered:

Time consuming

Need tp reduce the number of genres, especially for jazz and pop

Manual filling of tags because many (most vinyl rips but CD's and SACD as well) did not have freedb information

Solve the Composer Tag chaos, Instead of using the Tag composer I added composer to the cd title e.g. Beethoven Sym 5

With mixed work I gave up. Under the Folder of the artist.

Besides that you also met the problem of more than 9 possible tags for Mozart (adding extra spaces and year of birth and dead there are even a lot more):
WA Mozart
W.A. Mozart
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
Wolfgang A. Mozart
Mozart
Mozart, W.A.
Mozart, WA
Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus
Mozart, Wolfgang A.

I also had to solve the problem that the sum of tags in Freedb can be to long for playing Flac files, did happen many times with classic music and extended composer names and extended titles.

Also the Tag Artist is a nuisance for classic music, I standardised the order Solist - Conductor - Orchestra and of course all abbreviations

It's a monks work over 15 years and Roon can easily destroy all that work using the advised retag

Bliss has also automated retagging but happily I tested that before and make only limited use of it.

Maybe you understand my shivers better now.

**nicoff** · February 18, 2019, 10:30 AM

Yes, indeed, fixing metadata manually can be a chore. The ideal is to get it right when you are ripping the disc and avoid having to fix the data afterwards.

I use DBPoweramp for ripping. And I can attest that none of the free databases in DBP (including Freedb, etc.) will give you the consistency that you need for classical music. DBPoweamp allows you to override the suggested metadata before ripping and that is when I make corrections. I have my own workflow that I use for consistency. That helps solve the problem of Artist vs Album Artist and also the inconsistencies in the names of the composers.

I use MP3TAG to automatically change name of the track file and fix an occasional item that I decide to modify after ripping. (For classical, I like to include composer, performer, composition, track name in the name of the file. For example: Mahler-Solti-Symphony No. 5 - Part III Adaguietto. Mp3Tag can do that automatically in batches).

Several folks here have recommended a software package called MusiCHI for metadata. I am not familiar with it but have read that it is very thorough. It is recommended for classical and jazz. It is not free.

http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.c...rs/MusiCHI.htm

Your fear about losing your data when using Roon is unfounded. Roon will read your files/folders and internally catalogs your library. But it does NOT change or alter the location or structure of your folders or the data. Your data will remain intact.

In fact, you can tell Roon if you want to use your current metadata or if you prefer to have Roon to use its own. Your call.

Before spending any money on hardware, you should try Roon for free. You can install Roon core in an existing computer and have it point to your different drives (NAS and USB drives) to find your music.

Your sizable library will benefit greatly from a powerful music data management like Roon. Not to mention the sound.

**midpoint** · February 24, 2019, 07:07 PM

It seems I solved the problem.

I managed to switch off the energy savings setting of the HDDs when attached to a windows 8.1 PC.

Apparantly that setting in windows changed a setting in the HDD as well and works on the Lumin too. Now is see the two HDD's again on the Lumin app even if I dont use the HDD for a while.

To explain why I came to playing from HD files , below is a youtube link in which Hans Beekhuizen explains why streaming of HD files from a NAS not always works well.

I have the same experience, no problems with 44 klhz-16 bits files the streaming of DSF and 192-24 files are slightly hindered if the NAS or the network is busy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taEbRE2mUYU

I realise the Lumin has only limited capacity for indexing, but because the HDD files are on average minimal 4 times as big as an average flac 16 bit 44 kHz file, the required space for indexes will be not bigger as for a 3 Tb disc

Still it would be nice if one could switch off the indexing of most of the tags like artist composer etc in the Lumin app.

Another youtubelink I would like to share is the measurement of streaming with Roon:

http://archimago.blogspot.com/search?q=roon

If the quality of playing roon would be better it could be worthwhile , but it seems it is not. The information and indexing functionality of Roon is nothing for me, but that is my taste.

I use the NAS for my files in CD quality and keep using de HDD for HD files. Maybe A DAS will come in but I woult have to test it first.

**nicoff** · February 24, 2019, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by midpoint

It seems I solved the problem.
......

Another youtubelink I would like to share is the measurement of streaming with Roon:

http://archimago.blogspot.com/search?q=roon

If the quality of playing roon would be better it could be worthwhile , but it seems it is not. The information and indexing functionality of Roon is nothing for me, but that is my taste.

I use the NAS for my files in CD quality and keep using de HDD for HD files. Maybe A DAS will come in but I woult have to test it first.

Glad to see that you solved the problem!

Regarding the article that you posted about Roon, the only complaint that I saw from Archimago is that it cost too much. (For someone used to the free LMS that is understandable). I saw nothing negative about the sound quality. And keep in mind that the article is a couple years old (Roon version 1.2). Since then Roon has released several new versions (version 1.6 is out now with Qobuz support).

**midpoint** · February 24, 2019, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by nicoff

Glad to see that you solved the problem!

Regarding the article that you posted about Roon, the only complaint that I saw from Archimago is that it cost too much. (For someone used to the free LMS that is understandable). I saw nothing negative about the sound quality. And keep in mind that the article is a couple years old (Roon version 1.2). Since then Roon has released several new versions (version 1.6 is out now with Qobuz support).

Right not worse but also not better. The measurement is from feb 2017, not so old.

Played with JRiver to the Lumin , works as well but no different quality. With 24 Tb of music files one has no need of Quobus, besides I could play Qobus with the Lumin as well.

For me it is surprising that a quadcore NAS wich is designed for 4K video streaming can not handle audio files which much less density. The indexing software does not help, only complicates the network traffic.

**nicoff** · February 24, 2019, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by midpoint

Right not worse but also not better. The measurement is from feb 2017, not so old.

Played with JRiver to the Lumin , works as well but no different quality. With 24 Tb of music files one has no need of Quobus, besides I could play Qobus with the Lumin as well.

For me it is surprising that a quadcore NAS wich is designed for 4K video streaming can not handle audio files which much less density. The indexing software does not help, only complicates the network traffic.

Agree that the article indicates that the sound from Roon is not better nor worse. To me that is a good thing. Two years in the software arena is a long time. Since that article was written, Roon has released four (4) new versions.

I still believe that your issues are software-related. Your current hardware should have no problem doing the work. Having used other free music data management in the past (LMS running in a computer; and Plex and Minimserver running in a NAS) I am not totally surprised. Good luck!

If connected via USB , Is there a max HDD size ?

**midpoint** · February 25, 2019, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by nicoff

Agree that the article indicates that the sound from Roon is not better nor worse. To me that is a good thing. Two years in the software arena is a long time. Since that article was written, Roon has released four (4) new versions.

I still believe that your issues are software-related. Your current hardware should have no problem doing the work. Having used other free music data management in the past (LMS running in a computer; and Plex and Minimserver running in a NAS) I am not totally surprised. Good luck!

Agree on the softeare, e.g. when playing DSD files from the NAS with Foobar on my windows PC I have no problems after enlarging the buffer in Foobar to the max.

Extending the bufferzone in the Lumin might help, but maybe there not enough cache memory for that. Maybe the priority algorithm in the routersoftware could help too, but I have no skills on that.

The fysical capabilites are large enough indeed. With the growing availability of HD files I am puzzled why I am one of the few who hears imperfections.

By the way the only app running on de QNAP is the minimsserver. (apart fromJRE en QNAP SSL cloud) The used storage is 75%.

But often you can hear the raid working.

**nicoff** · February 25, 2019, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by midpoint

Agree on the softeare, e.g. when playing DSD files from the NAS with Foobar on my windows PC I have no problems after enlarging the buffer in Foobar to the max.

Extending the bufferzone in the Lumin might help, but maybe there not enough cache memory for that. Maybe the priority algorithm in the routersoftware could help too, but I have no skills on that.

The fysical capabilites are large enough indeed. With the growing availability of HD files I am puzzled why I am one of the few who hears imperfections.

By the way the only app running on de QNAP is the minimsserver. (apart fromJRE en QNAP SSL cloud) The used storage is 75%.

But often you can hear the raid working.

Most NAS do not have very powerful processors. You are running Foobar in a windows PC that uses a processor that is much faster than the processor in your NAS. That’s why you can run DSD files that are typically more demanding of processing power.

If you install Roon or other music management software in your windows PC, you will be relieving the processor in your NAS from the heavy lifting and you should have no issues streaming your music.

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