Thread: Hegel - Made In China - Who Cares?

I'm a big fan of Hegel products. I've owned two H30's and they performed WAY above their price point. Build quality was also rock solid. Sonically, they even had some die hard tube lovers smiling.

But there is a big flap going on over at Audiogon about the possibility (fact?) that Hegel products are made in China.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr...flup&105&4#105

I know Hegel owners are very happy with their products, but I'm curious, as someone who does not own a Hegel product and might be shopping for a new amp, new integrated, whatever, does "Made in China" bother you or is it a case of "who cares? I'm getting a great product at a great price!"?

It's hard to find anything in stores today that isn't made in China. One of the problems with Chinese manufacturing of audio gear is the counterfeit parts issue. I remember reading a story about a manufacturer who was having his stereo electronics manufactured in China. Apparently he wasn't the only customer of the company he was using to produce his gear. When he was having a production batch of his gear made, he would have to make them remove all electrical parts out of the production shop (resistors, caps, etc.) so he could bring his parts in. Otherwise, his expensive parts would disappear and counterfeit parts would be used in his gear and of course it wouldn't sound the way it was designed to sound. Just as a Chinese woman remarked on Master Chef that the only thing that has legs the Chinese won't eat is a table, there really is nothing of value that the Chinese won't counterfeit.

We will know that the Chinese have finally arrived as both a designer and manufacturer of high end goods when other Chinese companies start counterfeiting other Chinese goods.

Mike.......I imagine since the Chinese are past masters at counterfeiting, and those products are often inferior with high failure rates, the reputation that clings to the Made In China label is often viewed with suspicion, contempt, or disgust. There is no denying that manufacturing quality in China has improved dramatically in certain areas but certainly not all and not for a long enough period of time to erase from consumer's minds the stains of past or continuing deeds. Counterfeiting remains rampant, not only in finished products but also in component parts that are supplied to manufacturers all over the world. For some, trying to rise above this ingrained mindset is difficult, particularly older generations. As future progress is made I am certain the stigma associated with the Made In China label will disappear as it did for Japan. I am old enough to remember when Made in Japan was a symbol of cheap, poorly made junk merchandise. Now, Made In Japan is seen as a badge of distinction. Unfortunately, I think China has some distance to travel and time to pass before Made In China becomes a non-issue. It is happening slowly. For many it carries no negativity but for others Made In China still represents the lowest possible common denominator for value, seen as a last choice when no other options are available.

Labor conditions in China typify another set of issues some people have with Chinese made products. Child labor, forced labor, poor working conditions, forced factory living arrangements, questionably low pay, and other ugly conditions in the Chinese labor force leaves many with less than favorable views about products manufactured in China. Couple the notions of poor quality, the possibility of counterfeit components or parts, and questionable labor issues, it becomes more transparent why there are some who remain committed to avoiding goods labeled Made In China.

The attitudes of buyers do not go unnoticed by other manufacturers around the globe who use factories in China to manufacture parts or assemblies that are then shipped to the UK, Canada, the USA, Japan, and many other locations around the world for final assembly. These manufacturers will then silkscreen the rear aprons of gear with their logos and Made In USA, or Assembled In UK , Assembled In Canada, Assembled In Italy, etc. as a way of deferring attention from the fact that much, if not nearly all of a component's parts were actually Made In China. These same manufacturers want their reputations to go unspoiled and be supported as being known for building products in their local regions and factories. These same manufacturers are painfully aware of the continuing stigma many buyers place on products coming out of China. They wish to distance themselves whenever possible from the actual origin of parts and assemblies in their products.

After having seen and auditioned a number of audio products manufactured in China, I will admit that it has helped me adjust my preconceived attitude about low quality. A perfect example for me was removing the cover from the bottom of the PrimaLuna ProLogue Premium integrated amplifier I reviewed several years ago. I was astonished at the excellent craftsmanship and layout, attention to detail, and high quality parts used to assemble this audio component that wears the Made In China label. Sometimes one has to see it with their own eyes to become a believer.





Beyond a simple awakening there is much to be done before the Made In China label approaches being considered a badge of honor. Progress is taking place, but the job is far from complete. Some people may never be convinced that great things are taking place in China, while others are able to shed past perceptions and prejudices to embrace the future. There will always be naysayers. It is the human condition.

Originally Posted by puroagave

Mike, you remarked recently about Classe as being great value, its been made in China for at least the last 5 years. in the '60s imports from Japan were similarly stigmatized, now look how far they've come...

Another excellent example.

There is also the distinct difference between (engineered/designed in X and built in China) vs (designed and built in China - like Psvane, Line Magnetic, etc.).

Made in China. People need to get over it as there is not a darn thing you can do about it short of starting your own business and manufacturing everything yourself from materials right there in the US. If you removed everything ( wire, screws, fasteners, electronic components, rubber, steel, fabric ) in your home and your car, boat, motorcycle, bike to name a few that is made in China or other little countries (Taiwan, Indonesia, Singapore, South Korea, Thailand and Malaysia) and Japan and Mexico just think of what you have left.

I could write a book on the good and bad of Chinese manufacturing. You can find instances to support any position you wish to take, which is why it is impossible to paint what goes on there with broad brush strokes. As long as the American public is unwilling to pay a premium to retain jobs here is the US, companies will continue to move production or source from lower wage regions. In 50 years we will be left with lawyers who specializes in bringing cases seeking damages for personal injury and part time McDonald workers.

As far a Hegel goes. No matter where their product is manufactured it sounds pretty good. I can't say as much for its industrial design.

As I research brands to carry, I look under the covers - sort of speak. I was unaware of the Made in China for Hegel, but my experiences have been all positive. In fact, the H4SE is supposed to be a real sleeper in the line up.

I would hazard a guess that a high end Chinese designer like Line Magnetic would be better able to control the quality of their Chinese manufacturing resources than would Hegel. Regarding whether Hegel being manufactured in China is a negative, let's ask it another way. Would a clear label stating Made in Norway be a positive?

My Lumin is designed and manufactured in China, and it seems fine My Aerial Acoustics 7T cabinets are made in Cihina, but the speaker is assembled here. In general I do not have a problem with made in China, but I have more respect for Pass, Magico, Shunyata, and others building products here, and paying living wages to their employees.

However until China stops government run hacking of American businesses, stops their rampant pollution, stops exporting poisoned baby powder and pet food, stops blowing up industrial areas by storing volatile chemicals, stops imprisioning political dissenters, stops censoring the Internet, and etc., etc., etc. I have no problem with trade sanctions against them, and forbidding the export of jobs to China.

Originally Posted by jap

I'm more concerned about products made in Poland.

What do you mean ?

Originally Posted by jap

I'm more concerned about products made in Poland.

LOL. All the owners have couple of fire extinguishers beside our gear just to be safe

China is a big place their are Companies doing it right and making good products. Many others copying using cheap parts and that see nothing wrong with that.

I have been to China every year since 1999 doing business their is not easy but their are Companies that can and do great work. Made in Germany or USA does not always mean great work.

Hating China is popular but not right just the way people are . A product should be judged on its own not where it was made. Buy good quality and service in the best sounding gear you like it is that simple. Hate who ever you like but it is a waste of time hating.

Chappypie China Time.... I often wonder about the underlying Chinese agenda.

From dairy farm verticals on Australian soil to a $500 million Chinese cultural theme park with a tax free religious place of worship, $1m investment incentive for an Australian immigration family Visa and 1000 jobs to anyone with a 457 visa for the project. Is this the future of FTA?

Chappypie China Theme Park hits first major stumbling block - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Yes I do employ a Chinese-Australian resident. Yes we do enjoy Chinese food, and yes Hong Kong is an interesting place to visit. But, when it comes to Made in China, particularly HiFi where counterfeit is culturally endemic, I am sceptical.

It's a world economy. We have American cars made in Mexico. We have German and Japanese cars made in America.
Lots of goods are designed one place and made in another. It all comes down to the actual execution of the manufacturing process.
I've owned and still own Classe gear, it's been nothing short of first class all the way.

It's becoming a moral/ethical issue.

Originally Posted by mep

It's becoming a moral/ethical issue.

only for those that make it an issue

Lets hope China doesn't start counterfeiting Dynaudio parts

Originally Posted by Shadowfax

Lets hope China doesn't start counterfeiting Dynaudio parts

Do you think that Dynaudio will ever be looked at the same as they were prior to the Chinese taking over?

Originally Posted by mep

Do you think that Dynaudio will ever be looked at the same as they were prior to the Chinese taking over?

Unfortunately, no matter what they have told the Audio Community, NO

I think the bottom line is that the best companies who have outsourced their manufacturing to China have their own management team in place in China. The export everything they need to assemble the electronics or speakers to China and they keep a close eye on the Chinese people who are doing the assembling and they perform all of the QC. In other words, they don't just email a copy of their drawings and build of material from their home countries and cross their fingers and hope what gets shipped is close to what they expected. The 'good' companies are strictly using the Chinese for cheap labor.

You mark my words, if this hasn't already happened, it will happen soon enough:When people sell their Dynaudio speakers that were manufactured before the Chinese took ownership, they will clearly state that in their ad. The problem is future support. How long will it be before the Dynaudio drivers will no longer be the same quality they were before the Chinese took over? I won't be surprised if the value of all Dyanaudio speakers declines because of the Chinese ownership.

I wonder what is going to happen when the world runs out of cheap labor to exploit in far off exotic lands? The working conditions in China are terrible for those who work in factories. In case anyone has missed it, the factory where Apple products are assembled have catch nets outside the windows to catch those who try and commit suicide because there were so many suicides. And they aren't the only factory in China with catch nets. I thought it was highly ironic that in the first wave of outsourcing, all the American companies were looking to Mexico as a source of cheap labor. We share a large border with Mexico which means trucking raw materials and finished products between the two countries is fairly cost effective. That arrangement worked for awhile, but then all of a sudden it became cheaper to outsource the jobs to China even though they are an ocean away and the cost of shipping was dramatically different. So as cheap as the Mexican labor was, they couldn't begin to compete with Chinese labor costs even though the shipping costs are way higher. How pathetic is that?

Depending on the product there are cheaper places to manufacture than China. Cheap labor will be around for some time. Remember by mid-century India's population will be greater than China's.

As I noted earlier you can find examples of terrible working conditions in China yet in many operations with ties to US, European or Japanese firms you couldn't tell the difference in a plant in China from one in the US or Germany. The same standards and working conditions are applied across the board.

The environmental standards in some areas are more stringent in China or Mexico than in Texas. I am not so naive to believe than some Chinese companies get away with not having to meet those standards when Joint Venture operations are.

On one board people bitch about cheap China product and labour rates working conditions. On the next board the same guys are bitching about the high cost of audio products from pick any country USA Germany and swiss .

The product can be built any where by any person of any colour or nationality if they have the skill and the right parts and gear to do it with.

Going to China looking only for the lowest price will not get you a good product . Pay a fare price and you will get good people doing a good job.

The pay rate is low in China compared to USA or others but their are good things from China. It is not a land of rip offs cheap junk and dishonest people that poor and stupid people build. Their is plenty of stupid right here at home along with dishonest with lots of rip offs to boot.

Lots of good people in China doing good work with out a WHITE GUY in site. If a product is heavy on labour cheaper labour will have a edge.

This is what is called a RANT here in Canada. If I find a builder doing a great product i want or need I am not going to pass it by because he or she is Asian .

Some of you are starting to sound like the KKK

Originally Posted by Garth

Some of you are starting to sound like the KKK

Garth.......What? .

Ok your right that was too much too far I am sorry.

Just to refresh the focus, Mike's original question was, does "Made in China" bother you or is it a case of "who cares? I'm getting a great product at a great price!"?

Originally Posted by Double-D

Just to refresh the focus, Mike's original question was, does "Made in China" bother you or is it a case of "who cares? I'm getting a great product at a great price!"?

True. I don't think anyone will complain about getting a great product at a great price. However, it is possible the circumstances providing that great price might present a moral dilemma. For example, stolen gear is usually available at a great price. Not the same, you say. Yes and no.

I personally don't care. I think their products are excellent.

Originally Posted by JackD201

I personally don't care. I think their products are excellent.

I dont care either...........however after hearing 2 of their Int Amps and their CDP and their H20 Amp......the brand is not my cup of tea......I found nothing out of the ordinary about Hegel's sound and thus Hegel reminded me of the likes of Cambridge Audio and how that brand Int Amps and Power Amps sound.......

Originally Posted by Mike

[…] I know Hegel owners are very happy with their products, but I'm curious, as someone who does not own a Hegel product and might be shopping for a new amp, new integrated, whatever, does "Made in China" bother you or is it a case of "who cares? I'm getting a great product at a great price!"?

Does made in China bother me? It depends but increasingly the answer is ‘No’. Having worked for a European audio company who manufactured its product in China I have seen first-hand how Chinese manufacture can benefit both shareholders and end customers.


The bottom line is that well managed companies who have outsourced their manufacturing to China have their own management team in place in China. Not only that, they also have their own parts sourcing and QA teams resident. Sensitive parts such as those containing proprietary technology are imported and securely stored and the whole operation is annually audited. While rising, China’s manufacturing costs are competitive as are their shipping costs to global locations.


The ‘depends’ qualification simply boils down to an understanding on whether the above paragraph holds water?


Of greater concern is the potential of misrepresentation. If you stamp Hegel, Oslo, Norway on the back of a product you must accept that some end customers will read that to mean manufacture in Norway.

I would feel more comfortable buying from a company that doesn't hide where its products are made. Assuming Chinese manufacture is true, Hegel would be well advised to change its back plating to read, ‘designed in Norway, manufactured in China’. Done properly there is no shame in that.

Originally Posted by volks

I dont care either...........however after hearing 2 of their Int Amps and their CDP and their H20 Amp......the brand is not my cup of tea......I found nothing out of the ordinary about Hegel's sound and thus Hegel reminded me of the likes of Cambridge Audio and how that brand Int Amps and Power Amps sound.......

You obviously haven't heard them in a good system.

Originally Posted by MDP

You obviously haven't heard them in a good system.

Yes I did and at different times with diff speakers/ gear, but my view/opinion still stands. YMMV of course, but that's what makes this hobby so great. We can all listen to the same gear and have diff opinions and still respect one another's view.

I can't think of two solid state amps in the same price range that have a more different sound than the Mc601's and Hegel H30 - and I've owned both. The Mc601's provide endless hours of extremely musical, fatigue free listening. The Hegel is more of your "Euro" sound. Clean, precise, balanced, yet still musical. Both are awesome and I would love to own them both again!

Originally Posted by Garth

The pay rate is low in China compared to USA or others but their are good things from China. It is not a land of rip offs cheap junk and dishonest people that poor and stupid people build. Their is plenty of stupid right here at home along with dishonest with lots of rip offs to boot.

I don't know what your job function is in China, but I hope it's not teaching English. "Their is plenty of stupid people right here at home" is actually pretty funny. The proper word in this context is 'there' and the next word for proper grammar would be 'are' and not 'is.'

Originally Posted by Garth

Lots of good people in China doing good work with out a WHITE GUY in site. If a product is heavy on labour cheaper labour will have a edge.

Now there is a profound statement Mr. Obvious.

Originally Posted by Garth

Some of you are starting to sound like the KKK

No, some of us are tired of the Chinese hacking into every government and corporate computer and stealing our technology and our personal identity information. I don't know if you read the news or not, but the problem has reached epidemic proportions. In case you missed the lastest news flash, the Chinese have hacked the OPM network and have stolen the personal information for over 20 million government/DoD employees (as well as contractors who work for the government) and their security clearance investigation files. So yeah, a 'few' people are pissed off right now.

Originally Posted by mep

I don't know what your job function is in China, but I hope it's not teaching English. "Their is plenty of stupid people right here at home" is actually pretty funny. The proper word in this context is 'there' and the next word for proper grammar would be 'are' and not 'i





Now there is a profound statement Mr. Obvious.



No, some of us are tired of the Chinese hacking into every government and corporate computer and stealing our technology and our personal identity information. I don't know if you read the news or not, but the problem has reached epidemic proportions. In case you missed the lastest news flash, the Chinese have hacked the OPM network and have stolen the personal information for over 20 million government/DoD employees (as well as contractors who work for the government) and their security clearance investigation files. So yeah, a 'few' people are pissed off right now.

Oh good the grammar police are back.

And the USA never spied on anyone right

I like China so shoot me