Thread: Hello from an Avantgarde Owner in UK

I live on the South Coast of England with great views over the Solent and local harbours.

My listening room is roughly semi-circular and has over 50 ft width of floor-to ceiling glazing. It is 975 sq ft with low 7'7" ceiling. Not ideal for audio, but at 200 ft above the surroundings, it offers fabulous views.

Speakers are placed in the centre of the room either side of a central column, so they have to look more interesting than a veneered box! Speaker choice is crucial and I've found that horns beat other types here.

I had 2003 vintage Avantgarde Unos horns from new but changed these for slightly newer Duos last year, after an unsatisfactory experiment with Martin Logan 13As. Likely to take a leap to the latest Duo XD or Mezzo soon. After experimenting with a dozen or so amplifiers, I've settled on NAD Master Series M32, but likely to move to something else soon.

Digital sources only, mainly from Qobuz and my collection of 1500 CDs - ripped by and stored on NAD M50.2. This ripper / streamer is almost unique in offering direct CD play as well as rip - useful for visitors who bring CDs to play here. No interest in vinyl or home theatre.

Looking forward to intelligent audio discussions here, hopefully without the inane and unhelpful postings from idiots who've no experience of the item under discussion on another well-know forum beginning with A !

Peter

IMG_0091.JPG

Plan - 112 Living Room PDF.pdf

Thank you for joining Peter. It’s great to see fellow Avantgarde lovers. I’m unfamiliar with NAD’s offerings and am certainly curious about your choice in amplification. I know you mentioned an amp update coming, the M33.

How would you describe the treble and midrange of your current integrated?

Hi Peter, welcome

Welcome!


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Welcome. Great to see another AG owner. Love the NAD sound.


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Originally Posted by Howiebrou

Welcome! Do you have a photo of the entire room? It would help considering the rather unusual dimensions.

Thanks - I'd love to add an image but new members need a 10-post record before they can upload images. By this time, are they still new members? I'll add photos to my original post when I've gained acceptance.

I'd like to add a Word doc of the room plan, but .doc files don't seem to be acceptable! Peter

Originally Posted by audio.bill

Hi Peter - MS Word has the "Save As" option which easily allows you to save the file in PDF format which can then be posted. Hope that helps!

Thanks for reminding me, Bill. However I'm not even sure PDF files are acceptable - only types associate with photos such as JPG. Unfortunately it's got worse - I can't edit my post at all - I think because there's a time limit. This forum certainly works in mysterious ways!

PDF files are fine. There’s a time limit on edits because of abuse. Others before you unfortunately abused our trust. One or two more posts and you are good to go.

Here's a plan of my listening room and a photo from the listening position

IMG_0091.JPG

That’s very cool. I love the setup.

Thanks for your help Joe. I seem to have got the room plan and photo uploaded although both in thumbnails. It would have been nice to have been able to add them to the original opening message.

Peter

Hello Peter,

Welcome to AS!

I had seen your post on Facebook a few days ago.
I am sure you will a lot more knowledgeable members on here than other places.

Fantastic listening space you have over there. Must be a spectacular view of the water!

Regards



.

Hi - cool looking room. Are your Duo's Omega versions? I owned 2000 Duo's that I upgraded to Omega drivers and crossovers before upgrading in 2014 to Duo Mezzo (pre XD version).

Peter,

Very cool room. I see you are a photography buff. I like the large format Toyo View camera on top of the glass showcase. I love all the decorations too. Well done!

Binoculars are 40 x 100 with optional 25 x eyepieces. They were supplied by Strathspey in Scotland, but I suspect they are Chinese made and simply labelled Strathspey.

I also have an excellent pair of 15 x 70 hand-held binos from Strathspey and I've been lucky enough to pick up 10 x 50 Pentax and 7 x 35 Nikon at charity shops locally - for £5 each! Peter

Originally Posted by mallen123

Hi - cool looking room. Are your Duo's Omega versions? I owned 2000 Duo's that I upgraded to Omega drivers and crossovers before upgrading in 2014 to Duo Mezzo (pre XD version).

My Duos are about 2006 bought last year after selling my even earlier Unos. Not upgraded to Omega. Next upgrade will be to new Duo XD or maybe Mezzo XDs.

I note you have Mezzos. Did you have the opportunity to compare them directly with Duo XDs? In some ways, I'd prefer Duos as they are slimmer and would obstruct less of my views and appear less bulky in the middle of my room. They have identical drive units and amp, so I guess the area of improvement with the Mezzo is solely in the bass below about 150 Hz.

However as you'll have noticed with my Duos, I don't like the "scaffolding" upright poles that support the horn tubes, so I've done away with them by using a rear-mounted F frame. Likewise, if I go for the new Duos, I'd get rid of the scaffolding - probably using a bracket cradle similar to that used in the Mezzo. This would I think greatly improve their looks and offer a slimmer appearance too - and without adversely affecting the sound if done carefully to retain or improve (as done with my Duos) vibration isolation. Peter

Originally Posted by Hear Here

My Duos are about 2006 bought last year after selling my even earlier Unos. Not upgraded to Omega. Next upgrade will be to new Duo XD or maybe Mezzo XDs.

I note you have Mezzos. Did you have the opportunity to compare them directly with Duo XDs? In some ways, I'd prefer Duos as they are slimmer and would obstruct less of my views and appear less bulky in the middle of my room. They have identical drive units and amp, so I guess the area of improvement with the Mezzo is solely in the bass below about 150 Hz.

However as you'll have noticed with my Duos, I don't like the "scaffolding" upright poles that support the horn tubes, so I've done away with them by using a rear-mounted F frame. Likewise, if I go for the new Duos, I'd get rid of the scaffolding - probably using a bracket cradle similar to that used in the Mezzo. This would I think greatly improve their looks and offer a slimmer appearance too - and without adversely affecting the sound if done carefully to retain or improve (as done with my Duos) vibration isolation. Peter

Hi Peter,
The Mezzo's add a whole different level, as the basshorn integration with the mid range horn improves the entire speaker performance.

The Duo Grosso with 12 inch subs would be the closest in terms of bass extension and volume, but still probably wouldnt match the speed of the basshorns. The Duo XD with 10" subs wouldnt even be close unless you listen to mostly music with less bass.

I agree the Mezzo's are quite a larger foot print, but if you get them in Jacaranda finish, they are quite attractive.

I have the non XD versions and have used Tube traps in all four corners to clean up the bass. I've not heard the Mezzo XD versions yet and probably won't upgrade as my room treatments seemed to do the job. The sound routinely amazes my non audiophile friends, especially with high end 300B amps like my AudioNote UK Shinri's.

Cheers
Mark

Originally Posted by Nikhil

Hello Peter,

Welcome to AS!

I had seen your post on Facebook a few days ago.
I am sure you will a lot more knowledgeable members on here than other places.

Fantastic listening space you have over there. Must be a spectacular view of the water!

Regards

.

Thanks Nikhil

Interesting that I've never used Facebook! Maybe another Hear Here, but I'd appreciate a link to the Facebook page you saw!

Peter

Originally Posted by joeinid

Peter,

Very cool room. I see you are a photography buff. I like the large format Toyo View camera on top of the glass showcase. I love all the decorations too. Well done!

Thanks Joe

Yes photography was my job for many years and well spotted - a Toyo View camera on the top. I used this occasionally as a studio camera for my work for market research companies. Otherwise medium format was Mamiya (I sold a Hasselblad as I really didn't much like it) but 95% of my work was with good old Canon 35 mm gear. The most interesting camera in the case is an early F1 (I had 3 at one time) fitted with a 250 exposure back, motor drive with the trigger connected by a curly cable and a sports finder. It was mounted on a copy stand facing downwards and fitted with Rodenstock enlarger lens with bellows for focussing. Used to produce tens of thousands of duplicate slides. Peter

Originally Posted by mallen123

Hi Peter,
The Mezzo's add a whole different level, as the basshorn integration with the mid range horn improves the entire speaker performance.

The Duo Grosso with 12 inch subs would be the closest in terms of bass extension and volume, but still probably wouldnt match the speed of the basshorns. The Duo XD with 10" subs wouldnt even be close unless you listen to mostly music with less bass.

I agree the Mezzo's are quite a larger foot print, but if you get them in Jacaranda finish, they are quite attractive.

I have the non XD versions and have used Tube traps in all four corners to clean up the bass. I've not heard the Mezzo XD versions yet and probably won't upgrade as my room treatments seemed to do the job. The sound routinely amazes my non audiophile friends, especially with high end 300B amps like my AudioNote UK Shinri's.

Cheers
Mark

So good to see you here Mark. We’ve been exchange few emails together


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Originally Posted by Hear Here

Thanks Nikhil

Interesting that I've never used Facebook! Maybe another Hear Here, but I'd appreciate a link to the Facebook page you saw!

Peter

Oops! It was in the HiFi Audio Streaming group I believe. I just left the group this morning so can't share the link. But it was definitely a post with pictures of your room and described your customized AG frames. Will see if I can find the post.

Regards


.

Originally Posted by mallen123

Hi Peter,
The Mezzo's add a whole different level, as the basshorn integration with the mid range horn improves the entire speaker performance.

The Duo Grosso with 12 inch subs would be the closest in terms of bass extension and volume, but still probably wouldnt match the speed of the basshorns. The Duo XD with 10" subs wouldnt even be close unless you listen to mostly music with less bass.

I agree the Mezzo's are quite a larger foot print, but if you get them in Jacaranda finish, they are quite attractive.

I have the non XD versions and have used Tube traps in all four corners to clean up the bass. I've not heard the Mezzo XD versions yet and probably won't upgrade as my room treatments seemed to do the job. The sound routinely amazes my non audiophile friends, especially with high end 300B amps like my AudioNote UK Shinri's.

Cheers
Mark

Thanks Mark, although I think you've missed a generational change in the Duo line-up.

Yes the Grosso was introduced some year back as a "better-bass" Duo by using twin 12" drivers in place of earlier twin 10" in Duos since about 2000. However, the new Duo XD uses twin 12" drivers so it now has identical drivers and amps to the Mezzo XD. The old Grosso is no longer in the AG range.

As you say, the difference between current Duo XD and Mezzo XD is the design of the bass cabinet, but not the drivers. The latter has horn loaded (not sure that's a strictly correct description) drivers so the bass should be a little better than standard Duos with their (effectively) conventional subs.

I've pretty much decided on the Duo XD as the subs are so much slimmer and would look much more acceptable in my living room as the speakers are in the middle of the room. In fact, I will follow my existing Duo modifications by eliminating the upright support "scaffolding" that I find unattractive in the Duo. I'm still working on how best to achieve this!

I see you are very much into tube amps and have those lovely twin-845 Nagra monos and the Brazillian Audiopax amps that we often saw powering AGs at shows some years back. I used to use tube amps (Art Audio PX-25 and 845 Carissa , Graaf OTL, Audio Note 300B and more recently Consonance Cyber 845 monos) but I decided 3 years ago to search out a solid state amp that sounded as good, but without the relative hassle of tube amps. I'm happy I did, but I'll look further when the new speakers are installed - though I don't think I'll be going back to tubes. I have a short list of 3 likely candidates, mostly recommended by Mezzo XD owners. Peter

Originally Posted by Nikhil

Oops! It was in the HiFi Audio Streaming group I believe. I just left the group this morning so can't share the link. But it was definitely a post with pictures of your room and described your customized AG frames. Will see if I can find the post.

Regards
.

Not familiar with that group, but possibly you saw it in in WhatsTheBest forum or maybe Audio Asylum. AVS forum is an unlikely third guess as I occasionally visit there. Peter

Originally Posted by Hear Here

Thanks Mark, although I think you've missed a generational change in the Duo line-up.

Yes the Grosso was introduced some year back as a "better-bass" Duo by using twin 12" drivers in place of earlier twin 10" in Duos since about 2000. However, the new Duo XD uses twin 12" drivers so it now has identical drivers and amps to the Mezzo XD. The old Grosso is no longer in the AG range.

As you say, the difference between current Duo XD and Mezzo XD is the design of the bass cabinet, but not the drivers. The latter has horn loaded (not sure that's a strictly correct description) drivers so the bass should be a little better than standard Duos with their (effectively) conventional subs.

I've pretty much decided on the Duo XD as the subs are so much slimmer and would look much more acceptable in my living room as the speakers are in the middle of the room. In fact, I will follow my existing Duo modifications by eliminating the upright support "scaffolding" that I find unattractive in the Duo. I'm still working on how best to achieve this!

I see you are very much into tube amps and have those lovely twin-845 Nagra monos and the Brazillian Audiopax amps that we often saw powering AGs at shows some years back. I used to use tube amps (Art Audio PX-25 and 845 Carissa , Graaf OTL, Audio Note 300B and more recently Consonance Cyber 845 monos) but I decided 3 years ago to search out a solid state amp that sounded as good, but without the relative hassle of tube amps. I'm happy I did, but I'll look further when the new speakers are installed - though I don't think I'll be going back to tubes. I have a short list of 3 likely candidates, mostly recommended by Mezzo XD owners. Peter

Hi Peter,

Please keep us advised as to what amp(s) you settle on. After almost a week, I sent back the Benchmark. I put back my Valvet E2se on my Duo. While there was much to love about the Benchmark, I felt more at home with the Valvet. I still think the SIT-3 is my favorite SS amp but the Valvet is a wonderful and very close second.

Originally Posted by joeinid

Hi Peter,

Please keep us advised as to what amp(s) you settle on. After almost a week, I sent back the Benchmark. I put back my Valvet E2se on my Duo. While there was much to love about the Benchmark, I felt more at home with the Valvet. I still think the SIT-3 is my favorite SS amp but the Valvet is a wonderful and very close second.

Hi Joe

I'm sorry you didn't stick with the Benchmark - no perhaps I should say I'm relieved! It was for me just about the dullest and blandest of the many amps I've tried over the last 3 years with my AGs. Perhaps the Quad Platinum was even less exciting.

I had not heard of Valvet until recently, but I think I'll put the E2SE on my shortlist. Only 12 watts but that should be ample with Duos. Peter

Hi Peter,

I have not ruled out the Benchmark for the future on regular speakers but not right now for my Avantgarde. My main focus is to have several solid state amps that I love for my Avantgarde speakers. When I play my system, it’s on for for 10-16 hours a day and most all weekend.

My SIT3 is superb, Valvet E2 or E2se is also absolutely wonderful. My Akitika GT-102 is awesome although gain is a little high. The Akitika is only $500 assembled and pretty amazing with 50wpc, smooth and sweet on top and dead quiet. Also I can’t wait for my Job INTegrated to return repaired. That’s awesome on my Avantgarde too. The Job has a built in dac with a great amp section.

Do I need anymore amps? Absolutely not, but I’m a little obsessed especially when the best seem to be $4K retail or less each. Pretty great if you ask me.

You definitely have me interested in NAD right now, especially with the M33 coming out soon. I love the all in one aspect of it.

Originally Posted by Hear Here

Hi Joe

I'm sorry you didn't stick with the Benchmark - no perhaps I should say I'm relieved! It was for me just about the dullest and blandest of the many amps I've tried over the last 3 years with my AGs. Perhaps the Quad Platinum was even less exciting.

I had not heard of Valvet until recently, but I think I'll put the E2SE on my shortlist. Only 12 watts but that should be ample with Duos. Peter

I've heard several ss amps - such as the SIT-3 - that had a really great sound with the various Avantgarde models.

Maybe it's just me, but going all the way back to the early 2000s, when I demo'd Avantgardes at shows (and was fortunate to receive many Best Sound awards/mentions by the high-end audio press), I have still never heard a SS amp that was as musically involving as any good tube amp with the Avantgardes.

Are there good sounding ss amps? Absolutely.

But when it came to sheer musical involvement with the Avantgardes, I always ended up with tube amps.

As always, IMO & IME...

Jim,

I fully agree with you and realize you have the experience to back it up. In my own experience too, tubes on my Avantgarde rule. I might experiment a little more but think I have most of my bases covered. It can be fun if not a little frustrating too.

Welcome a Peter! Very nice system and home. Enjoy in good health!