F112 vs F113

**Mike** · March 15, 2014, 03:19 PM

I'm going to add a couple of subs to my two channel. Should I go with a pair of the 112's or 113's?

Room is 15 x 25, 8 foot ceilings.

**NorthStar** · March 15, 2014, 03:35 PM

No REL?

**Mike** · March 15, 2014, 03:39 PM

Based on connecting via XLR and using a crossover or DSP, no.

**joeinid** · March 15, 2014, 03:41 PM

I think the F113's are flat to 20 hz or below, not the F112.

**highEndguy** · March 15, 2014, 03:46 PM

Mike,
What about the F212?

**the professor** · March 15, 2014, 04:02 PM

If this is the case - F113s for sure.

Originally Posted by joeinid

I think the F113's are flat to 20 hz or below, not the F112.

**Mike** · March 15, 2014, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by highEndguy

Mike,
What about the F212?

Not sure I have the room!

**Mike** · March 15, 2014, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by joeinid

I think the F113's are flat to 20 hz or below, not the F112.

112's are flat to 21hz, no?

**Mike** · March 15, 2014, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by highEndguy

Mike,
What about the F212?

Are the 212's canceling subs?

**socfan12** · March 15, 2014, 04:48 PM

I thought I read somewhere, maybe on this forum, that the F112s were a bit faster than the 113 due to its smaller size, and thus was more desirable for music.

**Paul** · March 15, 2014, 04:57 PM

Another vote for F112's. If it has to be JL Audio.

**Mike** · March 15, 2014, 05:04 PM

Paul - you like something else better? REL?

**Mike** · March 15, 2014, 06:43 PM

F212's are now in play!

**Paul** · March 15, 2014, 06:56 PM

Mike. Let me ask you quick question. Why do you need a sub ? ( question from the guy who had stereo sub ) how low the. Alexia's can go ?

**mdkim** · March 15, 2014, 06:56 PM

How about a pair of Magico's new Q-Subs? Chump change Mike

!!

**Mike** · March 15, 2014, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by BlueMcIntosh

Mike. Let me ask you quick question. Why do you need a sub ? ( question from the guy who had stereo sub ) how low the. Alexia's can go ?

It has nothing to do with "going low". It's all about smoothing out nasty bass nodes in the room. What subs do (as I'm enjoying right now by using my Seaton Submersives as a test) is widen and deepen the soundstage, smooth out nasty bass nodes and produce an overall more enjoyable listening experience. Paul, if you could hear the richness of piano and the smoothing out of vocals and everything they are doing, you would sign up! I listen with them on and then off, and there is no going back. You cannot tell the subs are on. You don't hear them....but they fill in the soundstage beautifully.

Most people think subs are for bass. Well, they can fill in some of those 20-30hz notes where most speakers start to roll off, but they do much much more. Think of them as part of the entire room treatment process.

**Paul** · March 15, 2014, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

It has nothing to do with "going low". It's all about smoothing out nasty bass nodes in the room. What subs do (as I'm enjoying right now by using my Seaton Submersives as a test) is widen and deepen the soundstage, smooth out nasty bass nodes and produce an overall more enjoyable listening experience. Most people think subs are for bass. Well, they can fill in some of those 20-30hz notes where most speakers start to roll off, but they do much much more. Think of them as part of the entire room treatment process.

I understand Mike. If you already checked with seaton subs and liked the results ? Then it's good thing. When I had two F113's in my room. First I thought it sounded incredible but later I found that everything was just too much also I realized I was creating the sound way I wanted not in natural music way so moved them out of my room and I feel more comfortable without them. YMMV.

**Mike** · March 15, 2014, 07:19 PM

I can see that Paul. If your room doesn't have any bass issues, then stick with full range speakers without subs. I'm determined to fix that last 1%! Prior to starting my room project, I had so many room issues, I didn't know where to start. If I can flatten out the bass between 20-200 in my room, I'll be set.

**Paul** · March 15, 2014, 07:46 PM

Mike. Some times Im thinking what if we studied this much hard when we were in school !

**Mike** · March 15, 2014, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by BlueMcIntosh

Mike. Some times Im thinking what if we studied this much hard when we were in school !

I actually did!

**NorthStar** · March 15, 2014, 08:02 PM

School of life is the best school.

**highEndguy** · March 15, 2014, 08:23 PM

So F212 it is !!

**PMCH** · March 15, 2014, 10:36 PM

I had 2 F113's in my system for awhile and initially thought they sounded great. As time went on I found that I was turning them on less and less. Might have been since I had full range speakers and why not just use only them. I did move one down to the HT room to replace a F112 and thought it was an improvement for movies.

**the professor** · March 16, 2014, 01:53 AM

I do find RELs integrate better than JLs for 2 ch. but for home theater JLs are the king

Of course it mostly depends on the individual driver but ..... The whole smaller size is faster just is flawed. To achieve the same volume a smaller sized driver has to move farther than a larger sized driver which makes it harder to be as fast as a larger driver. Cone stiffness and magnet structure is much more important for speed than size but smaller is not faster than larger.

**LL21** · March 16, 2014, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by the professor

I do find RELs integrate better than JLs for 2 ch. but for home theater JLs are the king

Of course it mostly depends on the individual driver but ..... The whole smaller size is faster just is flawed. To achieve the same volume a smaller sized driver has to move farther than a larger sized driver which makes it harder to be as fast as a larger driver. Cone stiffness and magnet structure is much more important for speed than size but smaller is not faster than larger.

Interesting...I see you have the Wilson Watchdog. I have never heard it but read great things about it. What else might you have compared it to?

**sleepysurf** · March 16, 2014, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

It has nothing to do with "going low". It's all about smoothing out nasty bass nodes in the room. What subs do (as I'm enjoying right now by using my Seaton Submersives as a test) is widen and deepen the soundstage, smooth out nasty bass nodes and produce an overall more enjoyable listening experience. Paul, if you could hear the richness of piano and the smoothing out of vocals and everything they are doing, you would sign up! I listen with them on and then off, and there is no going back. You cannot tell the subs are on. You don't hear them....but they fill in the soundstage beautifully.

Most people think subs are for bass. Well, they can fill in some of those 20-30hz notes where most speakers start to roll off, but they do much much more. Think of them as part of the entire room treatment process.

Amen! That was exactly my intention for adding a ML BalancedForce 210 sub to my ML Summits. I had a nasty null at ~60 Hz, and adding just one sub filled that in nicely. Here's the XTZ Room Analyzer before/after measurement (and the sub is still breaking in, so not even fully dialed in yet with the Summits). I also have an older NHT Sub Two that I might throw into the mix!

highres_333542382.jpeg

**the professor** · March 16, 2014, 01:44 PM

Over the years I've listened to a lot of subs and anytime I hear one that integrates well in a 2 ch system I take notice. REL seems to come up the most. The watch dogs are almost never on display so it's tough to really appreciate what they do. Being passive and w the Wilson controller (crossover) gives you the flexibility to make them work great w any speaker.

Where most people go wrong w subs is that they use second rate interconnects and/or speaker cable - "it's only for the sub so why bother" is what I hear all the time from dealers. For HT it might not matter but for 2ch it absolutely matters.

In practice, I'm not a DSP fan in subs because I've never heard them sound great in a 2ch system. I've never had the opportunity to play w a couple in my room to really know if it's setup or the sub itself It is hard for me to think that converting a signal to digital and then back again can be a good thing especially at reasonable prices. A good DtoA costs a bunch and then add a AtoD and then expect good results in a package less than your DAC????

Originally Posted by LL21

Interesting...I see you have the Wilson Watchdog. I have never heard it but read great things about it. What else might you have compared it to?

**LL21** · March 16, 2014, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by the professor

Over the years I've listened to a lot of subs and anytime I hear one that integrates well in a 2 ch system I take notice. REL seems to come up the most. The watch dogs are almost never on display so it's tough to really appreciate what they do. Being passive and w the Wilson controller (crossover) gives you the flexibility to make them work great w any speaker.

Where most people go wrong w subs is that they use second rate interconnects and/or speaker cable - "it's only for the sub so why bother" is what I hear all the time from dealers. For HT it might not matter but for 2ch it absolutely matters.

In practice, I'm not a DSP fan in subs because I've never heard them sound great in a 2ch system. I've never had the opportunity to play w a couple in my room to really know if it's setup or the sub itself It is hard for me to think that converting a signal to digital and then back again can be a good thing especially at reasonable prices. A good DtoA costs a bunch and then add a AtoD and then expect good results in a package less than your DAC????

Thanks...good to know. I have been fortunate with my Velodyne DD18 (and I use Transp Ref XL interconnects and high quality Sablon Audio QGC power cable). Its in an isolation sandwich (Ultra 5s and Auralex isolation platform underneath and 66lbs solid brass on top of 3 HRS Nimbus Couplers to mass damp above).

But it also helps that I only run it below 40hz (48db slope so its silent above this point). I am just curious what using a Wilson Thor would do instead...

**socfan12** · March 16, 2014, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by the professor

I do find RELs integrate better than JLs for 2 ch. but for home theater JLs are the king

Of course it mostly depends on the individual driver but ..... The whole smaller size is faster just is flawed. To achieve the same volume a smaller sized driver has to move farther than a larger sized driver which makes it harder to be as fast as a larger driver. Cone stiffness and magnet structure is much more important for speed than size but smaller is not faster than larger.

I've heard this side as well. I was just passing on what I had read here I believe. And IIRC, the post mentioned some of the staff at JL used the 112 themselves because of the 'speed' factor. But because this is not first hand info, I will stop there.

Originally Posted by the professor

Over the years I've listened to a lot of subs and anytime I hear one that integrates well in a 2 ch system I take notice. REL seems to come up the most. The watch dogs are almost never on display so it's tough to really appreciate what they do. Being passive and w the Wilson controller (crossover) gives you the flexibility to make them work great w any speaker.

...

Interesting. Was just reading the Rel R528 sub review in TAS. Sounds like a winner...

**Big B** · March 16, 2014, 02:18 PM

I'm using F113 in a small room and at times it is fatiguing. This unit is planned to go in the HT room 16x22. That should change things, I'm also entertaining getting a second sub. The F113 goes lower than F112.

Barry

**KingRT10** · March 16, 2014, 09:40 PM

I own both.
JL told me 2 F112 for music, I followed their direction.
I use 2 F113's for my Home Theater.

**the professor** · March 17, 2014, 12:28 AM

I've always wanted to hear the thors.

The lower the crossover frequency the better.

Originally Posted by LL21

Thanks...good to know. I have been fortunate with my Velodyne DD18 (and I use Transp Ref XL interconnects and high quality Sablon Audio QGC power cable). Its in an isolation sandwich (Ultra 5s and Auralex isolation platform underneath and 66lbs solid brass on top of 3 HRS Nimbus Couplers to mass damp above).

But it also helps that I only run it below 40hz (48db slope so its silent above this point). I am just curious what using a Wilson Thor would do instead...

**sharkmouth** · March 17, 2014, 03:08 AM

Well Mike, you know where my loyalties lie in the 2ch low frequency camp. What I've just heard has me in a lather, but thats another thread. 2ch has to be fast! I think you are on the right track though but I suspect to see some action in the f/s thread in a few....

**Mike** · March 17, 2014, 05:47 PM

This looks promising:

http://mediacdn.jlaudio.com/media/mf...pdf?1389245840

**Mike** · March 17, 2014, 05:47 PM

This looks promising:

http://mediacdn.jlaudio.com/media/mf...pdf?1389245840

**Paul** · March 17, 2014, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

This looks promising:

http://mediacdn.jlaudio.com/media/mf...pdf?1389245840

Yeah Mike when I spoke with guy at the JL Audio he was highly recommended to me. I never get a chance to use it though. Hope you get that chance.

**Mike** · March 17, 2014, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by BlueMcIntosh

Yeah Mike when I spoke with guy at the JL Audio he was highly recommended to me. I never get a chance to use it though. Hope you get that chance.

Paul - how did you incorporate the subs into your system? DSP? Crossover?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

**Paul** · March 17, 2014, 06:34 PM

Cross over. I will tell you more if you are interested it was done by the dealer though. ( going home after work )

**Big B** · March 17, 2014, 09:27 PM

I was wondering when they would make a crossover. Definitely interesting. Heard about price?
Barry

**Mike** · March 17, 2014, 09:32 PM

$3k I believe. There is already a review: http://canadahifi.com/worlds-first-r...12-subwoofers/

**Big B** · March 17, 2014, 09:43 PM

cool little magazine. I always liked those guys. They are now the guys behind the Taves Show. Got to run out pick up the daughter but I'll be reading as soon as I get back.
Barry

**Audioseduction** · March 18, 2014, 11:27 AM

Mike, what about Pass Labs XVR-1? It’s very flexible and does a great job from what I heard and seen at Howard’s (The Sandman) home. He has a pair of JL F12s and they are seamlessly incorporated into has dedicated 2CH system. He has a pair of Magico s5s.

https://passlabs.com/products/preamp...eciality/xvr-1

**Mike** · March 18, 2014, 11:30 AM

George - it's definitely under consideration - but I would need to compare the two products to see. Right now my plan is:

two F212's
and then some form of EQ/Crossover or DSP.

**socfan12** · March 18, 2014, 01:46 PM

Two 212s? Wow, you mean business!

**Mike** · March 18, 2014, 02:16 PM

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

**socfan12** · March 18, 2014, 02:56 PM

I am watching this thread with interest. Seems that I do prefer the 12' listening position mentioned in my other thread, but that has the bass hump. I might be going down the route of two subs as well some day. But certainly not 2 F212s!

**Mike** · March 19, 2014, 03:41 PM

My DSPeaker 2.0 Dual Core arrived today. Calibration is under way. Report later.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1395258063.992297.jpg

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1395258071.015876.jpg

**Mike** · March 19, 2014, 04:00 PM

Corrected:

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1395259187.718983.jpg

Results? Amazing. Problem solved.

**socfan12** · March 19, 2014, 05:51 PM

Niiiice!

Measures well. How does she sound now?

**Mike** · March 19, 2014, 06:40 PM

Excellent! I may try the subs and remeasure for fun.

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